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[Proposal] A new way of dealing with the speed issue.

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Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:42:00 - [1] Well most every one hates the speed nerf in its current incarnation. I have an idea that would address the issue with out dramatically changing the dynamics of the current game play. Also with out destroying the effort people have made to train skills, Buy mods, Implants. I started a thread in the Game development forum with this idea. And it was pointed out that I might want to post it here. So in an effort to gain some exposure here I go. ----------------- Copyed from thread----------------- I have a simple and elegant solution that would address the proposed speed problem. One in which I believe the player base with accept with out too much fuss and it still will address the speed issue definitively. IÆm not sure how knowledgeable you are with aeronautical terminology so I will keep things simple. I propose there be a new facet introduced to all ships. (Not just hull based) And that new facet should be called Vne (Velocity Never Exceed). This is an actual aircraft rating in the real world. In layman terms itÆs a speed at which you start causing abnormal stress/damage to an aircraftÆs hull. IE if you exceed the Vne too much for too long the wings will rip off or cause other catastrophic damage. By instituting this new dynamic you will be able to effectively kill the ôludicrousö speed as noted in the blog. With out the huge sweeping changes that are on SISI now. As an idea how this would work: say a ship has a Vne rating of 5k/ms. Now if that same ship exceeds that rating it would start incurring hull damage. Now the amount of damage incurred VRS the amount of speed over the rated Vne is of course variable. And just as in real ships/aircraft some hulls are built more heavily then others. Since this new dynamic is based in real life most every one will understand it and accept it. And bluntly it just makes sense that this is how things should work. Just as in real life: sure you can strap a MX missile to your back, nothing is stopping you. But youÆre not going to live long if you fire that bad boy off. But an important effect of instituting a change like this is you can leave all the modules and implants at their current nominal values. So people with snakes in their heads or people that have a lot of time in trained skills donÆt wined up having their efforts completely destroyed. Of course no one is ever happy at the prospect of having their efforts completely destroyed by the institution of a new policy. I think most every one would agree that this would not kill small gang warfare, but rather it would add a new dynamic to the necessary piloting skills to be successful. Since speed tanked ships donÆt fit reps having even a small amount of hull/armor damage is a huge factor in the decision making process of any one piloting a nano/speed tanked ship. Conversely people might actually fit remote hull repairers to their ships for after combat repairs. And since these modules are very power thirsty, I would not think they would/could be use them wile still in combat. And I would bet most people would acknowledge that remote hull reps are almost completely absent from roaming speed gangs. MOST importantly in the end analyses making a change like this adds new decision VRS penalty choice that every pilot would have to make. Yes people would be able to go at ôludicrousö speeds, but NOT FOR LONG and not with out a PENALTY. And as an added benefit since you are not making a huge change to the game dynamic. So I would expect the resulting ôUNEXPECTED result of X nerfö would be greatly diminished. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link=====My idea in the other forum There has been alot of good ideas thrown out in the thread. Please check it out and post your thoughts.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:57:00 - [2] This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. Or it could be based off of a COMBINATAION of factors. Hell a Vne could be blamed on the Fuzzy DICE falling off the rear view mirror. Any of them work. But itÆs the principal of a Vne that follows logic.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. Or it could be based off of a COMBINATAION of factors. Hell a Vne could be blamed on the Fuzzy DICE falling off the rear view mirror. Any of them work. But itÆs the principal of a Vne that follows logic. don't feel bad a LOT of people don't understand how space works. support, but I still add that it just build up your heat meter in the middle of the UI. Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that.
Sylthi Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:26:00 - [6] I support this idea whole-heartedly. This is brilliant in its simplicity and elegance. AND, most importantly, it is a direct slap to the "balance" team's way of doing things. CCP's answer to perceived "problems" is ALWAYS the same: namely, bring out the nerf-bat and bludgeon EVERYTHING in sight to death. It is so nice to see someone bringing up a POSSITIVE way to deal with this issue rather than all of this negativity we constantly get from the devs. Lesson CCP: Be POSSITIVE in your solutions. Add NEW stuff to deal with "issues" that you perceive rather than simply breaking out the nerf-bat to bludgeon the player base into submission. Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along. But, nice to see someone is actually TRYING. Thank you OP. * *
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. E=mc2 As the speed of the object increases the mass of the object increases. So as the speed increases the internal stresses being placed upon the ship by the creation of its own gravity well and outside sources of gravity increase along side it. The ship would crush itself somewhere between a full stop and the speed of gravity not including anything else like...I don't know... being shot maybe? Agility is already addressed but as far as Vne not being realistic its simply a reflection of your education that you don't know the theory of (special)relativity and how it applies in space. Oh and don't give me that "its just a theory" crap because its a theory until it's proven right or wrong and right now its neither but it does work in Newtonian physics which do apply to all things larger than the atomic level quite well. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that.[/quote So following you logic a ship orbiting another ship at say 8k/ms is not suffering from G-force loading, vibration, Hull stress, and such?? Hmmmm...........Well if thats you position so be it. Every one is entitled to their oppinion.
Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that. Actually, if you want to get REALLY technical, acceleration is ONE of the ways you get all of the above factors in 0-G. But, when applied to Eve combat situations, the PRIMARY way you would get load stress is from rapid vector changes at those ludicrous speeds. That is why I support this idea, Vne is a (rather simplistic) way to apply a limit to the system that has a basis in reality. After all, MOST of the Eve physics engine is based on what we understand(stood) about reality and space travel. I don't think CCP would keep PhD mathematicians and physicists on staff otherwise. Just my two isk..... * *
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:40:00 - [10] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 05:45:21 Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 05:44:20 Originally by: Sylthi I support this idea whole-heartedly. This is brilliant in its simplicity and elegance. AND, most importantly, it is a direct slap to the "balance" team's way of doing things. CCP's answer to perceived "problems" is ALWAYS the same: namely, bring out the nerf-bat and bludgeon EVERYTHING in sight to death. It is so nice to see someone bringing up a POSSITIVE way to deal with this issue rather than all of this negativity we constantly get from the devs. Lesson CCP: Be POSSITIVE in your solutions. Add NEW stuff to deal with "issues" that you perceive rather than simply breaking out the nerf-bat to bludgeon the player base into submission. Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along. But, nice to see someone is actually TRYING. Thank you OP. Thank you, I just wanted an idea that didnt destroy all the effort that people put in to their toons.(wile still addressing the issues) And it just makes sence. A person cant expect to just put some ungodly engine in to a car, and go 6000 MPH with out the car falling apart and killing the driver. No matter if its a car/plane/boat there is ALWAYS a limit to how far you can push it.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:53:00 - [11] Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 05:53:14 Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that. So following you logic a ship orbiting another ship at say 8k/ms is not suffering from G-force loading, vibration, Hull stress, and such?? No, you are skewing my logic to prove me wrong. Of course that would be unreasonable. Yet the issue here is not the velocity as you suggest but rather the radial acceleration, which should definitely be limited. I am not talking about change in speed I'm talking about change in the velocity vector. As such: Quote: Actually, if you want to get REALLY technical, acceleration is ONE of the ways you get all of the above factors in 0-G. But, when applied to Eve combat situations, the PRIMARY way you would get load stress is from rapid vector changes at those ludicrous speeds. Rapid vector change is acceleration by definition. I'm not just talking about linear acceleration; I do understand 3 dimensional vector mechanics. It is this combination of speed and agility that is problematic. Ships could go as fast as they want as long as they turn like a tungsten school bus as limited by their maximum acceleration.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 06:03:31 Originally by: Fahtim Meidires No, you are skewing my logic to prove me wrong. Actualy thats not true. I asked a rhetorical question, to prove my point. I didnt skew any thing. PS I didnt sugest that velocity was the issue here, only that a Vne is a effective awnser to the speed issue. Since it would no longer matter how you fit your ship with an imposed Vne on the hull you are flying.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Sylthi Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along I fear thatÆs going to be the case since they already started down the "hit em with the W.M.D. of nerf bats" route
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:14:00 - [14] Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 06:14:43 Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 06:14:07 Originally by: Rezaa Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 06:03:31 Originally by: Fahtim Meidires No, you are skewing my logic to prove me wrong. Actualy thats not true. I asked a rhetorical question, to prove my point. I didnt skew any thing. PS I didnt sugest that velocity was the issue here, only that a Vne is a effective awnser to the speed issue. Since it would no longer matter how you fit your ship with an imposed Vne on the hull you are flying. A rhetorical question does not prove anything if it is rebutted. The fact remains that while it may solve the problem, it is more artificial than actually implementing sound mathematics and physics. Our individual views are the extremes, and personally I think the current mechanic is a balance this is believable enough physically, but simple enough for a time-sensitive mmorgp.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:22:00 - [15] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 06:23:24 Originally by: Fahtim Meidires A rhetorical question does not prove anything if it is rebutted. But you didnÆt rebut, you conceded the point. Then you switched tactÆs to a different point.
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:27:00 - [16] Firstly...it is like that in real life because there's air. There's none in space. Secondly...that would just mean that every ship of X type goes Y speed, rather than it varying based on modules, skills, implants, etc.
