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Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Vision Threads on 30/07/2008 16:39:14
The raven is the de facto PVE ship. It is by far the most widely-used ship both for missions and for ratting. When one ship becomes so clearly the best ship for large segments of the game, it's time to look into it. Happily the PVP rebalancing of missiles should accomplish that nicely.
One reason for the raven's popularity is that its damage bonuses apply equally to every damage type. But if you're fighting, say, Guristas (weak to kinetic), then why aren't rails just as good an option? Because of the poor effectiveness of rails against NPC frigates, cruisers and fast-moving, close-range NPC battleships when compared to missiles. Because of turret tracking, basically.
Everyone is now realizing how unbalanced cruise missiles are for PVP. There's no reason that a cruise missile should have such an easy time hitting a post-speed-nerf MWD HAC when, say, large artillery track them so poorly. Both cruises and large artillery are "long range" BS-class weapons.
The same thing applies to PVE. A big reason that ravens dominate PVE is because cruise missiles are so effective versus NPC frigates, cruisers, and fast battleships. When I'm ratting, why can I so easily one-volley any frigate that's on me? A rokh couldn't rack those frigates. It's just as imbalanced in PVE as it is in PVP.
And I'm not even going to go into the smaller missile ships that dominate PVE: The caracal and the drake. But they benefit from the exact same imbalances.
This is one more reason that missiles need to be looked at. Just like missile ships shouldn't be the I-Win ships for PVP, they also shouldn't be the king of PVE. Let the balancing commence.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:51:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Vision Threads
This is one more reason that missiles need to be looked at. Just like missile ships shouldn't be the I-Win ships for PVP, they also shouldn't be the king of PVE. Let the balancing commence.
Hold the soap!
Practically half of EVE plays PvE. Thats 15k of the normally 30k on at any one time. Thats 100+k users from the 200+k total subscriptions currently active.
(numbers may be off, going off with what I remember)
You even change a little bit of how such PvE runs for half of EVE, you'd have people responding with whines, and their wallets.
CCP isnt stupid. Changing missiles to be inneffective in PvE (of which they've been strong at for so long, they're a standard) as well as PvP (as a response to speed nerfs) would basically kill half of EVE, and put CCP without half its income. Bit extreme, but you see the point here.
Dont touch PvE, do touch PvP.
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Elaine Celeste
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Posted - 2008.07.30 16:52:00 -
[3]
Shhh, nobody's crying about Ravens being too good in pve because, well, npc rats don't really cry all that much.
But yeah, since the raven is pretty much the best npc killer out there it's just about time to nerf it, since, according to CCP, if everybody does it, it must be nerfed.
Eve: Bricks in space
CELESTE LOTTERIES |
Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:17:00 -
[4]
Heh, I'd like to see the solution whereby CCP diminishes the effectiveness of cruise missiles versus cruisers in PVP but leaves that exact same capability alone for PVE.
Similarly heavy missiles versus frigates. How in the world do you think that a drake is going to be hot stuff for running level 3 misions with tons of frigates, but magically not be able to hit any frigates in PVP. There's just no way to have cake and eat it too.
It's going to be pretty nice to dock in Torrinos without seeing a dozen ravens flying in and out of the station. To be able to go ratter-hunting and find something other than ravens. Finally that monoculture will be broken and this game will have some variety.
I'm really looking forward to these missile nerfs, despite having caldari BS 4.
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Maeltstome
Minmatar
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:30:00 -
[5]
Imo, explosion radius should be heftier for penalties - and increase the sig on missiles.
I've been intended to write a thread on this to highlight it: So many carebears whien about the latest PVP trend, but eve PVE is basically raven or GTFO. My caldari pilot can perma run his shield booster and is effective to 100k with his cruise missiles. I'm not kidding when i say it's a play Afk ship.
Show some balls dev dudes, and prove that equality isn't just abut when it suits the forum wh*res - this should have been looked at a long time ago.
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[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5
[12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Kenji Kikuta
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:38:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Kenji Kikuta on 30/07/2008 17:40:34
Missile boats are typically given a boost only to missile kinetic damage. Examples are:
Kestrel (frigate)
Hawk (af)
Caracal (cruiser)
Cerberus (hac)
Drake (battlecruiser)
Nighthawk (commandship).
Why this rule doesn't apply to the Raven/Golem I have no idea.
Changing the general damage boost to only apply for kinetic missiles would make the pride of Caldari ships, i.e. raven hull ships, still very viable for their nemesis (Guristas). Imo, as it should be.
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khosta
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
Hold the soap!
Practically half of EVE plays PvE. Thats 15k of the normally 30k on at any one time. Thats 100+k users from the 200+k total subscriptions currently active.
(numbers may be off, going off with what I remember)
You even change a little bit of how such PvE runs for half of EVE, you'd have people responding with whines, and their wallets.
CCP isnt stupid. Changing missiles to be inneffective in PvE (of which they've been strong at for so long, they're a standard) as well as PvP (as a response to speed nerfs) would basically kill half of EVE, and put CCP without half its income. Bit extreme, but you see the point here.
Dont touch PvE, do touch PvP.
Woaah hold it there soldier. Are you suggesting that because a large percent of people use missiles that it is reasonable they should be overpowered relative to other less used weapon types?
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: khosta
Woaah hold it there soldier. Are you suggesting that because a large percent of people use missiles that it is reasonable they should be overpowered relative to other less used weapon types?
considering where its used (PvE. Seriously, think about it. Not everyone playing EVE is a blood-on-hands PvPer. Heck, some people dont even touch anything related to weapons unless its aimed at a rat), and its use to begin with. Yes.
You realize how finicky people are when you change their favorite toy into something even 1% less than it was?
Whilst I totally see, and support, the idea that Ravens shouldnt be the be-all-end-all in PvE, we're basically talking about roughly half of CCP's potential income here. Thats a big issue in itself.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:07:00 -
[9]
this is really just a matter of, if you **** in my cherrios, im gonna pee in your wheaties.
But I totally see where the OP is coming from, When anything becomes the "De Facto" method of doing anything it needs to be changed right? This is why CCP nerfed speed the first time, Why they nerfed NOS, And why they are nerfing speed again. So CCP really needs to stick to their guns.
The thing i love most about missiles, is that the only counter for them requiures a empty highslot missile launcher hardpoint, Where as every other form of weapon countering (TD's, RSD, ECM) is midslots, and they actually work.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
Originally by: khosta
Woaah hold it there soldier. Are you suggesting that because a large percent of people use missiles that it is reasonable they should be overpowered relative to other less used weapon types?
considering where its used (PvE. Seriously, think about it. Not everyone playing EVE is a blood-on-hands PvPer. Heck, some people dont even touch anything related to weapons unless its aimed at a rat), and its use to begin with. Yes.
