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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 10:26:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: ShardowRhino
The basis of the post is off. There is clearly more isk to be made mining in 0.0 then in highsec.
That's not the basis of the post – it's the fact that missions and ratting (especially anything involving dones) provides a better source of minerals than mining could ever hope to be. Miners are outmined by mission-runners who at the same time make a killing on bonuses, salvage and LP.
This detail also makes your comments about ignoring the mission loot pointless (at least in this context – I'm not going to argue whether or not you make more ISK by leaving stuff behind): what we're talking about here is running missions to mine. If your goal is to get minerals, leaving the source of those minerals behind isn't a good idea.
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You can go afk for whatever reasn and know your ship is going to still be there. You can't do that doing missions. Either your at the keyboard or your dead unless you leave the mission. THeres no afking a mission, I cant set up a BS and have it autokill things for 5minutes and come back and expect it to still be alive.
Uhm. Yes you can. Setting up a permatank for L4 missions isn't that hard (or, well… I don't know how it is for BS:es since I don't use them – maybe they suck at tanking). Depending on how the aggro of the mission works, it's entirely possible to pop in, drop some drones, and go do the dishes while the mission completes itself.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 15:36:00 -
[2]
So…
…change all NPC loot drops to named only, and tweak the material composition of that loot. It can't be produced anyway, so the composition can be completely nutty without being at odds (from a BP standpoint) with what the regular mods require.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 15:41:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Tippia on 22/07/2008 15:41:17
Originally by: Molly Missile
If there isn't any barrier besides buying the right ship and mods, how can you call that a PROFESSION?
By that logic, there are no professions in EVE.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 16:23:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tippia on 22/07/2008 16:24:34
Originally by: Molly Missile
I can't just skill up to L4 missions.
And even if an agent would allow me to run one, I'm not going to be as good at it as you are, Tippia.
L4 is just a progression – missioning (the "profession" you're talking about) has the same barrier of entry as mining. There is no "being good" at missions – just having the right equipment and the skills to maximise its effectiveness, just as mining. Missions are entirely scripted and all that is needed is to follow that script.
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A miner is as professional as those old ladies who used to sweep the sidewalks of Moscow under Communist rule. Anyone can pick up a broom, and on your 1000th day of sweeping, you'll be no cleverer or more efficient than you were on your 3rd day of sweeping sidewalks.
Interesting simile: in both instances, you (incorrectly) assume that experience doesn't matter; that there is no way of being more or less efficient.
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I think mission runners (generally) are far more clever and efficient at what they do on day 1,000 of mission running than on day 3.
As are miners. On their 1000th day, they'll have the most efficient mining spots bookmarked for each and every ore in the belt; they'll have well-placed cans with supplies; they'll know how to cut down on travel to maximise profits, and how to play the market.
On a mission-runner's 1000th day, he'll know the misson's eve-survival URL by heart… 
Jokes aside, suffice to say that, just as there are good and bad ways of doing missions, there are good and bad ways to mine.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 16:59:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Tippia on 22/07/2008 17:02:26
Originally by: Nito Musashi
takes what for missioning 6 8 months of grinding your reputation up, leveling your skills up, and collecting the gear and the ships to do level 4s and even longer to do them well
The reputation grind takes a couple of days. The skills to survive and out-DPS them takes about as long as getting into a Hulk and getting the refinery skills up to snuff. Beyond that, you're just improving on your margin by taking more skills to lvl V, and that goes for both groups. Quote:
and then when you get good at them and have the best agents unlocked then if you live in empire your stuck in laggy mission hubs where everyone goes for the good quality empire agents
Funnily enough, the "best" agents only take a day's worth of standings grind more, and quite a few of them are not in laggy mission hubs… Admittedly, you need to know where to look beforehand, so most ineperienced mission runners will be stuck with the obvious (and rather poor) choice of working for the various navies.
I guess it could be argued that this is where the experience Molly talks about comes in, but it is no different than a miner knowing which systems contain the best belts in close proximity to good trade routes and/or good refining stations.
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mining you got tons of options, worried about the "rampant" ganking? move a few jumps, move out of the crowded areas and quit whining.
Mission runners also have a ton of options. Worried about lag? Move out of the crowded areas.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 17:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nito Musashi
yes many mission runners work for navies because of the LP rewards ships blah blah and there is only one mid level agent in empire for each navy that is going to max your lp and payout for time invested.
True enough, but that also speaks against the supposed cleverness of those mission runners. Other corps in the same faction will offer you the exact same LP stores, and the exact same LP rewards – or even better, at times, since they sit in better systems (be it because the sec rating is lower or because there's less lag, i.e. faster mission turn-around).
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Ore respawns Mondays and Fridays. That means from Monday to Friday you have 4 days until respawn and 3 days from Friday to Monday. Each day that a asteroid does not go mined a little bit of ore is added into it, however if it is popped no ore is added until the next respawn and unfortunately the common practice in high sec is to pop the rock.
The reason this is common practice in high sec is because most asteroids respawn every day, not twice a week…
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Where do you mine then. Because during my time as a miner I mined in several regions in atleast 3 empires (gallente, amarr and khaind) and towards the end practiced nomadic mining (as soon as a system feel below a certain yeld I moved one) and I can tell you I never -once- saw a belt respawn save on those two days. Because of where I live and at the time I would mine shortly after the servers came back up so it would be impossible for those belts to be mined out litterally minutes after the server came on.
