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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.04 20:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: El Yatta on 04/08/2008 20:54:39 Rigs are great. The concept of permanent ôship implantsö to specialise your vessel, as well as introducing a new market in salvage and doing away with the daft old ôloot canö system, is very good.
But rigs have had their problems: where they stacked up with functions that were already modified by skills, modules, gang bonuses and boosters, they had a tendency to go too far, and doubly so where the stat in question is not stacking penalised. For example, trimarks (armor hp), core defence field purgers (shield HP) and, inevitably, polycarbons (mass). The ôpassive tankingö and ônanoö crazes were directly related to the introduction of rigs. (Note for the hard of thinking: this thread isn't about nano! Not pro, not anti, not related.)
Another problem is that people tend to gravitate towards the same rigs. CCCs, polycarbons, trimarks, core purgers, these probably account for the vast majority of rigs fit today. That's not specialisation, people, that's more identikit/ôcookie-cutterö ship fitting, which isn't true to the original concept, or fun.
By contrast, loads of rigs go unused û weep for the Hyperspatial Velocity Optimiser (20% warp speed), the Powergrid subroutine maximiser (I think this reduces RCU cpu need, super helpful...), the Targeting systems Stabiliser (- decloaking sensor recalibration time), and the Engine thermal shielding (+MWD/ab cycle Time). Oh, and every single drone rig. This is doubly sad, because these do things that no module, gang bonus, booster, and either 1 or 0 skills do, and thus are cool and different.
How do we solve this? Its as easy as 1,2,3,4,5. (I know this is two harder than 1-2-3 and also doesn't rhyme. Sorry)
1) Balance rigs with similar function so that specialised is better than generalised.
So what is a good rig? And what is a bad rig? A bad rig surely is anything that stacks up too much of a ômainö statistic such that its infinitely more useful than most other rigs. A good rig is one that specialises your ship into a niche, making it win versus the same ship with no rigs, or even the same ship with ôbad rigsö, in that same situation.
Example: Capacitor
Bad Rigs: CCC (raw cap recharge) SMC (cap amount)
Good Rigs: Remote Repair Augmentor (- remote armor rep cap use) Dynamic Fuel Valve (- MWD/ab cap use) Warp Core Optimiser (- warping cap need) Signal Disruption Amplifier (- ECM/burst cap need) Egress Port Maximiser (- neutraliser and energy transfer cap need) Energy/Hybrid Discharge Elutriation (-hybrid/laser cap need) Core Defence Capacitor safeguard (- shield booster cap need)
Why would I fit the vast majority of the second list, when I could fit a CCC and have the best cap for ALL purposes? That's not specialisation, folks. Incidentally, I do use one of those rigs, the amazing Remote Repair augmentor. This is because it gives enough of a bonus on a 2-3xRR bs that it by far eclipses the use of a CCC in comparison. That is cool, specialised and useful.
Of course, I'm not saying we should delete CCC/SMC û after all, some ships need cap for lots of things, and there would be unholy whining if they were removed. But they should be among the worst choices for cap, because they're the most generalised, the opposite of the ôaimö of rigs. Instead, boost the bonus on all the underused rigs above (possibly with the exception of RR aug and egress port maximiser, as they do get used). The less ôusefulö a statistic, and thus underused the rig, the more it should get. There's no reason why all rigs should be 15-20%. For example, the Warp Core optimiser û you can never have so little cap you can't warp, just not very far. Why not have the WCO remove, i.e. -100% bonus, the warp cap need. Thus its not massively useful in all PVP, but on a specialised ship (e.g. A passive drake that only needs cap to warp, or a bomber that has crap warp cap need), adds a unique ability. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.04 20:54:00 -
[2]
Edited by: El Yatta on 04/08/2008 20:56:55
A great example in the original design of this is CPU. There is NO +cpu rig, but there are several that reduce CPU need for certain modules. If only they didn't suck, then they'd actually be quite used. Boost them.
