Hm, I stand corrected, in a straight up "snipe each other" thing, a Muninn would destroy a Tornado -- if it kept moving. The issue remains that against stationary or low-transversal targets (optimal situation if you're aiming for alpha), the Tornado is far superior. Coupled with the fact that Muninn has drones, I could let it go. However, it still bothers me the Tornado is faster than the Muninn, and the Naga is faster than the Eagle. It just doesn't make sense given the sizes of the ships.

Oddly enough, the Oracle is not faster than the Zealot, and I am fine with the balance between the two. I am also fine with the Talos being the mini-Megathron it is.

Tier 3s are indeed better balanced than the other battlecruiers are, but they can still use a bit of work.

Just a personal opinion here, but I think BCs are used as a hammer: one quick tool for everything. Low skills, big bang. Like any ship, BCs have their place.

I truly believe that the Hammer or the center should move to Cruisers.

I have a bit of a different perspective on range. I am okay giving Sniper HAC to Tier 3's. Make it so that faster, Tankier HAC's are better in the 40-70 KM Range. With 2 Damage Bonuses they put out the DPS but are smaller, more agile and harder to kill. Leave the long range stuff to Tier 3's and Battleships instead of making then try to compete.

Make them Ships designed to take out Gangs of Tier 1/2 Battlecruisers, close range Cruisers and Destroyers. General stuff and leave long range f 70+ to L Sized weapons at the issue that HAC's can close range and if they get a warp in you are not regaining range on the field.

Make Cruisers, HAC's and Battlecruisers from short to medium range ships and and L Guns Ships Medium to Long Range but make sure none of them can out run Cruisers and HAC's flat out.

That said, I occasionally find myself wishing that bonused medium weapons went as far as unbonused large weapons. For instance, the pulse Zealot should have similar range to the pulse Oracle (and Geddon) assuming similar numbers of TEs/TCs. That'd be swell, but probably OP as hell.

Here is some food for thought. Look at the relationship between the Enyo and it's Tech one hull, the incursus. The Incursus, before any mods, has:

391 Shield
460 Armor
460 Structure

The Enyo has:

465 Shield
1099 Armor
1495 Structure

Now the Thorax and the Deimos. The Thorax:

1905 Shield
2051 Armor
2344 Structure

The Deimos:

1450 Shield
2550 Armor
3164 Structure

It's not even close to the same percentage. Should it be? The Deimos based off the Thorax would then look like:

2266 Shield
4900 Armor
7618 Structure

Now clearly that would be overpowered- especially the structure. But the key part is that the easiest way to balance HACs would be to move their EHP closer to BC territory. Again, food for thought.

There's literally no reason for that to change except that you prefer it.

Tier 3s and Sniper HACs don't really do the same things. I know it looks like it from EFT, but its just not true in game.

-Liang

No reason to do anything except that someone prefers it.

Reasons I prefer it.

* More Role variety in Cruisers currently gimped by stats.
* Reintroduces under used ships without taking away usefulness of other ships.
* Lowers costs of Effective PvP entry with effect diminished return increases by cost.
* Boosts effective EWAR / Support on the base level without lessoning the increase f more advanced T2 versions.
* Brings the 8 Battlecruisers in line with each other without stepping on Cruisers toes or limiting their heavier role.

I would prefer a change for those reasons. I think a lot of other people would to so I will say so.

Tier 3s and Sniper HACs don't really do the same things. I know it looks like it from EFT, but its just not true in game.

-Liang

1) Yes and I have given my opinion on how to remove the Tier System.
2) Yes and I have given my opinion on how to remove the Tier System.
3) Base stats over utility. They should have fewer slots and be cheaper but their effectiveness should be increased.
4) And their is only one EWAR Cruiser, the rest are toothless.
5) It will also be helped by the Drake rebalance and a slight adjustment to the Cane.

You can claim that the Tier System with no rebalance of mechanic will fix everything but I would like them to go a bit further to close the gaps between classes.
[quote=Liang Nuren]
It's almost entirely unnecessary and I don't think you quite grasp how tenuous the balance really is (in game, not in EFT).