brainball GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Sylthi Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along I fear thatÆs going to be the case since they already started down the "hit em with the W.M.D. of nerf bats" route I think its more a case of how do you implement this system in a way that is fast efficient and does not generate any form of extra strain on the servers. If at any point in developing an answer you come across the idea of major redesigning the server back-end some people might find the sudden urge to kick you in the ballsack. As the amount of time and money that would needed to be spent on such endeavors would far outweigh any result they will bring. Ideas that sound nice are nice, but they also need to be practical and implementable. From what I read of your idea it sounds like a hell of a thing to implement without causing extra lag to a game already suffering enough of that.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Firstly...it is like that in real life because there's air. There's none in space. Secondly...that would just mean that every ship of X type goes Y speed, rather than it varying based on modules, skills, implants, etc. First=== READ THE THREAD!! Vne doesnt have any thing to do with air resistance in this case. Second EXACTLY!!!!! So all the people with skills trained or ALOT of ISK in to mods/implants donÆt get shafted. But the speeds are still brought down. So itÆs a WIN-WIN for every one.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:39:00 - [19] Originally by: brainball I fear thatÆs going to be the case since they already started down the "hit em with the W.M.D. of nerf bats" route I think its more a case of how do you implement this system in a way that is fast efficient and does not generate any form of extra strain on the servers. If at any point in developing an answer you come across the idea of major redesigning the server back-end some people might find the sudden urge to kick you in the ballsack. As the amount of time and money that would needed to be spent on such endeavors would far outweigh any result they will bring. Ideas that sound nice are nice, but they also need to be practical and implementable. From what I read of your idea it sounds like a hell of a thing to implement without causing extra lag to a game already suffering enough of that. How is that? You already have a throttle (that you never use). And we also have the triggered event damage (over loading modules) Our speeds are already tracked (Look at your over view) The only question comes down to ôhow much damage VRS how much speed over Vneö The tools needed to do this are already in game in one form or another. But as I said in the thread we would probably need a better throttle to help regulate our speeds easer.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:43:00 - [20] You cannot artificially set a Vne in space. I'm moving in a straight line - not practical for combat or anything but travel, but I'm gonna do it. My thrusters are activated on LOW - the acceleration on my ship is very small. There are no other forces acting on my ship. Why would I eventually top out at a speed? No there is no hull stress b/c I'm accelerating slowly. There are no G-forces b/c I am not turning or accelerating excessively fast. What physical property is limiting my top speed? Or is it purely artificial? Turning radius should be affected. This is why you align slower as you are moving faster. This is why when you try to orbit at 5km with your MWD active, you don't move at top speed. Thing is, these are currently implemented because the devs understand basic 3-dimensional kinematics. The fact that there is no air resistance is very, very relevant. Vne relative to what? The grid? The Ether? Please.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires You cannot artificially set a Vne in space. I'm moving in a straight line - not practical for combat or anything but travel, but I'm gonna do it. My thrusters are activated on LOW - the acceleration on my ship is very small. There are no other forces acting on my ship. Why would I eventually top out at a speed? No there is no hull stress b/c I'm accelerating slowly. There are no G-forces b/c I am not turning or accelerating excessively fast. What physical property is limiting my top speed? Or is it purely artificial? Turning radius should be affected. This is why you align slower as you are moving faster. This is why when you try to orbit at 5km with your MWD active, you don't move at top speed. Thing is, these are currently implemented because the devs understand basic 3-dimensional kinematics. The fact that there is no air resistance is very, very relevant. Vne relative to what? The grid? The Ether? Please. Since you seem so insistent IÆll answer your question. But before I do I would suggest you brush up on you physics. A Vne can very likely be explained by the hull stress associated with passing through the gravitational wells of all the celestial objects with in a given system. However to be truly accurate CCP would need to calculate the gravity wells (due to their mass) of every item in a given system. And plot their proximity to one another. Since this is not feasible a static Vne makes more sense.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires You cannot artificially set a Vne in space. I'm moving in a straight line - not practical for combat or anything but travel, but I'm gonna do it. My thrusters are activated on LOW - the acceleration on my ship is very small. There are no other forces acting on my ship. Why would I eventually top out at a speed? No there is no hull stress b/c I'm accelerating slowly. There are no G-forces b/c I am not turning or accelerating excessively fast. What physical property is limiting my top speed? Or is it purely artificial? Turning radius should be affected. This is why you align slower as you are moving faster. This is why when you try to orbit at 5km with your MWD active, you don't move at top speed. Thing is, these are currently implemented because the devs understand basic 3-dimensional kinematics. The fact that there is no air resistance is very, very relevant. Vne relative to what? The grid? The Ether? Please. Since you seem so insistent IÆll answer your question. But before I do I would suggest you brush up on you physics. A Vne can very likely be explained by the hull stress associated with passing through the gravitational wells of all the celestial objects with in a given system. However to be truly accurate CCP would need to calculate the gravity wells (due to their mass) of every item in a given system. And plot their proximity to one another. Since this is not feasible a static Vne makes more sense. The Only time I would be passing through anything like this is during warp, but at sub-warp speeds I don't thing this phenonmenon is an Issue. Show some maths saying that gravity wells aren't completely negligible at current game speeds (I'll let you go up to 20 km/s).
