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why does falcon need nerf?

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Red zeon Caldari Shades Corp The OSS	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:35:00 - [1] i hear complaints about fleet falcons wiping other fleets, bs', noob fleets, :P do you know how hard it is to jam a bs with backupp arrays, you can get a raven to 70sensor strength, do you know how hard it is to jam that? 20falcons with race jammers against 10ravens with backupp arrays would loose epicly. if you know your gonna face a bunch of jammers, why would you not fit a bunch of backup arrays. there is a counter for it, and if you dont wear a counter for the attack your facing and loose, why would you whine? do you whine if you cant extinguish fire with air?
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:37:00 - [2] dont pvp much do you ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:45:00 - [3] Actually. 20 falcons vs 10 - "70" strength ravens. Assuming you all have 6 caldari jammers.. and assuming 2 falcons per raven. 1- (1- (1/7))^6) per falcon. About 60% chance to jam per falcon. Since you have two falcons per raven.. 1- (1- (.6))^2) Or about an 84% chance to jam each raven. That's without rigs on the falcons too. If someone wants, I'll redo the numbers with rigs. It will probably hit around 90%.
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:47:00 - [4] You rarely have a slot to spare for a backup array, ever tried to fly amarr? Falcons are the killers of fun fights and the gang who uses them often cuts themself. I faced some 1 vs X fights wehre i wanted to engage but a Falcon made me deagress. A fleet of Falcons vs a fleet of backuped Ravens cant die, they would simply run before the cruise missiles hit. The Ravens were pretty invincible cause of the range. Ok, you could go in cose range but ... [ironic] i beliefe you know what you're talking about [/ironic]
Red zeon Caldari Shades Corp The OSS	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:51:00 - [5] bad thread,. but still, to much whine about falcons i think.. ecm has allready been nerfed. well i know noone would fit full rack with backup arrays but still. you should try fitting atleast 1 if you expect a gang got some ecm,
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Red zeon bad thread,. but still, to much whine about falcons i think.. ecm has allready been nerfed. well i know noone would fit full rack with backup arrays but still. you should try fitting atleast 1 if you expect a gang got some ecm, Those of us that don't station hug usually can't setup depending on gang
Dai'nin Roi'nin	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:57:00 - [7] Falcons? Oh, you mean those insta-primary targets in my overview.
Red zeon Caldari Shades Corp The OSS	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Chr0nosX Edited by: Chr0nosX on 27/07/2008 15:56:07 Originally by: Red zeon bad thread,. but still, to much whine about falcons i think.. ecm has allready been nerfed. well i know noone would fit full rack with backup arrays but still. you should try fitting atleast 1 if you expect a gang got some ecm, Those of us that don't station hug usually can't change setups depending on gang. Oh lets all fit eccm. 10min later: "Im stuck in a bubble I dropped my mwd" "I can't web the vaga I dropped it" "I don't have a point" oh can i buy your mwd/point and web that i can fit in a low slot plz i pay good.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Red zeon oh can i buy your mwd/point and web that i can fit in a low slot plz i pay good. No put I can sell you the active eccm that fits in mids.
