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Nice guys get backstabbed, then finish last.

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Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 15:22:00 - [1] So there I was in a busy system with about 100+ or so pilots in local. I was getting the itch for some FW/PvP and I read some relieving news in local. D-bag: Hey can anyone help us break this gatecamp? Me: (Oh boy, opportune time to lend a hand) Sure, I can help. I get the fleet invite and join the crew. All from same corp, each with 2> sec status so I figured....naaa these guys gotta be legit. So we jump through the gate to low sec...nobody there. The FC asks if I know how to scan and said ya so we all go to the first planet. Soon as we get there I kind of sense some type of awkwardness. Why are all of us going to the same planet to scan? I'm in a fast stabber so I MWD a bit and do some scans and we find nothing. I was about 50km from the crew. So we warp to the next planet. This time however was a little different. I start to scan for ships and all of a sudden I hear the targeting noise. Like a nub I freak out and smash the button for the MWD. Unfortunately the stabber wasn't so fast after a web and point. Many T2 hammerheads later I was dead. Beat by 2 vexors and a rupture. Me: Damn I forgot to insure this badboy too. D-bag: Let this be a valuable lesson Lesser D-bag: PWNED! Even lesser D-bag: haha1 And then I get booted from the fleet. A valuable lesson? No. A lesson yea. (I'm sure he knows it takes about a single lvl 4 missions to fully mod and insure several cheap-o stabbers) But one thing that puzzled me. Why are you allowed to fire upon members in your own fleet? I understand you should be able to target for remote mods etc. But shouldn't shooting be disabled when in the same fleet? Either way I got a little laugh at the end of the day. Something most games rarely give.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 16:42:00 - [2] hmm, still not answers to my question. Can anyone think of a good reason fleet members should be able to fire upon each other?
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 17:07:00 - [3] Originally by: Marius Rai Originally by: Highwind Cid hmm, still not answers to my question. Can anyone think of a good reason fleet members should be able to fire upon each other? A good reason? Easy profit. Whats this...profit you speak of?
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 17:08:00 - [4] Originally by: InSession Originally by: Highwind Cid hmm, still not answers to my question. Can anyone think of a good reason fleet members should be able to fire upon each other? DaJokR already said it. You were in lowsec, fleet or not you are fair game, even if you were in the same corp they could shoot you. If it was highsec they wouldn't have been able to, they would have been concorded. If you are asking, why should fleet members be able to shoot each other then you'll need to take that question to a dev Regarding the last bit, badda-bing! Thats what I was trying to get at.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 17:48:00 - [5] Originally by: Ikvar So this is what it's like.... to get owned..... Na, I would define getting owned in this situation as in losing say a vagabond fitted with all T2, polycarb rigs etc. Now that would be ownage. Funny as I think about it, I'm pretty sure I actually made a little extra cash with this loss
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Jennifer Celeste Originally by: Highwind Cid hmm, still not answers to my question. Can anyone think of a good reason fleet members should be able to fire upon each other? even if he wasnt in your fleet...he can shoot you in low sec. what the hell are you missing about this one, you dumb shit. You my friend, are missing the point. The question at hand was should pilots in the same fleet be able to open fire upon each other. AKA fit a mechanic where you have to first disband the member from the fleet and then attack. What did this have to do with any sec? I didn't even mention sec status in my question. It dealt strictly with Fleet members opening fire upon each other. Next.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 21:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Ess Erbe Originally by: Highwind Cid The question at hand was should pilots in the same fleet be able to open fire upon each other. Why shouldn't they be able to fire upon each other? Why should they?