Overall, number 1 would brings rigs closer towards their ôoriginalö design spec, and promote many of the rarer rigs. It also goes a step towards preventing rigs making ship setups unbalanced û because the rigs that have caused the problems are the ôgeneralö ones, trimarks, polys, CCCs.
2): Boost the underused rigs that do cool and unusual functions!
Several rigs do things that is almost nothing to do with the others, but is cool nonetheless. They also tend to be totally useless. I again bring up the Hyperspatial Velocity optimiser and the Targeting Systems Stabiliser. These would be awesome if only anyone who wasn't mad ever fit one on a combat setup, ever.
The HVO is useless because the [i]vast majority of all but the longest warps is accelerating up and down from max warp speed, and that is not a rate, but a flat time, the same on all ships. Its boring, and makes increasing your top warp speed a little useless. I suggest that the HVO be either +80-150% warp speed, OR that it gives +40% to warp speed AND acceleration time. Maybe that'd be worth it on any ship you intend to travel in, or to promote guerilla warfare now that polys arent > all.
The TSS gives a weeny -1s recalibration on a BS with an improved cloak, a pathetic -0.5s on your recalibration in a Recon or covops, and of course, a massive zero seconds on black ops and bombers, (you know, the cloaking ships that are meant to actually decloak and combat stuff). If it was either -80-90% recalibration, OR it affected both recal AND the cloak's scan res penalty (say -40% to both) then it would be very useful, but only situationally, in a niche, and couldn't really be overpowered.
Number 2 is overall obvious: make the crap rigs cool. There's no reason to be 15-25% on all ôjust becauseö. That's not balance.
3) Drone rigs penalty has to change
While û base CPU sounds nice for RP (after all, drones are robots and you could bog down your computer with programs controlling them) its actually making them utterly unused, because the bonuses are all minor, balanced, nice, but overall just not worth breaking very nice fits, especially on CPU tight boats like the Ishtar or Ishkur. Even the mighty dominix, with excellent CPU, rarely fits anything other than maybe a Sentry Damage augmentor on those moderately rare sentry II fits.
Seeing as there is no +ALL drone damage rig (and quite rightly so, too generalist), there's no reason to have such a tough penalty. I suggest either û hull HP (would affect Gallente, but not drastically) or û agility 4) Add new rigs that follow the rules we've already established: Niche, Specialised, Don't Stack Up with Existing Stuff to Huge Modifiers, and are Cool and Unusual in Function[/b]
An example of a good rig here is the Projectile Ambit Extension û it was the first time we could modify falloff on a ship's guns. Lets do more of that!
Here is a list of in-game statistics that could, without causing huge balance issues, be made into rigs. None of them have an associated module or non-ship skill bonus.
Drone Capacity (no longer a dps increase now we have Bandwidth) Turret/Launcher Ammunition Capacity Cloak Velocity Modifier Turret Signature Resolution Mining Laser Range Mining Laser Cap Use Bomb Launcher Cycle Time Bomb HP Tractor Beam Range/speed Max Locked Targets EW module Falloff Oh, and for the love of god add a rig that Increases Damp/TD optimal. Why not specialise your curse to TD snipers?
_______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.04 20:54:00 -
[3]
Edited by: El Yatta on 04/08/2008 20:56:08 Here is a list of similar statistics, which would also be great fun to rig. However these would need careful balance attention, as they modify more interesting and powerful stats. Some of them already have skills and modules associated, but are either under-used or cannot be stacked to extremes.
