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CSM Formal Meeting 9. Sunday 17rd August. 16:00 hours Eve Time

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Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 14:19:00 - [61] CSM Formal Meeting 9. Sunday 17th August. 16:00 hours Eve Time Agenda: ANNOUNCEMENTS: 1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Popular Issue - Putting this on the agenda again because by the time of this meeting we will have had a further two weeks of testing the SISI changes and plenty of feedback to give a CSM statement on the speed issue and impact on gameplay and pvp balance in Eve Online. 2. Changing Carriers Combat Roles - Bane (rearranged issue from august3) 3. Prime fiction for the 3rd bloodline (more needed) - Jade (rearranged issue from august3) 4. MOTD for Fleet/Gang window - Jade (rearranged issue from august3) 5. Local chat replacement/removal + here + here (removing local as an intel tool) - Jade/Tusko 6a. Proper Bounty Hunting for Eve - Dierdre/Arithron 6b. Proper Mercenary Profession support for Eve - Dierdre/Arithron 7. Improvements for Rigs - Hardin/Omber 8. Mission Improvements - Ank 9. Forum change issues - Lavista (this topic technically breaks the 7 day discussion rule but I'm inclined to make an exception due to the importance of the issue) 10. UI Fixes (link to follow) - Inaana 11. Specific Alternative to speed changes MWD disables weapons -Jade 12. Slash Commands - Dierdra 13. Small Anchorable Structures - Ank 14. Ship Modifications - Lavista 15. Radical Change to 0.0 sovereignty (sov "points" from activity) -Jade 16. Remote destruction of Jump Clones - Ank 17. Using ISK towards real world charities -Jade 19. Drone Disconnects and Quirky Behaviour + here -Ank 20. Gang/Fleet bonuses for single race fleets -Jade 21. Specific adjustments to 0.0 sovereignty - Jade AOB (Any other business) (additions can be submitted prior 18:00 hours Friday 15th August) 1. tba 2. tba All CSM delegates and Alts invited. ++ This is the last date for Issues to be voted onto the second formal CSM/CCP meeting. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:04:00 - [62] Originally by: LaVista Vista What's the point in the deadline? Nobody seems to be keeping it. Please, at least publically show some respect towards the CSM.
Kixkahn	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:14:00 - [63] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: LaVista Vista What's the point in the deadline? Nobody seems to be keeping it. Please, at least publically show some respect towards the CSM. He seems to have a legitimate point.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:16:00 - [64] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: LaVista Vista What's the point in the deadline? Nobody seems to be keeping it. Please, at least publically show some respect towards the CSM. Dude, I'm just asking a valid question. Why would I have to stress out during the week, in order to write up these documents, when I could write then up during saturday?
Drolus	Posted - 2008.08.16 23:35:00 - [65] hahahahaha MOTD's, slash commands, Prime Fiction. WTF? way to go for the "big picture", guys. hahahahaha
Ankhesentapemkah	Posted - 2008.08.17 21:23:00 - [66] looks through bloodstained eyes Meeting over, after 5 hours and 15 minutes.... now I need umm BRAINS! HISS! --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.17 21:26:00 - [67] CSM Formal Meeting 9. Sunday 17th August. 16:00 hours Eve Time Agenda: ANNOUNCEMENTS: 1. The "nano-nerf" implications as per dev blog - Deferred to next session because of SISI rollback 2. Changing Carriers Combat Roles - Bane - Voted down 3/6 3. Prime fiction for the 3rd bloodline (more needed) - Jade - escalated 4. MOTD for Fleet/Gang window - Jade - escalated 5. Local chat replacement/removal + here + here (removing local as an intel tool) - Jade/Tusko - withdrawn prior to vote since we didn't have Tusko's docs. 6a. Proper Bounty Hunting for Eve - Dierdre/Arithron - escalated 6b. Proper Mercenary Profession support for Eve - Dierdre/Arithron - escalated 7. Improvements for Rigs - Hardin/Omber - escalated 8. Mission Improvements - Ank - escalated with edits 9. Forum change issues - Lavista (this topic technically breaks the 7 day discussion rule but I'm inclined to make an exception due to the importance of the issue) - escalated 5/4 10. UI Fixes (link to follow) - Inaana (4 issues all escalated) 11. Specific Alternative to speed changes MWD disables weapons - voted down 2/7 (jade and ank voted aye) 12. Slash Commands - Dierdra - escalated 13. Small Anchorable Structures - Ank - escalated with edits 14. Ship Modifications - Lavista - deferred to AOB 15. Radical Change to 0.0 sovereignty (sov "points" from activity) -Jade voted down 1/8 16. Remote destruction of Jump Clones - Ank - escalated 17. Using ISK towards real world charities -Jade voted down 3/6 19. Drone Disconnects and Quirky Behaviour + here -Ank Bug fix escalated / enduring drones denied. 20. Gang/Fleet bonuses for single race fleets -Jade - voted down 1/7 21. More crossfactional ships -Ank - escalated 22. Specific adjustments to 0.0 sovereignty - Jade (deferred lack of time) Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Drolus	Posted - 2008.08.17 22:34:00 - [68] are the full minutes posted somewhere?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:04:00 - [69] Originally by: Drolus are the full minutes posted somewhere? Very last link in Jade's post above yours. Sadly, there are no minutes for most meetings, so chatlogs are what we get. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Vision Threads	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:47:00 - [70] lol Bane got voted down again, 3rd strike and out. Who can be more ineffective than that guy? Jade has better chance off changing 0.0 than he has of changing cap ships