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 21:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Saphirre Originally by: Ess Erbe Originally by: Highwind Cid The question at hand was should pilots in the same fleet be able to open fire upon each other. Why shouldn't they be able to fire upon each other? /Signed Honestly it was a noob mistake, take your hard learned lesson and know not to do it in the future. I'm above and beyond what happened, thats fine. I just thought I might have been on to something. Something maybe the Dev's could patch in when the slow season comes. (Thats if it even exists)
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 22:50:00 - [9] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 29/07/2008 22:04:28 To reinforce my point that EVE is meant to be harsh like that i'll give you a pair of quotes from developers themselves. Word for word copy/paste Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. Rewritten from scratch. Sorry if itÆs not 100% accurate Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE wasnÆt made to look like a cold harsh world. It was meant to BE a cold harsh world. (If you don't like it) ThatÆs what Hello kitty online is for. When the devs themselves say "If you don't like it, go play a different game" you know there is no point in argueing. Check the last part of my OP. I didn't say I didn't like it, I thought I was maybe onto a missing piece of the puzzle that is EVE. It seems like I'm trying to be provoked. It seems like everyone for some reason is biased as seeing my thread as a 'whine'. It is not, I'm sorry but people need to re-adjust there whine sensors so they can properly determine a whine.Not every post containing a loss (heh, if gaining isk due to insurance is considered a "loss") is all about one. And for those that saw it as so, I'm sorry to disappoint.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:11:00 - [10] Edited by: Highwind Cid on 29/07/2008 23:11:45 Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 29/07/2008 23:09:22 Anyways, you just didn't seem to understand that EVE isn't supposed to cater to everyone. It's just not for those who are impatient and can't accept brutallity is what EVE is made of. Hence the quote "if you don't like it, go play WoW" isn't a flame. It's the cold hard truth. Do you think being able to open fire upon members in the same fleet is a little awkward?
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:25:00 - [11] I think I figured out the problem. I posted in the wrong section. This really should have been under Features and Idea's. I should have just left the entire top portion out. I have an idea, not a whine. I get it now. The initial portion was the story on how I got to my idea. But everyone mistaken that for a whine. Ha, so silly. I simply thought I found a 'glitch'. I thought common sense would say, hey don't allow people in a team/fleet to hit each other because that absolutely makes no sense what so ever and would prevent accidental aggro. I hate comparisons but to make a short one, why tackle your own men in a football game? I considered what happened a possible 'glitch'. If I was booted from fleet then blown to smitherins I never would have mentioned a word. I just thought I found a possible 'glitch'. Need a dev to move this to Features and Idea's.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Jones Bones 3 DPS heavy cruisers take out a speed tank cruiser and they say PWND? Le sigh. That and the fact I made some iskies is what made it funny
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Kirra Liu secondly eve is not a gam where youre supposed to be safe from hostility. Let me fix that. ...secondly eve is not a game where you're supposed to be safe from stupidity. Firing on your own members in a fleet is stupid. Is tackling your own members in a football game not stupid? Answer the question. Don't beat around the bush. Answer the question. Yes and no are the only valid answers. Anything else will be disregarded.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:46:00 - [14] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 29/07/2008 23:37:40 Originally by: Highwind Cid I think I figured out the problem. I posted in the wrong section. This really should have been under Features and Idea's. I should have just left the entire top portion out. I have an idea, not a whine. I get it now. The initial portion was the story on how I got to my idea. But everyone mistaken that for a whine. Ha, so silly. I simply thought I found a 'glitch'. I thought common sense would say, hey don't allow people in a team/fleet to hit each other because that absolutely makes no sense what so ever and would prevent accidental aggro. I hate comparisons but to make a short one, why tackle your own men in a football game? I considered what happened a possible 'glitch'. If I was booted from fleet then blown to smitherins I never would have mentioned a word. I just thought I found a possible 'glitch'. Need a dev to move this to Features and Idea's. I tried, but it's just obvious now. You either don't "get" EVE or you're a troll. Oh well. In the case you're not a troll I wish you luck in finding a game you will like. What' you're asking is against the entire concept of EVE. Freedom to do anything anywhere for better or worse. Riddle my this. Why can't I fly a titan to Jita and let the DD have a ball? That isn't freedom my friend. What is it?
