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BlackMail
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Posted - 2004.05.27 00:37:00 -
[1]
Now I mine in 0.0 right now and it doesn't really affect me that much but I am still angered by people who are continually telling people who complain about losing ore to thieves simply to "use secure cans."
At one point, when I did most of my mining in empire space, I was using secure cans, however, they got nerfed!!! Hardcore!!! Perhaps it has changed back to the way it was and I've just not had the opportunity to find out, but you could no longer anchor them within 5km from any other anchored object. This means that if you wanted to use only secures, and have enough giant secures (the only one's worth using if you're mining in anything better than a frigate so don't give me lip about mining battleships cause even cruisers basically need giants) to last more than 30 minutes you would have them so far apart that they had grown completely ridiculous to use for mining!
Perhaps ccp wanted to make it easier for the ore thieves. If so I would like a statement from them on this one. But otherwise they just completely made it irrelevant to use them for any sort of mining operations.
I think that ore thieving is a perfectly good profession to go into in eve if you want to be the complete scum of the earth but it's crazy to me to so completely nerf an already expensive way of combatting them.
Any comments are welcome.
/me grabs fire extinguisher 
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Serge Tahlon
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Posted - 2004.05.27 00:49:00 -
[2]
lets face it , secure cans are just a cheap way to extend your cargo hold.
seriously though. other than in 0.0 where a hauler load is acctually worth money, why bother with secure cans in empire. cant even anchor them in higher than 0.8 as if strip miners would use cans anyway.
~~ signatures ?! all they do is wasteing space... ~~ |
Mystikos
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Posted - 2004.05.27 01:59:00 -
[3]
Mining was originally designed where you had to mine into your hold, then when it got full, return to station.
It's supposed to promote teamwork, by offering an incentive to bring along a friend in an Indy to haul for you.
Think about this... if regular containers were protected from ore "thieves," how long would it be until every field in the game was mined dry, and they were all littered with full canisters?
The simple fact is, jetcan mining was not intended to be a valid tactic (much like instajumps). However, people have gotten so used to the ability that any attempt to reduce or eliminate this tactic is met with cries of "Nerf!"
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BlackMail
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Posted - 2004.05.27 02:10:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Mystikos
Mining was originally designed where you had to mine into your hold, then when it got full, return to station.
It's supposed to promote teamwork, by offering an incentive to bring along a friend in an Indy to haul for you.
Think about this... if regular containers were protected from ore "thieves," how long would it be until every field in the game was mined dry, and they were all littered with full canisters?
The simple fact is, jetcan mining was not intended to be a valid tactic (much like instajumps). However, people have gotten so used to the ability that any attempt to reduce or eliminate this tactic is met with cries of "Nerf!"
Well that would be great if I had said that jet cans should be completely secure, but I didn't!
My problem is with people simply saying "use secure cans" when people complain about ore thieves. It was already an expensive way to go, and logisitically speaking was quite a pain in the rear also. Then they nerfed secures and people still use that line, "use secures". Before I pretty much expected that sooner or later someone would come along and take my ore if I wasn't using secures. Now it's pretty much impossible to use them because of the space "needed" between them. I guess I didn't state my question well enough in my original post, and that question is "Why are you still saying that when it is practically impossible to use secure cans for mining in anything other than a frigate now that the distance rule for anchoring is in affect?"
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Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2004.05.27 02:42:00 -
[5]
If you are mining enough to need to mine into a can then you do not need to be in a high sec system. Move to a .7 anchor some cans and mine to your hearts content.
The 5 km thing is not a big deal. Just set your cans up correctly and you will not miss a beat.
______________
Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2004.05.27 02:55:00 -
[6]
The only real problem with secure cans is the small volume compared to jet cans. Even then, using one giant secure and a good hauling team will keep you secure.
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Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2004.05.27 02:55:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Righteous Fury on 27/05/2004 02:58:01
I'm just so popular I had to post twice.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.27 05:02:00 -
[8]
What exactly is the question?
Mining is supposed to be done this way;
Mine -> Cargo hold full -> Dock/empty -> repeat.
When you jetmine, you take the risk.