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.18 02:18:00 - [71] I'm rather amazed by that vote on the forum changes. For one, you can submit your 2nd and 3rd batches of issues at any point you desire. It's not a matter of missing the deadline, because there is no deadline, you just submit your list and get responses back in 2 weeks. Of course, that changes if CCP is screwing around with the founding document somehow, but from what I know, "missing the deadline" is a bogus concern. Furthermore, even if you are pressed for time, just resolve to have a five-minute meeting in two days' time for this one issue. It'd pass easily, without bitterness and the setting of a truly awful precedent, and I can't imagine you're going to have the stuff ready for formal submission before then anyways. Also, in the amount of time you spent debating whether Arithron could talk after the vote, he could have typed up his response three times over. Word of advice to Ari and all the other alternates who may find yourselves in this position - just say your piece, and the debate over whether you're allowed to or not will end far faster. Continuing to read... ------------------ Fix the forums!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.18 04:28:00 - [72] Okay, finished reading. I only have one more question. That bit at the end, where you guys knocked off issues in rapid succession by just voting on them, why don't you do that more often? Discuss before, vote during. I acknowledge that the CCP forums are dreck, and that you can't get a proper list of members for access control purposes to make such a forum work on this site(at least not until someone on CCP's side swallows their pride and downloads some proper forum software instead of continuing to use the present abortion), but isn't this why you registered a domain like www.eve-csm.com? Put up a discussion board, make one section read-only for non-members, and debate everything there. Or if that doesn't work for you - which, given the history of updates on that site, it might not - just figure out what's on the agenda in advance and talk about it in its own thread. Of course, that'd mean longer debate, but it'd also mean better debate, and shorter meetings. Given that you seem to be unable to finish meetings properly due to other commitments/odd hours, keeping the hours as flexible as possible, by moving the bulk of the debate to a week-long period instead of the meeting itself, should allow more people to participate(including the poor Aussie, though I see he's been attending more often lately). For that matter, I don't know why you even have "meetings". Just vote on the forums. If you use the off-site forums it's even easy, since any forum software worth its salt(cough, cough) has polling options. But even without those, just posting "I vote aye" should do the trick. ------------------ Fix the forums!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.18 05:31:00 - [73] I'm now officially a noob. "Ruin and hit" = Hit and run. Jesus what lack of sleep can do to you
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.18 07:50:00 - [74] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto (including the poor Aussie, though I see he's been attending more often lately). oi, i have a name you know :) The reason I have been there more recently is due to the meeting start time being moved to 2am Monday morning my time rather than the 4am it used to be. /rant on Anyway, pretty much what you asked for has been suggested a few times already by multiple people involved in the CSM. I just find it ridiculous that the CSM can't even post it's meeting minutes to a CCP hosted site let alone have a sub-forum hat can have the discussions needed for the issues that do come up. Unfortunately it relies on the goodwill of Serenity who hosts the mailing list and Jade who is posting the minutes to his own corp forum. If neither of them are in the next CSM, it's going to be fun to see what happens to the information flow. This time I will point fingers - CCP your lack of support tools for the CSM is a major problem and needs addressing immediately. You demand a lot from the CSM in both time and effort, it would be nice to see the support from your end in basic functionality of information flow and dissemination. 1. a CCP hosted mailing list 2. a CCP hosted CSM forum for delegates to discuss issues 3. a CCP hosted site for posting of meeting minutes/agendas/documents all are needed before this situation turns into a complete farce when people start deciding they no longer want to donate their own personal servers to the cause. /rant end ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog
