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CCP: Please Disband the CSM

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Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:27:00 - [271] I pretty much agree. Disband it. It's useless. The CSM was created for no other reason than to put some whitewash over the T20 corruption scandal. CCP never intended the CSM to be anything but a PR exercise. If they meant it to be at all what they make it appear to be, the "combat downgrade" on the test server would at least have been gone over with them. The CSM doesn't give we, the players, who are the real owners of EVE (because it would close without our cash) any voice at all.
Leon 026 Caldari Vorace. Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:31:00 - [272] On a more politically observant note, I'm going to go with me giving Jade a chance, afterall he has what, 6 month or so left on his term? What he and the CSM accomplish during the remaining time of their term will define how history will view the people that currently make up the CSM, not wall of texts, but concrete evidence of action. Already there are people claiming that the CSM had a hand in the heavy-handed nano-nerf. Recruiting
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:33:00 - [273] Originally by: Nyphur ..... The CSM was supposed to distill public opinion and present the remaining 5% of good ideas to CCP. Hilmar Petursson, CCPÆs chief executive, said in a telephone interview. ôEve Online is not a computer game. It is an emerging nation, and we have to address it like a nation being accused of corruption... where you announce your candidacy, and if you win the election, they come here to Iceland, and they can look at every nook and cranny and get to see that we are here to run this company on a professional basis" From the NY Times. Just FYI. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:33:00 - [274] Originally by: Richard Angevian The CSM was created for no other reason than to put some whitewash over the T20 corruption scandal. CCP never intended the CSM to be anything but a PR exercise. If they meant it to be at all what they make it appear to be, the "combat downgrade" on the test server would at least have been gone over with them. The last vestige of people with nothing more to add is always the t20 scandal. Yes, we know. Anything CCP does is bad because of t20. The CSM is there to see people face to face and judge what's going on there in person. That's not whitewash imo, and frankly with people like you nothing can possibly salvage their reputation, so why comment at all? Quote: we, the players, who are the real owners of EVE (because it would close without our cash) The second to last vestige of people with nothing useful to add is always to bring up money and how they need us for money. Nice input though. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:33:00 - [275] Originally by: Nevada Tan Originally by: Jade Constantine I think I'll avoid commentating since the meeting is still going on. Might be the professional thing to do no? If the meeting was still going on, shouldn't you have been chairing it instead of defending your e-honor in this thread? Read our earlier minutes and understand how rotating chair on introduced issues works. If you are interested in procedure rather than simply trolling of course. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Incip	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:37:00 - [276] Have you ever posted where you weren't trying to sneakily insult someone? (even though you suck at making it subtle)
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:38:00 - [277] Want to influance Eve game mechanics? Find an issue you have.. erm.. issues with then do exhaustive tests on sisi and tq then post a detailed writeup in the Game Development Forum with identified problems and detailed workarounds/solutions. Ignore all player feedback posts. If its valid then CCP will probably use it even if they don't publicly ackowledge your contribution. There all done with no need to include e-peen political metagaming into the process. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:43:00 - [278] Originally by: Victor Valka Thread delivers. LOLs are being had by onlookers. Indeed! San Matari Official forums