Dont expect everything to be super-easy high-reward ffs 
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Mystikos
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Posted - 2004.05.27 05:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Viceroy
What exactly is the question?
Mining is supposed to be done this way;
Mine -> Cargo hold full -> Dock/empty -> repeat.
When you jetmine, you take the risk.
Dont expect everything to be super-easy high-reward ffs
/emote applauds.
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Arnt
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Posted - 2004.05.27 08:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Viceroy
Mining is supposed to be done this way;
Mine -> Cargo hold full -> Dock/empty -> repeat.
You forgot : do this until trial expires, uninstall eve.
Ore thieves only harm newbies. A lot of them are on trial.
"it's like that and shut up" is what you are saying?
Then answer this : are people on trial supposed to sign up or not?
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.05.27 08:54:00 -
[11]
I don't get all this about not being able to anchor them close together being a problem; you only need one. Even an apocalypse with 10 harvesters can't fill a giant secure can in one go; and your mate with the indy can keep emptying it.
You don't have a mate with an indy? Then find one - this is a multi-player game, I seem to recall reading somewhere - or, just accept the fact that, since this IS a multi-player game, playing as a solo effort means you can't be as effective.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.05.27 08:54:00 -
[12]
I mined in to secure cans just a few weeks ago and it worked out fine. If I can do than surely everyone else can do it because I must be one of the worst miner in EVE.
__________
Capacitor research |
Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.05.27 09:38:00 -
[13]
The term "ore thief" has always confused me - anyone who JETTISONS something is saying "I don't want this rubbish cluttering up my hold", so it is free for the taking. Anyone who advises n00bs otherwise is plain wrong and they are responsible for "scaring away" the n00bs at the end of their trial. Teach them to mine properly, or make them aware of the risks of this unsupported mining method.
I am not an "ore thief" but I have no sympathy for the victims of this - if you want the ore, don't JETTISON it! It's like throwing money into the dustbin then running after the dustbin truck accusing them of stealing your money!!!
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meowcat
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Posted - 2004.05.27 09:49:00 -
[14]
... i was just thinking to myself that there hasn't been a thread about jet-can mining for, oooh, at least 6 hours, and then *poof* one appears ...
~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~
yeah but no but yeah but no but |
Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.05.27 10:27:00 -
[15]
The only thing worse than jetcan-mining is the evil macro-mining! DIE DIE DIE!!! (After I nick all your ore)
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Lord Armagon
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Posted - 2004.05.27 10:39:00 -
[16]
i have a feeling you are complaining becouse you think that a secure can should have unlimited cargo hold, and be possible to use from unlimited range. ??
This would meen you are asking or complaining becouse you think that mining is to hard work ?
You dont have to do it the slow way , you can do it the faster way by jetison but then there is a risk of ore teft. is this so bad ?
Mining is already to profitable and to litle risk as it is.
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.05.27 10:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Arnt
Originally by: Viceroy
Mining is supposed to be done this way;
Mine -> Cargo hold full -> Dock/empty -> repeat.
You forgot : do this until trial expires, uninstall eve.
Ore thieves only harm newbies. A lot of them are on trial.
"it's like that and shut up" is what you are saying?
Then answer this : are people on trial supposed to sign up or not?
When i wes newb i dont remeber i mined to can
i did it the dock unload mine dock unload style
and i bet many real newbs do it that way also
(and FFS - what u can still from newb? - isint Apoch strip miner beter targer ?)
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Esab
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Posted - 2004.05.27 11:24:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Esab on 27/05/2004 11:25:37
Secure cans work.. We had a lot of problems with ore thieves (Which resulted in two of us losing our cruisers but thats another story). It just takes a little time to set up correctly thats all. Two of us will go out to the belt ..one in a cruiser or frigate and one in an indy with 3 cans. The Indy waits it out whilst the frigate/cruiser locates a good position for each can and sets up bookmarks for them. Once anchored and bookmarked you have several secures in a line that are ready for using.This way we can keep several guys mining all night with just one indy doing the hauling and not a chance of losing any to ore thieves.
WE STAND ALONE TOGETHERÖ |
Dark Messiah
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Posted - 2004.05.27 11:41:00 -
[19]
Just some how please please give us the right to blow the ******* up, i hate people taking my ore that has taken me time to collect.