Sensor Strength Energy Vampire/neutraliser range Energy vampire ôtransfer levelö - increase the point at which your nos starts to steal cap, e.g. My cap + 20%. Ship Signature Radius Cap Injector Capacity Jump Drive Fuel Use Jump Drive Range. Smartbomb Cap Use Smartbomb Range Thermodynamics (ship-wide heatsink) Scan probe strength Scan probe accuracy Scan probe launcher CPU need Gang mod cap need
I especially like the idea that capital pilots could be tempted to go for something OTHER than CCC. Oh, and here is a list of things that are either downright mental or would require some sort of code change to mess with, but would be damn cool rigs all the same:
Ability to Passive Target while cloaked + Drone Scoop Range Jump Harmonics +2 (you can go through a blackops portal but only if your gang rigs their ships for it) Reduced T2 ammo penalty (lolbalancefuntime) Warp core strength Heat-damaged modules slowly auto-repair Slow auto-regen armor Slow auto-regen hull Seige/triage fuel need Seige/triage time reduction
5) Dont' forget the little stuff! Penalties, skills, calibration and salvage.
Firstly, be careful of penalties being too uniform. Armor HP on speedy ships that were often shield-extender wasn't a tough penalty, Laser Grid use definitely is. Maybe one should be ôbiggerö than the other?
Secondly, why does Jury Rigging do nothing. While the most obvious choice is + calibration, that does have the risk of opening up some powerful setups that weren't obvious. It should do something though.
Penultimately; Calibration: several rigs were clearly given calibration clearly designed to balance their use. Obviously people are scared of high-damage setups being overpowered (rigs came out not a million years after the age of the 8-heatsink gankageddon), so that could explain why the actually moderately-useless turret damage rigs are 300 Calibration. This could be worth looking at û after all, nobody WOULD use 3 damage rigs very often because they stack and do less than half the job that heatsink/gyrostab/magstab.
Similarly, there's example of this going to extremes û where the T1 rigs are BETTER than the T2 because you can fit two t1, and only one t2. Gravity Capacitor upgrades, for example. Just make the T2 double the t1 bonus, or lower the calibration on both.
And lastly (out of breath now), keep an eye on salvage prices, please, CCP, if you did these changes. They can fluctuate a lot, and one component being vastly expensive beyond the others is a sure sign something ain't right. Lets not have another alloyed trit bar/polycarbon situation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: TL:DR? A: You're a cretin. But go on then:
1)Make specialised rigs better than generalised, e.g. MWD cap use > CCC. 2)Big boosts for cool, underused rigs that do unusual stuff 3)Drone rigs need a better penalty, -CPU makes them unused. 4)New rigs, cool functions, NOT multiply-stacking general stats. 5)Minor balancing to penalties, calibration and Jury Rigging should do something. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Herring
Alcatraz Inc. Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:02:00 -
[4]
Good ideas. I'd love to see these implemented....too many rig bpo's/rig part just sit idly in my hangars because no one uses them...
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:31:00 -
[5]
A great, well-considered suggestion that would dramatically improve rigs past the old standbys of the CCC, SMC, ACR, Trimark, Purger, Optimization, and Polycarbon, and a few others for specialists. I don't think all the proposals you listed should be made into rigs, but a lot of them are really good ideas. Definitely worth the thumb. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
G Dabak
Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.05 05:56:00 -
[6]
Yeah, it's been almost 2 years now so some kind of "rigs 2.0" patch is long overdue. It's boring only ever fitting like 4 different rigs most of the time. To reiterate the OP, there are a lot that could be good but their bonus is just too marginal or there's another that's stupid not to fit instead. Plus it would be fun to have new rigs for things like heat, jump drives, nos ratio, sig radius, etc.
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Captain Narmio
Baptism oF Fire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.08.05 06:01:00 -
[7]
I support a general revisiting of rigs by the developers with an eye towards both useless and trumps-everything-else rigs. Not necessarily the specifics in the OP, but the concept is good.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.05 19:12:00 -
[8]
Thanks for the support guys. Yes, it is mainly the idea I am plugging, not specifically any specific changes. I have not put many raw numbers/% in, and where they are, only for example, e.g. to show that you could make a warp speed rig give a ridiculously large % and it would still be balanced and might persuade someone to use one.