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:44:00 - [279] Outcome of todays meeting. Full Chatlog of meeting 8 is here. 1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue CSM voted 4-4 not to escalate or make any kind of collective statement on the current speed patch on SISI. 2. Musical Instruments in Ambulation - Bane CSM voted to escalate this proposal. 3. Specific Proposal for 0.0 Sovereignty Revamp - Jade CSM voted against escalating this proposal. 4. Remove Ship Maintenance Bay Restriction - Inanna CSM voted to escalate this proposal. 5. Covert Cyno Fields should ignore Cyno Jammers - Jade/Tusko CSM voted to escalate this proposal. 6. Turn Titans into Mobile Stations - Bane CSM voted to escalate this proposal. 7. Remote rep criminal flagging is broken - Jade CSM voted to escalate this proposal. 8. Autopilot Options in FW - Avoid enemy Sov - Inanna CSM voted to escalate this proposal. 9. Covert Jump bridge activation range (too short) - Jade CSM voted to escalate this proposal. 10. Changing Carriers Combat Roles - Bane Meeting adjourned before the vote because we slipped beneath the quorum with people needing to leave. Issue will be revoted on the next agenda. 11. Prime fiction for the 3rd bloodline (more needed) - Jade Delayed till next meeting 12. MOTD for Fleet/Gang window - Jade Delayed till next meeting Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:45:00 - [280] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: Nyphur ..... The CSM was supposed to distill public opinion and present the remaining 5% of good ideas to CCP. Hilmar Petursson, CCPÆs chief executive, said in a telephone interview. ôEve Online is not a computer game. It is an emerging nation, and we have to address it like a nation being accused of corruption... where you announce your candidacy, and if you win the election, they come here to Iceland, and they can look at every nook and cranny and get to see that we are here to run this company on a professional basis" From the NY Times. Just FYI. That's not what the CSM was initially intended to do, hence the whole forum for bringing important issues to the CSM for consideration and the process of the CSM bringing important issues to CCP's attention. It's a good marketing hook, though, kudos to whoever at CCP figured out they could use the CSM's presence in Iceland to deflect past indescretions in the media. Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:48:00 - [281] Originally by: Nevada Tan Originally by: Jade Constantine I think I'll avoid commentating since the meeting is still going on. Might be the professional thing to do no? If the meeting was still going on, shouldn't you have been chairing it instead of defending your e-honor in this thread? Such comments are worthless and don't add anything! There is obviously some perception problem with the CSM. If that is because they are not doing a good PR job or because there is really a problem cannot be decided easily. But if many players never heard of the CSM or what they are doing and what their use is, then it surely doesn't cast a good light on the current things. For the benefit of the doubt one can add that such things like CSM is new to CCP and the CSM members also. Furthermore it can be added that the CSM are no professional RP managers and are (probably) cast into the cold water. However, what I would like to see is (a) more professionality of their members (this thread shows why this is necessary) and (b) better public relations maybe with regular news at the login screen or other messages. Also there should be clear guidelines for everyone visible how the selection process of the topics are working. Or is all going on behind closed doors? Then nothing at all is won by installing such a CSM! When are topics put down and when are they accepted as important? Just because some CSM members say so? I think the CSM _could_ be an interesting tool to help CCP identifying problems more easy and to get more quickly some solutions. At the moment it is not really I think. Take the nano-nerf for example. It would be great if the CSM could help CCP there and condense the posts from players who made experience at sisi. There are lots of numbers floating in these threads mixed with all sort of crap. Difficult to read for the devs. CSM could go and get these posts and put them into a spreadsheet for example. Sure, that is work - but what else would be expected from being in CSM? It is work to help. But to help CCP and Eve community is the drive behind the CSM members? So yes, future will show if they can make the CSM a valuable tool for Eve community and CCP or if it will be just a fancy thing.
