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Incredible lag in fleet battle - CCP engine is unplayable

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Molly Flanders	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:40:00 - [1] Edited by: Molly Flanders on 25/07/2008 23:40:04 5-7 min from hitting a button to seeing something happening. Invisible rats killing ships in fleet. 10 min waiting on gate jumping. Logging off in the middle of it, in the middle of enemy space. Needing to wait till tomorrow to try to get back without even knowing if my ship still flies. I just cant get it. First CCP balances all game to make huge decisive fleet battles a necessity. Battles done by ships that take literally months to build. And then we discover a game engine that simple CANNOT hold large number of ships in system and can't distribute load when clusters overloaded. I just experienced my first battle of that sort and I am extremely disappointed. I knew about lag but I never expected the game to stop completely. Seems to me that building anything up in EVE is of no good, since real battles for domination are completely decided by lag. I am seriously considering leaving the game.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:41:00 - [2] Originally by: Molly Flanders I am seriously considering leaving the game. Can I have your stuff? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Zinras Caldari Order of draugr	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:42:00 - [3] Can I have your stuff as well? Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That si a fact comming out from my bran.
42BelowVodka	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:45:00 - [4] Can I have your stuff?
Switch Hitter	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Molly Flanders Edited by: Molly Flanders on 25/07/2008 23:40:04 5-7 min from hitting a button to seeing something happening. Invisible rats killing ships in fleet. 10 min waiting on gate jumping. Logging off in the middle of it, in the middle of enemy space. Needing to wait till tomorrow to try to get back without even knowing if my ship still flies. I just cant get it. First CCP balances all game to make huge decisive fleet battles a necessity. Battles done by ships that take literally months to build. And then we discover a game engine that simple CANNOT hold large number of ships in system and can't distribute load when clusters overloaded. I just experienced my first battle of that sort and I am extremely disappointed. I knew about lag but I never expected the game to stop completely. Seems to me that building anything up in EVE is of no good, since real battles for domination are completely decided by lag. I am seriously considering leaving the game. I feel your pain.... Can I have your belongings?
Robert Rosenberg Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:47:00 - [6] Ignore all these stupid troll idiots asking for your stuff... I deserve it more.
Drapes	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Robert Rosenberg Ignore all these stupid troll idiots asking for your stuff... I deserve it more. I beg to differ..... I will gank them all. If I can haz your stuffs
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:51:00 - [8] Edited by: Farrqua on 25/07/2008 23:51:51 All you can do is try to minimize as much as you can on your side of the screen. Turn off all effects, turn off brackets, Turn off turrets, turn off all the blinky blinky carp you have, minimize all the windows that are not useful atm. Make sure you turn your cache to low, run it on the old graphics, turn off sound, turn off notifications and so on. And then you have what you have. IT will help a bit. But then you get used to it after a couple of times and earn to work with it. Not all are like that. But it is what it is.
Removal Tool Vogon Deconstruction Fleet	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:55:00 - [9] Go to your graphic settings (hit the esc key for that). Now in the graphics tab, uncheck the boxes for effects, sun is occluded, show trails, etc. This should help a lot.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:57:00 - [10] Also, you should learn to properly use bracket settings, I've found that turning off ships and drones can really speed things up, for client-side lag anyway. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)

Molly Flanders	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Farrqua Edited by: Farrqua on 25/07/2008 23:51:51 All you can do is try to minimize as much as you can on your side of the screen. Turn off all effects, turn off brackets, Turn off turrets, turn off all the blinky blinky carp you have, minimize all the windows that are not useful atm. Make sure you turn your cache to low, run it on the old graphics, turn off sound, turn off notifications and so on. And then you have what you have. IT will help a bit. But then you get used to it after a couple of times and earn to work with it. Not all are like that. But it is what it is. I did all that. It has nothing with my machine. It has everything with server engine. I NEVER imagined HOW bad it is. I am serious - all big scale dread battles I read so much about are just a lie. They decided not by player skils but by who got more lag.
Molly Flanders	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Molly Flanders on 26/07/2008 00:03:01 Originally by: Tarminic Also, you should learn to properly use bracket settings, I've found that turning off ships and drones can really speed things up, for client-side lag anyway. I have powerful client machine, and proper bracket/overview settings. You never seen what I experienced today. And of course I turned off every event I could have think of. But it wasn't client side - it was hitting my hardeners and see them going on literally in several minutes after. Whole cluster suddenly went into incredible slowness.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:02:00 - [13] Dont fly in blobs, its not fun and it lags. You are not forced into those blobs. Now stfu.
