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CCP, Lag, and the future of the server. Words from Hammerhead.

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Benilopax Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:06:00 - [1] I had the pleasure to meet Hammerhead again in Brighton on Tuesday and I asked him all about what CCP were doing about lag. Some of this stuff is probably already known but after the mnay lag threads and the dreaded Nano > Lag threads I thought it would be wise to state this again for all to see. So first, and I know this isn't about Lag but its worth mentioning. CCP has split into 3 departments: Outside Station (Spaceships and spacey things), Inside Station (The Market, Ambulation, refining etc etc), Bug fixing and Server (Obvious). So don't think that anyone who could fix bugs are being wasted on Ambulation it just isn't possible first because theose working on ambulation do not know how to bug fix and second each department concentrates on its own project. The Server. So Hammerhead told me that the supercomputer server is beng worked on but as you can guess its a huge task to undertake and also its a supercomputer for a computer game so it needs new exciting code and other alterations and the best he could give me is Soon TM. He also told me how the server will work in the future, basically when you log on you first get placed on a proxy server before being handed to the relavent blade server to your location in the cluster. But soon when you log on, if you are in a station you will log on to the station server, this will include both ambulation and in ship station activities. When you undock or log in in space you will be placed on the in space server, this would help systems like jita where market transactions and high traffic lag out the system. I found these ideas interesting but one thing that it did not answer is how large battles will be dealt with, I assume it is still an ongoing problem. Finally, thanks to Hammerhead for chatting to me about the server and the other things and also thanks to CCP for coming to the meet and giving some free stuff to us. Discuss!
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:23:00 - [2] That leads me to an interesing line of thought, and maybe I'm just wishing and hoping and making odd connections here, but: Could it be that, when ambulation is releases, players docked OR walking around won't be taking up space assets? I.E., some trader doing mass marketing, some new guy refitting his ship, another playing with maps or one wierdo using the LP browser ... could these people be using resources independent from those needed for fleet fights? Another interesting concept, which I hope to God happens but will probably **** off many a camper or campee ... will being docked in station remove a player from the 'local' channel and display? Man, that would be wonderful, and highly annoying to station campers and those who hide within stations. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:25:00 - [3] player controlled shops in jita will have a rent that's already scaring me :p ------ Tides of Silence
Benilopax Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:25:00 - [4] Interesting points, regarding fleet fights how many people are in stations in 0.0 while battles are raging? Well they do want to deal with local maybe this is how?
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:35:00 - [5] Well the specualtion from teh infiniband thread said that the space server can create an 'instant' node when needed so a battle raging on at one gate in system NV8D-M3 would effect the guys that are refittting ships at one of its pos's in space wont be lagged out by the fight until they warp to the gate. This still doesnt answer the question of how many ships are able to fight, but at least multipl skirmishes across a system is more viable than it would be before it. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Benilopax Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:54:00 - [6] Then together these two things could solve the problems, until more people come along and lag out the system.
Phillis Stein Caldari 20th Legion Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:57:00 - [7] Im not experienced in PCs but I always wondered why they dont revert all graphics to polygraphics once a system hits a certain number. Have the ships shown with an just an outline as they did in Elite. And before ppl say that that would ruin eve for them, no nice graphics etc, in a fleet fight we all zoom out anyway so a loss of graphics wont make any difference to us. As I said, Im no PC expert so amybe this wouldnt make any difference at all http://www.pixelopia.co.uk/files/signature.jpg
McDonALTs	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Phillis Stein Im not experienced in PCs but I always wondered why they dont revert all graphics to polygraphics once a system hits a certain number. Have the ships shown with an just an outline as they did in Elite. And before ppl say that that would ruin eve for them, no nice graphics etc, in a fleet fight we all zoom out anyway so a loss of graphics wont make any difference to us. As I said, Im no PC expert so amybe this wouldnt make any difference at all They already do. Main issue with fleet lag is 1. Client side Poor UI taking up massive resources. Brackets help reduce this 2. Slow servers
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:12:00 - [9] Originally by: McDonALTs Originally by: Phillis Stein Im not experienced in PCs but I always wondered why they dont revert all graphics to polygraphics once a system hits a certain number. Have the ships shown with an just an outline as they did in Elite. And before ppl say that that would ruin eve for them, no nice graphics etc, in a fleet fight we all zoom out anyway so a loss of graphics wont make any difference to us. As I said, Im no PC expert so amybe this wouldnt make any difference at all They already do. Main issue with fleet lag is 1. Client side Poor UI taking up massive resources. Brackets help reduce this 2. Slow servers Slow servers? You mean, slow ISP's? Or are you saying that the servers CCP has, the ones that are the 'latest tech not even on the market yet' servers are slow? "The greatest offense is no defense."
