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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 20:48:18 I have a simple and elegant solution that would address the proposed speed problem. One in which I believe the player base with accept with out too much fuss and it still will address the speed issue definitively.
IÆm not sure how knowledgeable you are with aeronautical terminology so I will keep things simple.
I propose there be a new facet introduced to all ships. (Not just hull based) And that new facet should be called Vne (Velocity Never Exceed). This is an actual aircraft rating in the real world. In layman terms itÆs a speed at which you start causing abnormal stress/damage to an aircraftÆs hull. IE if you exceed the Vne too much for too long the wings will rip off or cause other catastrophic damage. By instituting this new dynamic you will be able to effectively kill the ôludicrousö speed as noted in the blog. With out the huge sweeping changes that are on SISI now.
As an idea how this would work: say a ship has a Vne rating of 5k/ms. Now if that same ship exceeds that rating it would start incurring hull damage. Now the amount of damage incurred VRS the amount of speed over the rated Vne is of course variable. And just as in real ships/aircraft some hulls are built more heavily then others.
Since this new dynamic is based in real life most every one will understand it and accept it. And bluntly it just makes sense that this is how things should work. Just as in real life: sure you can strap a MX missile to your back, nothing is stopping you. But youÆre not going to live long if you fire that bad boy off.
But an important effect of instituting a change like this is you can leave all the modules and implants at their current nominal values. So people with snakes in their heads or people that have a lot of time in trained skills donÆt wined up having their efforts completely destroyed. Of course no one is ever happy at the prospect of having their efforts completely destroyed by the institution of a new policy.
I think most every one would agree that this would not kill small gang warfare, but rather it would add a new dynamic to the necessary piloting skills to be successful. Since speed tanked ships donÆt fit reps having even a small amount of hull/armor damage is a huge factor in the decision making process of any one piloting a nano/speed tanked ship. Conversely people might actually fit remote hull repairers to their ships for after combat repairs. And since these modules are very power thirsty, I would not think they would/could be use them wile still in combat. And I would bet most people would acknowledge that remote hull reps are almost completely absent from roaming speed gangs.
MOST importantly in the end analyses making a change like this adds new decision VRS penalty choice that every pilot would have to make. Yes people would be able to go at ôludicrousö speeds, but NOT FOR LONG and not with out a PENALTY. And as an added benefit since you are not making a huge change to the game dynamic. So I would expect the resulting ôUNEXPECTED result of X nerfö would be greatly diminished.
NOT TO MENTION YOU WOULD NOT HAVE A HUGE PORTION OF YOUÆRE PLAYER BASE UP IN ARMS. Happy customers are repeat customers!
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:45:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 20:47:39
Think of it as just like over heating a MWD. It becomes damaged. No diffrent here just its the hull and speed related. And the mechanic to do this is already there with over loading.
Its more simple that nerfing every thing else. LOL
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:55:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 20:56:44 Actualy Eve dose have a sudo drag coe. Example why dose your aligment time go up in proportion to your forward velocity? there is no drag in space. So your aligment time is related to your mass and moment of inertia. In space forward motion hould have no effect in this. But in EVE is dose.
However a Vne dosent have to be drag related. It can be a function of heat, stress and any other number of contributing factors.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:03:00 -
[4]
Wellàààààalmost 200 reviews of this thread, and no one has jumped in to tell me how stupid I am and how this would never work!!
Hmmmm àà.. Might be onto something here.
I will be the first to say there would need to be some details that would need to be hammered out.
Such as- What about people that are logging back in to the game wile not in an alliance POS. // well you could code a delay to the Vne effect when some one just logs in. That would take care of that nicely.
And such as- What about caps that jump in on top of one another? (BTW both caps would be bumped pretty fast) my opinion would be to let them both suffer damage. Since the cyno pilot was dumb enough to pop it in the middle of the enemy cap fleet. (Knowing full well about the Vne effect beforehand) Once again calling for skill.