Similarly, with the list of proposed new rigs, I split them into "no balance changes", "might do balance changes" and "lol would unbalance all sorts of things" for that reason - I dont think they ALL should be made into new rigs. But I feel all of column A and most of column B at least would be super amazing hotness. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.05 19:17:00 -
[9]
Awesome. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Kyle Cataclysm
Blue.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 22:50:00 -
[10]
bump
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Mira O'karr
Templars of Space
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Posted - 2008.08.05 22:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tarminic Awesome.
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Q Sertorius
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Posted - 2008.08.05 23:54:00 -
[12]
While I don't want to see any changes to existing useful rigs (CCCs, ANPs, etc.), I would love to see the useless rigs get improved.
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Orb Lati
ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 00:49:00 -
[13]
Supported.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Finnroth
Sirrius Cybernetics Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.08.07 01:23:00 -
[14]
Absolutly worth some dev-time.
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The ChurchWarden
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:25:00 -
[15]
I'd first like to point this out very seriously as an Amarr pilot. In an abaddon if you decided to go 2 trimark 1 CCC or 3 trimark and say 1 heavy cap booster and 2 cap recharger II's your still not cap stable. Infact most amarr ships would become near useless and no race needs cap stability more since it directly affects DPS & tank. Unlike caldari or Minmatar with low or no cap usage and Gallente with drones the Amarr need that strong cap backbone.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: The ChurchWarden I'd first like to point this out very seriously as an Amarr pilot. In an abaddon if you decided to go 2 trimark 1 CCC or 3 trimark and say 1 heavy cap booster and 2 cap recharger II's your still not cap stable. Infact most amarr ships would become near useless and no race needs cap stability more since it directly affects DPS & tank. Unlike caldari or Minmatar with low or no cap usage and Gallente with drones the Amarr need that strong cap backbone.
He specifically said he doesn't want to reduce or eliminate their effects, he just thinks that effects that generic are poor design for rigs and should be avoided in future, and that narrower rigs should have bigger bonuses in order to make them worthwhile. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: The ChurchWarden I'd first like to point this out very seriously as an Amarr pilot. In an abaddon if you decided to go 2 trimark 1 CCC or 3 trimark and say 1 heavy cap booster and 2 cap recharger II's your still not cap stable. Infact most amarr ships would become near useless and no race needs cap stability more since it directly affects DPS & tank. Unlike caldari or Minmatar with low or no cap usage and Gallente with drones the Amarr need that strong cap backbone.
He specifically said he doesn't want to reduce or eliminate their effects, he just thinks that effects that generic are poor design for rigs and should be avoided in future, and that narrower rigs should have bigger bonuses in order to make them worthwhile.
Exactly ^^
In furtherance to your point, The ChurchWarden, would it not be GREAT for amarr if Energy Discharge Elutriation was WAY better than CCC? It would be MUCH easier to become cap stable on an Abaddon if you could eat into the gun's cap use directly, rather than just boosting overall recharge. you can do it now, but the CCC has no penalty, and the EDE has too small a bonus. If the EDE had a big bonus, then it'd be the choice!
( I'd also completely disagree with the idea that amarr would be useless if CCCs were nerfed - what PVP abaddon fits a ccc or a cap recharger? That's not a relevant point. But like I say, I dont want CCC nerfed. I want to see it a poor choice to use CCC except on boats that need cap for lots of things - e.g. a capital ship that needs it for jumping, tanking, shooting, remote repping. A boat like an abaddon that uses cap for only one thing, or /mostly/ one thing, would benefit from EDE rig being very useful.) _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Omber Zombie
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2008.08.07 05:14:00 -
[18]
nicely written and worthy of discussion imho ----------------------
CSM 08 Blog |
Lance Fighter
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Posted - 2008.08.07 06:26:00 -
[19]
I agree.