Hardin	Posted - 2008.08.18 08:27:00 - [75] Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto (including the poor Aussie, though I see he's been attending more often lately). oi, i have a name you know :) The reason I have been there more recently is due to the meeting start time being moved to 2am Monday morning my time rather than the 4am it used to be. /rant on Anyway, pretty much what you asked for has been suggested a few times already by multiple people involved in the CSM. I just find it ridiculous that the CSM can't even post it's meeting minutes to a CCP hosted site let alone have a sub-forum hat can have the discussions needed for the issues that do come up. Unfortunately it relies on the goodwill of Serenity who hosts the mailing list and Jade who is posting the minutes to his own corp forum. If neither of them are in the next CSM, it's going to be fun to see what happens to the information flow. This time I will point fingers - CCP your lack of support tools for the CSM is a major problem and needs addressing immediately. You demand a lot from the CSM in both time and effort, it would be nice to see the support from your end in basic functionality of information flow and dissemination. 1. a CCP hosted mailing list 2. a CCP hosted CSM forum for delegates to discuss issues 3. a CCP hosted site for posting of meeting minutes/agendas/documents all are needed before this situation turns into a complete farce when people start deciding they no longer want to donate their own personal servers to the cause. /rant end Signed... ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Inanna Zuni	Posted - 2008.08.18 16:36:00 - [76] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto For one, you can submit your 2nd and 3rd batches of issues at any point you desire. It's not a matter of missing the deadline, because there is no deadline, you just submit your list and get responses back in 2 weeks. ... "missing the deadline" is a bogus concern. 'fraid not. CCP asked us to submit batch #2 around now and so that is what we were doing. Batch #3 will go in in early October so that we can have the online discussion with them before we end our terms. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Furthermore, even if you are pressed for time, just resolve to have a five-minute meeting in two days' time for this one issue With the first batch we did indeed have a mid-week 'finalising' meeting but the Chair didn't schedule one this time (as it turned out we wasted so much time with 'some people' deciding to take ages restating the issue that we went on for many-too-many hours). IZ My principles
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:13:00 - [77] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto For one, you can submit your 2nd and 3rd batches of issues at any point you desire. It's not a matter of missing the deadline, because there is no deadline, you just submit your list and get responses back in 2 weeks. ... "missing the deadline" is a bogus concern. 'fraid not. CCP asked us to submit batch #2 around now and so that is what we were doing. Batch #3 will go in in early October so that we can have the online discussion with them before we end our terms. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Furthermore, even if you are pressed for time, just resolve to have a five-minute meeting in two days' time for this one issue With the first batch we did indeed have a mid-week 'finalising' meeting but the Chair didn't schedule one this time (as it turned out we wasted so much time with 'some people' deciding to take ages restating the issue that we went on for many-too-many hours). IZ "Around now" doesn't have 2 days of leeway? Besides, from the discussions, it looks like it'll take you 2 days to get the final submission documents ready anyways. And if the Chair didn't schedule a meeting, then someone who knows how to work committee structures should have had a brief chat with the Chair to explain the merits of not violating one of your more fundamental rules unnecessarily. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Inanna Zuni (as it turned out we wasted so much time with 'some people' deciding to take ages restating the issue that we went on for many-too-many hours). [ 2008.08.17 20:15:41 ] Jade Constantine > so its 15. Radical Change to 0.0 sovereignty (sov "points" from activity) -Jade [ 2008.08.17 20:16:09 ] Darius JOHNSON > ! [ 2008.08.17 20:16:14 ] Jade Constantine > This is a working proposal which is basically vision stuff rather than specifics - and the principle is that sovereignty changes from being a fixed thing that you get from simply putting towers up [ 2008.08.17 20:16:17 ] Hardin > ! [ 2008.08.17 20:16:32 ] Jade Constantine > into become a value that is increased by actually "doing things" in your claimed space [ 2008.08.17 20:16:46 ] Bane Glorious > ! [ 2008.08.17 20:16:50 ] Jade Constantine > ie pvp'ing, ratting, mining, even using gates and such .... some strutures will have an effect on it [ 2008.08.17 20:16:58 ] Jade Constantine > but the basic effect should be [ 2008.08.17 20:17:10 ] Jade Constantine > if you are active in your space you get to build sov points [ 2008.08.17 20:17:26 ] Jade Constantine > that allow the bigger strategic modules - like bridges and jammers and cap yards etc etc [ 2008.08.17 20:17:43 ] Jade Constantine > while if you are not active in your space - sov will drip away and return to a neutral level [ 2008.08.17 20:17:47 ] Inanna Zuni > !! Jade - we've read it; a one -post summary should suffice this late in the day - 20.15:41 -> 20:17:47 ! Thats a 2min introduction to an issue out of a 5 hour meeting. Don't you think you might be exaggerating a little? Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:14:00 - [79] Originally by: Jade Constantine - 20.15:41 -> 20:17:47 ! Thats a 2min introduction to an issue out of a 5 hour meeting. Don't you think you might be exaggerating a little? Time flies when you're having fun. Conversely, when you're bored and tired, things seem to take 10x as long as they actually do. Not exaggeration, merely misperception. