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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.24 20:35:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shevar on 24/05/2004 20:49:07
So basicly the chance of winning isk out of a ticket has been greatly lowered? Since alot more isk has been flown into the big drawing thingies and not everything is coming out of it... So basicly we have a ALOT smaller chance/isk ratio in reality then what was promised us?
Sorry but its still just plain ****ty.
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.24 20:50:00 -
[2]
JarJar your point being? That was kinda what was expected, if they would devide it up to 5 winners then that could be understood but not paying out all isk in the pot is just plain cheesy and not what was promised...
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.24 21:03:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: NAFnist
Originally by: Shevar
Edited by: Shevar on 24/05/2004 20:49:07
So basicly the chance of winning isk out of a ticket has been greatly lowered? Since alot more isk has been flown into the big drawing thingies and not everything is coming out of it... So basicly we have a ALOT smaller chance/isk ratio in reality then what was promised us?
This acctually gives everyone the same chance of winning (presuming everyone buys for 5 mill)
I think it's fair.
Ehh yeah thats right but not all isk gotten through the ticket sales will be payed out, so the chance*isk is alot lower then paying out all isk gotten through the lottery... And thats kinda my point...
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.24 21:11:00 -
[4]
Quote:
If you are ok with the prize money beeing split up, then I dont understand why you are so upset. That excactly what we have done.
AND we are trying to ensure that you will have more chances at a *huge* prize in comming rounds as well.
By doing it the way we are, people will hopefulyl continue to buy *a lot* of tickets (because we can guarantee HGUE prizes), and thus ensure even furhter HUGE prizes, etc etc.
If we are really lucky - We can keep this going forever
I dont think so, but we can at least keep it going for quite some time longer, than if we simply paid out everything in round 28, and woudl have to 'start at scratch' with round 29.
So im together with ~4000 others are able of winning in all future rounds already? While tickets used to buy at later stages will be the same? Holy crap, i already feel sorry with the people organizing that  .
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.24 22:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: TornSoul
Quote:
your only giving me the chance to win part of 2bill
If that part is 1 billion (1st prize) regardless of the pot size, what excactly is it then you are not involved in?
In the 2 billion isk that is missing? You buy tickets for a small chance in a pot that is depending on the ammount of people that enter and the ammount of tickets they buy, when your chance of winning gets lower the chance of your tickets not winning gets bigger (ie. if you got 2 people entering with both 10k tickets you got a 50% of winning 2 million isk, with 3 people your chance of winning goes down by 17% but the price pot increases with 33%), now what you have proposed is suddenly changing the fundemental rules BIG have used in the past to winning a set ammount, while having ALOT of isk from 1 pot from which people assumed it would have been devided amongst them through pure chance.
Now the problem with this is basicly really simple, i've bought tickets to have a chance at winning the isk in the pot (not even going into how its devided, by 10 or by 100 or with 1 prize, i would prefer using the method of 1 big price since that that where the orignal rules, but i wouldnt consider it a big problem if that that would be changed to ie. as many 1 billion prices as possible). But what happens is that i only get a chance of not even winning half the ammount of isk that is in the pot, and thats not what i paid for...
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 00:41:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Shevar on 25/05/2004 00:42:33
Originally by: tornsoul
So *nothing* has been taken away from anyone (as the prize is 'capped')
Yes there is, i wouldnt have had a problem with ie. 8 prize drawings of lower prices, as long as the total pot would be given out it would be cool with me. But since it has not you will take something away from us, basicly said if you choose not to pay out everything the chances become fubarred (the first way(s) isk would have been devided would mean a bigger total pot, either meaning a bigger prize or more prizes).
Also I'll most likely petition against it since the reason the imperial apoc was sponsored was basicly because BIG was not profitting. No matter how you put it, I wouldnt call being able to hold bigger lotteries the next 8 weeks with the money people put in to get the apoc and a shot at the pricemoney (which to me is kinda more interesting since the apoc would only collect dust in my hangar somewhere) something BIG isnt profitting from...
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 00:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Shevar on 25/05/2004 00:50:03
Originally by: sableye
I feel like you ripped me off now, I guess you seen that big amount of money and wanted to keep it, i don't blame you its a large amount of money, but I bought tickets for the full pot, I don't care how that pot is split it up the more prizes the merrier I just think all that pot should be used in round 28 like it originally said it would be.
They wouldnt want to keep it in corp or whatever, they want to use it to sponsor upcoming lotteries (for which you gotta buy seperate tickets, and they might start taking 15% adminstrative fees off the isk brought in from those lotteries through ticket sales). So its definatly not THAT ebil, the issue is that they shouldnt use the pot for upcoming lotteries because it was stated that it would be used for this lottery...
