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[Proposal] A new way of dealing with the speed issue.

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Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:42:00 - [1] Well most every one hates the speed nerf in its current incarnation. I have an idea that would address the issue with out dramatically changing the dynamics of the current game play. Also with out destroying the effort people have made to train skills, Buy mods, Implants. I started a thread in the Game development forum with this idea. And it was pointed out that I might want to post it here. So in an effort to gain some exposure here I go. ----------------- Copyed from thread----------------- I have a simple and elegant solution that would address the proposed speed problem. One in which I believe the player base with accept with out too much fuss and it still will address the speed issue definitively. IÆm not sure how knowledgeable you are with aeronautical terminology so I will keep things simple. I propose there be a new facet introduced to all ships. (Not just hull based) And that new facet should be called Vne (Velocity Never Exceed). This is an actual aircraft rating in the real world. In layman terms itÆs a speed at which you start causing abnormal stress/damage to an aircraftÆs hull. IE if you exceed the Vne too much for too long the wings will rip off or cause other catastrophic damage. By instituting this new dynamic you will be able to effectively kill the ôludicrousö speed as noted in the blog. With out the huge sweeping changes that are on SISI now. As an idea how this would work: say a ship has a Vne rating of 5k/ms. Now if that same ship exceeds that rating it would start incurring hull damage. Now the amount of damage incurred VRS the amount of speed over the rated Vne is of course variable. And just as in real ships/aircraft some hulls are built more heavily then others. Since this new dynamic is based in real life most every one will understand it and accept it. And bluntly it just makes sense that this is how things should work. Just as in real life: sure you can strap a MX missile to your back, nothing is stopping you. But youÆre not going to live long if you fire that bad boy off. But an important effect of instituting a change like this is you can leave all the modules and implants at their current nominal values. So people with snakes in their heads or people that have a lot of time in trained skills donÆt wined up having their efforts completely destroyed. Of course no one is ever happy at the prospect of having their efforts completely destroyed by the institution of a new policy. I think most every one would agree that this would not kill small gang warfare, but rather it would add a new dynamic to the necessary piloting skills to be successful. Since speed tanked ships donÆt fit reps having even a small amount of hull/armor damage is a huge factor in the decision making process of any one piloting a nano/speed tanked ship. Conversely people might actually fit remote hull repairers to their ships for after combat repairs. And since these modules are very power thirsty, I would not think they would/could be use them wile still in combat. And I would bet most people would acknowledge that remote hull reps are almost completely absent from roaming speed gangs. MOST importantly in the end analyses making a change like this adds new decision VRS penalty choice that every pilot would have to make. Yes people would be able to go at ôludicrousö speeds, but NOT FOR LONG and not with out a PENALTY. And as an added benefit since you are not making a huge change to the game dynamic. So I would expect the resulting ôUNEXPECTED result of X nerfö would be greatly diminished. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link=====My idea in the other forum There has been alot of good ideas thrown out in the thread. Please check it out and post your thoughts.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:57:00 - [2] This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. Or it could be based off of a COMBINATAION of factors. Hell a Vne could be blamed on the Fuzzy DICE falling off the rear view mirror. Any of them work. But itÆs the principal of a Vne that follows logic.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. Or it could be based off of a COMBINATAION of factors. Hell a Vne could be blamed on the Fuzzy DICE falling off the rear view mirror. Any of them work. But itÆs the principal of a Vne that follows logic. don't feel bad a LOT of people don't understand how space works. support, but I still add that it just build up your heat meter in the middle of the UI. Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that.
Sylthi Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:26:00 - [6] I support this idea whole-heartedly. This is brilliant in its simplicity and elegance. AND, most importantly, it is a direct slap to the "balance" team's way of doing things. CCP's answer to perceived "problems" is ALWAYS the same: namely, bring out the nerf-bat and bludgeon EVERYTHING in sight to death. It is so nice to see someone bringing up a POSSITIVE way to deal with this issue rather than all of this negativity we constantly get from the devs. Lesson CCP: Be POSSITIVE in your solutions. Add NEW stuff to deal with "issues" that you perceive rather than simply breaking out the nerf-bat to bludgeon the player base into submission. Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along. But, nice to see someone is actually TRYING. Thank you OP. * *
Red Raider Caldari Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. E=mc2 As the speed of the object increases the mass of the object increases. So as the speed increases the internal stresses being placed upon the ship by the creation of its own gravity well and outside sources of gravity increase along side it. The ship would crush itself somewhere between a full stop and the speed of gravity not including anything else like...I don't know... being shot maybe? Agility is already addressed but as far as Vne not being realistic its simply a reflection of your education that you don't know the theory of (special)relativity and how it applies in space. Oh and don't give me that "its just a theory" crap because its a theory until it's proven right or wrong and right now its neither but it does work in Newtonian physics which do apply to all things larger than the atomic level quite well. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that.[/quote So following you logic a ship orbiting another ship at say 8k/ms is not suffering from G-force loading, vibration, Hull stress, and such?? Hmmmm...........Well if thats you position so be it. Every one is entitled to their oppinion.
Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires This was a lot longer until I read through the other thread. Short version: In space, there is no air resistance so Vne is not justified in an rp sense. Every time some one posts this response IÆm shocked and dismayed, because this was covered OVER AND OVER in the thread. Read please Vne doesnÆt have to be based off of drag/resistance, But rather G-force loading, Vibration, Hull stress, Heat or any number of influencing factors. G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that. Actually, if you want to get REALLY technical, acceleration is ONE of the ways you get all of the above factors in 0-G. But, when applied to Eve combat situations, the PRIMARY way you would get load stress is from rapid vector changes at those ludicrous speeds. That is why I support this idea, Vne is a (rather simplistic) way to apply a limit to the system that has a basis in reality. After all, MOST of the Eve physics engine is based on what we understand(stood) about reality and space travel. I don't think CCP would keep PhD mathematicians and physicists on staff otherwise. Just my two isk..... * *
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:40:00 - [10] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 05:45:21 Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 05:44:20 Originally by: Sylthi I support this idea whole-heartedly. This is brilliant in its simplicity and elegance. AND, most importantly, it is a direct slap to the "balance" team's way of doing things. CCP's answer to perceived "problems" is ALWAYS the same: namely, bring out the nerf-bat and bludgeon EVERYTHING in sight to death. It is so nice to see someone bringing up a POSSITIVE way to deal with this issue rather than all of this negativity we constantly get from the devs. Lesson CCP: Be POSSITIVE in your solutions. Add NEW stuff to deal with "issues" that you perceive rather than simply breaking out the nerf-bat to bludgeon the player base into submission. Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along. But, nice to see someone is actually TRYING. Thank you OP. Thank you, I just wanted an idea that didnt destroy all the effort that people put in to their toons.(wile still addressing the issues) And it just makes sence. A person cant expect to just put some ungodly engine in to a car, and go 6000 MPH with out the car falling apart and killing the driver. No matter if its a car/plane/boat there is ALWAYS a limit to how far you can push it.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:53:00 - [11] Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 05:53:14 Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires G force, vibration, hull stress, and heat all come from acceleration not your top speed. I would support an acceleration cap. Fuzzy dice, I doubt anyone's gonna go for that. So following you logic a ship orbiting another ship at say 8k/ms is not suffering from G-force loading, vibration, Hull stress, and such?? No, you are skewing my logic to prove me wrong. Of course that would be unreasonable. Yet the issue here is not the velocity as you suggest but rather the radial acceleration, which should definitely be limited. I am not talking about change in speed I'm talking about change in the velocity vector. As such: Quote: Actually, if you want to get REALLY technical, acceleration is ONE of the ways you get all of the above factors in 0-G. But, when applied to Eve combat situations, the PRIMARY way you would get load stress is from rapid vector changes at those ludicrous speeds. Rapid vector change is acceleration by definition. I'm not just talking about linear acceleration; I do understand 3 dimensional vector mechanics. It is this combination of speed and agility that is problematic. Ships could go as fast as they want as long as they turn like a tungsten school bus as limited by their maximum acceleration.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 06:03:31 Originally by: Fahtim Meidires No, you are skewing my logic to prove me wrong. Actualy thats not true. I asked a rhetorical question, to prove my point. I didnt skew any thing. PS I didnt sugest that velocity was the issue here, only that a Vne is a effective awnser to the speed issue. Since it would no longer matter how you fit your ship with an imposed Vne on the hull you are flying.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Sylthi Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along I fear thatÆs going to be the case since they already started down the "hit em with the W.M.D. of nerf bats" route
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:14:00 - [14] Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 06:14:43 Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 06:14:07 Originally by: Rezaa Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 06:03:31 Originally by: Fahtim Meidires No, you are skewing my logic to prove me wrong. Actualy thats not true. I asked a rhetorical question, to prove my point. I didnt skew any thing. PS I didnt sugest that velocity was the issue here, only that a Vne is a effective awnser to the speed issue. Since it would no longer matter how you fit your ship with an imposed Vne on the hull you are flying. A rhetorical question does not prove anything if it is rebutted. The fact remains that while it may solve the problem, it is more artificial than actually implementing sound mathematics and physics. Our individual views are the extremes, and personally I think the current mechanic is a balance this is believable enough physically, but simple enough for a time-sensitive mmorgp.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:22:00 - [15] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 06:23:24 Originally by: Fahtim Meidires A rhetorical question does not prove anything if it is rebutted. But you didnÆt rebut, you conceded the point. Then you switched tactÆs to a different point.
