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Taco Raptorian
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:25:00 -
[1]
I mean how can missiles always hit even at extremely close ranges? Aren't they launched and then find their target and if so how can they avoid the ship launching them?
I say ships should have to face the opponent to fire at them or else risk being hit by their own missiles. If you say it's because that launchers can turn to the right direction they should have to have tracking issues as well as turrets.
Oh and watch out! The drake cleanup is about to begin very soon.
You have been warned.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:27:00 -
[2]
because the missiles lock onto the target ship BEFORE the ship launches them at which point they go chase it using fancy computers
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:28:00 -
[3]
You are only poasting cus you want to save your dominix cus it sux, you should l2p you f'ing n00b and stop poasting. When i fire missiles i want em to hit target everytime wtf tracking they are guided ffs they should always hit if something they need a big boost so that they can pwn you even moar you know nothing can you even use rockets?!
Can you sense that i am upset!!??!!!111oneoneon
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Taco Raptorian
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:48:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Gawain Hill
because the missiles lock onto the target ship BEFORE the ship launches them at which point they go chase it using fancy computers
Yes, ok but if the ship that the missile have locked on to is moving very fast in orbit around the launcher the missile should have to chase the target and not go straight at it and instantly hit. Sometimes straight through the launching ship.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:51:00 -
[5]
As soon as the guns stop hitting the target while shooting (and not damaging nor getting reduced damage) through buildings, asteroids or other ships, sure. 
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Staggerr
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:57:00 -
[6]
Internet spaceships, and you worry about how super advanced missiles have super advanced tracking? I still haven't figured out why they 'spawn' in the middle of a ship, instead of coming out of actual launchers.
And missiles already got something similair to a tracking problem like turrets do. It's called explosion velocity, and explosion radius. That, and not being able to do instant damage to targets far away.
Now go back to the Features and Ideas forum. 
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Dr Sheepbringer
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Posted - 2008.08.05 11:58:00 -
[7]
If you think that's add...what about a 4x missile salvo only showing as one light!!! OMG!!! The unspoken realismhorror!
Also quite a lot of missilesracks turn, so tracking might be a thing that has been overlooked.
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Zantei
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Posted - 2008.08.05 12:06:00 -
[8]
I have trained my missiles to speak German.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.05 12:12:00 -
[9]
Simple: they're not recruited on these forums.
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Taco Raptorian
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Posted - 2008.08.05 12:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Staggerr
Internet spaceships, and you worry about how super advanced missiles have super advanced tracking? I still haven't figured out why they 'spawn' in the middle of a ship, instead of coming out of actual launchers.
And missiles already got something similair to a tracking problem like turrets do. It's called explosion velocity, and explosion radius. That, and not being able to do instant damage to targets far away.
Now go back to the Features and Ideas forum.
Yeah well I understand if a ship is flying at ludicrous speeds that you loose damage because of explosion velocity and radius, but the speeds you get while orbiting another ship at 0.5-1km isn't quite that high. It seems missiles always hit at those really close ranges giving full damage and being superior to turrets. 
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Phoenix Torp
Caldari
Kingmakers
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Posted - 2008.08.05 13:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Taco Raptorian
Originally by: Gawain Hill
because the missiles lock onto the target ship BEFORE the ship launches them at which point they go chase it using fancy computers
Yes, ok but if the ship that the missile have locked on to is moving very fast in orbit around the launcher the missile should have to chase the target and not go straight at it and instantly hit. Sometimes straight through the launching ship.
Welcome to the missiles world. +Very fast? +Very rare trajectory? Give the welcome to some friends: Guided Missile Precision & Target Navigation Prediction. Not all the Raven s can destroy a High-speed frigate, either in a mission or a pirate.
I've always thought that missile ships are not done for the PVP. By the main reason that can hold the stand by being at 2xx kms of the enemy, and the game maximum range for warp of something is 100km. If you destroy some non-missile BS being at 15km of that, then it's mostly sure that he attacks with miners & salvagers
You say that either near of far of the enemy we can hit it. Yeah, we hit them, but we do í"%$%! damage comparising with turrets. Our ****ing assfull Raven's don't get the 1000DPS, but if you train to overload 
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Skills |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.05 15:22:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 05/08/2008 15:22:06
Originally by: Zantei
I have trained my missiles to speak German.