You realize how finicky people are when you change their favorite toy into something even 1% less than it was?
Whilst I totally see, and support, the idea that Ravens shouldnt be the be-all-end-all in PvE, we're basically talking about roughly half of CCP's potential income here. Thats a big issue in itself.
so your basically saying that they are more important than everyone else, that they are untouchable, and their demands must be met. Actually this does sound quite right, looking at the proposed changes. The big issue i see, is that missile boats were primarily used for missions and ratting due to their nature. Now with these changes, its a huge boost to missile users, while it gives the shaft to close range ships.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:17:00 -
[11]
If you nerf the missiles, will you take away the wrecking chance you get from turrets then?
Counter to missile is speed, wich still works.
You can also use ecm, and damps. And FOF`s will only target the nearest hostile...
So, yeah missiles are so overpowered.
Turrets: Insta damage, wrecking shots, anything in low transversal velocity gets hit.
Missile: Delayed damage, no wrecking shots, instead they have a steady amount of damage, speed above 4km/sec = no damage, no need to check transversal velocity.
Try to realise that missiles and turrets are not the same. There are pro and cons with both weapon systems.
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Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:22:00 -
[12]
Heh what a surprise Burn Eden doesn't like the idea of a raven nerf.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:28:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Pohbis on 30/07/2008 18:33:20
Domi + AB + Web + Blasters + Drones
There's your King of PvE. Nerf drones in PvE 
( seriously, do a search for domi, missions and AFK  )
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Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:30:00 -
[14]
I'm going to stick my out and say : Raven? Why bother. Go the Domi I think it's acutally quicker to run missions than the Raven.
I fly Gallente because I couldn't ever bear to train Caldari. Before I even joined up I saw the huge agglomeration of colour (pilots in space) in Caldari space and I'm inherently averse to doing what the majority do.
It's why I picked Minmatar to start with, it's why I went Gallente after I'd had a play around with the game.
I play the game of the challenge, within reasonable limits... too much challenge isn't fun, but neither is zero.
And arguing that you can't change missiles because the customers would vote with their wallets is total *******s. If CCP actually think like that the game is dead, because the favoured masses will vote themselves endless bread and circuses, and then Rome will be invaded by barbarians and burn.
Hell, they're putting their money where their mouth is with the speed nerf and the other 50% of the playing community, the PvPers.
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Aypse
Aypse's Holiday
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:21:00 -
[15]
The OP has a good point, go into any mission running hub and do a scan. CNRs and Ravens will compose >75% of the battleships doing lvl4s. Why is this? Clearly the Raven/CNR has become the de facto PVE ship.
When we consider that CCP has committed themselves to nerfing any ship that becomes THE ship of choice, it seems clear that CCP needs to act on this.
The Raven combines a superior tank that can permatank all but the extremes of lvl4 missions. Faction tanks and low risk PVE has become the norms. Its time to tone down the Raven's tank and increase the combat abilities of the Rats. Not only that, but the Raven's ability to choose a damage type & never suffer from tracking issues on the rats that pose a threat (BC & BS) gives it a huge advantage over the other race's battleship options. Its time to tone down the Raven's damage ouput to compensate for the other race's difficulties in tracking.
These changes will all the other race's BS to compete on an even and fair playing field. Anything less and we continue the currently disturbing trend of the Raven being the de facto PVE ship.
Reducing the mechanics that reward blobbing:
Eve-O Forum Link |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:37:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/07/2008 23:37:16
Yes, they're awesome PvE machines. Not that anyone cares about PvE, but oh well.
Originally by: Vision Threads
Everyone is now realizing how unbalanced cruise missiles are for PVP.
Not really, no.
Look, you know what happens to a cruise raven when it finds itself in a fight vs any other BS? It gets melted while the other guy laughs at the lolDPS it has. As a trade-off, it does better vs smaller ship classes - we can discuss wether it needs a nerf to this or that (maybe sig raidus of cruises?), but claiming cruises are overpowered for PvP is just funny.
And if you think you'll be one-volleying frigs with cruises, I lol at you.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Deja Thoris
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:13:00 -
[17]
Oops, it seems theres been an outbreak of foot in mouth disease at CCP.
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Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:51:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15
Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not *really* trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do.
I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes.
You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines.
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Jack Gilligan
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:12:00 -
[19]
After you nerf missiles, which already are the worst weapon to use in pvp into the worst in pve, why not go after Caldari ECM boats next?
Since you clearly want to see a whole race (and the most popular one, mind you) not have any role whatsoever, why don't we start nerfing Amarr armor tanks, lasers, Gallente drone damage, and Minmatar speed (oops already in the works) so we end up with 4 races worth of ships that basically do nothing worthwhile.
BTW, I do my PVE in Amarr ships. Why? No need to expend ammo. Their tanks are just as good if not BETTER than Caldari shield tanks.
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My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance. |
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.31 03:07:00 -
[20]
best ew, best logistics, best pve and a few decent pvp ships.... yeah I think caldari will survive if missiles are balanced a bit. just if you do change something make it a balance not a complete killing of the weapon system like nanos.
missiles always hit/constant damage - turrets get wrecking/misses
missiles can hit point blank - turrets can hit if low transversal
missiles can choose damage type - turrets can choose range by ammo
missiles have longest natural range - turrets can increase range with mods
missiles have no effective counter - turrets have falloff
missiles are easier to get into - turrets can increase tracking with mods
missiles take time to hit target - they use not cap (minmatar pay for that too)
t2 missile ammo - t2 turret ammo
missiles have good damage at all ranges - turrets have good damage at close range
missiles have better specialization skills (mainly the range ones and decreased sig radius one)
Anyone got any things to add for either side?
theres already a slight imbalance towards missiles there, not anything to completely freak out over, but then a few more special missiles come in:
assault launchers; a long range anti frig weapon for cruisers... i don't see any equivalent among the turrets.
cruise missiles have 300m sig radius, it's only bs sized weapon with this.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:08:00 -
[21]
after the speed nerf ravens/amarr bs will also become the kings of pvp :) who cares about movement, speed and mwd deavtivating scramblers, just stay there and melt ships!
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Euriti
Gallente
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:11:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Euriti on 31/07/2008 07:11:34
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
Originally by: Vision Threads
This is one more reason that missiles need to be looked at. Just like missile ships shouldn't be the I-Win ships for PVP, they also shouldn't be the king of PVE. Let the balancing commence.