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Kalahari Wayrest Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:34:00 - [80] I read over this and while the CSM got a lot done, the issue overall is one of time. I don't think a meeting should be going on that long - not just for the comfort of CSM members, but it got confusing with people leaving (though understandably) and who was voting, and a lot of the votes seemed rushed through, particularly when peoples votes would hinge on a particular point. So I'm starting to see the need for a CSM-only forum. (and probably alternates too, given if they're going to be filling in and actually voting, they should probably have a chance to discuss things before hand as well) By CSM-only, I don't mean privacy - I think transparency is important in discussions - but one in which only CSM members post to discuss issues amongst themselves (visitors to the board are read-only). Yes, we already have a discussion forum for the CSM here, but that's between players and CSM, not for the CSM to discuss amongst themselves. (the problem being if they tried to discuss things amongst themselves here, players would jump in and then it wouldn't be discussing amongst themselves anymore) And yes, they can do that in the meetings, but then they end up being 5 hours long... Rather than explanations and arguments in the meeting, that could have all been done and dusted on a forum. The advantage to a forum over a discussion meeting, is that anyone can swing by at their own convenience and in their own time zone - also that they can explore issues more fully. The disadvantages would be issues being explored a bit too much and egos/sniping going on (which seems to happen in all forums) so it would have to be professional and, if not CCP moderated/hosted then self moderated/hosted if possible. The link to a CSM only forum if not CCP hosted/moderated could be posted as a sticky on Jita Speakers Corner, so everyone could read what the CSM's arguments /explanations to each other are. Also there's the issues of the minutes/chatlog making sense, so when an issue is brought up and briefly described just so CSM members remember what it is, a link could be put in either at the time or afterwards to the thread on the CSM forum so people can read what the arguments between CSM members for that issue was. (I don't think a link to the current eve-o CSM forums is necessary, as players would have already had an opportunity to read all that, as well as the opportunity to post and make their own arguments/own votes there) So I wouldn't see it as 'adding an extra layer' of confusing bureaucracy, more like removing any explanation /argument from the meetings and having those elsewhere. Nor is it replacing the discussion between CSM and players, just that it's necessary to have discussion between CSM members too. So I'd see the meetings going as: 3. Skills and balancing issues: for example the [ ] being changed to the [ ]. [Thread link] vote yay or nay yay nay nay yay yay etc then onto 4. Basically, less debating. There'd still be æ!Æ if people had problems - such as errors, but most of what they didn't understand or didn't agree with to the specific issue would have already been debated, and they'd then know what their vote is without all the "I'll vote this, if you make this clear..." Also there seem to be confusion on the documents - could those have been read before hand (posted on a CSM only discussion forum!) or are they only published at the meetings? If the latter is true, it might save confusion to put a motd on IRC saying: "For meeting 9 you should all have docs (filename) (filename) (filename)to hand for reference" - then anyone who doesn't have those, knows from the outset that they don't, but should. Apologies if I've misunderstood/misrepresented the process, I only follow things vaguely and it's what the meeting suggested to me. tl;dr - CSM only-forum seems like a good idea, and IRC motd with the filenames for documents might be useful in meetings.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.04 20:10:00 - [81] When is the next meeting with CCP? I was under the impression that it was late August, but don't see anything about it.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.09.05 03:53:00 - [82] Originally by: Yorda When is the next meeting with CCP? I was under the impression that it was late August, but don't see anything about it. Issues were submitted on the 26th of August. So it will take at least till next week. But I don't think the date has been announced yet.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.05 05:16:00 - [83] Originally by: Yorda When is the next meeting with CCP? I was under the impression that it was late August, but don't see anything about it. More intriguingly, when is the next CSM meeting? The 17th of August was almost three weeks ago. ------------------ Fix the forums!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.09.05 09:35:00 - [84] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Yorda When is the next meeting with CCP? I was under the impression that it was late August, but don't see anything about it. More intriguingly, when is the next CSM meeting? The 17th of August was almost three weeks ago. I believe we are in a waiting position at present for when CCP gets back to us, at which point we will start the meetings again.