AAAH! *******E!
Also, slight boost to droneboats FTW.
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krelak
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Posted - 2008.08.05 15:41:00 -
[13]
Edited by: krelak on 05/08/2008 15:42:40
I'm struggling to believe this is a real post but since it doesn't bare the typical "nerf zohan" type stupidity I'll assume your being serious.
Missiles even in todays day and age can track a target at multi-mach speeds while dodging obstacles and hit their target with pinpoint precision, this is all without human guidance. It's no stretch to believe that this same kind of accuracy exists in a future so far distant that we have completely explored our own galaxy and have moved into another one.
*edit*
As for the missile being close range the point is moot. The missile would just circle around and hit the target from the other side. Again, something that is already done in todays technology.
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RID 230
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Posted - 2008.08.05 15:55:00 -
[14]
Edited by: RID 230 on 05/08/2008 15:56:21
Edited by: RID 230 on 05/08/2008 15:55:51
seriously dude...get your info from stuff other then ace combat..
Aim-9x
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Dai'nin Roi'nin
Absinthe Brothers Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Burn Mac
You are only poasting cus you want to save your dominix cus it sux, you should l2p you f'ing n00b and stop poasting. When i fire missiles i want em to hit target everytime wtf tracking they are guided ffs they should always hit if something they need a big boost so that they can pwn you even moar you know nothing can you even use rockets?!
Can you sense that i am upset!!??!!!111oneoneon
In a word: laim?
Learn2Spell, emoragenerd.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Taco Raptorian
Originally by: Gawain Hill
because the missiles lock onto the target ship BEFORE the ship launches them at which point they go chase it using fancy computers
Yes, ok but if the ship that the missile have locked on to is moving very fast in orbit around the launcher the missile should have to chase the target and not go straight at it and instantly hit. Sometimes straight through the launching ship.
I'm annoyed that my missiles don't launch from missile bays but forcing missiles to be the ONLY weapon that have a fixed arc of fire and them having to chase targets means that you want to nerf missiles in the scenario where they're actually better than turrets. As a general rule turrets are better than missiles at range (a misconception built from years of people saying that the target will just warp or die before you missiles get there, which may indeed be true in some scenarios) but inferior to missiles at close range (turrets track based on rotaional velocity, and as such yield a variable number regarding the max speed of target you can engage at a given distance whereas missiles track on an absolute velocity basis. Currently this is a huge disadvantage for missiles because exceeding the threshold for damage of a medium missile is a trifle. After the nerf heavy missiles will once again become viable weapons for engaging cruisers.
Does this mean HML's will be the unstoppable super weapons of the new age? I doubt it - you still have to face the music that you're outgunned by many cruisers in a HML drake, even with exceptional skills (I recently broke 400 DPS using t1 ammo myself thanks to BC V, and the max I'll get is 415 without adding a new BCS/Implant to the mix the thorax can put up similar numbers albiet with a less robust ability to absorb punishment). Does this mean a Drake will butcher cruisers? Yes - but let's face the music here - the BC is to the cruiser what a destroyer is to a frigate - a weapon purpose built to destroy it's smaller cousins.
All that being said, it would be AWESOME if they fixed the stupid graphic where missiles pop out of the middile of my ships but if you're going to force my missiles to hurt me if the pass through me on the way to a target I'd also like to see clipping for asteroids and other ships, and would like to give railguns, blasters and autocannon/artillery rounds travel time (fun note it takes many seconds for a 155mm howitzer round to reach its target when it's all of 18km downrange but apparently advances in duct tape and explosives have allowed minmatar ships to sling giant shells at the speed of light which makes me wonder why they aren't unstoppably powerful).
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:21:00 -
[17]
Based on your post, I'd have to that say missiles are smarter than you.
