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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:52:00 -
[1]
I think the biggest problem with falcons is their range - not their jam strength. With a covert cloak and the ability to jam from 180-200km away they have a tendency of completely buggering gangs up. If they were brought down to only 100km range however...
"But you can't do that! It's too close and I wouldn't be able to fly my falcon!"
So get a rook. As it stands the rook is useless when compared to the falcon - yay more dps? Lowering the jamming range on a falcon would make a defining statement between the rook and falcon.
Rook - Jam strength and range out to 200km
Falcon - Jam strength and range out to 100km, but with a covert cloak to make up for the range loss
People don't realize how useful the cloaks are. Most of the people that vouch for falcons to remain as they are, are mostly from 0.0 alliances where blobs are common place. Falcons completely muck up smaller gangs where you have less than 5-10 people to a side because you don't get the diversity you do with a 60 man gang.
That being said - Yes, my alt flies a falcon and gets recon V in less than a week for it. Yes, I fly it and still want it toned down. Yes, I pvp mostly in low-sec where ridiculously sized gangs aren't too much of an issue. Yes, falcons screw over small gang pvp.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:54:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Spartan dax
Oh please! The Rook is horribly bipolar, Long range jamming coupled with medium range missiles? It's the Rook that needs changing to make people prefer it over the Falcon.
Drop the stupid range bonus on it, move a mid to a low and give it some speed/damage/agility/drone bay or something instead. In fact, make it a bigger kitsune with teeth. That is the way to get people into rooks.
Er, I'm pretty sure people don't hop into falcons or rooks to do dps. The launchers are there primarily for self-defense I'd think.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:51:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Falcons are *slow*
Falcons have NO tank
Falcons align like your average brick
Check EFT and you'll find they have the fastest align time. Sure, they might not be nano'd to help but base they still have the quickest alignment. As for no tank, you don't need to tank much @ 200km in a small fight in low-sec. Small gangs is where they really shine as being overpowered.
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Counters to falcons:
1) Bring EWAR of your own, either Damps or your own ECM ships (blackbirds, falcons, rooks etc)
Damps only work out to 90km or so, and if you mwd out far enough to damp them they can just warp off and come back in as they please.
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2) Fit ECCM mods. Trust me, if you are packing ECCM you are going to make that falcon's life miserable. Don't crunch silly numbers, do it, see how effective it is. And it IS effective, especially in recons, command and battleships.
ECCM does work to extent, but not nearly as much as small engagements go. When you can put double the amount of jammers on the more important ships to jam simply because there aren't as many people, their ECCM isn't as effective.
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3) Send your fast movers after their falcons.
Not everyone flies nano'd, and sometimes you can't spare an extra person for a smaller ship in a smaller engagement. With the upcoming patch it will be harder to do that even if you do get a nano pilot.
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4) Use FOF missiles whenever a falcon starts jamming (most of the time they are WELL within cruise range, and if you have cerbs they're within heavy launcher range too).
Yeah..... no.
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5) Have faster ships get close and use drones to run them off.
Same as 3.
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Bottom line is that the Falcon, Rook, Scorpion, Blackbird and Kitsune fill 1 role, and only 1 role. NONE of them have impressive damage output. The Kitsune, Falcon, Rook and Blackbird can't even fit drones to augment their pathetic dps unlike their counterparts for other races. They are NOT solo pwnmobiles. Without a gang these ships are absolute junk. They are a gang support ship and ONLY a gang support ship.
Bottom line is that there's no reason to fly a rook. If they removed the range (NOT THE STRENGTH) of the falcon, it would balance it out quite nicely between the two.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:23:00 -
[4]
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Just because your gangs can't be arsed to properly fit or fly for counter-EWAR roles is NOT the fault of a ship that is already underpowered in the combat arena. Take away their jammers and those ships are utterly useless. ECM has already been nerfed, twice, and it's barely on par with the other ships.