Red zeon Caldari Shades Corp The OSS	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Chr0nosX Originally by: Red zeon oh can i buy your mwd/point and web that i can fit in a low slot plz i pay good. No put I can sell you the active eccm that fits in mids. touche. well thias thread sux, it filled its point

Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:09:00 - [11] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 27/07/2008 16:06:54 Actually. 20 falcons vs 10 - "70" strength ravens. Assuming you all have 6 caldari jammers.. and assuming 2 falcons per raven. 1- (1- (1/7))^6) per falcon. About 60% chance to jam per falcon. Since you have two falcons per raven.. 1- (1- (.6))^2) Or about an 84% chance to jam each raven. That's without rigs on the falcons too. If someone wants, I'll redo the numbers with rigs. It will probably hit around 90%. Edit: failmaths. Re-doing numbers... A double backup'd raven has 79 strength. Falcon with a full on ECM strength setup(2 SDA IIs/2 Strength rigs) has 13.8 strength per jammer. 1- (1- (13.8/79))^6) or a 74% chance to jam, per falcon. 1- (1- (.74))^2) for both falcons per raven. Or a 93% chance to jam each raven. Or to put it another way: losing a falcon every other cycle, becase your 20 falcons can't break 1 raven tank, and every time a raven is unjammed, you lose a falcon. Or the ravens have FoF cruise and you lose 5 falcons per cycle. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Shock Wave Caldari Sinister Defiance Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:10:00 - [12] hmmm... this must of been "i want to get flamed" thread
kessah State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:13:00 - [13] Il give you an example of my experience. Im now commited to fitting dual ECCM battleships, and with overload ive been jammed easy 3 times in a row and continued being jammed through out fights. Now its not that i expect to be invunerable to ECM, even though if i fitted dual sensors boosters id easy defend myself agaisnt an arazu, but its the fact that if a falcon devotes all 6 jammers on you, you will be jammed, theres no if's or buts, no amount of ECCM (realistically) will protect you. Its out at 150km+ and not really being brought into the fight tbh. Its is of my opinion that there med slots be reduced, and have them increase there high slots so that then can do as the Arazu and at least fire some weaponary. get rid of its range bonus and give it something nasty dmg wise. Even with that proposal you'll still perma jam any ship that aint got eccm, but currently im not happy with how there used.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:16:00 - [14] Also welcome "nano nerf" you wont be able to burn to falcon within 10-15 seconds. Now you will need 40+ seconds making falcons with pre-set bookmarks almost impossible to catch.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:17:00 - [15] So furthering on your 20 falcons vs 10 ravens, with a 93% chance to jam each raven, the average number of ravens able to lock will be under 1. I setup some "damage" falcons that push 100 DPS, so with them working together, 2k DPS. Since you dropped your mids for backups, and you damn well better be fit with MWD/point, you'll have a weak tank. This is also assuming you're using cruise missiles, as you'd have to drop ANOTHER mid for a painter. You come out with a best case 78.5k EHP. Also assuming a full on gank setup of 730 DPS from cruise missiles + drones. You come out with an average (.07 * 7300) or 511 DPS. The falcons average 2000 DPS. Their EHP is a lot weaker, around 11k. If the falcons pull of a couple of perfect jam cycles, the ravens are toast. If a few manage to slip through the fingers of random probability, some falcons are dieing. Unless they stagger ECM... and then it gets messy from there. TLDR: I'd put my money on the falcons, but it could go either way. The big kicker is the falcon's low EHP, so it would only take 3 volleys from a raven to make it pop. If the falcons are well co-ordinated though, they might be able to stop that 3rd volley. The falcon gang DOES have 120 racial jammers.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Malcanis Or to put it another way: losing a falcon every other cycle, becase your 20 falcons can't break 1 raven tank, and every time a raven is unjammed, you lose a falcon. Or the ravens have FoF cruise and you lose 5 falcons per cycle. It's impossible to draw conclusions really, but read above.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also welcome "nano nerf" you wont be able to burn to falcon within 10-15 seconds. Now you will need 40+ seconds making falcons with pre-set bookmarks almost impossible to catch. You also need pre-set bookmarks, otherwise the hostile gang is well prepared to defeat you (I mean come on, the falcon has every correct racial right?).