Missiles in the modern day have no problem not hitting their launchers. That's why they're called "guided missiles". Do you think they just mindlessly look for "things" to hit without any regard for their designated targets? These are not WW2 torpedoes or early heat-seeking missiles. These are precision guides missiles far into the future.
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Kuno Hida
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:29:00 -
[18]
OMG!! Missilz bot hax!! NERF!
You've got to be kidding me. You can accept faster than light travel, laser weapons, cloning, complete memory storage, and you're wondering about how missiles track?
Obvious troll is obvious. Well done.
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Mr Ignitious
Gallente
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.05 19:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kuno Hida
OMG!! Missilz bot hax!! NERF!
You've got to be kidding me. You can accept faster than light travel, laser weapons, cloning, complete memory storage, and you're wondering about how missiles track?
Obvious troll is obvious. Well done.
in that case we may as well install warp drives on all our missiles now so they can chase targets through warp!! har har take that everyone, you'll never escape again!!
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
Originally by: Kuno Hida
OMG!! Missilz bot hax!! NERF!
You've got to be kidding me. You can accept faster than light travel, laser weapons, cloning, complete memory storage, and you're wondering about how missiles track?
Obvious troll is obvious. Well done.
in that case we may as well install warp drives on all our missiles now so they can chase targets through warp!! har har take that everyone, you'll never escape again!!
Logic and Reality often don't mesh well with game balance and that all important "fun" factor (remember this is a game we're playing - presumably it's designed to entertain us while liberating the oppressed contents of our wallets). To question missile guidance in an age bustling with staggeringly advanced technology is almost silly. I don't question why a railgun fires a slug as fast as a laser in spite of the fact my understanding of physics says that's qutie impossible.
That being said I'm perfectly fine with missiles coming out of launchers along with a whole host of graphical redesigns. I'd also like to see clipping implemented so hiding behind asteroids/ships/stations will actually provide protection from weapon's fire. I was EVER so dissapointed when I tried that and found it does nothing.
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Nightsheir
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:36:00 -
[21]
Warping around in solar system like walking in a living room, as much as you like without fuel , jumping to another system instantly . Going through planets and sun not damaging nereby ships .
Nobody questions these, because its all fine , but once something makes you whine, the logic part of brain starts interrogating the cause " WHY missiles are so smart, they wtfpwned me in CLOSE range !!!"
Infact the close range there , what was it , 3k ? umm. 3000m ?
Oh wait, so thats 3km ?
And its logicaly ok for a missile to lose the sight of target in 3 'KM' . Against a ship thats 40 Meter Long (frigate) Roughly a small target in eve.
No, the problem is whining much, not the missiles.
And yes, boost amarr . Tired of playing with laser toyguns. |
Srioghal moDhream
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:44:00 -
[22]
Seriously, if anything this post should be concerned about guns. Huge ships in which every single turret on it has a 360 degree sphere target area.
Missiles are guided, hence the skill guided missile precision. There for they can be fired from any angle and change its own trajectory to intercept its target while avoiding other obstacles.
Explain how gun/laser turrets do this.
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Devils Sin
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:52:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Yeah well I understand if a ship is flying at ludicrous speeds that you loose damage because of explosion velocity and radius, but the speeds you get while orbiting another ship at 0.5-1km isn't quite that high. It seems missiles always hit at those really close ranges giving full damage and being superior to turrets.
Ok so the fact that you can send torps at a nonmoveing frig and have them only do 20dmg makes sense to you. Yet your confused about auto tracking missiles?
Atom bomb drops on a house and a rat leaves unscaved. realistic?
Guided missiles with radar tracking technology. Fantasy?
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
in that case we may as well install warp drives on all our missiles now so they can chase targets through warp!! har har take that everyone, you'll never escape again!!
i want
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of all the things I've lost,
I miss my mind the most |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream
Seriously, if anything this post should be concerned about guns. Huge ships in which every single turret on it has a 360 degree sphere target area.
Missiles are guided, hence the skill guided missile precision. There for they can be fired from any angle and change its own trajectory to intercept its target while avoiding other obstacles.
Explain how gun/laser turrets do this.