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Burga Galti
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Posted - 2004.05.27 11:55:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Burga Galti on 27/05/2004 11:59:50
Edited by: Burga Galti on 27/05/2004 11:59:32
Edited by: Burga Galti on 27/05/2004 11:58:44
Originally by: BlackMail
Perhaps it has changed back to the way it was and I've just not had the opportunity to find out, but you could no longer anchor them within 5km from any other anchored object .... to last more than 30 minutes you would have them so far apart that they had grown completely ridiculous to use for mining!
FFS, do I have to draw you a diagram? Okay okay, i did already.
Secure Can Layout Guide for Noobs & Carebears
The brown thing in the middle is your roid, the blue boxes are your giant cans. When one can fills you fly on to the next one. Your always in range of your roid and to travel between them will take less than a minute.
Now please, stop moaning about ore thiefs!
edit: PS, bad day... have a god awful exam in 2 hours.
Tales from the EVE Cluster |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.05.27 11:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dark Messiah
Just some how please please give us the right to blow the *edited* up, i hate people taking my ore that has taken me time to collect.
If you value so highly this ore that has taken you time to collect ... WHY DID YOU THROW IT AWAY?
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Ryctor
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Posted - 2004.05.27 13:13:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Ore thieves only harm newbies. A lot of them are on trial
I think I can speak for myself, Vog, and Tenaj that we rarely take from the newer members of this game. I usually hit up those in cruisers or Apoc strip miners. So dont try and make me out into a monster
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hatchette
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Posted - 2004.05.27 13:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
If you value so highly this ore that has taken you time to collect ... WHY DID YOU THROW IT AWAY?
You don't throw it away... it's like sitting on bench in park.. and putting your precious new notebook next to you. Did you throw it away? No!
In RL.. if you lose your wallet and if someone finds and take it, he's a thief, unless he can prove that you threw it out on purpose, because you didn't need it anymore.
Anyway.. there are so many problems with mining into secure cans...
I hope devs enable Colossal Secure Containers ASAP.
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Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.05.27 14:07:00 -
[24]
In RL if you throw a fiver out of your bedroom window and someone picks it up and walks off with it... what legal rights do you have to get it back? NONE! Even if you clam you were "making a big pile of money to collect later"...
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BlackMail
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Posted - 2004.05.27 14:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Viceroy
What exactly is the question?
Mining is supposed to be done this way;
Mine -> Cargo hold full -> Dock/empty -> repeat.
When you jetmine, you take the risk.
Dont expect everything to be super-easy high-reward ffs
What exactly is your's and other's malfunctions with this post????? 
I never said anything against ore thieves, besides the fact that I hate them, and think that they should be in game. I never said mining should be easy, ffs I mine in 0.0 definitely not easy. Nobody has answered my question yet,maybe I should edit my original post to make it clearer.
Before the nerfing of secure cans I fully believed that anyone *****ing about having ore taken from their can (notice I DIDN'T say stolen) should be told to "use secures". However after all of the nerfs to the secures, which make them logistically a non-entity when it comes to mining, especially for noobs (who btw can't normally afford secure's) how can the people who simply still say "use secures" continue saying that?????
And for the person who made a "diagram" of the placement.....ffs has anyone ever seen a belt where that would be possible and still use a scanner?
Repeat: I think ore thieves are a legitimate profession in eve, like pirates, even if they are scum!!!
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Charles Burger
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Posted - 2004.05.27 15:31:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Charles Burger on 27/05/2004 15:36:41
I guess can placement is just a talent that must be learned and practiced, just like any other "profession" in EVE. If others' methods don't work for you, then experiment and find your own.
But I do agree "use secures" is not a very good response... "Who told you to use jet cans? It is not a proper mining method, jettisoning stuff means that anyone can take it, using secure cans you can put passwords on but it can be awkward placing them in roid fields" would be a better response but too time-consuming for the average help-channel-helper who has seen the same question 500 times already...
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.05.27 16:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: hatchette
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
If you value so highly this ore that has taken you time to collect ... WHY DID YOU THROW IT AWAY?
You don't throw it away... it's like sitting on bench in park.. and putting your precious new notebook next to you. Did you throw it away? No!