I think the best part of this solution is, it side steps all of the issues of balancing Modules/Skills/Gang effects/Implants completely. So no one loses out here. Every one can fit their ships how ever they want/trained for. And it doesnÆt make a difference because once you exceed Vne you take damage.
On a side note POPING you OWN ship from going to fast is not something any one is going to do very often. <Evil Grin> But will sure make for some funny comms!!!
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Willow Whisp
This is a really interesting, and rather elegant solution.
Thank you
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon I msut say it won 't work. I worked ian another space ship mmo in past. And we tried to implement that. The problem is.. you are going at your max speed.. then a very fast ship comes from behind you and bump you. Now you are goign faster and taking a LOT of damage. Or worse.. someone changes the password of the POS, you are ejected at 20 km/s and dies because of this damage.
Please read my posts I have already adressed that.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:22:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 23:24:30
Originally by: Tomic One thing that no-one has spotted... What happens when you goto warp? These speeds are created by a micro-WARP-drive, which already have a "rated" speed (the boost amount). Ok you might be going several km/s, but as soon as you click warp you speed up to several hundred million km/s. That is a lot of damage to explain away.
I dont think any one is realy worried about warp speeds. Only normal space speeds
But to address your post you would INSTA POP. Assuming Vne is applied to FTL travle. Which OBVIOUSLY it wouldent be.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.28 23:47:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 23:53:06 Edited by: Rezaa on 28/07/2008 23:52:31
Actually I just though of a couple of important things regarding making Vne a reality in EvE.
#1 since speed could be just as deadly as your opposing opponent. We would need a better way of regulating our speeds in the UI. AKA a better throttle as it were. And I would suggest a multi segmented, multi colored BAR/GRAPH, with a specific color for throttle position and a separate color for actual speed. And of course any throttle settings/speed over Vne would be colored RED. I dont think it would take much to do this since the mechanics already exist in game for this. But as it stands now they are never used its always full throttle or nothing right now.
This would really change the dynamics of flying a ship. Because now all people do is #1 target ship #2 hit the orbit button #3 spam f1-f8 #4 wait for the person to die or bug out
#2 doing some thing like this would REALY put a crimp on ôjump gate 2Æsö claim to fame!! That is to say this would be a much more pilot intensive game.
My god I hope some one from CCP reads this thread
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/07/2008 23:57:18
Originally by: Rezaa [ As an idea how this would work: say a ship has a Vne rating of 5k/ms. Now if that same ship exceeds that rating it would start incurring hull damage. Now the amount of damage incurred VRS the amount of speed over the rated Vne is of course variable. And just as in real ships/aircraft some hulls are built more heavily then others.
VNE? In Space? 5km/s?
Real life comparisons are bad, particularly when comparing spaceships and aircraft... next you'll say they get heated from friction too
We just need to see how the changes pan out in actual gameplay.
Also, the throttle/etc mechanics wouldn't work in EvE. This isn't a flight sim.
No Vne in space huh? Why not? You already have speed limits. With AB's and MWD's when in actuality in space you would keep accelerating. You donÆt have drag in space and yet some thing similar is in EVE. See above posts. No one will be able to argue a direct link
A better throttle wouldnÆt work HUH? You already have one now that I would bet you never touch.
My suggestion is based in logical comparison so that people can understand it. Not a direct comparison. Obviously no one is going to compare airplanes to space craft in a direct sense. (Although they share some operational conditions such as heat generation, vibrations, structural stress, structural fatigue) But that doesnÆt mean you canÆt use an analogy from one to describe another for simplistically sake. No one says its perfect, but this idea works and it doesent screw every one.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Willow Whisp For those going over why VNE in space doesn't really work, a simple explanation is due to internal pressures of maintaining that level of thrust (i.e., vibration, structural stress, etc), and not due to friction and outside the spacecraft effects.
That would be why you would start suffering hull and module damage, but no armor / shield damage.
Exactly!!!