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Crystal Ship	Posted - 2008.09.05 12:29:00 - [85] Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 05/09/2008 12:30:02 Surely it would make more sense to be holding the meetings regardless of waiting for CCP to get back to you for their second Meeting? That way, you guys can be processing the Issues that will make it to the 3rd meeting. and so avoiding the problem with the last two meetings where issues were deferred as you were trying to address too many issues in too short a space of time. For example, instead of you having a marathon 6 hour meeting every three weeks to discuss up to 30 issues of which 6 or 7 get deferred to the start of the next meeting (thus making it more likely that a new issue will be deferred during that meeting), why not have 3 shorter, 2 hour meetings discussing 10 issues each on a weekly basis? At least, that way people aren't getting frustrated by Time Concerns as much. And it helps to keep the CSM in the Public Eye. Unfortunately, in the last few weeks it's seemed like the CSM has dropped off the face of the Earth (I think the only CSM I've seen around the boards doing CSM business has been yourself, LaVista, though will confirm that through Eve-search.com) I don't doubt that there has been plenty going on behind the scenes, however, we're just not seeing that. Edit: Here's the Posting Stats for each of the CSM members Jade Constantine - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 29th August) Hardin - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 19th August) LaVista Vista - Last Posted 5th September (Last AH/Jita Post 5th September) Darius Johnson - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 13th August) Bane Glorious - Last Posted 18th August (Last AH/Jita Post 11th August) Dierdra Vaal - Last Posted 21st August (Last AH/Jita Post 21st August) Serenity Steele - Last Posted 3rd September (Last AH/Jita Post 2nd September) Ankhesentapenkah - Last Posted 31st August (Last AH/Jita Post 28th August) Heh, for some of them I thought it had been longer, guess I just shot myself in the foot with this one...
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.05 15:03:00 - [86] Originally by: LaVista Vista I believe we are in a waiting position at present for when CCP gets back to us, at which point we will start the meetings again. Then limit your agenda items to ones not relevant to the questions you asked of CCP. Otherwise your backlog will be truly frightening. Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Here's the Posting Stats for each of the CSM members Jade Constantine - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 29th August) Hardin - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 19th August) LaVista Vista - Last Posted 5th September (Last AH/Jita Post 5th September) Darius Johnson - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 13th August) Bane Glorious - Last Posted 18th August (Last AH/Jita Post 11th August) Dierdra Vaal - Last Posted 21st August (Last AH/Jita Post 21st August) Serenity Steele - Last Posted 3rd September (Last AH/Jita Post 2nd September) Ankhesentapenkah - Last Posted 31st August (Last AH/Jita Post 28th August) Heh, for some of them I thought it had been longer, guess I just shot myself in the foot with this one... That's still pretty bad - only two have posted on CSM forums in the last week, and it's been over two weeks for four of them. ------------------ Fix the forums!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.09.05 18:05:00 - [87] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Here's the Posting Stats for each of the CSM members Jade Constantine - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 29th August) Hardin - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 19th August) LaVista Vista - Last Posted 5th September (Last AH/Jita Post 5th September) Darius Johnson - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 13th August) Bane Glorious - Last Posted 18th August (Last AH/Jita Post 11th August) Dierdra Vaal - Last Posted 21st August (Last AH/Jita Post 21st August) Serenity Steele - Last Posted 3rd September (Last AH/Jita Post 2nd September) Ankhesentapenkah - Last Posted 31st August (Last AH/Jita Post 28th August) Heh, for some of them I thought it had been longer, guess I just shot myself in the foot with this one... That's still pretty bad - only two have posted on CSM forums in the last week, and it's been over two weeks for four of them. I agree. Pretty scary statistics I think.