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:27:00 - [16] Firstly...it is like that in real life because there's air. There's none in space. Secondly...that would just mean that every ship of X type goes Y speed, rather than it varying based on modules, skills, implants, etc.
brainball GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Sylthi Of course, CCP is going to blatantly ignore this like the do every other good and reasonable idea that comes along I fear thatÆs going to be the case since they already started down the "hit em with the W.M.D. of nerf bats" route I think its more a case of how do you implement this system in a way that is fast efficient and does not generate any form of extra strain on the servers. If at any point in developing an answer you come across the idea of major redesigning the server back-end some people might find the sudden urge to kick you in the ballsack. As the amount of time and money that would needed to be spent on such endeavors would far outweigh any result they will bring. Ideas that sound nice are nice, but they also need to be practical and implementable. From what I read of your idea it sounds like a hell of a thing to implement without causing extra lag to a game already suffering enough of that.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Firstly...it is like that in real life because there's air. There's none in space. Secondly...that would just mean that every ship of X type goes Y speed, rather than it varying based on modules, skills, implants, etc. First=== READ THE THREAD!! Vne doesnt have any thing to do with air resistance in this case. Second EXACTLY!!!!! So all the people with skills trained or ALOT of ISK in to mods/implants donÆt get shafted. But the speeds are still brought down. So itÆs a WIN-WIN for every one.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:39:00 - [19] Originally by: brainball I fear thatÆs going to be the case since they already started down the "hit em with the W.M.D. of nerf bats" route I think its more a case of how do you implement this system in a way that is fast efficient and does not generate any form of extra strain on the servers. If at any point in developing an answer you come across the idea of major redesigning the server back-end some people might find the sudden urge to kick you in the ballsack. As the amount of time and money that would needed to be spent on such endeavors would far outweigh any result they will bring. Ideas that sound nice are nice, but they also need to be practical and implementable. From what I read of your idea it sounds like a hell of a thing to implement without causing extra lag to a game already suffering enough of that. How is that? You already have a throttle (that you never use). And we also have the triggered event damage (over loading modules) Our speeds are already tracked (Look at your over view) The only question comes down to ôhow much damage VRS how much speed over Vneö The tools needed to do this are already in game in one form or another. But as I said in the thread we would probably need a better throttle to help regulate our speeds easer.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:43:00 - [20] You cannot artificially set a Vne in space. I'm moving in a straight line - not practical for combat or anything but travel, but I'm gonna do it. My thrusters are activated on LOW - the acceleration on my ship is very small. There are no other forces acting on my ship. Why would I eventually top out at a speed? No there is no hull stress b/c I'm accelerating slowly. There are no G-forces b/c I am not turning or accelerating excessively fast. What physical property is limiting my top speed? Or is it purely artificial? Turning radius should be affected. This is why you align slower as you are moving faster. This is why when you try to orbit at 5km with your MWD active, you don't move at top speed. Thing is, these are currently implemented because the devs understand basic 3-dimensional kinematics. The fact that there is no air resistance is very, very relevant. Vne relative to what? The grid? The Ether? Please.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Fahtim Meidires You cannot artificially set a Vne in space. I'm moving in a straight line - not practical for combat or anything but travel, but I'm gonna do it. My thrusters are activated on LOW - the acceleration on my ship is very small. There are no other forces acting on my ship. Why would I eventually top out at a speed? No there is no hull stress b/c I'm accelerating slowly. There are no G-forces b/c I am not turning or accelerating excessively fast. What physical property is limiting my top speed? Or is it purely artificial? Turning radius should be affected. This is why you align slower as you are moving faster. This is why when you try to orbit at 5km with your MWD active, you don't move at top speed. Thing is, these are currently implemented because the devs understand basic 3-dimensional kinematics. The fact that there is no air resistance is very, very relevant. Vne relative to what? The grid? The Ether? Please. Since you seem so insistent IÆll answer your question. But before I do I would suggest you brush up on you physics. A Vne can very likely be explained by the hull stress associated with passing through the gravitational wells of all the celestial objects with in a given system. However to be truly accurate CCP would need to calculate the gravity wells (due to their mass) of every item in a given system. And plot their proximity to one another. Since this is not feasible a static Vne makes more sense.