In small gangs you still get jammed, regardless of ECCM. Like I said before, the less people the more jammers available. You also don't get the diversity of a large gang.
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Arazu/Lach: Excellent gang support AND a solid solo PVP craft
Curse/Pilgrim: Excellent gang support and solid solo PVP craft
Rapier/Huginn: Excellent gang support and solid solo PVP craft
Falcon/Rook: Excellent Gang support......
As someone mentioned earlier - None of the other recons completely disable you from 200km out like a falcon can. If you can't lock you can't do damage, keep tackle, nos/neut, remote rep, or do anything that requires a lock. Can a rapier do that with it's webs and painters?
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Counter for Arazu/Lach: bring your own ewar.... or burn towards them.
Counter for Curse/Pilgrim: Fit passive tank and use non cap guns.... out-drain them.... bring your own ewar
Counter for Rapier/Huginn: Kill it, nothing really complicated about it.
Counter for Falcon/Rook: Bring your own ewar.... burn towards them and launch drones.... fit ECCM modules... Use FoF Missiles....
If this is truly all you can think up, its no wonder we're having this argument.
Arazu's and Lach's are very cap unstable and damps don't work nearly as well as they used to. Drones eat them up nicely too.
Pilgrims need to operate in web range (more or less) putting them at a very big disadvantage. Kill a curse's drones and it can't do any damage.
Rapiers and huginns still need cap to mwd around, I've found neuts work well to get rid of them - or just lots of drakes.
Which leaves me with the falcon and rook!
Any cloaked ship has a great "oh shit" factor when you've sat there scouting out a hostile gang only to have them uncloak on you in the middle of the fight. You can't scout a falcon if it's cloaked, so more often than not you aren't prepared for it because you've fit for what you've scouted. Which I guess is true for any Covert recon, but I can deal with being damped by shitty damps, I can deal with being webbed, I can deal with being nossed/neuted from something within web range. But being rendered useless by something sitting 150-200km out because you couldn't scout it and fit specific mods to counter it? Bit much for me.
Drop the range down to 100km on a falcon and keep it to 200km for a rook - I'd be much happier. How many rooks do you see flying around nowadays anyway? The stealth, range, and strength simply makes falcons too strong as far as smaller engagements go. Removing the range is the most sensible to me.
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As you can see ALL of the 'electronic warfare' specialty ships have both strengths and counters. And, interestingly, all but ONE of them is effective both solo and in gang warfare.
None of the others break multiple people's locks.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 13:03:00 -
[5]
It's not even really that ECM works as well as it does, it's how well it works from a stupidly high range. Might not be much of an issue for people in 0.0 due to an abundance of snipe-fit battleships, but small engagements in low-sec? Forget it.
I'd consider falcons to be twice the ship the rook is just because it can cloak and jam with the same strength and range.
This is what it looks like now:
Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range
Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, long jam range
This is what I'd like to see it come to:
Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range
Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, much lesser jam range
Seems a bit more balanced between the two, eh? Everyone disregards the cloak for some reason. It's a pretty big deal.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 13:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Spartan dax
Oh fine let's say CCP adheres to your whining and removes the optimal bonus, what does it get instead? If you're clever enough to come up with a way to make sure the Falcon isn't overpowered then you should be smart enough to come up with a usefull bonus for it while demanding it nerfed.
So what does it get, a 5% kinetic damage bonus?
Maybe a missile velocity or precision bonus so it can attempt to combat any interceptors that run after it or something. While you're at it, it could probably use three missile slots rather than just two, simply take off a turret hardpoint. Maybe a shield resist bonus? I'm sure CCP could think something up.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 14:08:00 -
[7]
So your argument is not to change anything because you personally don't know what to change it to? Sound logic. When you come up valid points to my arguments feel free to post.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 15:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
What is about ppl like you who wanna put every ship in the game into one class that can be killed by anything with a range of 80km?.
