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cptgone
Baptism oF Fire
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:10:00 -
[1]
I just read a nice article on griefing:
Griefer - Making People Cry Over Pixels I
It contains some contradictions that left me intrigued.
1) grief
- the author claims to enjoy causing harm and inflicting grief in-game,
- in real life, he claims to refrain from such acts on ethical grounds,
- in Eve, he "leaves his ethics at the door."
He justifies that by suggesting that the harm he causes isnĘt real ū yet at the same time, heĘs only in it for that very harm, and the tears it causes.
("you've just cost someone anywhere from fifteen minutes to an hour of work, and the tears tend to flow plentifully", "griefing is inflicting harm upon others, not primarily for monetary gain, but for the enjoyment of the harm being inflicted on the victim. In essence, it is sadistic")
2) scamming
The author prides himself in not being a scammer or liar in-game. He acts "sadistic, as opposed to merely being selfish"
So, either he finds scamming and lying not to be fun, or unethical, i dunno.
3) ethics
"in-game actions are not related to your personality or ethics outside of the game, unless you want them to be."
In a game like Eve, harm is very real. Eve is not just a game, but a virtual reality, in which people make huge efforts, either to create or to destroy. The above quote is therefor, IMHO, simply not true: your personality defines what you enjoy, your ethics (and empathy) define what your conscience will let you get away with.
---
Any thoughts? |
DubanFP
Caldari
Out of Order
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 16:14:40
 Originally by: cptgone
Any thoughts?
nm let me edit. I get this better now
_______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
Hanso Sparxx
We The People
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:37:00 -
[3]
EvE is a game.
Ships are ment to be destroyed.
ISK is ment to be parted from the stupid.
Tears are ment to be LOL.
------------------
We the People is recruiting! |
Grandis Fustis
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:38:00 -
[4]
One thing that contributes to scamming is greed. Most of the time when someone gets scammed they are chasing a good deal. If it seems to good to be true it probly is.
stop your whining have fun with the griefers and scammers just dont be so stupid to fall into the trap.
P.S EVE HAS NO RELATION TO REAL LIFE OR ELSE WHEN I GOT INTO A CAR ACCIDENT I WOULD TRY TO SPAM WARP MY POD
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:39:00 -
[5]
Troll. 0/10, we had one of these yesterday.
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Kirra Liu
Echelon Holdings
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:40:00 -
[6]
I agree with Duban, scamming an griefing is part of eve, just as mining and ratting is part of the game. Some people get their kicks from other peoples missery so to speak, and this is no different from shootin someones brains out in Call of duty, ok people spend time working for their assets in eve but they should also spend time protecting those assets aswell.
If I shoot someone and I feel like they arent being complete ****s then I will give them some advice as to how to prevent it from happening again.Well if I have the time anyways.
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kublai
Caldari
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:43:00 -
[7]
You can't be a hero without a villain, and if that villain could be beat by just any chump named legoleet how could you EVER feel special?
CCP should start paying me tbh.
A-War Recruiting |
Kryss Stevenson
GMS Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:44:00 -
[8]
The age old ethics question about playing gamesą.
EVE is a game and we all play roles in it. None of us are real life space ship pilot ( I might be wrong in that if an astronaut plays this game also) We choose to follow one patch or the other and we can switch it at anytime.
PeopleĘs ethics are different when they donĘt see people face to face hence the mentality of it not hurting someone. That is the beauty of the internet.
If you think that a personĘs personality dictates how they play a character in a game you are sadly mistaken or I will be really scared about the world as we know it. I heard a rumor that there is a bunch of RL cops playing this game and you knową.. They play pirates, at least some of them. So in real life they would want to pull someone over in their nice BMW and gank them and loot the wreck?
Nah, I donĘt think so. We play the way we do because WE like to play that way if some one gets emotionally hurt because some pixels got blown up they donĘt understand games to begin with and are taking this way too seriously.
Fly what you can afford to loose is a very useful rule to live by if you follow that and it gets blown up you can laugh about it.
If you want to treat this as the real world, well then, would you walk down a dark alley in any city in the world? No? Well the same applies to EVE.
High sec ganking? Sure it is allowed and yeah it sucks when it happens to you, but you get kill rights on them when they blow your ship up. Do we have that in the real world? Nope.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 16:19:34
Originally by: cptgone
the author claims to enjoy causing harm and inflicting grief in-game,
The only people who get angry about a game like EVE are the ones who let themselves get angry. Once they let themselves get angry they forfiet the respect, in my eye, that would make me not try to anger them. If I kill someone and they act cool about it they have that respect that means i'll go out of my way and teach them how to avoid such a fate in the future. If they let themselves get angry, quite immaturely in a game like EVE, then I won't hold back.
Basically the only ones who deserve grief are the ones that let themselves get it.
Ditto
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Market Madam
New Nova Trade And Production
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:08:00 -
[10]
I scam because I'm a serial killer IRL, I do it to inflict pain and suffering upon my helpless victims. It brings me great pleasure knowing I screwed some ****** over.
