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Missiles vs. Turrets should be balanced in PVE as well as PVP.

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Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:16:00 - [61] Originally by: Vision Threads Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15 Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not really trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do. I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes. You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines. The Raven can need some rebalancing for PvE (not PvP, so I don't know what could be done). The Drake losing DPS would make it a useless brick. Originally by: Gamesguy the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:30:00 - [62] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Vision Threads Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15 Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not really trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do. I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes. You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines. The Raven can need some rebalancing for PvE (not PvP, so I don't know what could be done). The Drake losing DPS would make it a useless brick. No it just means you might have to fit BCUs and not be able to devote all your low slots to an easy level 4 survivable passive tank. But then BC's are not really meant to be easy level 4 ships, this would bring Caldari on a level field with other races.
Bobbechk The Handsome Boy Modeling School	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:01:00 - [63] this
gludius maxximus	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:05:00 - [64] I am a little confused the majority of pve players fly ravens so we are going to nerf missiles which are the primary weapons system for all caldari ships? Because anything everyone is using is a bad thing so would that mean that the primary ship in each race should be nerfed since it has the largest percentage of use by is race? or that which ever weapons system has the highest percentage of use for each race needs to be nerfed. Sounds like anything someone else is using should be nerfed. Or best of all just give us all one ship and one weapons system and one type of augment and we will all have equal equipment the game will su@#$%^& but hey all is even then except then we are all in the same ship so it will need to be nerfed as everyone flies the same one. O I see this as a never ending nerf fest sounds like a new game to me. I do understand if something is to strong or to weak it needs to be adjusted to balance the playing field. As I do not fly a raven I prefer not to fly what everyone else is flying even if it is suppose to be top dog in pve. I fly a Nighthawk so why do I get nerfed for all the raven pilots? if you nerf missiles?
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:00:00 - [65] I wonder why ppl are allways complaining about Ravens dealing too much dps. Torp Raven with 3xBCU II and max Skills= 1000 DPS 1000 DPS is nothing the other races would not be able to reach if they fit enough damage mods. But most people prefer a Tank with a shitload of HP and high resistances. Now you are saying again that a raven can still put on a decent tank while dealing a lot of damage. Yes a raven can tank quite some damage if you use all your midslots for your tank, just it wont run an XL-Shield Booster for very long then. So you encounter my high dps + strong tank raven which might possibly kick your ass. Oh wait, i do not have a scrambler fitted. You simply warp away. Other Scenario: I have a scrambler fitted but no web. You will outrun me and still get away before you explode. Next Scenario: I have a scrambler, a cap injector, a web and an mwd fitted. Now i can keep you where you are but sadly I dont have any buffer tank no resistances and my shield booster wont change a lot now. So your 500dps 200k EHP battleship which is tackling / webbing maybe also neuting me is melting my overpowered Raven. So much for the Torp Raven. Cruise Missile Raven: DPS is Pathetic.. again with 3xBCU II it deals 440 dps from missiles (Hell yeah thats a lot for a ship with 3 damage mods). Even the Tempest ppl keep complaining about deals more damage on long range while it does not need to wait for 20 - 30 seconds until their shots finaly hit. As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:13:00 - [66] ow fail jim is back http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:18:00 - [67] Edited by: Jim Hazard on 13/08/2008 19:33:55 Originally by: Kalintos Tyl ow fail jim is back http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC and where in my post did I say anything about drakes? I was just talking about the Raven, many people keep complaining about. Nothing else. edit: after taking a look at your little picture there i can not see what you are complaining about. With that setup the drake will not have a chance. Since the 2 heavy neuts will switch off the drakes invuls pretty fast which means the total EHP drop down to 64k and the defense drops down to 104 (which is not a constant value, but the value at the peak recharge rate only) while the tempest will have no problems to keep the cap up and will tank away 274 dps constantly -> Tempest wins. Also the Tempest will get some more dps when you use 2 Heavy drones 2 med drones + 1 small drone instead of 5 meds ;).
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.13 23:33:00 - [68] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl ow fail jim is back http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC You TOOL! Firstly, the drake is full of damage mods, and the tempest isn't. Secondly, look at the top right - THAT FIT DOESN'T WORK! Not enough powergrid. Thirdly... everything is overheated on both ships. This is a completely bullshit fit. The drake fit is impossible, and there is no webber on the drake, but there is a webber on the tempest. Whatever point you are trying to make, you fail. Regarding missiles... if CCP think they need nerfing, they will get nerfed and people with have to adapt... but don't suggest that a drake is superior to a tempest - you look like a total fool when you do that. NO-ONE would swap their tempest for a drake.