Hold the soap!
Practically half of EVE plays PvE. Thats 15k of the normally 30k on at any one time. Thats 100+k users from the 200+k total subscriptions currently active.
(numbers may be off, going off with what I remember)
You even change a little bit of how such PvE runs for half of EVE, you'd have people responding with whines, and their wallets.
CCP isnt stupid. Changing missiles to be inneffective in PvE (of which they've been strong at for so long, they're a standard) as well as PvP (as a response to speed nerfs) would basically kill half of EVE, and put CCP without half its income. Bit extreme, but you see the point here.
Dont touch PvE, do touch PvP.
Well everybody does it so according to CCPs logic the nerfbat must be brought in to action!
Also for a good measure I'll throw in "adapt or die lolol".
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Imperial Servants
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:26:00 -
[23]
Missile boats might be the king og PvE solo, but if you get a friend to help tank, a Geddon far out performs a raven (getting on par with angels/minmatar). That is my experience anyways.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:36:00 -
[24]
Ever heard about the Dominix ? It's the tier 1 Gallente battleship. It's awesome in PvP and PvE and costs less than the Raven.
Try it out ... you'll be surprised.
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:37:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Forge Lag on 31/07/2008 07:41:19
Yeah you can get to Raven levels in PvE with turret boat. You just need three of them to cover all angles and they must be tier3 or faction.
Besides, permaboosting Ravens are just result of lazyness, with the superior mobility granted by missiles (from 90km sniping to tight orbits to gate runs), your buffer and baseline shield regen will see you through most missions.
Once we see cruise ravens in tight orbits pwning blasters we will know it went too far.
Edit: Dominix cannot buffer tank anything and mobility with sentries is either non-existent or will cost you and to get the amazing DPS people speak about it has all the issues of gun ship except it gets mobility issues on top and the tank is severely compromised.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
after the speed nerf ravens/amarr bs will also become the kings of pvp :) who cares about movement, speed and mwd deavtivating scramblers, just stay there and melt ships!
LOL
Explosion velocity, explosion radius, signature radius, flight time, velocity.
Learn those missile mechanics, they are why missiles are not king of PvP now, and they'll be the reasons missiles won't be king of PvP after the change.
The nano-ships go from taking no damage to taking some damage from missiles, true, but the web-nerf will ensure that every single webbed ship will take less damage from missiles, and once scrams shut off MWDs and some people will start fitting ABs, that's even less sig radius for missiles to do damage.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
torp raven melting cruisers is fine
/sarcasm
And would you care to explain in which scenario a torp Raven would melt a cruiser, and any other short range BS wouldn't?
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:08:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 31/07/2008 08:09:09
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 31/07/2008 08:08:59
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
torp raven melting cruisers is fine
/sarcasm
And would you care to explain in which scenario a torp Raven would melt a cruiser, and any other short range BS wouldn't?
orbit at 500m? Guns hit for 0 dmg. Hell even BC will be hit for 0dmg.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:18:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Pohbis on 31/07/2008 08:24:55
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
orbit at 500m? Guns hit for 0 dmg. Hell even BC will be hit for 0dmg.
A normal torp with all lvl 5 skills has an explosion radius of 450.
What speed is your cruiser doing? AB? MWD? Sitting still? And how much dmg is it doing orbiting at 500m?
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
The Border Patrol
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:37:00 -
[30]
in my opinion the performance of guns in PVE should be improved, current damage formula has too many penalties such as signature radius, optimal, tracking fall-off and these do not combine together too well.
there is no need to reduce the effectiveness of missiles
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:37:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Forge Lag on 31/07/2008 08:38:08
And if we replace torps with cruises in that scanario (tight orbit vs cruiser).... even cooler eh? Try with your sniper guns.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:49:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Typhado3
best ew, best logistics, best pve and a few decent pvp ships.... yeah I think caldari will survive if missiles are balanced a bit. just if you do change something make it a balance not a complete killing of the weapon system like nanos.
missiles always hit/constant damage - turrets get wrecking/misses
missiles can hit point blank - turrets can hit if low transversal
missiles can choose damage type - turrets can choose range by ammo
missiles have longest natural range - turrets can increase range with mods
missiles have no effective counter - turrets have falloff
missiles are easier to get into - turrets can increase tracking with mods
missiles take time to hit target - they use not cap (minmatar pay for that too)
t2 missile ammo - t2 turret ammo
missiles have good damage at all ranges - turrets have good damage at close range
missiles have better specialization skills (mainly the range ones and decreased sig radius one)
Anyone got any things to add for either side?
theres already a slight imbalance towards missiles there, not anything to completely freak out over, but then a few more special missiles come in:
assault launchers; a long range anti frig weapon for cruisers... i don't see any equivalent among the turrets.
cruise missiles have 300m sig radius, it's only bs sized weapon with this.
Always hit yes, but damage is never constant. Lower sig decrease the damage, same does speed. Get above certain speed and and yes missiles hit, but do 0.0 damage. No matter if your transversal is zero.
Missiles can choose damage type yes, but turrets get wrecking hots. Also, T2 missiles have different range then T1. Cruise example, T1 249 with max skills, T2 precision just above 100km, T2 high damage, no clue never tried them, but well under 100km.
Missiles have longest range yes, but it takes forever for them to get there, where turrets do instadamage.
MIssiles mo effective counter? Sig radius, speed, and all other counters that work on turrets except tracking disruptor.
MIssiles easy to get into, might be, but you wont do much with thoose missiles until you have your skills up. And even then it`s not a valid point for nerfing, it`s a question about adding SP or changing ranks on skills for missiles.
Quote:
Missile take time to hit target - Use no cap (minmatar pay for that to)??
What you trying to say? That this is a good thing? Last time I checked people hate it that it takes time for missiles to reach target. No cap... projectile guns m8, they dont use cap either.
Quote:
Missiles have good damage at all ranges - Turrets have good damage at close range
Same with missiles. Wanna have good damage at close range fit close range missiles.
And I dont quite understand what you mean, guns can get great damage at ragne to. While my cruise are doing maybe 400-500 HP at 0% reists, turretowners get wrecking shots reaching well above 1400 HP...
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Forge Lag
Edited by: Forge Lag on 31/07/2008 08:38:08
And if we replace torps with cruises in that scanario (tight orbit vs cruiser).... even cooler eh? Try with your sniper guns.
Yeah, and try to hit a target at 200km with your "sniper" cruise missiles and see them move out of range or warp of in the 28 seconds it takes those cruises to get there.