Caldari space.
Also, since you use the passive tense, how long ago was it you last did any mining?
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
If Caldari belts respawn every day then CCP has some splainin' to do, cause every belt I've ever mined (including the one I'm sitting in right now) has only respawned on monday and friday. For instance, I sucked all the scordite out of this one yesterday and I sure don't see any here today.
Well, I guess I just have to go out and suck up a belt and report back tomorrow
All I know is that my bookmarks showing how many high-yield asteroids are close to that spot have never had any less than the "correct" number of roids close to them right after downtime…
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 21:54:00 -
[10]
…also, if I you want to turn LP into ISK, faction frigs isn't exactly the best way to go. Their conversion rate is apallingly low, and if you look around (and have a bit of patience), you can quite easily get ten times the cash.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 23:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: KillerOfMen
4. Move players that are in an NPC corp into a new NPC corp that can be wardecced by other players after 6 months. Real miners can go to valid player corps while isk farmers and macroers can be targeted by players. Obviously, some people would be unhappy with this fix, but you have to agree that implementing it would help legitimate miners, most of whom are in player corps anyway.
…and what does this have to do with the issue at hand?
But sure, that's a good idea if also we make all player corps self-invite at the same time (i.e. joining a corp is up to the member – the corp has no control over who can join and leave).
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.23 03:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Draconyx
A Hulk should be the undisputed mineral gather in the game period.
(If any other profession (example missioning / ratting) brings in more , as much, or even close then they need some adjusting.
Now this does NOT mean reducing the other professions ISK per hour count.
Just get rid of there MINERALS PER HOUR COUNT.
QFFT.
Also:
Originally by: Empyre
i just ran an average level 4 mission. everything was looted, salvaged and sold within 10% of market average, except a few salvaged shown in screen shots.
Mission: The Assault (Guristas) - Two stages
Time to Run: 1 Hour
Total Final Profit: 22,588,760.14 isk
[…]
So no more tall stories about mission runners swimming in endless seas of isk coins and building fleets of capitals by themselves from the work of a single week.
22.5mil/h on average is pretty much equivalent to "swimming in endless seas of isk coins" when compared to mining… and there's still the problem of you acquiring a crapton of minerals (in useful proportions at that) on top of the standard mission rewards.
You illustrate the problem perfectly.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.23 04:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Draconyx
Perhaps you are the one that should follow your own advise as your response is not constructive. And well I would expect from a 10 year old
And you obviously have no idea what it actually means to mine for a living.
Why don't you try again.
You don't know what QFFT means, do you? 
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.23 07:00:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Tippia on 23/07/2008 07:00:40
<ot objection>
Originally by: Empyre
highly doubting the validity of this statement. perma-tank is hard, in and of itself. and the thought of walking away in a L4 and still having your ship when you get back with even half-stage agro in most missions is laughable. my golem still gets its tank pushed with 10k+ shields and over 80% resists, over 90% in some configurations like those for angels.
i'd like to see the 6 month character that can afk a L4 thats not something like Duo of Death with a couple BS, a couple frigs and a couple npc sentries.
I don't doubt it for a second, mainly because it describes my situation perfectly.
This toon is a little over 7 months old. The first four of those were spent getting into a Hulk (including learning skills to speed things up), and the last month or so has been spent getting the various T2 frig skills. That leaves three months that have been spent on learning the skills required for proper mission fits. At this point, I have no problem permatanking L4s, nor do I have problem AFK:ing them (but that depends on the drone aggro).
Granted, one of the reasons I don't have any problems is because I exclusively use battlecruisers for L4s. Their smaller sig radii (= less damage), higer speeds (= speed-tank lite against BS npcs), and 1000:ish DPS tanks lets them take on just about anything L4s have to offer.
…oh, and and those few months have allowed for enough time to fit both shield and armour tanks at useful levels. No, the skills aren't maxed out, but they don't need to be to survive L4s.
</ot objection>
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.23 12:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Quelque Chose
If Caldari belts respawn every day then CCP has some splainin' to do, cause every belt I've ever mined (including the one I'm sitting in right now) has only respawned on monday and friday. For instance, I sucked all the scordite out of this one yesterday and I sure don't see any here today.
Well, I guess I just have to go out and suck up a belt and report back tomorrow
…well, the results are in: it is neither monday nor friday, and the belt I completely stripped yesterday is back, as are all the veldspar roids I selectively cleaned out from a different belt to see if there was any difference between nuking the belt in its entirety and nuking just one particular type.
That said, I have heard of the monday/friday respawns before, but always in connection with the rarer low/nullsec ores…
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.24 05:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Empyre
i still have a hard time believing you can afk tank ANY level 4 in a BC. i've been running these things for years.
My question, then, is what have you been running them in? If you don't have much experience of BCs, chances are you're not quite familiar with how insane their tanks can be (and I'm not trying to be mean to you here). A T2-fitted passive Myrm has a stronger tank than a faction-fitted CNR. The classic PST Drake is even stronger.
My dual-rep Myrm puts up a weaker tank (only 700DPS or so against any given damage combination), but has 60% the sig radius of a battleship, so their large weapons do less damage against it, and it can essentially nullify one BS worth of damage by orbiting faster than they can track it (call it a speed tank, if you like).
The only problem a well-set up BC faces in L4s is that it has a low damage output, so things take a little longer (and if you're in, say, a Harbinger, even that downside is arguable).
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