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:16:00 - [23] As I said please brush up on your physics. I am not going to continue a conversation with some one that is #1 looking to argue. (As you appear to be) #2 not competent to carry on the conversation. First you say that there is nothing to warrant a Vne, now you say ôI donÆt think that is an issueö with out denying the plausibility of the argument. IÆm not going to banter with you.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:26:00 - [24] Just for kicks and giggles, because I feel nice tonight. Here is the reference material you need to get up to Speed. Dynamical friction
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:28:00 - [25] Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 07:30:51 Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 07:28:47 Originally by: Rezaa As I said please brush up on your physics. I am not going to continue a conversation with some one that is #1 looking to argue. (As you appear to be) #2 not competent to carry on the conversation. First you say that there is nothing to warrant a Vne, now you say ôI donÆt think that is an issueö with out denying the plausibility of the argument. IÆm not going to banter with you. What area of science am I 'clearly incompetent'? I'm not doing this just to argue. You may be right but you haven't provided enough evidence to warrant my support (or that of many others). I'm trying to strengthen your case as an alternative to the proposal in the dev blog. edit: Perfect, thank you. I'll read through that. Also, I've been quite clear that I don't support a Vne but would support a limit on maximum net acceleration.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:37:00 - [26] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 07:43:38 As I said in my other thread, I kept things simple for the masses since most people would be able to understand it with the analogies I used in the post. P.S. IÆll leave the math to you, I am not nearly motivated enough on this subject to dust off my graphing calculator. So I assume I have your support now? Edit Mass is mass ill regardless of the source. Just remember celestial objects are ORDERS OF MAGNATUDE larger than even a titan.
Fahtim Meidires GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:42:00 - [27] edit2: OK, gave it a look. Sounds like this phenomenon would occur if a titan flew by a bunch of frigs, dragging them along. Does it work the other way with ships moving relative to planets? On that part I'm not convinced but I'll give you my thumbs up for your massive effort here. Maybe this deserves some sort of consideration.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:44:00 - [28] See edit above
Alex TheCat	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:45:00 - [29] TTYTT, velocity never exceeds some value in case there is some major counterforce, like friction. In space, there is no friction, so the only limiting factors are the engine thrust and the mass of the ship. If you install some module, that gives you +XX% velocity, this means that you increase the engine thrust. If you install nanos, you decrease the mass. If you add this "VNE" value, you may make the modules useless. It is not the right way to do it. You may as well add "DPSNE", "CargoNE", "Sensor StengthNE" and so on. It should not be done like this, but should instead be balanced by the means of tuning the mass, thrust (base velocity) and modules effects.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:47:00 - [30] Originally by: Rezaa See edit above Got it, good stuff m8
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Alex TheCat TTYTT, velocity never exceeds some value in case there is some major counterforce, like friction. In space, there is no friction, so the only limiting factors are the engine thrust and the mass of the ship. If you install some module, that gives you +XX% velocity, this means that you increase the engine thrust. If you install nanos, you decrease the mass. If you add this "VNE" value, you may make the modules useless. It is not the right way to do it. You may as well add "DPSNE", "CargoNE", "Sensor StengthNE" and so on. It should not be done like this, but should instead be balanced by the means of tuning the mass, thrust (base velocity) and modules effects. If you donÆt read the posts you only show your lack on knowledge on this matter. For gods sake at LEAST read the link I posted. THERE IS FRICTION IN SPACE!
Monuturattilor	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:55:00 - [32] Im not against the nano nerf.. but i think in general this is better.. very interesting read..
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 08:03:00 - [33] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 08:03:44 Originally by: Fahtim Meidires Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 07:53:30 Originally by: Rezaa See edit above edit: Yeah that works. I don't understand how it's applicable and will defer for now. Now letÆs get real technical: every time a ship would traverse a gravity well at an oblique angle the effective thrust vector changes. As a result the ship would have to change its own thrust vector to maintain its course. In effect trying to bend the ship. IÆll leave you to draw your own conclusions on what effect this would have on a ship. But in my mind all these factors add up to a pretty conclusive argument for a Vne