If you want to argue that missiles and guns don't work in the same way, that's another thread.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Forge Lag
Edited by: Forge Lag on 31/07/2008 08:38:08
And if we replace torps with cruises in that scanario (tight orbit vs cruiser).... even cooler eh? Try with your sniper guns.
Right back at ya then, what if we change thoose sniper guns with close range guns?
OMG, the cruiser will be web and killed... imagine that.
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:27:00 -
[35]
No it will orbit you at 400% of current speed or even at 1 000% of current speed. GL hitting that.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:37:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Forge Lag
No it will orbit you at 400% of current speed or even at 1 000% of current speed. GL hitting that.
Erm, exactly what speeds are we talking about here? 400% and 1000% 
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:41:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Forge Lag
No it will orbit you at 400% of current speed or even at 1 000% of current speed. GL hitting that.
Erm, exactly what speeds are we talking about here? 400% and 1000%
Currently, 90% webs exist. Target speed is 10% of the max. After the patch, best webs are 60% => target speed is 40% of max. It goes four times as fast, that is, 400% of current speed. Good luck hitting that indeed. (No idea where the 1000% came from.)
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Gradient forum |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:21:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Currently, 90% webs exist. Target speed is 10% of the max. After the patch, best webs are 60% => target speed is 40% of max. It goes four times as fast, that is, 400% of current speed.
Yes, I know, I was looking for the speed this post-patch cruiser is supposed to do, orbiting at 500m.
I don't know what kind of cruisers you guys are flying but mine don't tend to go that fast when I have to keep a tight 500m orbit.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Currently, 90% webs exist. Target speed is 10% of the max. After the patch, best webs are 60% => target speed is 40% of max. It goes four times as fast, that is, 400% of current speed.
Yes, I know, I was looking for the speed this post-patch cruiser is supposed to do, orbiting at 500m.
I don't know what kind of cruisers you guys are flying but mine don't tend to go that fast when I have to keep a tight 500m orbit.
For max-skilled Megathron with electron blasters (pretty much the best-tracking heavy gun out there, against a cruiser with sig radius of 130, the hit percentage drops to 50 at the whopping speed of 14 m/s. It will do zero damage at 30 m/s. If your cruisers won't go that fast (even webbed), I strongly recommend training your skills up a bit.
--
Gradient forum |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:38:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
For max-skilled Megathron with electron blasters (pretty much the best-tracking heavy gun out there, against a cruiser with sig radius of 130, the hit percentage drops to 50 at the whopping speed of 14 m/s. It will do zero damage at 30 m/s. If your cruisers won't go that fast (even webbed), I strongly recommend training your skills up a bit.
I'm just trying to figure out why the damn Domi hasn't torn it to shreds yet 
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Medore
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:35:00 -
[41]
missiles and turrets are different, and one is better at some things than others!? omg why did no-one tell me
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Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Elaine Celeste
Shhh, nobody's crying about Ravens being too good in pve because, well, npc rats don't really cry all that much.
But yeah, since the raven is pretty much the best npc killer out there it's just about time to nerf it, since, according to CCP, if everybody does it, it must be nerfed.
Eve: Bricks in space
not everybody do use the raven get your facts right before asking for nerf, You nerf *****s/noobs who dont understand how the game works is going to **** this game up.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:58:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vision Threads
Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15
Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not *really* trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do.
I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes.
You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines.
You really don't know this game very well do you. Or anything about game design. Or anything even apparently about PvE.
- CCP didn't change nano systems because a load of people whined. Any idiot could look at what Nozh wrote and see that the reason they did it is due to their own sense of balance, not what anyone else wrote. People have whined for years about things like NPC corps and they've never changed. Read up on MMO design and their lifecycles before you claim to be an expert.
- That you call those that did call for changes 'anti-nano carebears' just broadcasts your hypocrisy, childishness, ignorance, and lack of understanding about the game. I believe WoW or UT might cater better given your inability to appreciate the depth & complexity of EVE.
- Yes the Raven is a capable PvE ship. You're on drugs though if you think it's the only one flown. I see people doing level 4s in Domis, Abaddons, Apocs (the one I use for when I need the cash) even the odd Hyperion, all the time. They all manage just fine. I don't see the empire mission runners caring one whit about reductions for Ravens.
- The fact that missile systems have been so underused for years in PvP that no-one was even bothered that their primary direct counter, defenders, is useless, gives a big hint as to how much we should care if suddenly missiles are viable in PvP. I'd predict a better missile defense before changes to missiles, to be honest. You also seem to have forgotten that generally people don't fit FoF and so ECM remains a perfectly viable counter, just like with other combat.
Get off your high horse & soapbox, you're only making yourself look foolish & immature. Oh and before you flame, I don't use missiles in PvP, though I have fought them, and I've been known to use them once or twice in PvE and found it very dull.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:14:00 -
[44]
Haha I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point. Anything I post here, right or wrong, doesn't even matter. The devs are testing the pvp capability of missiles themselves right now according to that last post by noahz. They'll see the truth, and nerf as they feel appropriate. CCP has a penchant for being heavy-handed with the nerfs. And it's going to bleed into PVE just like the torp changes did.
You see, this isn't a really request for a nerf, or a justification for one. It's a prophecy. No metagaming on this forum is going to change what the devs see when they fire cruise missiles at MWD and AB cruisers, or when they fire heavy missiles at frigates.
I appreciate the bumps, though.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:18:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Vision Threads
This is one more reason that missiles need to be looked at
Originally by: Vision Threads
You see, this isn't a really request for a nerf, or a justification for one. It's a prophecy.
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Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vision Threads
Haha I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point. Anything I post here, right or wrong, doesn't even matter. The devs are testing the pvp capability of missiles themselves right now according to that last post by noahz. They'll see the truth, and nerf as they feel appropriate. CCP has a penchant for being heavy-handed with the nerfs. And it's going to bleed into PVE just like the torp changes did.
You see, this isn't a really request for a nerf, or a justification for one. It's a prophecy. No metagaming on this forum is going to change what the devs see when they fire cruise missiles at MWD and AB cruisers, or when they fire heavy missiles at frigates.
I appreciate the bumps, though.
Nohz even alluded to maytbe having a look at missiles in the context of this change in his original post, before Sisi was opened for testing and the flamewars started.... they knew they might have a problem, I think.
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Exlegion
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:55:00 -
[47]
I want to sympathize with the pro-nano camp, I really do. But with all these silly after-shock threads about they're making it extremely difficult.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Traidor Disloyal
NightCrew
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:23:00 -
[48]
I have never known so many people who like p_i_s_s_i_n_g on their on cereal. I look forward to the day we all play bumper cars in our pods.