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:20:00 - [18] Originally by: kessah Il give you an example of my experience. Im now commited to fitting dual ECCM battleships, and with overload ive been jammed easy 3 times in a row and continued being jammed through out fights. Now its not that i expect to be invunerable to ECM, even though if i fitted dual sensors boosters id easy defend myself agaisnt an arazu, but its the fact that if a falcon devotes all 6 jammers on you, you will be jammed, theres no if's or buts, no amount of ECCM (realistically) will protect you. Its out at 150km+ and not really being brought into the fight tbh. Its is of my opinion that there med slots be reduced, and have them increase there high slots so that then can do as the Arazu and at least fire some weaponary. get rid of its range bonus and give it something nasty dmg wise. Even with that proposal you'll still perma jam any ship that aint got eccm, but currently im not happy with how there used. Counteranecdote: our gang took on 4 BS; we had a falcon and a rook. One dude in a mega was only jammed once by me & rook, despite me devoting all my jammers on him, and over the next 5 jam cycles he killed the gang member we were trying to save. In short: individual experiences count for nothing when discussing chance-based mechanics. An ECCM'd BS is very difficult to jam, just as a tanked BS is very difficult to kill. But if you apply enough ships to the problem it gets a lot easier. People always neglect to remember that an enemy Falcon may cost them some DPS but definitely will cost the some enemy DPS. Witness the silly "20 falcs vs 10 ravens" comparison. What about 20 Sacris vs 10 Ravens? That would be a terrible slaughter of battleships. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
kessah State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: kessah Il give you an example of my experience. Im now commited to fitting dual ECCM battleships, and with overload ive been jammed easy 3 times in a row and continued being jammed through out fights. Now its not that i expect to be invunerable to ECM, even though if i fitted dual sensors boosters id easy defend myself agaisnt an arazu, but its the fact that if a falcon devotes all 6 jammers on you, you will be jammed, theres no if's or buts, no amount of ECCM (realistically) will protect you. Its out at 150km+ and not really being brought into the fight tbh. Its is of my opinion that there med slots be reduced, and have them increase there high slots so that then can do as the Arazu and at least fire some weaponary. get rid of its range bonus and give it something nasty dmg wise. Even with that proposal you'll still perma jam any ship that aint got eccm, but currently im not happy with how there used. Counteranecdote: our gang took on 4 BS; we had a falcon and a rook. One dude in a mega was only jammed once by me & rook, despite me devoting all my jammers on him, and over the next 5 jam cycles he killed the gang member we were trying to save. In short: individual experiences count for nothing when discussing chance-based mechanics. An ECCM'd BS is very difficult to jam, just as a tanked BS is very difficult to kill. But if you apply enough ships to the problem it gets a lot easier. People always neglect to remember that an enemy Falcon may cost them some DPS but definitely will cost the some enemy DPS. Witness the silly "20 falcs vs 10 ravens" comparison. What about 20 Sacris vs 10 Ravens? That would be a terrible slaughter of battleships. Its my experience and alot of pilots i know, Endless subversion flys a 3x eccm'ed Apoc and still gets jammed a multitued of times, these are pilots ive flown with on a regular basis and my heart sinks everytime i hear them or myself being jammed by a falcon with the amount of ECCM we pack. Its shouldnt be 'unlikly' it should be near impossible. I may remind you aswell that Gallente ships have a much larger base jam strength compared to Amarr and Minmatar. Falcons shouldnt be out at 150km, they should be in the thick of it, or at least at the range of an arazu. I dont fly blobs i fight in small gang warfare, alot of people do. So im sticking up for the combat that slowly gets less every patch release.
Upright Amarr Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Dai'nin Roi'nin Falcons? Oh, you mean those insta-primary targets in my overview. Don't you think there is a reason for that?

AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Malcanis People always neglect to remember that an enemy Falcon may cost them some DPS but definitely will cost the some enemy DPS. Witness the silly "20 falcs vs 10 ravens" comparison. What about 20 Sacris vs 10 Ravens? That would be a terrible slaughter of battleships. If you think of it this way, 19 falcons and an abaddon would slaughter 10 ravens. You know... assuming no warp outs or whatever. It's a stupid situation either way, but this makes it a lot more black and white.
SheriffFruitfly Caldari M. Corp	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:34:00 - [22] Because whiny @ss t!tty babies say so. And they pretty much always win. So rather than fix somethin like fleet lag, ccp spends its time on useless cr@p.
Atreus Tac	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:41:00 - [23] Originally by: AstroPhobic If you think of it this way, 19 falcons and an abaddon would slaughter 10 ravens. You know... assuming no warp outs or whatever. It's a stupid situation either way, but this makes it a lot more black and white. yeah and 19 curses amd 1 raven would slaughter 10 abaddons. NERF -Cheers- Atreus Tac
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Atreus Tac Originally by: AstroPhobic If you think of it this way, 19 falcons and an abaddon would slaughter 10 ravens. You know... assuming no warp outs or whatever. It's a stupid situation either way, but this makes it a lot more black and white. yeah and 19 curses amd 1 raven would slaughter 10 abaddons. NERF I'm not saying it's overpowered. I'm just responding to the OP's mythical situation. He seems to think that 20 falcons would have trouble jamming 10 double-ECCM'd ravens. They wouldn't.