What is it about people like you that don't read anything I post? Rooks would still be able to jam out to 200km, they just wouldn't have a cloak on top of it. If you didn't want to be killed by 'anything with a range of 80km' then you'd use a rook.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 15:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Then who cares about the falcon jamming at 200km if the rook will still be able to both need to warp off if they are locked and approached or will you be crying about the fact the rook can align and warp off if summat gets close it it next?.
This is what I mean when people completely disregard the cloak. You can scout a rook out unless he fits a regular cloak, and then he gets dealt properly with penalties. If you see it before hand you'll know that you will need to deal with it and can prepare. Can you do that when you missed the falcon that can warp and get into position without being seen?
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 15:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
No nerf needed then all you need are:-
1. Better scouts and better organization in your gangs to deal with it then, cos unless the falcon was born, lived and grew up in the system your in then its gonna need to uncloak to jump thgrough gate and that is what your scouts should be looking for
2. If you are roaming a rook can be sitting cloaked in a pounce point and warp in when you jump through a gate and by the time he lands any cloaking penalty will be gone.
The cloak on a falcon does not really benefit it as a ecm ship any more than cloaks benifit all the other recons that can warp cloaked.
Want to sell clue.
Any ship that can warp cloaked is a valuable scout ship. At least a rook sitting in a pounce point can't warp around following people. Did I mention it still locks people slower too? Also, a lot of people fit probes to their falcons to catch people sitting in safe spots and give warp ins...can't do that with a cloaked rook eh?
Post with your main or I'll just consider you to be a troll.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 15:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Spartan dax
You don't get it. What you're describing, the midrange jammer that can chase off inties, that is the Combat recon but currently that combat recon sucks at doing that. A Falcon with its puny launchers and hitpoints would get ganked by a Bantam trying to do this.
Are you considering the rook to be midranged ECM-wise or dps-wise? To me, the launchers are more for self-defense than offensive capabilities. If the speed nerfs go through then it might be a bit easier to hit things with the missiles.
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Sure the speednerf might help slightly but what really needs to be done is making the Rook more attractive as an alternative to the Falcon.
Which is what the falcon 'nerf' would be doing. Restoring the role of a rook.
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But to play along with your little Non optimal Falcon charade.
Usefull bonuses: (per lvl)
5% more agility
5% more CAP
5% more speed
That nifty MWD bonus the Thorax gets
5% smaller sigradius
5% per level might be overdoing it but those are all good ideas.
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And of course you'd have to redesign locking ranges so it locks faster and shorter as well. A 25m3 dronebay would hardly overpower it come to think of it.
If they didn't redo the hardpoint lay out and add a damage bonus, I wouldn't mind seeing a drone bay either. Again though, 25m3 might be overdoing it.
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Hell I'd fly that, 25% more agility, 25m3 drone bay.... Not a gang ship anymore. Please give me one.
How would it not be a gang ship? You'd still have 0 tank and about 10 dps from the launchers, maybe a little more if given light drones to use.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 16:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
I am a troll so tough.
Not surprised.
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And how is any of those things your saying related to ecm str or range?.
Not even going to bother.
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You just listed a few things that are all "out of combat" abilities that most cov ops and every other force recon can do and all of them have nothing to do with ECM range or str or help the ship in actual combat aside from a few % delay in locking time compared to the rook.
It's the element of surprise. You can count 4 hostiles in local but only see 3 ships and have no idea what the 4th one would be in. He could be in a cov ops or pilgrim/rapier/arazu and you wouldn't know until he uncloaked. By bringing a falcon closer in to get its jams off, the 'unknown' factor isn't as harsh.
I'd rather be getting damped, webbed, or neuted and getting plinked at by low-dps ships than be jammed by something that showed up 200km out disrupting my lock.
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Give it a rest ffs you sound like a whiney fool who got jammed and now has gone all emo about it.
Insults are the best way to prove your points. C/C?
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