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Zorda
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Posted - 2008.08.07 06:47:00 -
[20]
well thought out ideas, deserves discussion
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Neville Bartos
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.08.07 07:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: El Yatta
Warp core strength
Gimme!!! |
Karentaki
Maximum Yarrage
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:48:00 -
[22]
/supported
============= RE: The piracy nerf
Originally by: agent apple I believe I can safely speak for many of us when I say,
Dear Devs, Go Back to WOW
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Marya Sklodowska
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:55:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Marya Sklodowska on 07/08/2008 11:55:11 These proposals have my support. The crap rigs are one of those things CCP will fix eventually, whether it's this winter if they start looking at it now, or in 2 years when a dev happens to notice how bad some of them are while playing on the test server (Deimos speed buff anyone?). I'd prefer it be sooner rather than later.
----------------------------------- Raivi's Research Alt -Explosion Matrix- Support Sarmaul's MWD MKII |
Rostran Targo
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.08.07 15:39:00 -
[24]
Hey look! It's a signature!
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Josemite
SXyCreW CODE RED ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2008.08.07 21:24:00 -
[25]
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.08.07 22:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: El Yatta Q: TL:DR? A: You're a cretin. But go on then:
I'd sign it just for this. However, all of your ideas are sound, and just happen to be stuff I've voiced, myself, prior.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.09 00:28:00 -
[27]
Thankyou everyone for the positive feedback. Is there anything anyone would add or change? I think more feedback and discussino would be helpful before poking a CSM to add it to the agenda for the next meeting. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.09 00:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 09/08/2008 00:57:10 Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 09/08/2008 00:51:59 I only see one mistake, and that's that you want a minus, not a plus, here:
Originally by: El Yatta Energy vampire ôtransfer levelö - increase the point at which your nos starts to steal cap, e.g. My cap + 20%.
I also have two suggestions. One, all these new rigs should try to emphasize use of the "crap" salvage components as much as is practical. We don't want more of them that use up melted cap consoles and alloyed trit bars, give us some with charred micros and contaminated Lorentz. Two, for the rigs that do absolute things(-100% cap need for warp, +2 jump harmonics, etc.), make sure the T2 versions still exist - they should use significantly less calibration than the T1, or give bonuses to other things as well(Covert Jump Bridge fuel use, etc.). But eliminating T2 is lame, so give them a reason to exist when you can't just increase the bonus 5%.
Other than that, I like it quite a lot. Get poking! |
Natalia Kovac
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.09 01:41:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 09/08/2008 01:45:25 Yeah, i'd like to see more variety in rigs. Or at least, more point to fitting a specialised one over a vanilla rig.
Part of the problem I think, is that you can't change rigs without blowing them up. Therefore, if you want to change to a different type of setup on the same ship, you have to stick to the same rigs. So people tend to stick to the generic ones that help all setups. But, if like you said, a more specialised rig gave a significant advantage over a generic one, then it would be worth fitting.
The other thing I think that maybe needs to be addressed is where the penalties lay. Some of them are ok, like more grid use for weapon rigs, that makes sense, and you have to fiddle with your setup to make sure the guns fit if you use them. But stuff like polycarbs, affecting your armour? Oh noes my armour! On my LSE-tanked ship! Whatever will I do??!! Maybe something more relevant should be penalised, such as agility, or increased mwd cap use, something like that, that would actually hurt the nano-setup, and maybe make the pilot think twice before automatically polycarbing everything.
P.S. The optimal range rig stacking bug needs to be fixed already.
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Nanus Parkite
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.09 01:59:00 -
[30]
Great ideas.
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Jim Raynor
Shinra
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Posted - 2008.08.09 05:12:00 -
[31]
I agree. Rigs could be a lot more specialized. I'd like to see them add things to your ship you generally can't get via modules, right now they're just extra module slots.. especially with the CCC ones and stuff. ------ I'll make a sig later. |
Calla Vee
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Posted - 2008.08.09 09:50:00 -
[32]
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Jeirth
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.09 10:40:00 -
[33]
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Suitonia
interimo
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Posted - 2008.08.09 11:54:00 -
[34]
awesome |
Alaki Kant
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.09 15:55:00 -
[35]
Support.