-Liang

Yet the 50km pulse Zealots you want are?

I think he wants 50km Pulse Zealots like I want 300 DPS frigate lasers, but we both know those are horrible and broken ideas.

You can claim that the Tier System with no rebalance of mechanic will fix everything but I would like them to go a bit further to close the gaps between classes.

There's really no need to do this, and TBH your ideas strike me as being based primarily on EFT rather than in game performance. IMO after a few weeks you'd either be calling for your ideas to be reverted or you'd be piling on change after change after change to fix the mess they'd made in the first place.

-Liang

You are wrong about that one. 80% of what I fly is T1 Cruisers. Low DPS tank ratio is a problem on even the higher Tier Cruisers. MWD's burn out the cap to fast and Canes with 2 Neuts are not just a threat to your Capacitor but **** it.

30-40K EHP and 6 Guns is not a lot to ask for, neither is better fitting or more cap.I don't want Cruisers to have more tank then a BC or even more DPS. I want them to be 2-3 Slots down as well. In return I want them faster, all of them.

As you said it is about the center and I think that the preferred T1 ships skirmish roaming gangs should be the 16 Cruisers and not the Minmatar Battlecruiser. I don't want to take away what is good about the Battlecruiser Class which is being a Heavy Cruiser but I want it to be an improvement in non mobility related area's and not better in utility.

Yes I think T1 Cruisers Tank and DPS are to low and very slight DPS / Tank buffs won't ruin BC's because they will still be superior in those roles.

Heavier cruiser, balanced by increased cost/reduced speed
Cruiser with extra dps, balanced by increased cost

Are there any type of reports that show how much the BC's are being flown? I know from personal experience I see more canes and drakes then just about anything else

I do fly Tier 1 and 2 Battlecruisers. I have seen the difference very clearly and think that the Drake balance is correct and a slight adjustment to the Cane is good thing. Along side Tier 1 Battlecruiser buffs and a Cruiser / Frigate General buff the game would be better.

Tier 3's and HAC's you are right I don't fly them and am just basing my opinion off of posts by CCP Yitterbalm, the CSM Minutes, Video's of their use and data collected. So their is a bigger chance of error on my part there. That said looking at the stats I can only find a valid reason to fly a couple of them. You yourself say the Vega is not that great anymore and the Artillery Cane trumps the Muniin. Most HAC's see little use, the Sac, Eagle, Cerb and such.

My suggestion for them was an extra weapon and maybe an extra slot. My suggestion for Tier 3's is to keep them fast but not outright outrun Cruisers which has been stated to be their counter.

I don't think my suggestions are as radical as you make them out to be. In fact I don't think I have obsoleted one ship.

Claiming the Cane needs a nerf and the Drake is fine... :psyduck:

-Liang

When I said the Drake balance is correct I meant the balance changes.

The proposed Drake nerf obsoletes the Cerb - something you said you were keen to avoid.

-Liang

The Cerberus in it's current form yes. Various adjustment I suggested such as faster speed, more agility, more cap for running an MWD, 6 Launchers, removal off all rig penalties changes the field. For one thing my Cerb would more Damage with missiles then the Drake, be better at maintaining it with an MWD, be much more agile, and be fast enough to keep larger competitors from closing range.

Are there any type of reports that show how much the BC's are being flown? I know from personal experience I see more canes and drakes then just about anything else

The proposed Drake nerf obsoletes the Cerb - something you said you were keen to avoid.

-Liang

This dream would require cruisers to have the following kinds of buffs;
- 5% cap use bonus per level for MWD's (or, indeed, a bigger capacitor) OR 5% less penalty per level to MWD capacitor modifier (allowing MWDing like a pro)
- adjusting down cruiser sig radius a touch, especially for clearly shield tanked ones like bellicose, to reduce the impact of MWD sig bloom
- 5% better tracking for medium guns, 5% bonus to explosion velocity of missiles, or 5% drone nav speed bonus
- 10% more base hitpoints across the board (remember, 1600's do more than trimarks; you fit ACR rigs to fit the plate first)
- buffing drone bays to 10m3