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Ruze Or are you saying that the servers CCP has, the ones that are the 'latest tech not even on the market yet' servers are slow? I will promise you, CCP hasn't got the latest technology on the market. They haven't even got a real supercomputer yet. Their blade racks(They use IBM blades with Operton cores) are connected with high-end gigabit ethernet, which is slow in terms of super-computing, if not laughable. The only "cool" thing they have, is their RAMDisk's. Those are some huge pieces of hardware with tons of RAM
Jita Jolene	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:16:00 - [11] I do not know what the 'brackets' mentioned are, curious to know .... But I do know the client makes at least twice as many calls for server data than are needed. Every market call, people and places, evemail and such should not automatically reload data from the server on a transaction, tab change or simply when the window opens. For me, I would say 2 of every 3 calls to refresh the data are pointless and not what am asking for. Give us 'refresh' or 'load' buttons on everything. Or the option to pick and choose which would auto-load and which would not. None for me please, thank you!
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:32:00 - [12] 1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local. 2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local.
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Benilopax The Server. So Hammerhead told me that the supercomputer server is beng worked on but as you can guess its a huge task to undertake and also its a supercomputer for a computer game so it needs new exciting code and other alterations and the best he could give me is Soon TM. Pics and performance stats related to your testing of this "supercomputer" please CCP (Hammerhead), or it doesn't exist. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Elektrea Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:37:00 - [14] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local. 2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local. your a tard ----------
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Phillis Stein Im not experienced in PCs but I always wondered why they dont revert all graphics to polygraphics once a system hits a certain number. Have the ships shown with an just an outline as they did in Elite. This is not the lag you are looking for. Waves hand
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local. 2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local. Truth. Players are going to push the very limits of whatever system you give them. I know of no other game where you see this many active combatants in the same area, with equal graphics or mechanics. Yet players complain. And if you give them more, they'll simply double their fleet sized and complain anew. Useless. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Elektrea Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local. 2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local. i'm a tard Also truth. "The greatest offense is no defense."

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Benilopax So first, and I know this isn't about Lag but its worth mentioning. CCP has split into 3 departments: Outside Station (Spaceships and spacey things), Inside Station (The Market, Ambulation, refining etc etc), Bug fixing and Server (Obvious). Let me clarify that one a tiny bit. It's not CCP that was split into 3 departments but rather the EVE Software Group that we've grouped into 3 themes. Within those themes the programmers then specialize further. And to answer another comment that they'll "believe it when they see the hardware" I'd have to say that's the most reasonable reaction to have when faced with these sorts of claims. I will say however that there are a lot of things we need to do on the software side before we reap the benefits of Infiniband and HPC. I'd love it if we could just plug the stuff in and see massive performance gains but that's not how it works. One final note is that I'm just a game designer and while I have a passing knowledge of the technical stuff mostly through osmosis or lies on Wikipedia I'm no expert by any means and most of it seems like black magic to me. I'm sure many of you out there have more technical questions about this stuff but I'm the wrong guy to ask. I'll see if I can get someone else to comment but no promises.

Chinger Caldari Cold Fury Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Ruze Another interesting concept, which I hope to God happens but will probably **** off many a camper or campee ... will being docked in station remove a player from the 'local' channel and display? Man, that would be wonderful, and highly annoying to station campers and those who hide within stations. This idea. Now.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:14:00 - [20] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2008 17:15:05 Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2008 17:14:26 Originally by: CCP Hammer I'll see if I can get someone else to comment but no promises. Moaaarrr hamsters!! Thats my comment. Hope everybody is happy with it, I worked on it for quite some time. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Benilopax Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:19:00 - [21] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Benilopax So first, and I know this isn't about Lag but its worth mentioning. CCP has split into 3 departments: Outside Station (Spaceships and spacey things), Inside Station (The Market, Ambulation, refining etc etc), Bug fixing and Server (Obvious). Let me clarify that one a tiny bit. It's not CCP that was split into 3 departments but rather the EVE Software Group that we've grouped into 3 themes. Within those themes the programmers then specialize further. And to answer another comment that they'll "believe it when they see the hardware" I'd have to say that's the most reasonable reaction to have when faced with these sorts of claims. I will say however that there are a lot of things we need to do on the software side before we reap the benefits of Infiniband and HPC. I'd love it if we could just plug the stuff in and see massive performance gains but that's not how it works. One final note is that I'm just a game designer and while I have a passing knowledge of the technical stuff mostly through osmosis or lies on Wikipedia I'm no expert by any means and most of it seems like black magic to me. I'm sure many of you out there have more technical questions about this stuff but I'm the wrong guy to ask. I'll see if I can get someone else to comment but no promises. Thanks Hammer.
Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:20:00 - [22] Originally by: Elektrea Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local. 2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local. your a tard No you are, this man speaks the truth.. Fleetbattles will just continue to grow in size as the population and alliances grow bigger. Calling people on the forums "tards" for pointing out that doesn't change anything except that people will think you're the tard.. Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Thrawnfl	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:21:00 - [23] you forgot to mention everyone's most hated bug/feature, The Desync which ccp says doesn't exist, the one thing that has caused the most deaths of super caps.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Thrawnfl you forgot to mention everyone's most hated bug/feature, The Desync which ccp says doesn't exist, the one thing that has caused the most deaths of super caps. Hate to break it to you, but they have acknowledged its existence and tried to fix it as best they can. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:33:00 - [25] Edited by: Doc Fury on 02/08/2008 17:34:43 Originally by: CCP Hammer And to answer another comment that they'll "believe it when they see the hardware" I'd have to say that's the most reasonable reaction to have when faced with these sorts of claims. I will say however that there are a lot of things we need to do on the software side before we reap the benefits of Infiniband and HPC. I'd love it if we could just plug the stuff in and see massive performance gains but that's not how it works. So... approximately how many lines of code have you guys "done on the software side" so far? In other words, how much EVE server code has already been rewritten for Infiniband? I'm guessing this stuff is all still up on whiteboards and exists only in the realm of "possibilities" so far. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Doc Fury So... approximately how many lines of code have you guys "done on the software side" so far? In other words, how much EVE server code has already been rewritten for Infiniband? I'm guessing this stuff is all still up on whiteboards and exists only in the realm of "possibilities" so far. Your guessing doesn't help us a bit, go whine somewhere else or fly over to iceland and show them how to code their software.. Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Theo Samaritan Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.02 18:11:00 - [27] Thanks for the update. It's nice to have these occasionally. ________________________ Lord WarATron: "To do the Abaddon Hadoken, you need to do the following manover with the joypad. ↓ .... ↓→ .... → + ●
bloomich Caldari In Siders	Posted - 2008.08.02 18:28:00 - [28] Edited by: bloomich on 02/08/2008 18:29:38 Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Benilopax So first, and I know this isn't about Lag but its worth mentioning. CCP has split into 3 departments: Outside Station (Spaceships and spacey things), Inside Station (The Market, Ambulation, refining etc etc), Bug fixing and Server (Obvious). Let me clarify that one a tiny bit. It's not CCP that was split into 3 departments but rather the EVE Software Group that we've grouped into 3 themes. Within those themes the programmers then specialize further. And to answer another comment that they'll "believe it when they see the hardware" I'd have to say that's the most reasonable reaction to have when faced with these sorts of claims. I will say however that there are a lot of things we need to do on the software side before we reap the benefits of Infiniband and HPC. I'd love it if we could just plug the stuff in and see massive performance gains but that's not how it works. One final note is that I'm just a game designer and while I have a passing knowledge of the technical stuff mostly through osmosis or lies on Wikipedia I'm no expert by any means and most of it seems like black magic to me. I'm sure many of you out there have more technical questions about this stuff but I'm the wrong guy to ask. I'll see if I can get someone else to comment but no promises. Thanks for the update. I have a question, its a non-technical one, and it would be great if you could give a rough, non-guarenteed answer (since its impossible to predict the future, and I do not want you to give a answer that has some forum warrior accept as biblical scripture). My question is this - how far, roughly, is CCP through to implementing a solution that will reduce or remove most instences of what we call lag? I do not expect a exact answer that "lag will be fixed 2011" or anything, just a rough indication of how far along the process you think you are "E.g expect something before ambluation etc etc".
Miss 10percent	Posted - 2008.08.02 18:36:00 - [29] Originally by: Neth'Rae Originally by: Elektrea Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local. 2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local. your a tard No you are, this man speaks the truth.. Fleetbattles will just continue to grow in size as the population and alliances grow bigger. Calling people on the forums "tards" for pointing out that doesn't change anything except that people will think you're the tard.. SO I guess you are alright with terribad lag while fighting in low-sec with 20 vs 20? The lag issues need to be addressed regardless of what limits players may push in deep 0.0.
Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.02 18:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Miss 10percent Originally by: Neth'Rae Originally by: Elektrea Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld 1. CCP fixs lag for 600-1000 man in local. 2. Players start complaining about lag with 1000-2000 in local. your a tard No you are, this man speaks the truth.. Fleetbattles will just continue to grow in size as the population and alliances grow bigger. Calling people on the forums "tards" for pointing out that doesn't change anything except that people will think you're the tard.. SO I guess you are alright with terribad lag while fighting in low-sec with 20 vs 20? The lag issues need to be addressed regardless of what limits players may push in deep 0.0. But lag will never be fixed if the size of blobs keep growing faster than the server technology and software.. Request signatures at EVE-GFX

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