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Demus DaVet
Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.11 15:46:00 -
[36]
Solid arguments very well thought out. ---------------------------- Implement Racial Fleet Setups
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Red Raider
Airbourne Demons
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Posted - 2008.08.11 16:43:00 -
[37]
Anything that makes each and every module and rig in the game a viable alternative is fantastic!
This also should apply to modules like a shield recharger since it is almost always better to simply add shield extenders and flux coils or PDU's than waste a mid slot on something less useful when the mid's are the most valuable slot to a shield tank.
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
Drolus
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:36:00 -
[38]
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Gaius Terium
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Posted - 2008.08.11 20:07:00 -
[39]
Very good idea. Would take a lot of thought to avoid the same thing that this is meant to fix, but with attention and care, would be amazing. /signed
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:58:00 -
[40]
Yet more positive feedback, thankyou.
Would any CSM (<3 Omber, btw, but amirite in thinking alternates cannot propose stuffs for meetings?) care to share their opinions on this matter
I feel its a simple one that could improve diversity of setups and bring a lot of stuff out of uselessness, with little risk of creating game-breaking setups and overpowered rigs, purely because the aim is to have less stats stacking up to huge multiples of their original number, not more. It would also not take vast amount of dev time to implement.
On a related note, how would it be for people if rigs were "forcing" diversity by only be allowed to fit one of any rig? I tried to acheive that idea in the OP without a hard limit, but now I think about it, it does make sense - after all, you cant replace your Engine Housings with polycarbon material more than once, can you? _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
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dethleffs
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.12 21:56:00 -
[41]
nice idea!
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Gneiss Guy
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Posted - 2008.08.13 06:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: El Yatta
Would any CSM (<3 Omber, btw, but amirite in thinking alternates cannot propose stuffs for meetings?)
correct afaik.
also on the not doubling thing - I don't have an issue with multiple uses of the same rigs - you do have more than one engine your ship :)
oh, and posting with an alt to give it another thumb
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Pavlinka
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Posted - 2008.08.13 10:56:00 -
[43]
what to say .... great /signed
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:17:00 -
[44]
Diary of a pod pilot |
Hugo Rune
Ministry of Serendipity
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:30:00 -
[45]
Supported!
Plenty of things in the game have gone from useless to useful, without verging on the overpowered - damage controls, inertial stabs, shield relays.
All the unused rigs should get the same treatment!! ------------ ||| ----------
Hugo Artemis Solon Saturnicus Reginald Arthur Rune
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:54:00 -
[46]
I dont agree with everything you said but rigs definetly need a review. Especially the penalties or lack therof for the rigs. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.08.15 11:00:00 -
[47]
Approving the principle
San Matari Official forums |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Crystal Ship
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Posted - 2008.08.15 11:15:00 -
[48]
Sounds like a good Idea.
Also, Hardin has proposed that this idea is brought onto the Agenda for the meeting on the 17th of August.
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AndzX11
Siorai Iontach
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Posted - 2008.08.15 19:27:00 -
[49]
/signed
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Irongut
M'8'S Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.08.15 23:05:00 -
[50]
We definitely need more rigs and a boost for the underused ones. You're ideas on how to improve them are also very well thought out, while reading them I saw several new ones I'd love to use. As a rig producer and user I wholeheartedly support your ideas.
--
The future is Black. Brace for Impact! |
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Arithron
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.15 23:27:00 -
[51]
Definately good ideas for discussion and esculation!
You touched upong the T1/T2 rig problem (ie, why T2 rigs are under-utilised). The current situation where two T1 rigs (since zero stacking pens) are better than 1 T2 rig (for less cal in some cases)is frankly crazy. This situation, coupled with extremely vast differences in build costs between a T1 rig and T2 variety, means most T2 are never built and used at all.
Take care, Arithron
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DiamondEdges
Black Lotus Foundation Damned Pirates
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Posted - 2008.08.16 03:28:00 -
[52]
This post I must give a 9 out of 10, good job, well rounded thoughts and lots of info to think about.