But I think some could argue to a little bit of armor damage since the hull is the sub straight for the armor in the first place. But thatÆs another discussion entirely
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nova Fox Well making a VNE for every ship is a monkey wrench the gears. theres about 165 pilotable ships in eve, you make VNE for each one youll have to go over extensive testing for each class, then balance it against weapon systems at various skill levels this sorta implimention is far more difficult than a simple overall class balancing and modification by family on the current nerf. Also the only other thing limited on ships are slots and calibration everything else is modifiyable stats wise, to make a point I want this game to be more like mech warrior II not mech warrior 4.
OH yes it would take diligent work on the part of CCP. Make no mistake!
But the nice part is if they screw some thing up (like thatÆs never happened before) it will only affect 1 ship that the mistake happened on. Unlike the current proposed nerf that affects EVERY one. Not to mention the huge numbers of ôOH WE DIDENT MEAN TO NERF THEM TOOö and you HAVE to know that is coming in droves! And by looking at ships in an individual bases, ships that need to stay fast can be. With out buggering up every thing else for every one else.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 00:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jack Soul Great idea.
I would love to see this, instead of the current list of nerfs / changes.
Adds something to the game, while bringing balance. Though the thresholds on each hull class would provide some discussion.
OH with out a doubt there would be discussion on thresholds.
But in my opinion VneÆs would have to be ship specific. Since even with in 1 hull type there are several different intended purposes. So I donÆt think it would be wise to just slap a Vne in a hull class with out consideration to its intended purpose.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:46:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rezaa on 29/07/2008 01:55:05
No I understood, but you are referring to 2 different game mechanics.
Sub light speeds and Faster than light speeds.
For arguments sake, presume a MICRO warp drive doesnÆt fully encapsulate the ship in a warp bubble. As such the ship is subject to normal stresses that a ship using a AB will be subject to.
But as IÆm sure every one knows nothing with mass can travel faster than light. And yet it happens time and time in game. So one would presume that FTL travel in EVE has some aspect to it that allows the ship to so with out destroying it self. IE not being subjected to rules/stresses normally associated with sub light travel. So itÆs easy to assume FTL and sub light travel are not subject to the same rules.
So it follows that a sub light Vne wouldent affect a FTL jump
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rezaa on 29/07/2008 04:31:10
Originally by: Luccul
There are some hurdles to overcome, but I like the VNE concept.
Thank you. That was the whole point of this thread. To address the speed issue without nerfing every thing back to the stone age.
I just wanted to put out a viable idea to the problem that was flexible enough to address the speed issue without ****ing off 1/2 of the EVE players.
And letÆs be bluntly honest here there are details to work out to make this a reality.
However from a conceptual point of view I really think this is a much better option than the systematic nerfing of Modules/Rigs/Base speeds/Inertia/Mass/Implants and a whole host of items I havenÆt mentioned. I mean honestly if you make that many changes how can you even begin to hope to have an idea of all of the ôunexpected consequencesö??
With a Vne in some form or another (call it what ever you will) you still may have unexpected consequences, but that will relate to 1 ship at a time instead of the EVE universe as a whole.
My only REAL hope is that a DEV or another CCP official makes a post saying ôYes we have read this.ö
ThatÆs it, even if they donÆt say any thing about whether this is a doable idea or not. All I want is for the devÆs to know about this idea. Beyond that itÆs out of my/our hands with what they decide to do.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aargh
I endorse this product/service/suggestion/organisation/womble*
Thank you, I hope CCP can get behind this too.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Draygo Korvan Technically in the real world, spacegoing objects do not have such limitation. For instance, there is no air in space to rip the wings off after you fly faster than a certain speed. Only rate of acceleration, and deceleration are limiting factors.
Please read the previous Post/Replies. The proposed Vne isnÆt based on a drag/resistance basis.
I used the example of wings ripping off of an aircraft as a analog to explain fundamentals of a Vne.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rezaa
However a Vne doesn't have to be drag related. It can be a function of heat, stress and any other number of contributing factors.
For the above reply
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:09:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Rezaa on 30/07/2008 00:11:04
Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 29/07/2008 22:43:10 Im strongly against it.
In big lag fast ships will be surely 'selfdistructed'.
Also there are no meaningful friction in deep space. At least on speeds like 10-20km/s.
