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Nareth Mordonis
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Posted - 2008.07.15 01:30:00 -
[1]
Alright I have been trying to figure this out for a while. Fall off is the point where you have under a 50% chance to hit a target or so I have heard. So where exactly is fall off?
Is fall off range the set number based on the weapon meaning if it says 8km fall off that is it? Or is it optimal range plus fall off so if your optimal range is 3km you add that to the 8km and the fall off is actually 11km?
Also how do you determine where the point that you should start shooting at is? The point where you have above a 0% chance? Does fall off work both ways meaning if you have an optimal of 25km and a fall off of 10km does it mean that your chances are reduced under 15km as much as over 35km assuming that fall off is optimal plus fall off?
Lastly, why is it that you can't hit something at 0km?
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Forum Guy
Forum Guys
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Posted - 2008.07.15 01:35:00 -
[2]
Let's try and make this simpler:
Gun A has an optimal range of 10km. This is the range where it has the highest chance of hitting something.
Gun A has a falloff of 5km. This is the deviation allowed from the optimal where it's still likely to hit something.
Thus, Gun A has a reasonable chance of hitting anywhere from 5 to 15km, but the best odds at 10km.
The point you "should" start shooting is more complicated than that, as there are other factors that affect your odds of hitting - transversal, sig radius, et cetera ad infinitum. This is a "learn from practice" type of thing, honestly.
The 0km question - it actually is possible to get an optimal that's <1km, but at that range any movement at all means the transversal is HUGE, and thus nearly impossible to hit.
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Don't make me write you a citation... |
Kahega Amielden
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Posted - 2008.07.15 03:00:00 -
[3]
Optimal PLUS falloff is the range where you have a 50% chance to hit. Optimal range and under is where the range penalty ends...as such, anything under optimal range has a 100% hit chance.
...BASE hit chance, I should say. Beyond that, you can still miss because of high transversal velocity (He's going around you faster than your turrets can track) or low signature radius (bigger guns miss smaller ships)
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Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.15 03:16:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Optimal PLUS falloff is the range where you have a 50% chance to hit. Optimal range and under is where the range penalty ends...as such, anything under optimal range has a 100% hit chance.
...BASE hit chance, I should say. Beyond that, you can still miss because of high transversal velocity (He's going around you faster than your turrets can track) or low signature radius (bigger guns miss smaller ships)
Correct.
If both you and the target are stationary, you can hit anything from 1m to Optimal for 100% accuracy.
You can hit out to Optimal + Fall Off with 50% accuracy.
At Optimal + 2xFall Off you chance to hit is almost none.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.15 04:04:00 -
[5]
Your chance to hit is 50% at optimal + falloff and reduces to pretty much 0% at optimal + 2xfalloff.
So if something's approaching you (or you're approaching it), you can start firing at optimal + 2xfalloff to get a few hits in before they get into proper range. Anything fired before they reach optimal + 2xfalloff is useless.
______________________
Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Nareth Mordonis
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Posted - 2008.07.15 06:05:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Nareth Mordonis on 15/07/2008 06:06:25
Thank you for the help everyone. So the chance to hit is an actual penalty your guns recieve once going beyond optimal scales to 50% once you hit optimal plus fall off, am I correct? Anything closer than optimal though is a 100% chance (no penalty), assuming you can track it? Or is it only 100% no penalty up to optimal minus fall off? Or even does it scale the opisite way to 50% chance at optimal minus fall off as it does with optimal plus fall off?
P.S. thank you for the links, but that math hurt my head.
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F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.15 06:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Forum Guy
Let's try and make this simpler:
Gun A has an optimal range of 10km. This is the range where it has the highest chance of hitting something.
Gun A has a falloff of 5km. This is the deviation allowed from the optimal where it's still likely to hit something.
Thus, Gun A has a reasonable chance of hitting anywhere from 5 to 15km, but the best odds at 10km.