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cptgone
Baptism oF Fire
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kryss Stevenson
EVE is a game and we all play roles in it.
true, but this thread is not about role playing. the author i quoted doesn't RP griefing, he simply enjoys it.
Originally by: Kryss Stevenson
PeopleĘs ethics are different when they donĘt see people face to face hence the mentality of it not hurting someone.
great point, i think you're right.
Originally by: Kryss Stevenson
If you think that a personĘs personality dictates how they play a character in a game you are sadly mistaken
i don't. but, if one doesn't have any sadistic tendencies, one won't enjoy causing grief in random strangers just for fun.
BTW, i'm perfectly happy with the fact that griefing and scamming are allowed in Eve.
And i do agree we shouldn't take this virtual reality too seriously. |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:27:00 -
[12]
I hear 'real pvp' only happens in 0.0.
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Thak Navari
Caldari
Uneasy Corp
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:50:00 -
[13]
Originally by: kublai
You can't be a hero without a villain, and if that villain could be beat by just any chump named legoleet how could you EVER feel special?
CCP should start paying me tbh.
You want to know about scamming ask Kublai, the master of scamming ppl is only a message away. Though it might cost you for Kublai to tell you anything.
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Orar Ironfist
Toys R Us
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Omarvelous
I hear 'real pvp' only happens in 0.0.
That doesnt even apply to this thread you terrible poster.
Tbh had you said something along the lines of "greifers are lame and ruin gameplay experience for us carebears while we try and farm isk" then youd be right.
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Round House
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Orar Ironfist
Originally by: Omarvelous
I hear 'real pvp' only happens in 0.0.
That doesnt even apply to this thread you terrible poster.
Tbh had you said something along the lines of "greifers are lame and ruin gameplay experience for us carebears while we try and farm isk" then youd be right.
You ever herd the saying "it's better to be thought a moron then to open your mouth and remove all doudt"
Omar's post was dead on and i dont feel the need to explain what he meant just the need to reticule your ignorent post. Good day sir
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Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: cptgone
In a game like Eve, harm is very real. Eve is not just a game, but a virtual reality, in which people make huge efforts, either to create or to destroy. The above quote is therefor, IMHO, simply not true: your personality defines what you enjoy, your ethics (and empathy) define what your conscience will let you get away with.
---
Any thoughts?
Eve is not real, and does not have repurcussions - both for victim and the 'offender' that even approaches anything of the magnitude. One cannot truly go bankrupt in Eve, nor is there a system of 'credit' which can screw you over when things go bad. It is a game where you can press a 'reset' button and revert things - more or less - back to clean state, should one so desire.
As in : you can start again in Eve, at any time you please, for any reason you please. I can reprocess my main and start again as a different 'persona' should I so desire in Eve.
All of which you cannot do in real life. Had credit history ruined before? Want to start again from scratch? You'll find that Eve is very, very forgiving world, and people need to harden the **** up.
---------------------
Lag in Motsu or other hubs? Can't bear it and want to change? Remember : YOU are part of the problem!
Gave stuff away. Waiting for sub. to run out. |
Jodi Goulsti
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:35:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Jodi Goulsti on 30/07/2008 18:35:23
Originally by: Round House
You ever herd the saying "it's better to be thought a moron then to open your mouth and remove all doudt"
Omar's post was dead on and i dont feel the need to explain what he meant just the need to reticule your ignorent post. Good day sir
This post is chock-full of sweet, sweet irony.
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soldieroffortune 258
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:41:00 -
[18]
e-thhh-ickss???
word does not compute
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:57:00 -
[19]
Oh goody...another one.
I'll take:
2xCheeseburgers (no pickle...and yes I can have it my way because I'm the customer)
1xRegular Fry
1xMcSalad (Oil&Vinegar...haha)
1xMcWater
To go please. And would you mind swabbing out the toilets as someone used a Sociology/Psychology degree to wipe with and it seems to have become stuck to the bottom of my shoe  .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Avan Sercedos
A-1 Bonding
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:01:00 -
[20]
A lack of ethics?!?!
Not in MY internet spaceship land!!!
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Round House
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jodi Goulsti
Edited by: Jodi Goulsti on 30/07/2008 18:35:23
Originally by: Round House
You ever herd the saying "it's better to be thought a moron then to open your mouth and remove all doudt"
Omar's post was dead on and i dont feel the need to explain what he meant just the need to reticule your ignorent post. Good day sir
This post is chock-full of sweet, sweet irony.
seems yours is too. 
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Pod Six Research
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:01:00 -
[22]
I used to have a carebearish attitude, fomented by other games, where such things were more in line with the game mechanics- not a bash on being a "carebear", as I think it's a completely valid playstyle, which I engage in in some games.
Here's what I've learned in my time in EVE, and what I've come to realize. EVE as a game is not really about protecting your playstyle, regardless of what it is. Carebears, miners, pirates, homicidal maniacs, "griefers", 0.0 dwellers and everyone else- it doesn't matter. Your playstyle is perfectly valid, and is as much of a target as anyone else. You don't get any special protection, but you also don't get any special help.