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.14 01:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.14 02:24:00 - [70] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here. Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5 Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3 Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1 Torpedos = Rank 4 Cruise Missiles = Rank 5 Heavy Missiles = Rank 3 Standard Missiles = Rank 1 Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons. T2 Pulse Lasor: Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k = 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses T2 Torps: Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k Torpedos 5 = 1.024k Standard Missiles 3 = 24k Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k = 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.08.14 04:12:00 - [71] Originally by: Jim Hazard 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps That comparison is completely invalid. To be able to use all T2 Beams and all T2 Pulse lasers, with large specializations at IV, it would cost just under 5 mil SPs. For the equivalent in missiles, with all specializations at IV, it costs more than 6.25 mil SPs. It would do you well to not look at only one side of the equation. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 04:26:00 - [72] Originally by: Lili Lu Yes, the nano nerf has exposed how the game is marginally caldari online and would definitely become caldari online if no other changes were made in conjunction with the nano nerf. Too many players imo start Caldari to make easy PVE money with drakes and then ravens. Why, not just because of the PVE missile advantages already listed in this thread, but because the overpowered passive shield tank on the drake can survive level 4 missions with comparatively little sp investment. And then those relatively newb players decide they want to complete level 4s faster, so they upgrade to the cruise raven that can be fit, albeit expensively, with a similarly overpowered active tank. Then those PVE players decide to try PVP in their ravens and drakes WITH THE SAME FITTINGS. OMGWTF my Caldari ships can't PVP. I always survive PVE missions, but now this PVP is not fair. My missiles take forever to reach the target, my overpowered shield tank leaves me no mid slots to tackle, and what's this if i get primaried my passive tank drake lasts longer than any other ship but i still die in the end WHAAAAAAAA Caldari players you have PVP options !!!!! Examples - The Cerb is a missile PVP force to be reckoned with. You have turret boats too! For example, take the Rokh. The Rokh is the longest range sniper! You may even be able to use higher damage ammo at lesser sniper ranges compared to other rail boats! Also, try dropping one rediculously easy to fit LSE on your Drake for a point! Learn what every other race ship has to learn for close range combat, you have to make some sacrifices in tank to fit for close range gank. Damage mods go in low slots, that means less tank for armor, yeah the few mid slots are free for tackle. Similar tradeoff with Caldari ships, you sacrifice tank to fit tackle in the mids, but little sacrifice to fitting the low slot damage mods. And learn that PVP is about getting blown up sometimes! Only PVE is predictable and minimally risky for getting blown up. Well, yeah this is a bit of a troll reply, because no matter how i say it Caldari centric players will flame. So here's my disclaimer - I have 3 accounts, one flys Minmatar and Amarr, another flys Gallente and a little Caldari, and the last so far flys Caldari only. I've used every class of weapons in the game, light to heavy and sentry drones, small rail projectile and laser to large, and rockets to cruise and torp, every ew in the game (i'll leave the caldari supremacy in ew out of this thread ) The only class of ships i haven't flown are dictors and caps. Caldari is far from the weakest or hardest to train in every category, in fact it is often the strongest and easiest. So yeah, I agree with the OP and see this missile rebalancing due to the nano-nerf as much needed balancing. Some of the Caldari centric players need to learn a harsh CCP/eve lesson. It pays to have every character train two races of ships. Sooner or later the nerf bat hits your race. And I have whined just like you when I was initially an Amarr-centric player. Boy did I whine (and I still whine ). But after 2 yrs+ of playing you realize, there is a cycle to the nerf/buff bat in this game. Best to have a fallback race to fly if you detest what CCP has/is going to do to your favorite race of ships, or suck it up and make the best with what's left. Cladari will be fine even if missiles get nerfed. Still the best ewar, still rediculous tanks, still the longest range gun snipers. And PVE will become more of a challenge, which is a good thing. Just be glad you didn't have to start out your level 3 careers in a Prophecy or Cyclone (no Harbingers or Hurricanes existed) or Level 4s in the old Apoc Things will be ok even if they will no longer be easy mode. /signed caldari/minmatar fleet pilot.... caldari are awesome in fleet work, and in pve, not so good in solo but soon to be decent there from nano nerf if it goes through.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.14 04:41:00 - [73] Edited by: Jim Hazard on 14/08/2008 04:44:15 Originally by: Allen Ramses Originally by: Jim Hazard 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps That comparison is completely invalid. To be able to use all T2 Beams and all T2 Pulse lasers, with large specializations at IV, it would cost just under 5 mil SPs. For the equivalent in missiles, with all specializations at IV, it costs more than 6.25 mil SPs. It would do you well to not look at only one side of the equation. Well, yes if you really need to be able to use all kinds of missiles you will need quite some SPs in the end. I would not mind if the Total amount of SPs needed to use all the Weapons would be lowered for missiles. But look at it from this perspective: Not every1 wants to specialise to fly ships of every size. Lets say we got 2 Pilots here who only want to Specialise for Battleship sized Ships. Pilot A is a missile user. Pilot B wants to fly ships which use Turrets. Pilot A is rdy to use t2 BS weapons within 1 month. Pilot B needs 3 month to get there. -> unbalanced. edit: I do not really care a lot about that myself... i got all the gunnery skills for my ships maxed out. My point just is that it appears to be kind of unfair to be forced to train skills you are not planning to use in the near future while others can go straight for the Weapons they want.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.08.14 04:55:00 - [74] Well, that is granted. CCP even themselves stated that they wished it had been done differently. But back when missiles were being created, they were specialty weapons. There were literally no relationships between torps and rockets, for example. Hell, there was no relationship between torps and anything, for that matter. The skill set for them was created LONG before the natural evolution of guided and unguided missiles came to be. With the standardization of missile usage, the introduction of HAMs, and finally the nerf/buff to torps, it would have made sense to make the prerequisites identical to turret systems. However, these changes were made long after the game went live, and it's far too late to change any of that now. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.14 07:36:00 - [75] Here are the sums of the ranks of the skills in the missile and gunnery skill trees, split into weapons and support skills: Missile weapon skills: 50 Turret weapon skills: 41 Missile support skills: 26 (24 if you exclude Defenders) Gunnery support skills: 18 Training missiles takes significantly longer than training a turret skill tree. And there's no transferable skills with missiles, like Rapid Firing, that applies to all three turret trees.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:33:00 - [76] Originally by: Jim Hazard Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here. Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5 Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3 Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1 Torpedos = Rank 4 Cruise Missiles = Rank 5 Heavy Missiles = Rank 3 Standard Missiles = Rank 1 Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons. T2 Pulse Lasor: Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k = 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses T2 Torps: Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k Torpedos 5 = 1.024k Standard Missiles 3 = 24k Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k = 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:40:00 - [77] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Jim Hazard Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here. Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5 Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3 Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1 Torpedos = Rank 4 Cruise Missiles = Rank 5 Heavy Missiles = Rank 3 Standard Missiles = Rank 1 Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons. T2 Pulse Lasor: Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k = 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses T2 Torps: Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k Torpedos 5 = 1.024k Standard Missiles 3 = 24k Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k = 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ... Raven wins. Duh... [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:46:00 - [78] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Jim Hazard Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here. Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5 Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3 Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1 Torpedos = Rank 4 Cruise Missiles = Rank 5 Heavy Missiles = Rank 3 Standard Missiles = Rank 1 Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons. T2 Pulse Lasor: Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k = 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses T2 Torps: Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k Torpedos 5 = 1.024k Standard Missiles 3 = 24k Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k = 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ... Raven wins. Duh... fittings please ... and numbers ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:47:00 - [79] Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 14/08/2008 08:47:33 Originally by: oilio Originally by: Kalintos Tyl ow fail jim is back http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC You TOOL! Firstly, the drake is full of damage mods, and the tempest isn't. Secondly, look at the top right - THAT FIT DOESN'T WORK! Not enough powergrid. Thirdly... everything is overheated on both ships. This is a completely bullshit fit. The drake fit is impossible, and there is no webber on the drake, but there is a webber on the tempest. Whatever point you are trying to make, you fail. Regarding missiles... if CCP think they need nerfing, they will get nerfed and people with have to adapt... but don't suggest that a drake is superior to a tempest - you look like a total fool when you do that. NO-ONE would swap their tempest for a drake. o realy? drake have mroe ehp,dps,tank. i dont neeed weber (talking baout speed nerf). And you suck at pvp already, becosue you dont know magic things like implnats to powergrid. Get lost. It will fit with awu 4 and 5% pg implant. You fail.
Dr Clay	Posted - 2008.08.14 10:09:00 - [80] The answer is to make rockets the PvP missile.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.14 10:38:00 - [81] Originally by: Lili Lu Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Vision Threads Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15 Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not really trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do. I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes. You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines. The Raven can need some rebalancing for PvE (not PvP, so I don't know what could be done). The Drake losing DPS would make it a useless brick. No it just means you might have to fit BCUs and not be able to devote all your low slots to an easy level 4 survivable passive tank. But then BC's are not really meant to be easy level 4 ships, this would bring Caldari on a level field with other races. I use 3 BCU, don't assume so much. And generally don't use a drake for Level 4. Originally by: Gamesguy the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: murder one Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Jim Hazard Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Jim Hazard As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles. IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill. Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here. Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5 Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3 Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1 Torpedos = Rank 4 Cruise Missiles = Rank 5 Heavy Missiles = Rank 3 Standard Missiles = Rank 1 Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons. T2 Pulse Lasor: Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k = 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses T2 Torps: Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k Torpedos 5 = 1.024k Standard Missiles 3 = 24k Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k = 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ... Raven wins. Duh... fittings please ... and numbers ... Since i am to lazy now to calculate it exactly I am just gonna give you a description... At that point the Raven would win. Why? quite simple. Without the support skills trained the geddon will not deal enough damage to break through the Ravens tank, whereas the geddon relies on a passive tank which slowly will crumble while the raven keeps shooting it. Active tank instead on the geddon? No way... a single repper is not able to compensate that kind of damage and a dualrep tank does not run very long on a ship which is using laser turrets (not even with a cap injector). At an early stage Torps are a lot more useful than any other Battleship sized Weapon. Which results in a Low SP missile user being in an advantage over a Turret user with 3x as much SP for his weapons. At a later point the Geddon will win because the Raven will not be able to outtank the geddon anymore. The geddon will loose a lot of hitpoints, but a high damage buffer tanked BS will allways win vs an active tanked BS.
Vision Threads	Posted - 2008.10.27 03:00:00 - [83] "Heh"

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