Molly Flanders	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Molly Flanders I am seriously considering leaving the game. Can I have your stuff? No. My corp will have it, not you.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:06:00 - [15] This has already been said as well as or better than I can say it. Source Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Aria Seniste	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:06:00 - [16] All combat is like this because your first battle was bad. Can I have your stuff?
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:07:00 - [17] Um a lot of us have seen this kind of thing and making an assumption that we have never seen anything like this from someone that has been in only one fleet battle so far..yea. Been in fleet fights from 200 to 800 peeps in a system kicking ans spitting at each other. Some were good smooth fights of 600 while the 200 peep battle had 10 minute mod lag and then the node crashed. Some days are good some days are bad. You just learn to operate. I have seen some pretty awesome fleet battles as advertised. But then again some I was in I never even loaded grid. Its just one of thiose things you deal with.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Molly Flanders Originally by: Tarminic Also, you should learn to properly use bracket settings, I've found that turning off ships and drones can really speed things up, for client-side lag anyway. I have powerful client machine, and proper bracket/overview settings. You never seen what I experienced today. It wasn't client side - it was hitting my hardeners and see them going on literally in several minutes after. NOTE: Serious Post Lag sucks a gigantic, throbbing donkey wang, we all know that. CCP's current software architecture doesn't support the kind of battles that the playerbase is capable of creating. This is due primarily to two things: 1. CCP not thinking ahead enough to create objectives that must be completed simultaneously instead of serially 2. CCP banking on the speed of single processor units increasing in line with Moore's Law instead of multi-core proccessors Those parts suck, but CCP as a company is far from infallible (titans, anyone?) and that's just an unavoidable fact. They're also building a supercomputer that will be one of the most powerful in Europe and rewriting their software to better share load between processor nodes, which will go a very long way toward reducing lag. They're also revamping the 0.0 sovereignty system to create distributed objectives. To summarize, they are trying to fix what they broke. In the mean time, yes, it sucks, but there is nothing to be done. If these battles keep you from enjoying EVE, then you should either change your playstyle so you don't have to be in them that often, put up with it, or find a different game. Don't take that as an insult of any kind of "fine, quit anyway, ur dumb!" statement, it's just the truth. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Molly Flanders Edited by: Molly Flanders on 25/07/2008 23:40:04 5-7 min from hitting a button to seeing something happening. Invisible rats killing ships in fleet. 10 min waiting on gate jumping. Logging off in the middle of it, in the middle of enemy space. Needing to wait till tomorrow to try to get back without even knowing if my ship still flies. I just cant get it. First CCP balances all game to make huge decisive fleet battles a necessity. Battles done by ships that take literally months to build. And then we discover a game engine that simple CANNOT hold large number of ships in system and can't distribute load when clusters overloaded. I just experienced my first battle of that sort and I am extremely disappointed. I knew about lag but I never expected the game to stop completely. Seems to me that building anything up in EVE is of no good, since real battles for domination are completely decided by lag. I am seriously considering leaving the game. Welcome to EVE, It's been like this for 2 years at least. First we had the "Dragon patch" and then the "need for Speed initiative" and CCP's latest snake-oil solution is called "inifniband". Well, at least Infiniband actually exists. Get used to the LAG, until CCP addresses its shoddy network code and inability to exploit modern hardware tech effectively. But hey, at least sometime early next year you'll be able to be distracted from the LAG by dressing your toon in clothes, and farking-around in stations . The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder and politics will foam up about their waists and all the world will look up and shout 'Save us!'.. and I will look down and whisper, 'No'..
Molly Flanders	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:40:00 - [20] Quote: NOTE: Serious Post Lag sucks a gigantic, throbbing donkey wang, we all know that. CCP's current software architecture doesn't support the kind of battles that the playerbase is capable of creating. This is due primarily to two things: 1. CCP not thinking ahead enough to create objectives that must be completed simultaneously instead of serially 2. CCP banking on the speed of single processor units increasing in line with Moore's Law instead of multi-core proccessors Those parts suck, but CCP as a company is far from infallible (titans, anyone?) and that's just an unavoidable fact. They're also building a supercomputer that will be one of the most powerful in Europe and rewriting their software to better share load between processor nodes, which will go a very long way toward reducing lag. They're also revamping the 0.0 sovereignty system to create distributed objectives. To summarize, they are trying to fix what they broke. In the mean time, yes, it sucks, but there is nothing to be done. If these battles keep you from enjoying EVE, then you should either change your playstyle so you don't have to be in them that often, put up with it, or find a different game. Don't take that as an insult of any kind of "fine, quit anyway, ur dumb!" statement, it's just the truth. Thanks for thoughtful reply. Any link on this rebuilding server base thing?

GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:45:00 - [21] 50 on 50 is no lag 70 vs 70 is no lag you need to turn off all the effects, and turn off brackets and with that you can even get to 100 vs 100 with out lag i sence a connection between us the signal is comming from you contracts into my hangers you see the connection right ?
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Molly Flanders Thanks for thoughtful reply. Any link on this rebuilding server base thing? Here's a giant thread on it peppered with dev responses: Linkage Only indirectly helpful, but here's a devblog about lag and CCP's server architecture: (Can't find it at the moment, I know it's somewhere around here... Old devblog(s) about hardware upgrades (I believe they've added more blade servers twice since this and at least 2 more RAMSANS), earliest blog is on top: Linkage Linkage Linkage ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Elysarian Minmatar dudetruck corp	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:58:00 - [23] Edited by: Elysarian on 26/07/2008 01:02:54 I've been so far quiet on this subject but it might be time to comment... The problem is that CCP did not (as many other producers of non-instanced, non-sharded MMO's have done) anticipate the amount of latency that can be caused by multiple single-threaded calls to a multi-user database.. Fix for lagginess could involve a combo of moving some of the processing to the clients (make Eve truly distributed) or making the server-side stuff more multi-threaded and optimising for a multinode system (while simultaneously replacing existing servers) The above should be asy to acheve by paying for it with the money from subs (Assuming CCP isn't under the thumb of shareholders and can actually spend some money). EDIT: typos and... would like some Dev comment
HapsBurg	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:00:00 - [24] I POSTED A SEMI HOT POST WITH MY ALT SHADOW GOON. IT WAS NOT A NAKED GIRL, SHE HAD CLOTHES ON. ATLEST A THONG AND A BRA AT ALL TIMES. AND THE **ING * CCP FOURM SUCKING JEW . GAVE ME A ING LIFE TIME BAN ON THE FOURM. CCP YOU CAN GO YOUR SELF IN YOUR ASS. YOU SENSOR EVERYTHING BAN PEOPLE FOR NO RESON AND JUST LET ING *S POST WHAT THEY WANT BUT WHEN WE COOL KIDS POST SOMETHING FUNNY OR HOT YOU BAN US AND SUCK YOUR OWN S AT THE OFFICE YOU ING JEW S I HOPE THE MODS ON THIS FOURM DIE OF NUT CANCER AND THERE WIFES GIVE BACK TO BALCK BABYS WITH HIV YOU *ING CHILD MOSLETING SUPPORTING *S THIS IS WHY I LEFT THIS ING GAME YOU HAVE NO ING RESPECT FOR THOSE WHOM FEED YOU ING UNGREATFULL *S OF A JEW YOU ALL IN THE MONTH WITH A HIV YOU ING SHIT FACES GAY *S. HAPPY WHORING AND GL IN THE FUTURE WITH YOUR ED UP BRAINS YOU SICK ING JEW *S YOUR BEST SHADOW GOON,GENERAL STARSCREAM,MISS FIONA AND THE REST OF THE ALT * ING SHIT ARMY YOU CAN GO BAN ME ALL YOU WHANT YOU ING * **S BAN MY IP DONT EVER LET ME NEAR EVE YOU S YOU WHANNA WITH CRAZY PEOPLE?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? YOU WHANNA ME!!! IN THE ASS WITH THE ING HIV JEW ** YOU GOT???? WELL YOU I WILL ING OFF YOU BEFOR YOU STICK YOUR SHITTY INTO MY ING ASS YOU *S BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURNNNNN YOU *S BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN YES IM INSANE IM INN A MENTAL HOSTIPTAL; AND I DONT GIVE A IF I LIVE OR DIE AND I DONT GIVE A IF ANYONE ELSE DIES OR LIVES SO GO ON WITH ME YOU ***S. Oh and btw your mamma
Elysarian Minmatar dudetruck corp	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:07:00 - [25] I really hope I didn't incite the monster that is the all-caps vitriol that precedes this... if I did then I apologise
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Elysarian The problem is that CCP did not (as many other producers of non-instanced, non-sharded MMO's have done) anticipate the amount of latency that can be caused by multiple single-threaded calls to a multi-user database. At this point, the database calls aren't the problem. Each blade server is connected to one of three (I think) identical RAMSAN databases through at gigabit ethernet connection. The problem at this point is server-level processing power that increases exponentially as more players occupy the same grid and engage in combat of some form. Quote: Fix for lagginess could involve a combo of moving some of the processing to the clients (make Eve truly distributed) or making the server-side stuff more multi-threaded and optimising for a multinode system (while simultaneously replacing existing servers) Unfortunately, in any MMO you simply cannot trust the client - the