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:06:00 - [34] I don't mean to bump this back up as I don't support the idea but he is right. There is indeed friction in space. The idea that space is a vacuum is incorrect. Due to the nature of gas and matter there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. That being said there is very little resistance in space compared to an atmosphere but there is still random stuff everywhere. However I do have an additional issue with the idea that further separates me from being able to support it. The problem is you must assign this damage a type and that type can also have a resistance or else you basically have to do a massive rewrite of the games dynamics from what I understand. So while you would cause a problem to speeders the nature of damage would remain so that it had to pass threw the shields and armor which can in some cases have VERY high resistances thus making them capable of sustaining these speeds. If it were somehow limited to only the hull then all you would need is a hull repper to be able to maintain a significant speed still. Removing one low slot will slow folks down but not a hell of a lot in some cases. If the damage is still done by damage type then a DCU II could mitigate it further and turn some ships into speed freaks while others would be hugely nerfed. Not a fix IMHO. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:49:00 - [35] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 17:53:14 Originally by: Red Raider I don't mean to bump this back up as I don't support the idea but he is right. There is indeed friction in space. The idea that space is a vacuum is incorrect. Due to the nature of gas and matter there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. That being said there is very little resistance in space compared to an atmosphere but there is still random stuff everywhere. However I do have an additional issue with the idea that further separates me from being able to support it. The problem is you must assign this damage a type and that type can also have a resistance or else you basically have to do a massive rewrite of the games dynamics from what I understand. So while you would cause a problem to speeders the nature of damage would remain so that it had to pass threw the shields and armor which can in some cases have VERY high resistances thus making them capable of sustaining these speeds. If it were somehow limited to only the hull then all you would need is a hull repper to be able to maintain a significant speed still. Removing one low slot will slow folks down but not a hell of a lot in some cases. If the damage is still done by damage type then a DCU II could mitigate it further and turn some ships into speed freaks while others would be hugely nerfed. Not a fix IMHO. Gravity fields are not affected by shields or armor. If an object has mass then it is subject to gravity.(at extreme scales even if some thing doesnÆt have mass, its STILL subject to gravity) So resistance factors are completely irrelevant. You can NOT resist gravity. No one is saying this is a perfect out of the box idea. Of coarse it needs some details worked out. However its A LOT better then Nerfing + of the modules in game, and screwing over the people that spent time training skills, or those people that spend huge sums of ISK on implants. Edit Hull repers are very power hungry. Trying to run even 1 SEROUSLY gimps a speed set up. Not to mention the DPS as well. If you had actualy read the other thread you would have seen this topic has been coverd in detail.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 18:29:00 - [36] Edited by: Red Raider on 01/08/2008 18:30:54 Originally by: Rezaa Gravity fields are not affected by shields or armor. If an object has mass then it is subject to gravity.(at extreme scales even if some thing doesnÆt have mass, its STILL subject to gravity) So resistance factors are completely irrelevant. You can NOT resist gravity. And you dont mave to assign a DMG type. Look at over loaded modules (of corse it stated as heat) there is no resistance check there. Only a skill check. No one is saying this is a perfect out of the box idea. Of coarse it needs some details worked out. However its A LOT better then Nerfing + of the modules in game, and screwing over the people that spent time training skills, or those people that spend huge sums of ISK on implants. Edit: Hull repers are very power hungry. Trying to run even 1 SEROUSLY gimps a speed set up. Not to mention the DPS as well. If you had actualy read the other thread you would have seen this topic has been coverd in detail. Edit 2: Even if some one had 6 hull repers runing remember that Vne is a DMG over speed. IE go to far over Vne and it dosent matter cause you could INSTA POP you self. NOT to mention nano's REDUCE YOUR HULL HP!!!!! First I agree that the speed should be relative to the mass. However in reality thats far from how CCP has the game set up as the Caldari who historically used smaller, faster, more agile, close range ships to fight the Gallante somehow use slower, larger, and long range ships now. Shields are energy not matter and therefore have no mass yet people are complaining about the mass changes to caldari ships and the lighter caldari ships are even slower now than ever. So this argument is counter intuitive to the way CCP has configured the ships entirely. Size and mass seem to have nothing in common with signature radius and speed despite appearing to be directly linked. A Rohk is huge and slow compared to any Gallente Battleship yet its physically smaller and lighter. Which makes absolutely no sense but there ya go. After seeing the changes I don't like them either but we need the correct fix the first time not the wrong fix several times until we get it right. I don't care how power hungry a hull reper is if the damage is to be anywhere near realistic then its going to start low and get higher the faster you go, so a hull reper gives a buffer zone in which this person can function and depending upon how fast the person wants to go they simply need more hull rep. Which is a form of tanking though its disfunctional at best allows a speed tanker to focus on that with 2 modules and allows his mids to be diverted to EW or cap. It won't be the same but it wont be much of a nerf either. Yes nano's reduce your hull HP's and yes its damage past a certain speed but your not going to insta pop and if you do I really don't like the idea because lag would kill every pilot capable of going over Vne. Sorry but I still don't agree. I would rather see CCP to fix ships to be realistic to their historical accuracy and physical parameters and properly balance the ships from there rather than nerf half the module but thats what they are going to do it appears. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:07:00 - [37] Originally by: Red Raider First I agree that the speed should be relative to the mass. However in reality thats far from how CCP has the game set up as the Caldari who historically used smaller, faster, more agile, close range ships to fight the Gallante somehow use slower, larger, and long range ships now. Shields are energy not matter and therefore have no mass yet people are complaining about the mass changes to caldari ships and the lighter caldari ships are even slower now than ever. So this argument is counter intuitive to the way CCP has configured the ships entirely. Size and mass seem to have nothing in common with signature radius and speed despite appearing to be directly linked. A Rohk is huge and slow compared to any Gallente Battleship yet its physically smaller and lighter. Which makes absolutely no sense but there ya go. After seeing the changes I don't like them either but we need the correct fix the first time not the wrong fix several times until we get it right. I don't care how power hungry a hull reper is if the damage is to be anywhere near realistic then its going to start low and get higher the faster you go, so a hull reper gives a buffer zone in which this person can function and depending upon how fast the person wants to go they simply need more hull rep. Which is a form of tanking though its disfunctional at best allows a speed tanker to focus on that with 2 modules and allows his mids to be diverted to EW or cap. It won't be the same but it wont be much of a nerf either. Yes nano's reduce your hull HP's and yes its damage past a certain speed but your not going to insta pop and if you do I really don't like the idea because lag would kill every pilot capable of going over Vne. Sorry but I still don't agree. I would rather see CCP to fix ships to be realistic to their historical accuracy and physical parameters and properly balance the ships from there rather than nerf half the module but thats what they are going to do it appears.[/quote WOW! You are wrong on so many issues I donÆt even know where to start. So wrong in fact I have to wonder if all you want to do is argue. First off: Caldari have ALWAYS BEEN HEAVER AND SLOWER then every one else comparatively. Second: LAG is not an issue. This has also been covered in detail in the other thread. PLEASE READ IT!! Third: Signature radius is not based in fact. ItÆs an artificial balancing tool. And as such HAS NO RELATION TO MASS OR AGILITY. So you canÆt use a scientific argument to justify an EMAGANARY ship trait. BTW: if you ACTUALY read the descriptions of the of the Rohk VRS Gal ships you will see it has a TON more mass then them!! Not to mention it is long and narrow unlike Gal ships and as such it will have a much higher moment of inertia. Rohk= 120 Million KG Domi=105 Million KG Mega=102.5 Million KG Hyp=102.5 Million KG I really HATE it when people come in here talking out the side of their mouth with out the slightest IDEA of what they are talking about.
Tatsue Nuko Stimulus	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Nerd hat on: True that there is no air resistance, but there is a (relatively speaking) large amount of hydrogen, helium and some oxygen atoms out there in solar space - hell, even in intergalactic space sending your spaceship into relativistic speeds is going subject it to some rather phenomenal impacts since at those speeds even singular atom impacts will have some rather huge energy releases. That said, EVE lore avoids the ussue through utilizing warp as the solution for faster-than-light travel, and the speeds we're talking about in normal maneuvering are miniscule - actually slower than the space shuttle in most cases. So yeah... I've always been a bit annoyed about that part of travel in EVE - gief Elite-style newtonian physics engine please. :D
J Kunjeh	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:26:00 - [39] Fully supported, as I did in the first thread. This idea should at least be talked about and thought over by CCP. It may not work/be feasible in the end, but it's an interesting idea that presents some interesting mechanics.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:34:00 - [40] Originally by: J Kunjeh Fully supported, as I did in the first thread. This idea should at least be talked about and thought over by CCP. It may not work/be feasible in the end, but it's an interesting idea that presents some interesting mechanics. Thank you I/we need all the thumbs up we can get LOL
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:19:00 - [41] Originally by: Rezaa WOW! You are wrong on so many issues I donÆt even know where to start. So wrong in fact I have to wonder if all you want to do is argue. So anyone that disagrees with you is not only wrong but is being argumentative. Originally by: Rezaa First off: Caldari have ALWAYS BEEN HEAVER AND SLOWER then every one else comparatively. Your incorrect. During the war the reason why the Gallente developed drones was to counter the small fast ships of the Caldari. Early on the Caldari focused their efforts in one man fighters but when drones were developed they increased the size, shielding, and firepower of those one man fighters and called them frigates. They then were the first race to be given pod technology by the Jovians and employed it successfully in battle against the Gallente. I suggest you read the chronicles. Gallente-Caldari War: The early days Gallente-Caldari War: The breakout Gallente-Caldari War: The war drones on The Chronicles make reference to the Gallente ships as slow hulking ships that are not much more