---------------------------------------------
Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot |
Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:58:00 -
[49]
I fully support the nerfing of PVE, hopefully it will bring back industrial level to what they were 2 years ago.
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Osher
Caldari
Hadean Drive Yards
Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2008.08.01 03:44:00 -
[50]
Fix Defender Missiles.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.08.01 04:22:00 -
[51]
CCP should nerf cruises so they are in line with railguns and artillery, while increasing sig radius, etc of rats so that they reamin effective in PVE.
Really I'd say that 80% of eve is PVE (miners, missioners and ratters) so of course you can't distrub that customer base, but to make the cruise raven the defacto, all purpose BS is just crazy
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Aypse
Aypse's Holiday
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:17:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Yes the Raven is a capable PvE ship. You're on drugs though if you think it's the only one flown. I see people doing level 4s in Domis, Abaddons, Apocs (the one I use for when I need the cash) even the odd Hyperion, all the time. They all manage just fine. I don't see the empire mission runners caring one whit about reductions for Ravens.
Yes, and its just coincidence that Ravens/CNRs are flown in greater amounts in PVE than all those other ships combined. Its also coincidence that when people ask what race is the best for PVE, that the consensus is Caldari + raven. Right.....right?
Or perhaps its because the Raven is the clear cut best BS for lvl4s AND for 0.0 ratting. Low SP requirements, choose damage type, and a perma-run active shield tank combine to make it THE battleship for PVE. You can use other BSs for level4's, but we all know that in nearly all missions, the raven is the most effecient.
Reducing the mechanics that reward blobbing:
Eve-O Forum Link |
Spurty
Caldari
Trader's Academy
Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:07:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Spurty on 01/08/2008 18:09:13
I use a cerb for all missions, I find it less prone to sudden death by scramming frigates.
I believe missions are designed for missile boats and drones equally.
Don't so much feel missiles need nerfing (as their damage is so low, albeit it consistent), but that guns miss far too often.
Even sat at 0ms my maelstrom will fail to hit a secure container 100km (50kms inside optimal.Yah artillery, <sadface about dps over time>) away every now and and then.
Balancing all weapons based on them having equal ability to hit a target would show how poor missiles are.
As it stands, guns are inferior to missiles as they 'randomly' miss and even more randomly strike 'wrecking' hits.
--
Two prostitutes standing on a street corner. One says to the other, "Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" The other replies, "No, but I've been swung around by the ****!" |
griff1972
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:38:00 -
[54]
this topic makes me laugh, there are many other ships that can rat faster than a raven, the reason why there are more ratting ravens is because there are more caldri. this alone does not justify nerfing it.
CCp "The paying Customer seems to be enjoying that modual," "yeah lets nerf him"
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.02 20:45:00 -
[55]
alot of people fly ships.. nerf ships...
seriously.... I got a weird feeling I am in a troll thread....
oh and missiles... yeah, not that great for everything... every tried hitting a frig/inty with crusies from your precious CNR??
I prefer guns anyday =P
Originally by: CCP Atropos
I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:19:00 -
[56]
Quote:
We're still making adjustments to missiles on our internal servers, we've been tweaking the numbers using the current missile damage formula but also exploring other possibilities.
Mwahahahaha
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:12:00 -
[57]
I'd be Ok with every race having at least 1 missile oriented battleship. I do think that DPS on Raven and powergrid on Drake should be modified a bit. In my view of balance on Eve a torp Raven would do less damage than an AC fitted typhoon/blasterthron, more damage than rail Mega and Amarr laser boats w/ longer range ammo. Basically, the longer distance you can shoot to, the less damage you should do and you should always be able to track the ships you're meant to be able to shoot at in the optimal of your weapon. That's balance rather than currently the DPS for a given ship might be equal to or greater than a shorter range ship of another race which doesn't really make sense to me unless there's some other great bonus to the short range ship.
Until they fix torps I'm sorta wondering why I'd ever fly a blasterthron or short range ship in general. And in reference to the drake it has too many EHP for the amount of damage it can put out when its fitted with 3x BCU + HAMs so the grid should be altered that it'd have to drop MWD to fit the HAMs or drop the LSE. Maybe a higher stacking nerf on BCU's so it does less damage in that scenario. Brutix should be a viable ship but it has less than a third the tank for comparable DPS.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:46:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Yes, and its just coincidence that Ravens/CNRs are flown in greater amounts in PVE than all those other ships combined. Its also coincidence that when people ask what race is the best for PVE, that the consensus is Caldari + raven. Right.....right?
Wrong. Or, at least, not quite right. The Raven isn't clearly the best mission ship - Domi, Abaddon, Apoc are all at least its equals. The reason that it's so popular is that a bog-standard Cruise Raven is relatively easy to train for and fly, so it's an attractive choice for your average newbie mission-runner who doesn't understanding tracking properly. They may realise later that it isn't really the best choice, but by that stage they're so far down the missile-spamming Raven path that switching doesn't seem that attractive.
If you wanted to counter this effect, you could bring the skill prerequisites of Cruise into line with the gunnery skill trees. But, given that the missile skill tree is a lot longer than each gunnery skill tree, while also lacking any transferable skills, you'd have to tweak the missile skill tree elsewhere. And that might remove some diversity from Eve...
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Red zeon
Caldari
Shades Corp
The OSS
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:12:00 -
[59]
missiles got something called explotion velocity
witch is about 500ms on cruise, that is prob what theyr gonna change
if you fly 600ms you get dmg reduction,
either they will nerf the formula how dmg drops after exeeding the explotion velocity, or lower the explotion velocity.
thats my bet,
also 1more point, amarr gallente minmatar has allways been pvp races where caldari has been ratter race,
also amar tracking with lasers will own nano and caldari ships in general i think.
if you want justice, then missile nerf should wait aslong as it did for nano nerf.
you should be very happy missile nerf (suppose) comes same time as nano nerf.
everyone allmost says caldari is at bottom of pvp, why shouldnt they be best at pve? name 1 reason
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Lili Lu
Victory Not Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:24:00 -
[60]
Yes, the nano nerf has exposed how the game is marginally caldari online and would definitely become caldari online if no other changes were made in conjunction with the nano nerf.
Too many players imo start Caldari to make easy PVE money with drakes and then ravens. Why, not just because of the PVE missile advantages already listed in this thread, but because the overpowered passive shield tank on the drake can survive level 4 missions with comparatively little sp investment. And then those relatively newb players decide they want to complete level 4s faster, so they upgrade to the cruise raven that can be fit, albeit expensively, with a similarly overpowered active tank.