only way to reasonably move processing to the client side is to check the accuracy of all readings sent back through redundancy, at which points you lose any of the gains of client-side processing. Regarding a multi-threaded server, the biggest problem expressed by devs is that it's very difficult to write and test multi-threaded code to keep things like race conditions from propping up and weird things happening (like getting killed by ships you destroyed 30 seconds ago, etc). I believe that they're working on this but it's a long way off, as primarily they're concentrating on the supercomputer and infiniband. Quote: The above should be asy to acheve by paying for it with the money from subs (Assuming CCP isn't under the thumb of shareholders and can actually spend some money). CCP is privately owned, so no shareholders to worry about. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:11:00 - [27] Originally by: HapsBurg crap, more crap lots of crap there a dev out lurking somewhere he main post is deleted yeay for teara or wrangler i love you both equally
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Tarminic Also, you should learn to properly use bracket settings, I've found that turning off ships and drones can really speed things up, for client-side lag anyway. so glad you read that on the forums, so glad you been in fleet combat, so glad you know nothing about this game and are just a joke, cheers. the real problems in eve the DEVs can't fix. My new tinfoil hat thoughts are the dev's all have a god complex and they are trying to remove the older experienced players out of spite that we actually know how the game should be played while their sole job now is just to feck it up. lag, titans, sov, BOs, bombs, POS the list goes on forever, but they chose speed to screw with and in typical ccp fashion they suck at changning things once the players have spoken...
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:21:00 - [29] First thing I think must be said is this: Money cannot buy a fix to everything. Sure, the system lags. EVERY game lags. Either your system at home isn't up to par, or your like me and your IsP seems to be using Tandy 1000 PC's to handle network traffic (not possible, I know ;?j ). If you really want less lag, fly in smaller fleets. What surprises me is that players don't see THEMSELVES as being the solution to this problem. We all want to win so badly, that we'll amass the largest battlegroup we possibly can. Screw the server! If it lags, its not MY fault because I won't step outside the script that someone else wrote for me! I will blob from system to system, and then when I lose my ship because the servers can't handle it, I will go to the forums to post about how I hate CCP for not letting my world be perfect!?! Um ... fly in smaller groups. Sounds goofy, your thinking 'you don't understand 0.0', your already going through your choice selection of spelling newb and whatnot, but fights can be fought in many systems at the same time, and many large groups can do what one large fleet can. Having 150+ people in one fleet is awesome, yes ... but there isn't a single game on the market that I know of that can handle what Eve can. Computers aren't that advanced. Biggest OS producer in the world can't make their debut product work to expectations, and we want some privately owned and rather small game developer to be perfect. Man, are we snobby or what??? Genesis Project
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: Tarminic Also, you should learn to properly use bracket settings, I've found that turning off ships and drones can really speed things up, for client-side lag anyway. so glad you read that on the forums, so glad you been in fleet combat, so glad you know nothing about this game and are just a joke, cheers. the real problems in eve the DEVs can't fix. My new tinfoil hat thoughts are the dev's all have a god complex and they are trying to remove the older experienced players out of spite that we actually know how the game should be played while their sole job now is just to feck it up. lag, titans, sov, BOs, bombs, POS the list goes on forever, but they chose speed to screw with and in typical ccp fashion they suck at changning things once the players have spoken... what are you on about lag is seriously reduced doing this method and turning off you effects, aswell sound like someone hasnt been in a fight that thought he would mock someone who actually has but thought not O_O ok im confused to who is mocking who now eve is life people



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