I certianly agree that rigs need both a little balancing and prolly a few more new rigs as well. Though I am guilty of taking advantage of some of theese end all be all rigs in certian set ups I do agree that it is unbalanced and needs some careful attention.
However, I also think that salvage needs to be looked into as well to bring more salvage for people makign rigs, I personally think we need a hike of 100 percent on salvage that comes out of things however after discussion with others 20 percent seems a lot more balanced. The cost of some rigs, especially t2 rigs can get insane and tbh most t2 rigs are not worth what people try to get out of them unless you're an isk farmer and can afford to throw away a month of isk on a single t2 rig.
All in all I support this thread!
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Amarr Holymight
Bat Country Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.08.16 03:46:00 -
[53]
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Leneerra
GenTech Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:49:00 -
[54]
And do not forget to add a penalty on the rigs that currently have none
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.17 17:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Leneerra And do not forget to add a penalty on the rigs that currently have none
Why? ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2008.08.18 07:52:00 -
[56]
just so you know, it was raised at the last csm meeting was approved for escalation ----------------------
CSM 08 Blog |
Akarr Creitos
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Posted - 2008.08.22 09:47:00 -
[57]
Yup, like this idea.
And nicely though out too.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2008.08.22 12:46:00 -
[58]
A nice write up and I agree that something must be done with the rigs that are specialized but not giving a bonus that would attract someone to use them.
And most importantly for Drone rigs, I'm waiting for something to happen since right now is almost impossible to use them on a drone boat (in general drone boats tend to have lower PG/CPU than the similar class ships of the other races).
Devs did a good start with introducing rigs, i hope they will continue this sooner than later. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.22 13:29:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Strill on 22/08/2008 13:29:27
Originally by: El Yatta Here is a list of in-game statistics that could, without causing huge balance issues, be made into rigs. None of them have an associated module or non-ship skill bonus.
Drone Capacity (no longer a dps increase now we have Bandwidth) Turret/Launcher Ammunition Capacity Cloak Velocity Modifier Turret Signature Resolution Mining Laser Range Mining Laser Cap Use Bomb Launcher Cycle Time Bomb HP Tractor Beam Range/speed Max Locked Targets EW module Falloff
FYI there's already a set of modules for max locked targets, and a skill for EWAR falloff.
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.22 13:44:00 -
[60]
Originally by: El Yatta By contrast, loads of rigs go unused û weep for the Hyperspatial Velocity Optimiser (20% warp speed)
I disagree. They've helped a great deal in allowing my completion of the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs.
Otherwise, nicely written posts - will read again more closely.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.08.22 23:36:00 -
[61]
You forgot a rig:
Singature Reduction (reduces ship signature radius by +7.5%/lvl (T1), 10%/lvl (T2) in whatever rigging skill, with zero penalties).
There is nothing, other than ship bonii and a never-used implant set, that reduces signature radius, but a ton of stuff that increases it.
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BiggestT
Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.26 13:32:00 -
[62]
Edited by: BiggestT on 26/08/2008 13:32:09 Although you sort of touched on it you never mentioned some of the majot problems with unused rigs..
E.G Hybrid rigs -any hybrid boat e.g. ferox, eagle is insanely tight on pwg, the fact that they make guns use more grid means they are never used, sure these rigs do need a downside, but the current drawback is just redicoulous, make it eye-for-an-eye e.g more hybrid dmg but less tracking, more tracking lower falloff etc etc
edit: but supported on the general concept ;) poudly annoying fc's since 2007
Originally by: Sheriff Jones *ding ding!*
Wrangler: Hello and w
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners...*goes back to reading*
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.26 13:46:00 -
[63]
Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 26/08/2008 13:32:09 Although you sort of touched on it you never mentioned some of the majot problems with unused rigs..