Then those PVE players decide to try PVP in their ravens and drakes WITH THE SAME FITTINGS. OMGWTF my Caldari ships can't PVP. I always survive PVE missions, but now this PVP is not fair. My missiles take forever to reach the target, my overpowered shield tank leaves me no mid slots to tackle, and what's this if i get primaried my passive tank drake lasts longer than any other ship but i still die in the end WHAAAAAAAA
Caldari players you have PVP options !!!!! Examples - The Cerb is a missile PVP force to be reckoned with. You have turret boats too! For example, take the Rokh. The Rokh is the longest range sniper! You may even be able to use higher damage ammo at lesser sniper ranges compared to other rail boats! Also, try dropping one rediculously easy to fit LSE on your Drake for a point! Learn what every other race ship has to learn for close range combat, you have to make some sacrifices in tank to fit for close range gank. Damage mods go in low slots, that means less tank for armor, yeah the few mid slots are free for tackle. Similar tradeoff with Caldari ships, you sacrifice tank to fit tackle in the mids, but little sacrifice to fitting the low slot damage mods. And learn that PVP is about getting blown up sometimes! Only PVE is predictable and minimally risky for getting blown up.
Well, yeah this is a bit of a troll reply, because no matter how i say it Caldari centric players will flame. So here's my disclaimer - I have 3 accounts, one flys Minmatar and Amarr, another flys Gallente and a little Caldari, and the last so far flys Caldari only. I've used every class of weapons in the game, light to heavy and sentry drones, small rail projectile and laser to large, and rockets to cruise and torp, every ew in the game (i'll leave the caldari supremacy in ew out of this thread  ) The only class of ships i haven't flown are dictors and caps. Caldari is far from the weakest or hardest to train in every category, in fact it is often the strongest and easiest.
So yeah, I agree with the OP and see this missile rebalancing due to the nano-nerf as much needed balancing. Some of the Caldari centric players need to learn a harsh CCP/eve lesson. It pays to have every character train two races of ships. Sooner or later the nerf bat hits your race. And I have whined just like you when I was initially an Amarr-centric player. Boy did I whine (and I still whine ). But after 2 yrs+ of playing you realize, there is a cycle to the nerf/buff bat in this game. Best to have a fallback race to fly if you detest what CCP has/is going to do to your favorite race of ships, or suck it up and make the best with what's left.
Cladari will be fine even if missiles get nerfed. Still the best ewar, still rediculous tanks, still the longest range gun snipers. And PVE will become more of a challenge, which is a good thing. Just be glad you didn't have to start out your level 3 careers in a Prophecy or Cyclone (no Harbingers or Hurricanes existed) or Level 4s in the old Apoc Things will be ok even if they will no longer be easy mode.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:16:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Vision Threads
Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15
Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not *really* trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do.
I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes.
You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines.
The Raven can need some rebalancing for PvE (not PvP, so I don't know what could be done). The Drake losing DPS would make it a useless brick.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
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Lili Lu
Victory Not Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:30:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Vision Threads
Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15
Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not *really* trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do.
I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes.
You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines.
The Raven can need some rebalancing for PvE (not PvP, so I don't know what could be done). The Drake losing DPS would make it a useless brick.
No it just means you might have to fit BCUs and not be able to devote all your low slots to an easy level 4 survivable passive tank. But then BC's are not really meant to be easy level 4 ships, this would bring Caldari on a level field with other races.
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Bobbechk
The Handsome Boy Modeling School
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:01:00 -
[63]
this
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gludius maxximus
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:05:00 -
[64]
I am a little confused the majority of pve players fly ravens so we are going to nerf missiles which are the primary weapons system for all caldari ships?
Because anything everyone is using is a bad thing so would that mean that the primary ship in each race should be nerfed since it has the largest percentage of use by is race? or that which ever weapons system has the highest percentage of use for each race needs to be nerfed. Sounds like anything someone else is using should be nerfed. Or best of all just give us all one ship and one weapons system and one type of augment and we will all have equal equipment the game will su@#$%^& but hey all is even then except then we are all in the same ship so it will need to be nerfed as everyone flies the same one.
O I see this as a never ending nerf fest sounds like a new game to me.
I do understand if something is to strong or to weak it needs to be adjusted to balance the playing field. As I do not fly a raven I prefer not to fly what everyone else is flying even if it is suppose to be top dog in pve. I fly a Nighthawk so why do I get nerfed for all the raven pilots? if you nerf missiles?
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Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:00:00 -
[65]
I wonder why ppl are allways complaining about Ravens dealing too much dps.
Torp Raven with 3xBCU II and max Skills= 1000 DPS
1000 DPS is nothing the other races would not be able to reach if they fit enough damage mods. But most people prefer a Tank with a shitload of HP and high resistances.
Now you are saying again that a raven can still put on a decent tank while dealing a lot of damage. Yes a raven can tank quite some damage if you use all your midslots for your tank, just it wont run an XL-Shield Booster for very long then.
So you encounter my high dps + strong tank raven which might possibly kick your ass. Oh wait, i do not have a scrambler fitted. You simply warp away.
Other Scenario: I have a scrambler fitted but no web. You will outrun me and still get away before you explode.
Next Scenario: I have a scrambler, a cap injector, a web and an mwd fitted. Now i can keep you where you are but sadly I dont have any buffer tank no resistances and my shield booster wont change a lot now. So your 500dps 200k EHP battleship which is tackling / webbing maybe also neuting me is melting my overpowered Raven.
So much for the Torp Raven.
Cruise Missile Raven:
DPS is Pathetic.. again with 3xBCU II it deals 440 dps from missiles (Hell yeah thats a lot for a ship with 3 damage mods). Even the Tempest ppl keep complaining about deals more damage on long range while it does not need to wait for 20 - 30 seconds until their shots finaly hit.
As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:13:00 -
[66]
ow fail jim is back
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg
intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC
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Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:18:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Jim Hazard on 13/08/2008 19:33:55
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
ow fail jim is back
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg
intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC
and where in my post did I say anything about drakes? I was just talking about the Raven, many people keep complaining about. Nothing else.
edit: after taking a look at your little picture there i can not see what you are complaining about. With that setup the drake will not have a chance. Since the 2 heavy neuts will switch off the drakes invuls pretty fast which means the total EHP drop down to 64k and the defense drops down to 104 (which is not a constant value, but the value at the peak recharge rate only) while the tempest will have no problems to keep the cap up and will tank away 274 dps constantly -> Tempest wins. Also the Tempest will get some more dps when you use 2 Heavy drones 2 med drones + 1 small drone instead of 5 meds ;).