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.03 19:51:00 - [282] Originally by: Frug Originally by: Richard Angevian The CSM was created for no other reason than to put some whitewash over the T20 corruption scandal. CCP never intended the CSM to be anything but a PR exercise. If they meant it to be at all what they make it appear to be, the "combat downgrade" on the test server would at least have been gone over with them. The last vestige of people with nothing more to add is always the t20 scandal. Yes, we know. Anything CCP does is bad because of t20. The CSM is there to see people face to face and judge what's going on there in person. That's not whitewash imo, and frankly with people like you nothing can possibly salvage their reputation, so why comment at all? Quote: we, the players, who are the real owners of EVE (because it would close without our cash) The second to last vestige of people with nothing useful to add is always to bring up money and how they need us for money. Nice input though. If CCP took corruption seriously t20 would have been fired along with any other devs who were doing similar things (and I seriously doubt he was the first, just the first to get caught. I note that the person who revealed the scam got permabanned from EVE, and has a name that CCP will delete any time it's uttered, but the person who actually did it still works for them. Must be nice, because I don't think any of us would still have OUR jobs after a similar breech of ethics that resulted in harm to our customers... As far as we know, because there isn't any transparency at all (ie: no reports on how many Devs are in each alliance) it's STILL going on, they are just being smarter about it. There just isn't any reason at all to think that it isn't because CCP didn't get rid of the rotten apple nor do they give the CSM (or us) any proof to the contrary. The CSM idea came about after the bad press. Covering that over is it's sole purpose. The bad changes that are on the test server are proof positive that CCP has no intention whatsoever of allowing the players through the CSM have any "governance" over the game. Like nearly everyone else I agree that there needs to be a fix to stop large ships from achieving insane speeds but what is on Sisi right now is the equivalent of killing a fly with a nuke. So, CSM'ers, hope you enjoyed the trip, and the L5 Advanced Ego skill training completing, but the fact of the matter is that you don't matter, the CSM doesn't matter, and indeed it's doing even more harm because some people are foolish enough to think that it matters...
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:04:00 - [283] [ 2008.08.03 19:08:17 ] Darius JOHNSON > How many 0.0 sov contests have you been in ankh? [ 2008.08.03 19:08:33 ] Bane Glorious > "It may only work half way, and halfway isn't all the way, but half of the way is still part of the way, and that's worth something" [ 2008.08.03 19:08:52 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Remember I took a tour through 0.0 to ask dozens of people their opinions on that, Darius. [ 2008.08.03 19:09:09 ] Ankhesentapemkah > So I got quite a good view what joe average in 0.0 thinks. [ 2008.08.03 19:09:12 ] Darius JOHNSON > Man I wish I could do a survey and make sweeping statements about what is good or bad [ 2008.08.03 19:09:31 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Well at least I talk to joe averages. [ 2008.08.03 19:09:31 ] Darius JOHNSON > Fact: You have 0 experience [ 2008.08.03 19:09:39 ] Bane Glorious > I don't mean to be rude, but a few hours (maybe?) in 0.0 is really not a comprehensive understanding [ 2008.08.03 19:09:39 ] Darius JOHNSON > So don't tell me what's boring [ 2008.08.03 19:09:44 ] Dierdra Vaal > guys, we are getting off track here... [ 2008.08.03 19:09:57 ] Ankhesentapemkah > If 50 RANDOM people in game say so, who are you to question that? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep....I for sure want she-whose-name-sounds-like-sneeze to be involved in anything to do with ship/game balancing. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:09:00 - [284] Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/08/2008 20:11:01 Originally by: Jade Constantine 1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue CSM voted 4-4 not to escalate or make any kind of collective statement on the current speed patch on SISI. Your finished. You dont support the most popular issues youve ever had. Resign now and save face SKUNK EDIT: By this i mean the csm as a whole - not you personaly.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:14:00 - [285] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/08/2008 20:16:19 Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/08/2008 20:11:01 Originally by: Jade Constantine 1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue CSM voted 4-4 not to escalate or make any kind of collective statement on the current speed patch on SISI. Your finished. You dont support the most popular issues youve ever had. Resign now and save face SKUNK EDIT: By this i mean the csm as a whole - not you personaly. I kinda agree tbh. I think it was pretty poor not even to issue a statement advising people to go on the test server. Bad mistake collectively. Still read the whole log and see what you think. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:19:00 - [286] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/08/2008 20:11:01 Originally by: Jade Constantine 1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue CSM voted 4-4 not to escalate or make any kind of collective statement on the current speed patch on SISI. Your finished. You dont support the most popular issues youve ever had. Resign now and save face SKUNK And what would you vote on? There are only vague thoughts in the dev blog and they clearly say that everything are only suggestions and certainly will tweaked this way or that way. What would you vote on the nano-nerf? There is nothing to vote on because there is no proposal with numbers the devs made. They will probably change a lot of numbers and then you would have to make another proposal and then the change again numbers and so on. Better wait until there is a semi-descent model on sis with numbers you can trust that they don't get wildly changed the next day. THEN is the time to speak out. NOW At the moment it is time to go on Sisi and gather numbers and write them down on the development forum. You would look rather stupid if CCP changes the numbers so that everything will working fine - just different than what we know right now. And you see, everyone yells that nano-nerf means massive increase in blobs. What do you think will CCP do? They are forced even more to think about things which will reduce the blob. So in the end massive blobs would be even good in a way It would speed up the development which leads to their tear-down.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:20:00 - [287] Originally by: Jade Constantine I kinda agree tbh. I think it was pretty poor not even to issue a statement advising people to go on the test server. COP-OUT collectively. Still read the whole log and see what you think. I read the whole log. I fixed a small bit of your comment for you. Oh well...maybe I can play harmonica in EvE Ambulation. Maybe not given that I have had sound turned off in EvE for 18 months . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:22:00 - [288] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 03/08/2008 20:11:01 Originally by: Jade Constantine 1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue CSM voted 4-4 not to escalate or make any kind of collective statement on the current speed patch on SISI. Your finished. You dont support the most popular issues youve ever had. Resign now and save face SKUNK EDIT: By this i mean the csm as a whole - not you personaly. Agree. The CSM is a FAIL just from that alone. More than 1,000 have agreed with the petition AGAINST the changes on Sisi, more than probably any other issue ever posted there. And the CSM won't speak for us on it when that is supposed to be the whole point. Did I mention FAIL?
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:23:00 - [289] Edited by: Frug on 03/08/2008 20:25:03 Originally by: Richard Angevian If CCP took corruption seriously t20 would have been fired along with any other devs who were doing similar things (and I seriously doubt he was the first, just the first to get caught. I note that the person who revealed the scam got permabanned from EVE, and has a name that CCP will delete any time it's uttered, but the person who actually did it still works for them. Must be nice, because I don't think any of us would still have OUR jobs after a similar breech of ethics that resulted in harm to our customers... I don't know if you're just repeating something you know has been said enough times since the incident just to vent or because you like to repeat things. We know already. There's no point in repeating this opinion. All you're doing is bringing it up again. It's too late to fire him now, so give it a rest. Originally by: Richard Angevian it's STILL going on, they are just being smarter about it. So quit playing the game, because you're simply making an ass of yourself by making accusations with no basis and showing that that's all you've got to go on. You add nothing to any discussion with this trash. Originally by: Richard Angevian The bad changes that are on the test server are proof positive that CCP has no intention whatsoever of allowing the players through the CSM have any "governance" over the game. The fact that you're muddling balance issues with the rest of this, when both issues are completely unrelated shows a lot about the integrity of your argument. There is no relation between the two topics. The CSM isn't there to vote on the outcome of balance decisions. They're there to bring an issue they think needs balancing to the table, and it's up to CCP to judge what should be done. You don't like their balance changes, but all you're doing is whining about something you don't like and somehow trying to connect this with t20. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:25:00 - [290] After reading those minutes all I can say is this. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:29:00 - [291] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: Jade Constantine I kinda agree tbh. I think it was pretty poor not even to issue a statement advising people to go on the test server. COP-OUT collectively. Still read the whole log and see what you think. I read the whole log. I fixed a small bit of your comment for you. First thing you and I agree on for a long time Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Leon 026 Caldari Vorace. Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:36:00 - [292] The excuse of "its not final, so we haven't tested it (or we dont even know its on SiSi), nor do we care" is quite appalling. Recruiting