Not true at all. Optimal + Falloff is the only thing that matters. Anything under Optimal depends solely on tracking and sig size.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba
Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero!  /me bows
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.15 06:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nareth Mordonis
Edited by: Nareth Mordonis on 15/07/2008 06:06:25
Thank you for the help everyone. So the chance to hit is an actual penalty your guns recieve once going beyond optimal scales to 50% once you hit optimal plus fall off, am I correct? Anything closer than optimal though is a 100% chance (no penalty), assuming you can track it? Or is it only 100% no penalty up to optimal minus fall off? Or even does it scale the opisite way to 50% chance at optimal minus fall off as it does with optimal plus fall off?
P.S. thank you for the links, but that math hurt my head.
At 1m, 50% of optimal, optimal or anywhere in between, the chance of a hit is the same - assuming that both are stationary relative to each other. i.e at ranges below optimal, tracking and sig radius affect the chance of a hit, but distance to the target has no effect (unless as pointed out earlier, the range is exactly zero).
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Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
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GM Zhainius
Amarr
Game Masters
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Posted - 2008.07.15 10:06:00 -
[9]
You can find information on this in the tracking guide as well: http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g61_5.asp
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GM Zhainius
EVE Online Customer Support
CCP Games |
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Marine HK4861
Caldari
Radical Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nareth Mordonis
So the chance to hit is an actual penalty your guns recieve once going beyond optimal scales to 50% once you hit optimal plus fall off, am I correct?
Further to previous answers, from Optimal range to Optimal+Fall off, the chance to hit does not scale linearly.
Assuming that you are both stationary, at Optimal, you'll have a 100% chance to hit the target. At Optimal+Falloff, you'll have a 50% chance to hit.
At Optimal+half Falloff, you'll have a 85% chance to hit.
The tracking guide Zhainius linked to shows this on the first page.
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Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.15 14:44:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Matalino on 15/07/2008 14:44:38
Originally by: Nareth Mordonis
Anything closer than optimal though is a 100% chance (no penalty), assuming you can track it?
This guide (which has been linked a few times) will show you how tracking works.
However, the way that guide is worded, it might give you the false impression that tracking is a yes/no sort of thing.
It is not: tracking can vary greatly, and you will rarely actually hit for 100%.
When both of you are stationary, you will hit for 100%, otherwise you're likely to miss atleast some of the time.
The next easiest tracking reference is that if your targets signature matches your gun's resolution and your targets angular velocity matches your guns tracking you have a 50% chance to hit.
If your target is twice as big as your gun's resolution, he can be moving twice as fast and you will still hit him 50%. Likewise, if your target is halve the size of your gun's resolution, he would need to be moving half the speed for your guns to track for 50%.
The drop off away from 50% is pretty fast going down, but tappers off going up towards 100%. If your target is moving twice as fast as you can track, you will hit him only 6.25% of the time. However, if the target is moving half as fast as you can track, you will hit him 84% of the time. Slow him down to a quarter of your guns tracking speed and you will hit him 96% of the time.
Go back to the guide above, and play around with the last page as it will graph your chance to hit depending on how fast you are oribiting your target.
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Temugen
Obsessive Compulsive Destruction
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.07.15 15:01:00 -
[12]
And if i could make things even more complicated.
Dont forget that the type of gun you're using makes a difference in the hit chance withing the optimal or fall off range.
For instance. Read the description for hybrid rail guns "cannot use onboard tracking so has less accuracy from optimal throughout fall off.
Where projectiles for instance, actually work very well from optimal throughout fall off.
Check here for more Recruiting Info.
JUMBO |
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.15 15:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Temugen
For instance. Read the description for hybrid rail guns "cannot use onboard tracking so has less accuracy from optimal throughout fall off.
That is just flavor text and doesn't actually mean anything.
It is only a reference to the effective attributes of rails. Compare the ratio of optimal to fall off ranges for Rails Guns with the optimal to fall off ranges for Artillery Cannons and you will see that Projectiles have relatively long fall off ranges, but shorter optimal ranges.
There is no difference in how fall off works for the different types of turrets. There are only differences in what their relative attributes are.
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Nareth Mordonis
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Posted - 2008.07.15 17:05:00 -
[14]
Thank you all for the information :) The guide was helpful though the math to it takes me a bit to sit down and understand. More or less it helps me to roughly figure out when to start shooting depending on what I am shooting at :)
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