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oilio
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.13 23:33:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
ow fail jim is back
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg
intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC
You TOOL!
Firstly, the drake is full of damage mods, and the tempest isn't.
Secondly, look at the top right - THAT FIT DOESN'T WORK! Not enough powergrid.
Thirdly... everything is overheated on both ships. This is a completely bullshit fit. The drake fit is impossible, and there is no webber on the drake, but there is a webber on the tempest.
Whatever point you are trying to make, you fail.
Regarding missiles... if CCP think they need nerfing, they will get nerfed and people with have to adapt...
but don't suggest that a drake is superior to a tempest - you look like a total fool when you do that. NO-ONE would swap their tempest for a drake. |
FlameGlow
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.14 01:08:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jim Hazard
As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill.
_____________
I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.08.14 02:24:00 -
[70]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jim Hazard
As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill.
Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here.
Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5
Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3
Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1
Torpedos = Rank 4
Cruise Missiles = Rank 5
Heavy Missiles = Rank 3
Standard Missiles = Rank 1
Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons.
T2 Pulse Lasor:
Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP
Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP
Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k
Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k
Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K
Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k
= 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses
T2 Torps:
Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k
Torpedos 5 = 1.024k
Standard Missiles 3 = 24k
Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k
= 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
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Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.14 04:12:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jim Hazard
3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses
1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
That comparison is completely invalid. To be able to use all T2 Beams and all T2 Pulse lasers, with large specializations at IV, it would cost just under 5 mil SPs. For the equivalent in missiles, with all specializations at IV, it costs more than 6.25 mil SPs.
It would do you well to not look at only one side of the equation.
____________________
Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK.
Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.14 04:26:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Lili Lu
Yes, the nano nerf has exposed how the game is marginally caldari online and would definitely become caldari online if no other changes were made in conjunction with the nano nerf.
Too many players imo start Caldari to make easy PVE money with drakes and then ravens. Why, not just because of the PVE missile advantages already listed in this thread, but because the overpowered passive shield tank on the drake can survive level 4 missions with comparatively little sp investment. And then those relatively newb players decide they want to complete level 4s faster, so they upgrade to the cruise raven that can be fit, albeit expensively, with a similarly overpowered active tank.
Then those PVE players decide to try PVP in their ravens and drakes WITH THE SAME FITTINGS. OMGWTF my Caldari ships can't PVP. I always survive PVE missions, but now this PVP is not fair. My missiles take forever to reach the target, my overpowered shield tank leaves me no mid slots to tackle, and what's this if i get primaried my passive tank drake lasts longer than any other ship but i still die in the end WHAAAAAAAA
Caldari players you have PVP options !!!!! Examples - The Cerb is a missile PVP force to be reckoned with. You have turret boats too! For example, take the Rokh. The Rokh is the longest range sniper! You may even be able to use higher damage ammo at lesser sniper ranges compared to other rail boats! Also, try dropping one rediculously easy to fit LSE on your Drake for a point! Learn what every other race ship has to learn for close range combat, you have to make some sacrifices in tank to fit for close range gank. Damage mods go in low slots, that means less tank for armor, yeah the few mid slots are free for tackle. Similar tradeoff with Caldari ships, you sacrifice tank to fit tackle in the mids, but little sacrifice to fitting the low slot damage mods. And learn that PVP is about getting blown up sometimes! Only PVE is predictable and minimally risky for getting blown up.
Well, yeah this is a bit of a troll reply, because no matter how i say it Caldari centric players will flame. So here's my disclaimer - I have 3 accounts, one flys Minmatar and Amarr, another flys Gallente and a little Caldari, and the last so far flys Caldari only. I've used every class of weapons in the game, light to heavy and sentry drones, small rail projectile and laser to large, and rockets to cruise and torp, every ew in the game (i'll leave the caldari supremacy in ew out of this thread ) The only class of ships i haven't flown are dictors and caps. Caldari is far from the weakest or hardest to train in every category, in fact it is often the strongest and easiest.
So yeah, I agree with the OP and see this missile rebalancing due to the nano-nerf as much needed balancing. Some of the Caldari centric players need to learn a harsh CCP/eve lesson. It pays to have every character train two races of ships. Sooner or later the nerf bat hits your race. And I have whined just like you when I was initially an Amarr-centric player. Boy did I whine (and I still whine ). But after 2 yrs+ of playing you realize, there is a cycle to the nerf/buff bat in this game. Best to have a fallback race to fly if you detest what CCP has/is going to do to your favorite race of ships, or suck it up and make the best with what's left.
Cladari will be fine even if missiles get nerfed. Still the best ewar, still rediculous tanks, still the longest range gun snipers. And PVE will become more of a challenge, which is a good thing. Just be glad you didn't have to start out your level 3 careers in a Prophecy or Cyclone (no Harbingers or Hurricanes existed) or Level 4s in the old Apoc Things will be ok even if they will no longer be easy mode.
/signed
caldari/minmatar fleet pilot.... caldari are awesome in fleet work, and in pve, not so good in solo but soon to be decent there from nano nerf if it goes through.
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Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.08.14 04:41:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Jim Hazard on 14/08/2008 04:44:15
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Jim Hazard
3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses
1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
That comparison is completely invalid. To be able to use all T2 Beams and all T2 Pulse lasers, with large specializations at IV, it would cost just under 5 mil SPs. For the equivalent in missiles, with all specializations at IV, it costs more than 6.25 mil SPs.
It would do you well to not look at only one side of the equation.
Well, yes if you really need to be able to use all kinds of missiles you will need quite some SPs in the end. I would not mind if the Total amount of SPs needed to use all the Weapons would be lowered for missiles.
But look at it from this perspective:
Not every1 wants to specialise to fly ships of every size. Lets say we got 2 Pilots here who only want to Specialise for Battleship sized Ships. Pilot A is a missile user. Pilot B wants to fly ships which use Turrets. Pilot A is rdy to use t2 BS weapons within 1 month. Pilot B needs 3 month to get there. -> unbalanced.
edit: I do not really care a lot about that myself... i got all the gunnery skills for my ships maxed out. My point just is that it appears to be kind of unfair to be forced to train skills you are not planning to use in the near future while others can go straight for the Weapons they want.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.14 04:55:00 -
[74]
Well, that is granted. CCP even themselves stated that they wished it had been done differently. But back when missiles were being created, they were specialty weapons. There were literally no relationships between torps and rockets, for example. Hell, there was no relationship between torps and anything, for that matter. The skill set for them was created LONG before the natural evolution of guided and unguided missiles came to be.