E.G Hybrid rigs -any hybrid boat e.g. ferox, eagle is insanely tight on pwg, the fact that they make guns use more grid means they are never used, sure these rigs do need a downside, but the current drawback is just redicoulous, make it eye-for-an-eye e.g more hybrid dmg but less tracking, more tracking lower falloff etc etc
edit: but supported on the general concept ;)
I actually dont agree on this - I think gun rigs are quite nicely balanced for drawbacks, but suffer from problems with stacking. I'd like to give them a bigger bonus to make them more popular to fit, rather than change the PG drawback, which is a very balanced mechanic.
Plenty of boats have the grid to use gun rigs - you often see amarr bs, zealots, etc, with Locus rigs, and boats like the mega and rokh can too. The Eagle and ferox have less grid because they received an extra turret recently, but with not quite enough extra grid. Being tricky to hybrid rig them is presumably intended when those ships got boosted. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.09.14 23:46:00 -
[64]
When I think of rigs, I think of crazy bullshit like fitting a V12 Merlin in a pinto.
Give us rigs for that kind of thing, then you'll see some specialized setups with really tricky behavior.
Oversized Engine Mounting -- -50% AB PG requirement
Magnum Shell Chamber -- +50% damage -80% tracking. A matar junk rig that's for slinging oversized ammo at Amarr ships. Requires beefing up the turret mount to compensate for the increase in propellant.
What'd be really cool is if rigs would respond to certain ship bonuses. I.e. Gallante ships with hybrid damage bonuses have dedicated cyclotron hardware that can be jimmy-rigged into boosting Plasma Smartbomb output.
Brutor Hobo Tents -- Brutor tribe engineers who are laid off from CCP fly around in spaceships collecting parts of other ships and attaching them to your ship until you're flying a Naglfar.
Chimera's 'R Us -- Strip the guts of one hull and replace it with similar systems from another ship. Thorax with bonuses to small projectile turrets for efficient support swatting?
Limit to T1 hulls as the stuff has to be simple enough to begin with in order to be mated without major headaches.
Launcher Tube Extensions -- Fit multiple missiles in a launcher by ripping out the rapid reloading mechanisms. -400% RoF but 200% damage increase. SB fun rig :-)
Oh, and my absolute favorite candidate for rigs that can truly make some cool ships:
Pinpoint Defense Calibration -- Shield systems on the ship are turned off and instead used in conjunction with the armor system, intercepting incoming fire that armor is bad at handling, applying shield resists to armor. Shield base resists and shield mods apply somewhat to armor in exchange for zero base shield.
Harmonic Containment Destruction -- Hybrid turret optimal cut 50% and damage increase of 30% Plasma containment collapses on itself at short ranges, causing an even more massive explosion.
Ammo Overfeed -- Sacrificing accuracy for raw output, Mini engineers jack up the ammo feed rate beyond the turret's vibration damping capabilities. +25% RoF, -50% sig resolution.
Analog Launcher Control -- Reduces CPU requirements of launchers and lowers missile explosion velocity as missiles no longer do higher order trajectory corrections.
Barrel Extensions -- +25% kinetic damage of projectile ammo -50% tracking +20% falloff
ECM Failsafe Removal -- Sacrifice shielding systems designed to protect an ECM boats own sensors for increased PWN. -50% sensor strength +30% jammer strength. For pulling off really intense jams where counter-jamming is less of a concern.
Just slewing out a bunch of numbers, but yeah, rigs are really kinda boring and don't offer any real increases to "interesting" setups with single-minded purposes. ---------------------------------------
Originally by: Red Raider A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.09.15 15:07:00 -
[65]
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Sang Jin
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.16 05:04:00 -
[66]
+1 Brilliant
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shuckstar
Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2008.09.17 03:29:00 -
[67]
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Zaranya Amarr
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:24:00 -
[68]
Nice
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galphi
Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.09.20 02:13:00 -
[69]
This is an excellent idea, well thought out and documented. Increasing the bonus from the marginal rigs and introducing new, clever rigs (drone bay increase please!) is a fantastic idea. Ten thumbs up!
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Orion GUardian
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Posted - 2008.09.22 00:45:00 -
[70]
/signed
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