Current SiSi settings are better this idea.
I disagree, as long as the pilot doesnÆt set his/her throttle above the Vne lag is a non issue.
Now of course setting the throttle above Vne you run the risk of popping youÆre self. But every pilot would know beforehand that was a risky move to start with.
HENCE one of my original statements- This would bring a new ôDecision VRS Riskö aspect to piloting a ship.
P.S. I dont expect you will be able to exceed Vne with out a MWD any ways. So Caps and AB fitted ships proly would not have to worry about it. But that would depend on the final Vne number and fitting
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:21:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Rezaa on 30/07/2008 00:22:04 Double post
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.30 01:16:00 -
[20]
Or it could be coded to respond to commanded throttle inputs VRS bumped speed. To avoid the issue of some one bumping past Vne
These are of course some of the ôdetailsö I mentioned in my previous posts. But point being I think is a much better solution than nerfing + of the game. And simultaneously utterly destroying the effort people put in to the skills/implants they have.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.30 01:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Arcane Carnage I like the idea, however I cannot justify it as this is space and in space there is no drag as someone said...:p[/quote
MY GOD PEOPLE please read.
A Vne does NOT have to be based off of drag! It can be bases off of HULL STRESS-VIBRATION-HEAT-G_LOADING! This has been said by my self and others over and over.
It can be based off of ANY THING YOU LIKE or any combination of items.
Hell you could put a Vne cap because the FUZZY DICE WILL FALL OFF! (just illustrating a point)
But a Vne follows logic, IE go to fast and your ship falls apart and you die! Simple
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.30 15:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Darth Felin Imho it is not a very good idea. Lag is a reality in EvE and it is not very good to make mechanics that depends on lag heavily.
As I said earlier, as long as the pilot doesnÆt set the throttle above Vne lag is a non issue. Also if itÆs coded to respond to commanded thrust then bumping people is a non issue too.
Of course this idea has some draw backs. But those draw backs come down to pilot decisions in how he/she wants to fly.
Now CCP doesnÆt have to take this idea verbatim. But all in all I think is a much better way to curb excessive speeds with out nerfing + the game back to the Stone Age.
Because this idea adds to the game instead of taking things away from people.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:24:00 -
[23]
Well its nice to see that this idea is generaly well recived.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Seleene Diago Better than this sweeping changes to fix a small problem that introduces a thousand new ones.
They fix a lot of problems. Ranging from small ships being useless, webs being broken, etc. We just got used to them.
WOW you have made a TON of presumptions.
And I donÆt actually feel like spending the next HR typing out how you are wrong. So IÆll just leave it there.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.08.01 04:30:00 -
[25]
Thank you I think IÆll do just that.
IÆll proly just provide a link to this thread since there is a lot of good info/discussion here.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:30:00 -
[26]
For those that are interested I started a thread over in the assembly hall in an effort to gain some exposure. ThereÆs a good discussion over there too. I should note that the discussion over in the assembly hall is more focused on the technical aspects of a Vne in space.
Assembly Hall thread
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.08.01 19:26:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 19:31:21
Originally by: Somal Thunder Edited by: Somal Thunder on 01/08/2008 18:39:10 I. People will finally use hull reppers. II. I thought VNE only applied within atmospheres where there is friction to be had. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe space is near frictionless and that is one of the reasons comets, for example, can be thousands of miles long but burn completely up in atmospheres of planets.
Somal: if you need a technical explanation as to how a Vne in space is viable Please read the other thread. I go into the fundamental basics as to why this has a basis in fact.
In a nut shell there is friction in space. But it takes a fare bit of physics knowledge to really understand it. But I did post a scientific link that explains it fairly well. And the link has a bibliography encase you doubt the articleÆs technical merit. So you can review the source data.
If you cant wrap your head around dynamical friction. Think of it this way: Remember Shoemaker/Leavy 9 that impacted Jupiter a few years back? The important thing to remember is that the comet broke up into a large number of pieces when it crossed in to JupiterÆs gravity well at very high speed.
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