Except that .. it's not like that. It's like putting waste disposal bin in the park alongside the bench and throwing your notebook into the waste bin. Did you throw it away? YES.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2004.05.27 17:15:00 -
[28]
Well I'm of the opinion stealing is stealing.
However I do not consider it griefing nor exploiting. Just a distasteful choice of profession. One that happens to include some rather pleasant, and some unpleasant, individuals.
Jetting ore into a can is not an exploit. CCP is of all things pragmatic. Clone jumping as a means of transportation was not by design. However it did not stop CCP from co-opting it into prime fiction (Research the story "One of a kind"). Pharmacy Keys pointed that out to me, thanks.
Nor is jetting a can full of ore. I'm primarily a miner in Eve and I've never had anyone steal ore from me. And if I see Vogon coming I might suggest to everyone to spread out jetting 1 unit of trit all over the place just for kicks. =)
But I will not join this band wagon of DEATH to ore thieves. Inconvenience maybe but only in fair regards to their choice of profession.
And that's that.
However the thread started made some valid points. Just a shame he asked them in the wrong place really. And I'm a prime example, occasionally, of the intolerance in these forums.
So let that be as much of an answer as you will get. One person plays the game, PLAYS, his way and others play their way. The conflict exists becuase people don't want to exercise their mind or efforts to either defeating the practice or annoying the practioner. They'd rather rant.
And maybe that is the only, no matter how weak, defense for the intolerance this issue raises.
Eve Guardian - Former Reporter
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Burga Galti
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Posted - 2004.05.27 17:19:00 -
[29]
Quote:
What exactly is your's and other's malfunctions with this post?????
The 'malfunction' we generally have is that this is an old topic that has been done to death, as you can seen from the many knee-jerk reactions.
Quote:
I never said anything against ore thieves, besides the fact that I hate them, and think that they should be in game. I never said mining should be easy, ffs I mine in 0.0 definitely not easy. Nobody has answered my question yet,maybe I should edit my original post to make it clearer.
I think you should because I don't see any question. Simply a statement that your hacked off, and you want a statement from CCP.
Quote:
Before the nerfing of secure cans I fully believed that anyone *****ing about having ore taken from their can (notice I DIDN'T say stolen) should be told to "use secures". However after all of the nerfs to the secures, which make them logistically a non-entity when it comes to mining, especially for noobs (who btw can't normally afford secure's) how can the people who simply still say "use secures" continue saying that?????
Yea, some noobs can have a problem affording them at first. Thats why they mine to their hold and go back to station until they can afford them, or they mine in an industrial. Neither of these is as affordable as using secures, and definetly not as much as using a jet can. And if the latter is too risky, and the other's too slow well... there is your possibility.
Quote:
And for the person who made a "diagram" of the placement.....ffs has anyone ever seen a belt where that would be possible and still use a scanner?
I'm quite proud of that actually, I knocked it up in about a minute. If your worried about being able to do that I could try make a 3-d version of it for you? Possibly use some in game screenies for the pics rather as blobs and squares.
And yea, I could do that in a lot of belts and still use a scanner. As far as I know the existance of secure cans does not affect the scanner what so ever. And if you mean clutter, it's 8 items. I've seen bigger rat spawns that that!
Quote:
Repeat: I think ore thieves are a legitimate profession in eve, like pirates, even if they are scum!!!
Those are your opinons, these are mine. Ore theft is viable, it is a part of the game. I, personally, count them as pirates not as a different class of player. If you want an inexpensive way of combating them, as opposed to the 'nerfed' expensive system of secure cans I suggest you mine in a badger. If you want to use the luxury of a cruiser of battleship to mine then you are either going to have to take a risk or pay for that luxury.
*whew* I should really lay off the petrol next time.
Tales from the EVE Cluster |
Turin
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Posted - 2004.05.27 17:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ryctor
Quote:
Ore thieves only harm newbies. A lot of them are on trial
I think I can speak for myself, Vog, and Tenaj that we rarely take from the newer members of this game. I usually hit up those in cruisers or Apoc strip miners. So dont try and make me out into a monster
Okay, your only a Scum inastead.
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