than orbital bombardment platforms. That being said how does a blaster shoot the (in Earth dimensions) 160km's to the surface of the planet? It doesn't, a railgun can though and would be capable of covering a large area of the planets surface because it can fire from a higher altitude. How ships are currently designed and how they were from the start is not correct according to the history of the races produced by CCP. Why...who knows but in this I assure you I am correct. Originally by: Rezaa Second: LAG is not an issue. This has also been covered in detail in the other thread. PLEASE READ IT!! Why this obsession with the idea that I didn't read your other thread? I did read it and your response to how lag will be a non-issue is equivalent to saying that doesnÆt exist at all. The truth is it does and will kill pilots who try to limit their speed. The lag will reduce a pilot's effectiveness in using throttle and knowing how fast one is traveling will be delayed to the point where if you don't know your going really fast then you will simply "pop" and not know or be able to do anything about it because of the lag. Unless your proposing additional changes to the games UI and then thatÆs not a simple Vne change now is it? Originally by: Rezaa Third: Signature radius is not based in fact. ItÆs an artificial balancing tool. And as such HAS NO RELATION TO MASS OR AGILITY. So you canÆt use a scientific argument to justify an EMAGANARY ship trait. Signature radius is indeed based in fact. If your sensors pick up gravemetric or gravity wells then your mass is what makes you a target. The game was intended to work this way but it was never adopted. However, the principle still applies that signature radius is based on the size of a ship. Frigates have a very small signature radius and battleships have a large sig. The problem comes when you park a Rohk next to a ship that is larger in length, width, and height like the Hyperion and Megathron. Then, and thanks for saving me the trouble of looking it up, you point out that the Rohk, the smaller ship, has more mass. It has the largest signature radius too. It has the same hull or less than both the Mega and Hyperion and less armor than the Hyperion. Yet more mass? What do the Caldari build their ships out of the heaviest possible materials they can find? Do they use some kind of unknown material in this world that is not only really heavy but intentionally returns gigantic sensor signatures? I doubt it. So while it has a basis in the game on size as demonstrated it fails to follow those rules on a ship to ship basis though it does quite well on a class to class basis. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:20:00 - [42] Originally by: Rezaa BTW: if you ACTUALY read the descriptions of the of the Rohk VRS Gal ships you will see it has a TON more mass then them!! Not to mention it is long and narrow unlike Gal ships and as such it will have a much higher moment of inertia. Do me a favor and stop making yourself look stupid. The Hyperion, Megathron, and Thorax are not long and narrow? CouldaÆ fooled me. Of course they(Mega and Hyperion) are longer, wider, and taller than the Rohkàbut that makes the Rohkàsmaller. Yet heavier and not an armor tankà.not that that makes sense or anything but donÆt let that get in your way. Oh the shape of the object doesnÆt make a damn bit of difference as to how much inertia it has. ONLY the mass of the object but hey I only work in Aerospace building some of the most sophisticated aircraft in the world I donÆt have a clue what I am talking about. Oh and I know about the mass, thanks for making my point. Originally by: Rezaa I really HATE it when people come in here talking out the side of their mouth with out the slightest IDEA of what they are talking about. Take your own advice then. Quit talking out your ass. Now if someone doesnÆt agree with your point of view you need to learn to accept it. You have done nothing in this thread or the other to dispel virtually any concerns others have expressed that made any sense whatsoever. Badgering people to try and stop isnÆt going to convince them you are correct. Make an argument, if they donÆt agree then donÆt repeat the argument and call them stupid too. You got a lot of good comments over there but over here is where the rubber meets the road and your arguments are weak and so is your idea. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
TJ17 Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:20:00 - [43] i support this
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 22:08:00 - [44] WOW Red youÆre brain is so full of fail itÆs astounding. IÆm sorry you seem to lack the education/intelligence to understand these concepts. But here is a helpful hint for you: DonÆt confuse GAME LORE with GAME FACTS! Any one that has been here for a decent amount of time would know first hand the Caldari have ALWAYS been slower and less agile then all the other races. ItÆs been that way since Beta and itÆs that way now. Sorry but itÆs the truth. And youÆre assertion about the shape of mass not affecting moment of inertia is flabbergasting. I am truly astounded some one would profess to understand these dynamics and then spew something like that. Since you seem so incompetent in this subject IÆll provide you some reading to educate your mind. So next time you might be able to comment on this subject in an intelligent fashion. Moment of inertia On a side note: Signature radius is based in fact HUH?? Ok for arguments sake show me a link to ANY SENSOR anywhere in the world that measures sig. radius. Any sensor that has EVER been made OR ANY SENSOR THAT IS PROPOSED FOR THE FUTURE! And I will relent my argument, and publicly apologize! You work in an ôAerospaceö building HUH? I guess it doesnÆt take much education to clean out the bathrooms.
Linistitul	Posted - 2008.08.01 22:56:00 - [45] I support this idea
Alpha	Posted - 2008.08.01 23:03:00 - [46] I really like this..