With the standardization of missile usage, the introduction of HAMs, and finally the nerf/buff to torps, it would have made sense to make the prerequisites identical to turret systems. However, these changes were made long after the game went live, and it's far too late to change any of that now.
____________________
Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK.
Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.08.14 07:36:00 -
[75]
Here are the sums of the ranks of the skills in the missile and gunnery skill trees, split into weapons and support skills:
Missile weapon skills: 50
Turret weapon skills: 41
Missile support skills: 26 (24 if you exclude Defenders)
Gunnery support skills: 18
Training missiles takes significantly longer than training a turret skill tree. And there's no transferable skills with missiles, like Rapid Firing, that applies to all three turret trees.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:33:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Jim Hazard
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jim Hazard
As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill.
Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here.
Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5
Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3
Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1
Torpedos = Rank 4
Cruise Missiles = Rank 5
Heavy Missiles = Rank 3
Standard Missiles = Rank 1
Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons.
T2 Pulse Lasor:
Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP
Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP
Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k
Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k
Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K
Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k
= 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses
T2 Torps:
Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k
Torpedos 5 = 1.024k
Standard Missiles 3 = 24k
Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k
= 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
murder one
Gallente
Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:40:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Jim Hazard
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jim Hazard
As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill.
Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here.
Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5
Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3
Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1
Torpedos = Rank 4
Cruise Missiles = Rank 5
Heavy Missiles = Rank 3
Standard Missiles = Rank 1
Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons.
T2 Pulse Lasor:
Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP
Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP
Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k
Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k
Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K
Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k
= 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses
T2 Torps:
Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k
Torpedos 5 = 1.024k
Standard Missiles 3 = 24k
Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k
= 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ...
Raven wins. Duh...
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:46:00 -
[78]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Jim Hazard
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jim Hazard
As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill.
Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here.
Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5
Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3
Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1
Torpedos = Rank 4
Cruise Missiles = Rank 5
Heavy Missiles = Rank 3
Standard Missiles = Rank 1
Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons.
T2 Pulse Lasor:
Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP
Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP
Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k
Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k
Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K
Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k
= 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses
T2 Torps:
Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k
Torpedos 5 = 1.024k
Standard Missiles 3 = 24k
Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k
= 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ...
Raven wins. Duh...
fittings please ... and numbers ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:47:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 14/08/2008 08:47:33
Originally by: oilio
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
ow fail jim is back
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg
intresting ? AND TEMPEST IS BS AND DRAKE BC
You TOOL!
Firstly, the drake is full of damage mods, and the tempest isn't.
Secondly, look at the top right - THAT FIT DOESN'T WORK! Not enough powergrid.
Thirdly... everything is overheated on both ships. This is a completely bullshit fit. The drake fit is impossible, and there is no webber on the drake, but there is a webber on the tempest.
Whatever point you are trying to make, you fail.
Regarding missiles... if CCP think they need nerfing, they will get nerfed and people with have to adapt...
but don't suggest that a drake is superior to a tempest - you look like a total fool when you do that. NO-ONE would swap their tempest for a drake.
o realy?
drake have mroe ehp,dps,tank. i dont neeed weber (talking baout speed nerf). And you suck at pvp already, becosue you dont know magic things like implnats to powergrid. Get lost. It will fit with awu 4 and 5% pg implant. You fail. |
Dr Clay
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Posted - 2008.08.14 10:09:00 -
[80]
The answer is to make rockets the PvP missile.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.14 10:38:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Vision Threads
Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15
Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not *really* trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do.
I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes.
You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines.
The Raven can need some rebalancing for PvE (not PvP, so I don't know what could be done). The Drake losing DPS would make it a useless brick.
No it just means you might have to fit BCUs and not be able to devote all your low slots to an easy level 4 survivable passive tank. But then BC's are not really meant to be easy level 4 ships, this would bring Caldari on a level field with other races.
I use 3 BCU, don't assume so much.
And generally don't use a drake for Level 4.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
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Jim Hazard
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Posted - 2008.08.14 11:49:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Jim Hazard
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Jim Hazard
As for the skills being needed I agree that there should be a change. It does not appear to be fair that you need to train the skills for all turrets to get to battleship sized T2 guns while you just need a minimum of skillpoints for smaller missiles in order to get to T2 Torps / T2 cruise missiles.
IIRC All missile and support skills are about 1.5 times more SP then 1 type of turrets+ all support skills. And missile skills are generally 1 rank higher then respective turret skill.
Since I love amarr I will use their skills to proof that you are wrong here.
Large Energy Turrets = Rank 5
Medium Energy Turrets = Rank 3
Small Energy Turrets = Rank 1
Torpedos = Rank 4
Cruise Missiles = Rank 5
Heavy Missiles = Rank 3
Standard Missiles = Rank 1
Now Lets have a look at the skill reqs just to use the T2 Large Weapons.
T2 Pulse Lasor:
Motion Prediction Level 5 = 512k SP
Gunnery Level 5 = 256k SP
Medium Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 226k
Small Pulse Laser Spec 4 = 135k
Large Energy Turret 5 = 1.280K
Medium Energy Turret 5 = 768k
= 3.2 Million SP just to train Large Pulse spec Lv1 + use T2 Large Pulses
T2 Torps:
Missile Launcher Operation 4 = 45k
Torpedos 5 = 1.024k
Standard Missiles 3 = 24k
Heavy Missiles 3 = 8k
= 1.1 Million SP to Train Torp Spec Lv1 and use T2 Torps
now fit 2 ships with the skills you stated (one for missile, like Raven and one for lasers, Geddon) and tell us the resulting DPS and target effectivnes. thanks ...
Raven wins. Duh...
fittings please ... and numbers ...
Since i am to lazy now to calculate it exactly I am just gonna give you a description...
At that point the Raven would win. Why? quite simple. Without the support skills trained the geddon will not deal enough damage to break through the Ravens tank, whereas the geddon relies on a passive tank which slowly will crumble while the raven keeps shooting it.
Active tank instead on the geddon? No way... a single repper is not able to compensate that kind of damage and a dualrep tank does not run very long on a ship which is using laser turrets (not even with a cap injector).
At an early stage Torps are a lot more useful than any other Battleship sized Weapon. Which results in a Low SP missile user being in an advantage over a Turret user with 3x as much SP for his weapons. At a later point the Geddon will win because the Raven will not be able to outtank the geddon anymore. The geddon will loose a lot of hitpoints, but a high damage buffer tanked BS will allways win vs an active tanked BS.
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Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.10.27 03:00:00 -
[83]
"Heh" |
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