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 00:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: sableye
Yer I meant they are hopeing to generate large profits though off the back of the money, they are probably counting on taking in way more than 1.75 billion per lottery now (which is'nt hard to imagine given the pot) the excess each week will be effectivly thiers.
I might be naive or whatever but BIG is an honorable corp if they say they wont, they wont...
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 01:53:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Shevar on 25/05/2004 01:55:43
Originally by: TornSoul
Edited by: TornSoul on 25/05/2004 01:25:08
@Geller
Answer me this one question : How does this in any way change your chance of winning the first prize of 1 billion?
Because alot more tickets have been sold then that there should have been to get a 1.75b prizepot, so now chance winning/prize money spent is ALOT lower then it should be:
Current situation (assuming you sell tickets for 5 billion isk, since the drawing is still 2 weeks away i guess you can get another billion orso isk, also im not taking the fa/BIG contribution into account):
5 billion isk in pot means 5.000.000 tickets
1/5.000.000 * 5 billion = 1000 (the original ticket ammount)
while if you only give out 1.75 billion in isk prices:
1/5.000.000 (still same ammount of tickets sold) * 1.75 billion = 350
So the tickets for this round are under the old rules basicly only 350 isk each worth... If it was announced up front i wouldnt have considered much of a biggie (besides confirming with CCP if they consider BIG lottery so important for the gaming community that they should get the right to be able of charging 10% from future lotteries, and the extra advertisement this would generate)
(and yes you can calculate the % between the new and old tickets with 5/1.75*100=35%, but i guess the other one is easier to explain)
So basicly the chances (ammount of tickets) and the total prize money given out just totally dont add up anymore, so what BIG is giving the people joining this lotery is less chance at winning the current ammount of prize money given out.
Also as for the maths in gellars post they are correct, usually payout has been higher then was what put into the lottery so chances of winning a certain prize ammount where better then they oughta be. While this time your tickets "loose" 65% of their value (while before they where a few % more valuable)
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 02:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: tornsoul
You where never going to win the full pot by yourself (as ppl wanted it capped), instead you are given 2 extra chances at winning some of it.
It's a stretch, but you could compare this to beeing entered into 3 rounds of the lottery.... For the same amount of ISK....
I wouldnt have objected if the total pot would have been split up in 10 prizes, because that would not lower the worth of my tickets. Taking away from the total pot of prize money does increase my "risk" factor (cant really explain it well in english im afraid, but i take a risk to win prizes, risk/pot if the total ammount of isk that can be won is lowered and my risk (the chance of me winning anything is still x/5m (x being the number of prices given out))stays the same then the worth of a ticket is obviously lower).
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 02:23:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Shevar on 25/05/2004 02:27:49
Originally by: TornSoul
@Shevar
Ok so you are putting a value to each ticket, compared to the payout.
Fair enough - thats also a way of looking at it.
(Although this has zero to do with your chance of winning anything ofc - Just to put that straight).
So you're complaining that the more ppl enter the lottery, the 'less a ticket is worth' (because of the fixed prize).
Right?
Now where where you when ppl's tickets where 'worth more' than their value - Ie. the times when not enough tickets where sold to cover the minimum guranteed prize of 50M ISK. (the times where BIG had to pay from our own pocket to cover the prize)
This was also a cap on the prize ISK, although a minimum cap.
Noone complained then about the 'worth' of a ticket.
First off i would like to say that you guys have handled honorbly in the big lottery up till now and went through great lengths (and wasted quite some isk against it) to make it a success (also note BIG has gained an honorable reputation and all that sort of stuff because of it, so to say you guys got nothing out of it would be bullcrap(the big deal was a success because people trusted you guys and im sure the jovian thingie will become a success because people trust you).
But you CANNOT take somuch money just "away" from the lottery round, hell im sure nowhere was written that there was a maximum the pot is and im kinda certain CCP stated BIG would gain personally nothing outside holding this event. The way i look at it:
A:You guys gain alot more trust and stuff and have the possibility to start taking 10% from the lottery ticket sales (with fixed ammounts you can easaly do that once the lottery becomes self sustained). Doesnt appear like a small thing to me..
B:BIG lotteries in this way does not work because BIG lost alot of trust since they showed they can change lottery rules at any time (or there just isnt a market for it).
I cant think up any other ways what can happen, either way its bad since point A goes directly against the conditions that CCP gave you guys with getting that imperial apoc. And B well that would suck to because the lottery does add some spice to the game 
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 02:34:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Shevar on 25/05/2004 02:57:35
Originally by: tornsoul
And as such - As every ISK paid for tickets gets paid out again - The 'rate of return' is 100%.
For participants it would only be correct if everyone would buy exactly the same ammount of tickets each round and noone entering or leaving the coming lotteries (in which case we would have 5 billion total income every round and thus nullifies the reason to limit the ammount of isk spend  ).