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.05 21:17:00 - [88] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 05/09/2008 21:23:19 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Here's the Posting Stats for each of the CSM members Jade Constantine - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 29th August) Hardin - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 19th August) LaVista Vista - Last Posted 5th September (Last AH/Jita Post 5th September) Darius Johnson - Last Posted 4th September (Last AH/Jita Post 13th August) Bane Glorious - Last Posted 18th August (Last AH/Jita Post 11th August) Dierdra Vaal - Last Posted 21st August (Last AH/Jita Post 21st August) Serenity Steele - Last Posted 3rd September (Last AH/Jita Post 2nd September) Ankhesentapenkah - Last Posted 31st August (Last AH/Jita Post 28th August) Heh, for some of them I thought it had been longer, guess I just shot myself in the foot with this one... That's still pretty bad - only two have posted on CSM forums in the last week, and it's been over two weeks for four of them. I agree. Pretty scary statistics I think. Not being funny but before you wring your hands at how "terrible" your fellow delegates are at communicating you might consider replying to the message I sent to the csm mailing list ten days ago asking the CSM delegates for their opinion of when and what the next meeting should be and involve LaVista. Please don't express public moral outrage when you aren't able to respond to messages yourself. As for the statistics - well, I've not really seen a topic I'm particularly impressed by/with general popular support/and or something I've got specialist gameplay knowledge of in the last couple of weeks. Guess everyone is busy at the moment players included. I'm guessing the other CSM's must feel similarly. In any case I've asked the other delegates to post their opinions on what the next meeting should involve and when it should be and when I've got answers from them all I'll make a decision. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:52:00 - [89] Originally by: Jade Constantine you might consider replying to the message I sent to the csm mailing list ten days ago asking the CSM delegates for their opinion of when and what the next meeting should be and involve LaVista. Please don't express public moral outrage when you aren't able to respond to messages yourself. Oh come on Andrew. That's just stupid. Do I really have to repeat what Ankh said when she hit the nail right on it's head? And where did you read that my fellow delegates are terrible? You are obviously not reading my message. I used "scary", which is an informal way of expressing that one is surprised.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Jade Constantine Not being funny but before you wring your hands at how "terrible" your fellow delegates are at communicating you might consider replying to the message I sent to the csm mailing list ten days ago asking the CSM delegates for their opinion of when and what the next meeting should be and involve LaVista. Please don't express public moral outrage when you aren't able to respond to messages yourself. As for the statistics - well, I've not personally seen a topic I'm particularly impressed by/with general popular support/and or something I've got specialist gameplay knowledge of in the last couple of weeks - certainly not one for which I've got a strong desire to promote or the confidence that it could be voted through. Guess everyone is busy at the moment players included. I'm guessing the other CSM's must feel similarly. (For the record - the only issue any delegate has requested on record for next available meeting was the cribba mining dreadnaught thing that got resolved by the gms the same day.) In any case I've asked the other delegates to post their opinions on what the next meeting should involve and when it should be and when I've got answers from them all I'll make a decision. Gotta love the inside baseball. As for the meeting, I agree that there's been rather a paucity of interesting topics recently, but I was under the impression that meetings were regularly scheduled. Anyone staring at a big blank agenda can easily enough find some less-interesting topics still worthy of advancement, or bring some forward on the Assembly Hall and see what players have to say, or dredge for old topics that never got brought up for one reason or another. But with no meeting even on the horizon, and lame-duck syndrome starting to show up(for those not running next time, at least), it's not a surprise that laziness is setting in, and people have stopped really caring. It is, however, immensely unfortunate - not only does it mean that less is being done, but it casts a bit of a shadow upon the idea of player representation in MMOs generally. I don't know that any other game has ever done something like a CSM, and I'd hate to see it fail for procedural reasons or because those involved have given up on something or other. I'm not trying to attribute blame to anybody here - I'm not on the inside, I don't know if it's everybody's fault or nobody's. I'm just saying, the system seems not to have been working especially well for the last week or two. It's not time to throw up our hands in defeat, of course, but I would like to see the resumption of regularly scheduled meetings at the very least. ------------------ Fix the forums!

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