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 23:04:00 - [47] Thanks guys
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 23:13:00 - [48] Edited by: Red Raider on 01/08/2008 23:14:00 Originally by: Rezaa WOW Red youÆre brain is so full of fail itÆs astounding. IÆm sorry you seem to lack the education/intelligence to understand these concepts. But here is a helpful hint for you: DonÆt confuse GAME LORE with GAME FACTS! Any one that has been here for a decent amount of time would know first hand the Caldari have ALWAYS been slower and less agile then all the other races. ItÆs been that way since Beta and itÆs that way now. Sorry but itÆs the truth. And youÆre assertion about the shape of mass not affecting moment of inertia is flabbergasting. I am truly astounded some one would profess to understand these dynamics and then spew something like that. Since you seem so incompetent in this subject IÆll provide you some reading to educate your mind. So next time you might be able to comment on this subject in an intelligent fashion. Moment of inertia On a side note: Signature radius is based in fact HUH?? Ok for arguments sake show me a link to ANY SENSOR anywhere in the world that measures sig. radius. Any sensor that has EVER been made OR ANY SENSOR THAT IS PROPOSED FOR THE FUTURE! And I will relent my argument, and publicly apologize! You work in an ôAerospaceö building HUH? I guess it doesnÆt take much education to clean out the bathrooms. Rezaa the Moment of Inertia is based on a body rotating. Not the directional velocity of the body. Again, anyone who disagrees with you is now ignorant? I never said that Caldari ships were at any time IN the game faster than Minmatar but the lore says they are. So my point is why would the game be completely different the the story's that are free to people joining the game? We don't know but it would be far more interesting if they were. The lore was written by CCP so that makes it an out of game fact. Oh and check your stats again. Almost every single Caldari frigate is more agile than the other races frigates just for starters. The stat is called inertia modifier I believe(not in front of EVE atm) and less inertia means better agility. So my point is shields weigh nothing and armor and structure weigh TONS. Why do shield ships weigh more and go slower than armor ships. It's counter intuitive. This has NOTHING to do with your Vne proposal so why don't we agree to disagree and leave this part out of future discussions. Signature radius is an all encompassing term for "how well your detected" so while your busy pulling you foot out of your mouth why don't you look Infrared sensors, motion detectors, radar, and ladar. If you say signature radius has nothing to do with how these works then your wrong. The easiest example is how can a person be detected by a home security motion sensor and yet a fly can zoom around happily without setting the sensor off? Well its because it can't detect the fly because it's cross section or signature is too small. Sounds a hell of a lot like signature radius to me but don't let reality stop you. Again, you try and insult people to get your way. Then you question my education after you cant even understand the principles that apply to the link you posted. And I fail? A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 23:28:00 - [49] Per you wiki link describing moment of inertia as: "it is the inertia of a rigid rotating body with respect to its rotation." This is used to determine the stresses imposed on rotating bodies. This is how they figure out how to balance the tires on your car. Not the maximum tolerances of a body in straight and level flight. Air or no air(because as has been pointed out by me and others there is in fact always air). I don't want an apology. Just stop defending your idea like people who don't agree are ignorant. You don't even have to say your wrong. Hell I even defended the basis of the idea in the other thread shortly after you posted it but here and there you attack people who don't agree and its not conducive to proving your idea is sound. At a minimum you need to edit and clarify your original post in both threads and discuss how you would resolve lag issues. I still don't think it would be resolved because your proposal is to simply "never step on the gas" yet thats what nets you the best acceleration right? So by never stepping on the gas you never get up to speed as fast as possible and throttle back or you throttle up and hope lag doesn't kill you. Hence the lag problem. Not to mention the additional calculations the server would have to perform would amount to additional load for each ship so even more lag. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.02 00:19:00 - [50] Edited by: Red Raider on 02/08/2008 00:20:10 Correction I supported the Vne damage effects in this thread on the first page not the other thread. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.02 03:00:00 - [51] Edited by: Rezaa on 02/08/2008 03:04:21 LMAO You amuse me. I donÆt think I have ever met someone so self adsorbed and convoluted in my life. Good luck with that. EDIT: Theres always air HUH? Keep toking on that HOOKAH. It will solve every thing for ya.
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Rezaa Edited by: Rezaa on 02/08/2008 03:04:21 LMAO You amuse me. I donÆt think I have ever met someone so self adsorbed and convoluted in my life. Good luck with that. EDIT: Theres always air HUH? Keep toking on that HOOKAH. It will solve every thing for ya. Again you attack me and tell me that I am the problem. Vacuum A vacuum is a volume of space that is essentially empty of matter, such that its gaseous pressure is much less than atmospheric pressure. [1] The word comes from the Latin term for "empty," but in reality, no volume of space can ever be perfectly empty. A perfect vacuum with a gaseous pressure of absolute zero is a philosophical concept that is never observed in practice. Keep making yourself look stupid Rezaa. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Rock Fairy	Posted - 2008.08.04 18:30:00 - [53] I like the construct of the idea here gets my support The "Rock" Fairy
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.04 18:43:00 - [54] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. Or it could be based off of a COMBINATAION of factors. Hell a Vne could be blamed on the Fuzzy DICE falling off the rear view mirror. Any of them work. But itÆs the principal of a Vne that follows logic. Even if I somewhat think that these hyper-technologic ships, which in addition seem rather like solid blocks right now, would most likely be able to tolerate a great deal of stress, this whole idea very much appeals to me. And I would like to see it implemented, with or without the changes that I myself have proposed.
Red Thunder Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.04 21:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Red Thunder on 04/08/2008 21:38:21 Rezaa, check out this thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838894 It is very similar to what you are suggesting, but I have made an equation to automatically calculate the top speed of the ships. /edit its not a wall of text either, so its easy on the eyes :) Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines

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