And for you guys it would remain 0% untill you guys start taking the administrative fees you are allowed to start inning at any point. At which it would go up from 0% (you havent gotten 1 isk sofar while having spent on average 25 million? per round to getting the 50m isk bar) to above 100%.
If no adminstrative fees will be added later on (whats the point of noting that in the rules otherwise?) then it will remain 100% for the lottery. And it will drop after you start take admistrative fees, but really tbh this is totally irrelevant...
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 03:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Shevar on 25/05/2004 03:11:02
Quote:
And what excactly have we gained beyond that?
Possible goodwill which is really hard to get (ie. your lottery becomes even bigger then more people will know you as reputable which can be used greatly to everyones advantage (the deals you offer are good, and with the trust factor people are willing to invest into that)).
Second the POSSIBILTY of starting taking 10% administrative fees (if you didnt want to be associated with that then it shouldnt be in the rules, or even better specificly stated that at no time that will happen) from a hugely popular lottery set up with isk gotten through changing rules after people bought their tickets in your/(the BIG lottery in general as you see it (but since there are so many strong links between BIG lottery and BIG (well DUH) that thats not the case)) favor.
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 12:45:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Shevar on 25/05/2004 12:55:23
Anology time:
Is BIG interested in a deal where they pay up front for 10 cruisers and 10 bs's, the 10 cruisers are given after 2 weeks the 10 bs's are supposed to be given in 2 weeks after that. Now when you come and get the cruisers I say though luck dude, im gonna give you 4 bs's while ill use those 6 other bs's so my corp can mine a bit more in the following 2 weeks and thus be able of selling you even more battleships isnt that great?!?
If so please let me know I'll give you dozens of those deals
Also do you really believe ethically correct to use isk which was gained under the pretences of that it would all be devided in this lottery to be used as some kind of venture captial without any form of return for the investors?
Basicly if BIG wants these huge pots then thats cool with me, let them set it up find investors willing to invest alot of isk perhaps start adding the 10% adminstrative fees so you can set up a plan to have a return of investment etc. But to use money that you got to put into this pot for that purpose is really just plain theft/fraud whatever...
As to everyone saying there isnt a decrease in risk please do your maths again (in dutch its called a kosten-baten analyse, basicly the chances of winning anything become lower as more people enter but the prize money thats winnable goes up, thus thats fair if you take out prize money while the chance of winning is still alot lower and thus you take something away from me, and from the 4000 other lottery enterers (in this case devaluating the ticket price from the 1000 isk to 350 while still charging 1k isk))
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 19:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mrmuttley
Hooray at least one of the anti change people accepts this is a game.
Once more to put it into perspective. Rod Blaine (the Marquis of Crucis Court by any chance? ) Even if you have been ripped of how much have you been ripped off for? 1 mill? 2? 3million? If you petition the GMs everday thats gonna take you 15 minutes per time in which time you could go and run agent missions and make your money back no problem at all. On top of that it will help you relax a little by Killing a few Blood Raiders or who ever your local pirates are. please dont give the "its the principle" rubbish no its not thats the lamest cry in the book. your just annoyed that you now have almost no chance to win 1 billion/500m/ 250m rather than almost no chance to win 3.5 Billion. If thats the worst thing that happens to you this month then consider yourself lucky.
This IS a multi BILLION isk SCAM simple and sound, if i where to deduct 100 isk from every account in game it would be just as bad as robbing 1 guy for billions, since one should look at the total ammount being scammed not the ammount that people are personally being scammed for (note though the ammount of scammed people is insane, 4000 people and counting).
Also as i (and a bunch of others) said a dozen times orso in this thread it would have been exceptable to make BIG changes to the lottery and thus devide as many 1 billion isk prices as possible (it would be a BIG change, but since its a BIG lottery its no biggie, but not these FUNDEMENTAL changes that lowered EVERYONES tickets value for the next round by 65% without any form of refund) as long as it would have been devided in THIS round for which ALL tickets are egible NOT any future rounds for which we gotta buy new tickets.
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.25 20:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kragg Malak
I don't think it's a scam
Originally by: dictionary.com
scam
A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.
Originally by: dictionary.com
fraudulent
adj : intended to deceive; "deceitful advertising"; "fallacious testimony"; "smooth, shining, and deceitful as thin ice" S.T.Coleridge; "a fraudulent scheme to escape paying taxes" [syn: deceitful, fallacious]
Basicly they advertised under false pretences (thus deceitful advertised), not delivering what they promised thus its a scam.
(minor note though, it was not setup at the start as a scam though, it just turned out into one)
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.05.26 14:24:00 -
[17]
38x 100 mil is 3.8 bil, thus you still have a chance at the 3.8 bil pot. Heck most people got more then 40 tickits thus in theory you could have 1 really happy chap still winning the entire pot (note though the chance is really really really small)
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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