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Rezaa Originally by: Fahtim Meidires You cannot artificially set a Vne in space. I'm moving in a straight line - not practical for combat or anything but travel, but I'm gonna do it. My thrusters are activated on LOW - the acceleration on my ship is very small. There are no other forces acting on my ship. Why would I eventually top out at a speed? No there is no hull stress b/c I'm accelerating slowly. There are no G-forces b/c I am not turning or accelerating excessively fast. What physical property is limiting my top speed? Or is it purely artificial? Turning radius should be affected. This is why you align slower as you are moving faster. This is why when you try to orbit at 5km with your MWD active, you don't move at top speed. Thing is, these are currently implemented because the devs understand basic 3-dimensional kinematics. The fact that there is no air resistance is very, very relevant. Vne relative to what? The grid? The Ether? Please. Since you seem so insistent IÆll answer your question. But before I do I would suggest you brush up on you physics. A Vne can very likely be explained by the hull stress associated with passing through the gravitational wells of all the celestial objects with in a given system. However to be truly accurate CCP would need to calculate the gravity wells (due to their mass) of every item in a given system. And plot their proximity to one another. Since this is not feasible a static Vne makes more sense. The Only time I would be passing through anything like this is during warp, but at sub-warp speeds I don't thing this phenonmenon is an Issue. Show some maths saying that gravity wells aren't completely negligible at current game speeds (I'll let you go up to 20 km/s).
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:16:00 - [23] As I said please brush up on your physics. I am not going to continue a conversation with some one that is #1 looking to argue. (As you appear to be) #2 not competent to carry on the conversation. First you say that there is nothing to warrant a Vne, now you say ôI donÆt think that is an issueö with out denying the plausibility of the argument. IÆm not going to banter with you.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:26:00 - [24] Just for kicks and giggles, because I feel nice tonight. Here is the reference material you need to get up to Speed. Dynamical friction
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:28:00 - [25] Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 07:30:51 Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 01/08/2008 07:28:47 Originally by: Rezaa As I said please brush up on your physics. I am not going to continue a conversation with some one that is #1 looking to argue. (As you appear to be) #2 not competent to carry on the conversation. First you say that there is nothing to warrant a Vne, now you say ôI donÆt think that is an issueö with out denying the plausibility of the argument. IÆm not going to banter with you. What area of science am I 'clearly incompetent'? I'm not doing this just to argue. You may be right but you haven't provided enough evidence to warrant my support (or that of many others). I'm trying to strengthen your case as an alternative to the proposal in the dev blog. edit: Perfect, thank you. I'll read through that. Also, I've been quite clear that I don't support a Vne but would support a limit on maximum net acceleration.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:37:00 - [26] Edited by: Rezaa on 01/08/2008 07:43:38 As I said in my other thread, I kept things simple for the masses since most people would be able to understand it with the analogies I used in the post. P.S. IÆll leave the math to you, I am not nearly motivated enough on this subject to dust off my graphing calculator. So I assume I have your support now? Edit Mass is mass ill regardless of the source. Just remember celestial objects are ORDERS OF MAGNATUDE larger than even a titan.
Fahtim Meidires GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:42:00 - [27] edit2: OK, gave it a look. Sounds like this phenomenon would occur if a titan flew by a bunch of frigs, dragging them along. Does it work the other way with ships moving relative to planets? On that part I'm not convinced but I'll give you my thumbs up for your massive effort here. Maybe this deserves some sort of consideration.
Rezaa Pandemonium Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:44:00 - [28] See edit above
Alex TheCat	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:45:00 - [29] TTYTT, velocity never exceeds some value in case there is some major counterforce, like friction. In space, there is no friction, so the only limiting factors are the engine thrust and the mass of the ship. If you install some module, that gives you +XX% velocity, this means that you increase the engine thrust. If you install nanos, you decrease the mass. If you add this "VNE" value, you may make the modules useless. It is not the right way to do it. You may as well add "DPSNE", "CargoNE", "Sensor StengthNE" and so on. It should not be done like this, but should instead be balanced by the means of tuning the mass, thrust (base velocity) and modules effects.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:47:00 - [30] Originally by: Rezaa See edit above Got it, good stuff m8

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