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:39:00 - [293] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: Jade Constantine I kinda agree tbh. I think it was pretty poor not even to issue a statement advising people to go on the test server. COP-OUT collectively. Still read the whole log and see what you think. I read the whole log. I fixed a small bit of your comment for you. First thing you and I agree on for a long time Tossing out a one-liner in the way I chuck a scrap of fat to my dog in no way, shape, or form excuses you from the previous ten or so pages of pure distortion on your part. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:45:00 - [294] Originally by: Leon 026 The excuse of "its not final, so we haven't tested it (or we dont even know its on SiSi), nor do we care" is quite appalling. Its really quite embarrassing. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:46:00 - [295] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 03/08/2008 20:49:11 Ok, it's taken me about an hour to thoroughly read this thread (extremely amusing), I hope I forgive myself. A few thoughts I wanted to share: - I believe the CSM has a role and ought to exist. In my opinion, whether it is or isn't reaching its expectations is not a fault of its design - The votes were cast. I don't recall anything happening that would constitute a condition valid as a premise for a dissolution of the CSM. Vote differently next time, you get what you vote for (or damn, stand for it yourself). But whines will most likely continue, because many aren't mature enough to live with the consequences of their actions (or inactions) - Lastly, what I find disappointing (but not surprising, of course) is that most of the people who complain don't try to provide solutions to the problems they perceive as manifest in the CSM other than a swift disbanding. And no, opting for something arbitrary to replace the CSM is not constructive (nor a testament to any effort on the part of the hawk), there are solutions that are compatible with the current design, and they must be explored. San Matari Official forums
isdisco3 Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:48:00 - [296] Edited by: isdisco3 on 03/08/2008 20:52:14 As I said earlier, I'll support the csm when: 1. it produces a body of work worth respecting (seriously, who cares about musical instruments? this is eve-guitar-hero?) 2. its chair and members don't get into public ****ing contests with detractors. part of the job is to take insults without responding in kind. PR ftw! I am not optimistic that the CSM can serve any useful purpose, but I'll give them a reasonable amount of time to prove to me that they do. It's been what, 3-4 months now? I'll give them until December, and if they don't do anything reasonable by then, I will write them off with pessimistic abandon. edit - I also don't mind Jade's focus on 0.0 sov / cynojammer revamping. 0.0 is stupidly annoying at present, and that stuff desperately needs a revisit. If you can get a reasonable solution on that, that would fill part 1 of my 2-part requirement.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:50:00 - [297] Originally by: isdisco3 2. its chair and members don't get into public ****ing contests with detractors. part of the job is to take insults without responding in kind. PR ftw! That was always my weakness tbh. If it was written in the CSM docs "though shalt not tell a numpty thou art a numpty" I might not have run ... Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:53:00 - [298] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: isdisco3 2. its chair and members don't get into public ****ing contests with detractors. part of the job is to take insults without responding in kind. PR ftw! That was always my weakness tbh. If it was written in the CSM docs "though shalt not tell a numpty thou art a numpty" I might not have run ... So it is a funny little metagame to you and not a serious position to be responsible for. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.03 21:08:00 - [299] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Leon 026 The excuse of "its not final, so we haven't tested it (or we dont even know its on SiSi), nor do we care" is quite appalling. Its really quite embarrassing. Everyone in the CSM should be ashamed of themselves. This was your first test of relevancy in your role of being the player's voice and you didn't even bother to try.
Shaol Amathera	Posted - 2008.08.03 21:21:00 - [300] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: isdisco3 2. its chair and members don't get into public ****ing contests with detractors. part of the job is to take insults without responding in kind. PR ftw! That was always my weakness tbh. If it was written in the CSM docs "though shalt not tell a numpty thou art a numpty" I might not have run ... So...what you're saying is that you wouldn't have run if you weren't allowed to insult people. This, in turn, indicates that you prefer to insult people, and may even enjoy it. Based on your posting activity, i'd wager that you love to cut people down. Presumably, you're in a position of authority as a CSM. Part of being a good leader is treating people in a respectful manner. When you treat people with respect, they're more likely to respect you. True authority is born from respect for the good character and trustworthiness of the person who leads. Your apparent professed enjoyment in acting in a disrespectful manner towards the people in your community as their leader and chairman of the CSM doesn't inspire trust or belief in your good character.

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