THAT's what EVE really is. Questions about ethics and morals have to be differently structured if you want them to have any meaning. Most reasonable people don't ask if the average player of GTA is a mass murdering criminal or even if they have such inclinations. It's a game, and the rules of the game are that you take on that role.
It's the same thing in EVE, except that there's many roles you can take on.
Complaining about griefing in EVE is like whining when someone forks your queen and rook in chess. You're complaining about something that's an element of the game, not an external mechanic brought into it to make you unhappy. It is what it is- they're not being "bad" or "evil" or anything, they're just part of the game, as are you. If you don't like that, maybe you should try a different part of it.
Personally, when I'm carebearing, I love the fact that I have to watch my ass. I mean, mining or missioning would be really boring if there wasn't some element of risk to it- even in highsec you have to watch out for canflippers. I've never lost a ship to a player in this game and I've spent a lot of time in dangerous places doing stuff that the locals didn't like. I've never been much of a PVPer (so far, which I'm going to change shortly with a new corp), but that's OK too- I count the kind of stuff I do as PVP. Cat and mouse is a game, even for the mouse ;). I can tell you that when I do lose a ship (or pod) to a pirate, ganker, suicider, what have you, I won't complain about it- I'll buy a new bloody ship and get back to having fun.
When something "bad" happens in the game (and even the "bad" things are "good" in a game, right?), if you let it make you unhappy, you should examine your own choices within the game, or even if it's the right game for you. People who take on a role within the rules aren't abusing you (excepting those who use exploits, which is a different issue), they're playing by the rules.
Having said all that, if the only reason you play any game is to make other people unhappy then you're kind of sad. If you really need that kind of gratification, why bother using a game as a shim? You can inflict a lot more harm in person, even without risking jail.
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters
DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.30 20:56:00 -
[23]
ccp should remove concord
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Avan Sercedos
A-1 Bonding
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
ccp should remove concord
This.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Pod Six Research
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:25:00 -
[25]
Removing CONCORD would pretty much drive out the PVE and mining types, unbalancing the scales toward one set of playstyles at the expense of others. It might be fun for a while but pretty soon hisec would be as barren as most lowsec systems and subscriptions would vanish- it just wouldn't be fun for a lot of people.
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Demitria Fernir
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
concord should remove ccp
10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001
I will Conquer My Signature
Somewhere in the future
10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101001 |
Nexus Kinnon
A Few Good Men.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 21:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Demitria Fernir
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
concord should remove ccp
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Xzar Fyrarr
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon
Originally by: Demitria Fernir
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
concord should remove ccp
No Donuts For Demz!
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Liz Laser
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:07:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Liz Laser on 30/07/2008 22:11:11
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
ccp should remove concord
There are games (and servers of games) with FFA PvP and no NPC punishment.
Yet we play Eve, instead of them.
My guess is that the presence of Condord serves everyone, (even the yarr  crowd).
Otherwise we'd be posturing on the forums for those FFA PvP servers and games, instead of posturing here.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.30 22:40:00 -
[30]
Originally by: cptgone
I just read a nice article on griefing:
Griefer - Making People Cry Over Pixels I
It contains some contradictions that left me intrigued.
1) grief
- the author claims to enjoy causing harm and inflicting grief in-game,
- in real life, he claims to refrain from such acts on ethical grounds,
- in Eve, he "leaves his ethics at the door."
He justifies that by suggesting that the harm he causes isnĘt real ū yet at the same time, heĘs only in it for that very harm, and the tears it causes.
("you've just cost someone anywhere from fifteen minutes to an hour of work, and the tears tend to flow plentifully", "griefing is inflicting harm upon others, not primarily for monetary gain, but for the enjoyment of the harm being inflicted on the victim. In essence, it is sadistic")
2) scamming
The author prides himself in not being a scammer or liar in-game. He acts "sadistic, as opposed to merely being selfish"
So, either he finds scamming and lying not to be fun, or unethical, i dunno.
3) ethics
"in-game actions are not related to your personality or ethics outside of the game, unless you want them to be."
In a game like Eve, harm is very real. Eve is not just a game, but a virtual reality, in which people make huge efforts, either to create or to destroy. The above quote is therefor, IMHO, simply not true: your personality defines what you enjoy, your ethics (and empathy) define what your conscience will let you get away with.
---
Any thoughts?
In most games, you get a cut-scene telling you that the evil so-and-so's actions leave you saddened and angry, vowing revenge for his misdeeds. Or something. I always skip to the end tbh.
In EvE, you hate so-and-so's guts. You want him dead. The very mention of his name induces barely controllable anger. The mere fact of his existences gnaws at your happiness, and you will never, ever forgive him.
I don't know where CCP find all these guys who act as villains so well, or how they manage to pay them out of my 15 euro a month, but man, EvE has the BEST NPCS!
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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