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:54:00 - [15] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Highwind Cid Let me fix that. ...secondly eve is not a game where you're supposed to be safe from stupidity. Firing on your own members in a fleet is stupid. Is tackling your own members in a football game not stupid? Answer the question. Don't beat around the bush. Answer the question. Yes and no are the only valid answers. Anything else will be disregarded. In a football game what's good for one player is good for the rest. This is irrelevant to EVE. EVE is more like a giant tank filled with many different sharks and a few seals for good measure. The sharks may not attack each other for a bit since they want the easy kills first, but in the end it's every shark for themselves. So regarding your first bit your saying whats good for one member in a fleet is not good for the rest in a fleet. Are fleets not designed for gathering people to accomplish a goal? They are not designed to make teams and then blow each other up. Where starting to go back and forth between game mechanics and functionality of the 'tools' I consider the fleet a tool, a team.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 12:55:00 - [16] I'm stupid because I tried to implement common sense? Ya know what, forgot I even mentioned the hilarious trick or treat prank. In fact cut everything out and pretend I just mentioned the fleet as a tool. I don't care if EVE is harsh I don't care about scams(The first portion of the story was to explain how I came to the idea of the fleet friendly fire, not to cry about it, this needs to me moved to ideas and features, that was my mistake) I don't care what you ate for dinner last night. I've read the forums for a awhile now and observed you guys go about the same exact trend in other threads. You say words. Then mention something along the lines of EVE being elite. Then end it with StuFf? Or Hello Kitty online. I thought maybe possibly I was onto something. But at any rate I get the, eve is harsh blahza blah, something somethin, insert some more text here that has nothing to do my idea, etc etc. Plus I noticed how no one answered my yes or no questions. Because then they would realize. Oh, huh, that is kind of stupid thing to do. Doesn't follow the norm for common sense. Anyways let this thread go idle, get buried and eventually locked. Busts out the ol' guitar I close my eyes only for a moment and the moment's gone all my dreams pass before my eyes a curiosity dust in the wind all we are is dust in the wind
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 14:50:00 - [17] Is it common sense that corpmembers can shoot each other in highsec? No (Why would you hit your own m8? That defines stupid.) Is it ok that corpmembers can shoot each other in highsec when they created a fleet with corpmembers only?No(Again why would you hit your own m8?) Is it ok that corpmembers can shoot each other in lowsec?No(I don't see how sec status has anything to do with the fleets) Is it ok to shoot at another player in highsec?Yes(Concordoken! infact thats how I lost my first ship, now that was funny and the guy I chased gave me some start off iskies for the laughs) Is it ok to shoot at another player in lowsec?Yes Is it ok to shoot at another player?Yes Is it ok to shoot at a fleet member?No(I think the answer from me on this was massively clear) Is it ok to shoot at a non fleet member?Yes Is it ok to shoot at an alliance member?No(Again why would you shoot your own m8 on the same team? Doesn't make sense) Is it ok to shoot at a faction member? In FW no, if you mean any joe where your amarr and their amarr yes Is it ok to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?Yes(Prevents headaches, e.g. FW can get a little stupid when people in the same fleet AND militia shoot at each other. Then someone gets their panties in a bunch and tempers start flying.Not mine, I laugh because of the stupidity, even if its myself getting concordoken or tricked) Is it fun to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?No(Whoops I forgot to bring my drones in ahwell, at least the market will benefit) Is it boring to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?No.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 15:52:00 - [18] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 15:44:01 Originally by: Highwind Cid I'm stupid because I tried to implement common sense? Ya know what, forgot I even mentioned the hilarious trick or treat prank. In fact cut everything out and pretend I just mentioned the fleet as a tool. I don't care if EVE is harsh I don't care about scams(The first portion of the story was to explain how I came to the idea of the fleet friendly fire, not to cry about it, this needs to me moved to ideas and features, that was my mistake) I don't care what you ate for dinner last night. I've read the forums for a awhile now and observed you guys go about the same exact trend in other threads. You say words. Then mention something along the lines of EVE being elite. Then end it with StuFf? Or Hello Kitty online. I