Atreus Tac	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:55:00 - [25] Originally by: AstroPhobic I'm not saying it's overpowered. I'm just responding to the OP's mythical situation. He seems to think that 20 falcons would have trouble jamming 10 double-ECCM'd ravens. They wouldn't. I'll admit that yes, the falcon is rather good at stoping people from shooting. However i do not think that the falcon is overpowered. It can do one job and that is all, thus it should be able to do that job very well. if it was nerfed at all it would utterly useless, if it were to have its range lowered it would die in seconds as it has no tank and will never be able to field any tank (unless slapping a DC on is called a tank). maybe if it gave out 300 dps and could perma jam someone then it sould be struck by the nerf bat, but untill that happens the falcon is fine as it is. PS. buff the rook -Cheers- Atreus Tac
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Atreus Tac Originally by: AstroPhobic I'm not saying it's overpowered. I'm just responding to the OP's mythical situation. He seems to think that 20 falcons would have trouble jamming 10 double-ECCM'd ravens. They wouldn't. I'll admit that yes, the falcon is rather good at stoping people from shooting. However i do not think that the falcon is overpowered. It can do one job and that is all, thus it should be able to do that job very well. if it was nerfed at all it would utterly useless, if it were to have its range lowered it would die in seconds as it has no tank and will never be able to field any tank (unless slapping a DC on is called a tank). maybe if it gave out 300 dps and could perma jam someone then it sould be struck by the nerf bat, but untill that happens the falcon is fine as it is. PS. buff the rook I don't really have an opinion, one way or the other. I'm just here to provide some numbers and shut down silly theories. I do, however think ECCM could be a little bit more effective.
Atreus Tac	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:01:00 - [27] Originally by: AstroPhobic I don't really have an opinion, one way or the other. I'm just here to provide some numbers and shut down silly theories. I do, however think ECCM could be a little bit more effective. good shout tbh, new campaign, boost ECCM. PS. view from a BB/wannabe falcon pilot -Cheers- Atreus Tac
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:06:00 - [28] Falcons need to be nerfed to satisfy the ego of EFT-abusing blaster boat pilots. It's completely unfair to expect people to fit long-range setups to insta-pop those Falcons when it would result in a lower dps number in EFT. Therefore Falcons need to be removed, or at least nerfed to under 10km range (maybe change the range bonus to a hybrid turret damage bonus and add a gun slot).
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:17:00 - [29] My issue with falcons isn't the percent chance they have to jam, its the RANGE they can do it at. I understand that their ECM is their tank so it makes sense that they can jam to stop people from shooting at them but when you factor in they are doing it from so far out range becomes their tank as well so they are effectively double tanking. As far as jamming strength goes I don't think the strength of the ECM's is the problem, I think the strength of ECCM is the problem. Fitting a ECCM mod just doesn't make it hard enough for a falcon/rook to jam you. But honestly I am not to worried about it. With nano's being out of the way now I figure ECM is going to be next on the chopping block since jamming ships are going to be even harder to get to since speed is getting nerfed.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Ignatious Mei My issue with falcons isn't the percent chance they have to jam, its the RANGE they can do it at. I understand that their ECM is their tank so it makes sense that they can jam to stop people from shooting at them but when you factor in they are doing it from so far out range becomes their tank as well so they are effectively double tanking. Again: stop flying ego-satisfying EFT damage setups and fit long-range weapons. Falcons insta-pop if you have the range to hit them. Quote: As far as jamming strength goes I don't think the strength of the ECM's is the problem, I think the strength of ECCM is the problem. Fitting a ECCM mod just doesn't make it hard enough for a falcon/rook to jam you. Actually it does. Stop thinking about solo fights and consider a gang fight (where a Falcon is actually used). If you fit ECCM, you will still get jammed, but it means it takes more jammers to get you, meaning fewer jammers left for the rest of your gang (who may also be fitting ECCM). The result, if you have a long-range gang instead of EFT damage setups, is a dead Falcon. Quote: But honestly I am not to worried about it. With nano's being out of the way now I figure ECM is going to be next on the chopping block since jamming ships are going to be even harder to get to since speed is getting nerfed. Harder to get to for EFT damage setups. Forget about the "lololol my mega does 999999999999999999999 dps!!!!1!" setups, fit long-range ships, and you can kill the Falcons without moving a single km.



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