thought maybe possibly I was onto something. But at any rate I get the, eve is harsh blahza blah, something somethin, insert some more text here that has nothing to do my idea, etc etc. Plus I noticed how no one answered my yes or no questions. Because then they would realize. Oh, huh, that is kind of stupid thing to do. Doesn't follow the norm for common sense. Anyways let this thread go idle, get buried and eventually locked. Abridged version: I asked to change a fundimental part of EVE and lost the arguement by a wide margin. I asked a question that wasn't at all relevant to the situation and got angry when it was ignored. Instead of admitting I was wrong I'm blaming everyone else for disagreeing with me. How old are you? I hope young because if not you have no excuse for acting this way. Refusing to accept defeat is very childish. Fundamental? You think shooting others in the same fleet is fundamental part of EVE? So be it. Nobody here is on the same page other than the ones that think I'm trolling over an absolute minuscule loss.(Which I'm not) You just cant accept the fact that I'm not the typical whiner and I'm not spoon feeding you "I want my ship back", or "Dear Mr. Pirates your meany heads but if I talk sophisticated ill sound smart and tough". Besides this post has hit 50 replies. The experiment is over.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 18:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Detrol Originally by: Highwind Cid Fundamental? You think shooting others in the same fleet is fundamental part of EVE? So be it. Actually, being able to shoot anyone in Eve is a fundamental part of Eve... fleets don't have anything to do with it. Why would the game stop you from attacking a member in your own fleet? I agree with you that it is common sense NOT to shoot fleet membesr but should the game be designed such that you cannot shoot him at all? Eve has been made such that you can make terrible mistakes.... really terrible mistakes. Even more, you can't ask a GM to refund you if you made such a mistake. It's harsh... and it's that part of Eve that makes Eve so great. So yes, it should be possible to shoot your own fleet members even if it doesn't make sense, you should still be able to do so. A fleet should not protect you from the wrath of your fleet members. They will get concord after them if they shoot you in highsec, they get a 15 min agro timer if they shoot you in lowsec. Btw, you confirmed that it's no fun to play a game where players are protected from mistakes (shooting a fleet member by accident for example can be a mistake): Originally by: Highwind Cid Is it fun to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?No(Whoops I forgot to bring my drones in ahwell, at least the market will benefit) I meant to say yes on that one, at least I reflected the yes type answer in that so you don't think I'm a liar. Sorry. But finally I reached someone who came up with a really really good reply. You made good points, and provided good examples. I really don't have any points to contradict in your reply yet it wins against my argument. Thanks.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:01:00 - [20] Originally by: H Lecter Originally by: Highwind Cid yadda yadda yadda, shooting fleetmembers is bad, nobody wants to do it, change the game for me, yadda yadda yadda Please be informed that I shoot fleet members regularly. Why? Because we test our tanks, see for how much damage we can be hit at certain speeds, etc. This is what we call intended game mechanics. There is nothing broken. There will be no fix. There is only one way to avoid what happened to you - don't trust! Strange, I'm sure I mentioned several posts above I've been convinced why shooting members of the same fleet works. Yet you still go on, as well as the other couple posters above. Do you think I changed my mind overnight? If so (I didn't) how would you know since I haven't even posted since my mine was changed? I did not ask for a fix. I simply mentioned an idea and why does it work the way it does. A person above posted an explanation that I had no arguments against yet still was able to 'win' my argument. I did however have some awesome Penna Pasta with squash and rather spicy red sauce the other day. Now thats something to talk about.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:17:00 - [21] Edited by: Highwind Cid on 31/07/2008 16:17:21 B. I've actually seen this happen not too long ago, was pretty amusing. He was from a different fleet, but I get the idea of how lame it would be, being unable to blow the thieves up. Even though in the same fleet/alliance/milita C. I noted I know being able to target is necessary for helpful mods. D. Aha! I must have put the ol' never tell me this again a long time ago because I never received the warning. It must have been when I first started I put the ignore deal on for that and probably forgot all about it... Point D hits Highwind Cid perfectly, wrecking him for massive amounts of looking stupid. Nothing to see hear people, move along.

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