Less than HALF of the missiles in eve are "guided" - rockets, HAM's and Torps are all "dumb" and are unaffected by the guided missile skills. That being said they still seem to be able to alter course after being fired so it seems like an arbitrary determination made for the sake of game balance.
As far as turrets go, all the turret really needs to be able to do is track the target in space. Since it can do that and since all turret's are hit scan weapons (I.E. they hit the moment they fire) if your crosshair is over the target at the firing cycle you land a hit. Fancy maneuvers don't help at the instant of firing and would only arguably aid you in the pre fire phase where you might be able to duck out of the crosshairs.
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Nightsheir
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream
Seriously, if anything this post should be concerned about guns. **
Explain how gun/laser turrets do this.
Its simple , grab a hightech spaceship . Remove the hightech weapons from their hardpoints , Replace those with some ww2 howitzers . Man them and tell them to try shooting enemy ships.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Canon_155mm_TRF1_fh000024.jpg
Tracking/Sig Resolution explained.
And yes, boost amarr . Tired of playing with laser toyguns. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.05 21:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nightsheir
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream
Seriously, if anything this post should be concerned about guns. **
Explain how gun/laser turrets do this.
Its simple , grab a hightech spaceship . Remove the hightech weapons from their hardpoints , Replace those with some ww2 howitzers . Man them and tell them to try shooting enemy ships.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Canon_155mm_TRF1_fh000024.jpg
Tracking/Sig Resolution explained.
It would actually be quite hard if you think about it. Your own speed would screw with the projectile post firing (simple vector addition for ease of math if you want to actually try to come up with numbers) combined with a finite speed projectile (a few kilometers a second) that cannot alter course after being fired means you'd have to know with a very small margin of error exactly where to fire the gun to hit another moving spaceship. If you assume all of this is being handled by the onboard fire control systems one has to think that the system is in fact amazingly advanced because margin of error is fantastically small. Modern tanks get away with this because in the time it takes a tank shell to travel from the cartridge to the target you have less than a second to maneuver you tank - and that span of time isn't going to grant you much in terms of course alteration when it comes to 70 tons of steel lumbering about.
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Nightsheir
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Posted - 2008.08.05 21:11:00 -
[28]
If you had such computing there , you would never miss a moving target with constant speed.
Which is the main problem in eve . Simple orbits and simple transversal velocities is all you need is to beat that second hand ship computers we have .
This is why you dont mix logic much into eve . This thread is fail from the start because it stucks at the question
-> how in the first hand can you get that close to a ship , without bumping it and utterly getting your puny ship destroyed.
Enjoy with what you have. There is only some mild logic in eve to spice things up thats all. This is still a game , wake up everyone.
And yes, boost amarr . Tired of playing with laser toyguns. |
Srioghal moDhream
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Posted - 2008.08.05 21:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
As far as turrets go, all the turret really needs to be able to do is track the target in space. Since it can do that and since all turret's are hit scan weapons (I.E. they hit the moment they fire) if your crosshair is over the target at the firing cycle you land a hit. Fancy maneuvers don't help at the instant of firing and would only arguably aid you in the pre fire phase where you might be able to duck out of the crosshairs.
this is my point. essentially all of your turrets have to be on one side of the ship and the ship you are shooting at has to be on that same side, a fast frigate moves to the opposite side and is now out of the operational range of the turrets.
Or the turrets are split half on one side half on the other (or spaced about the ship)
So they can all target the ship if it is above below in front of or behind the ship. But once the target moves to one side some of the turrets will no longer be able to target it as the hull would restrict its movement and firing capabilities.
All of the turrets would need to be able to target every point on a sphere with a radius the size of their range. To have all turrets have the exact same (and all) of the targeting range of all the others would be impossible unless the turrets themselves moved to different locations on the hull as you fired.
However in eve these turrets can rotate and fire through the ship with ease so it is not a problem
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.05 21:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream
Originally by: Derek Sigres
As far as turrets go, all the turret really needs to be able to do is track the target in space. Since it can do that and since all turret's are hit scan weapons (I.E. they hit the moment they fire) if your crosshair is over the target at the firing cycle you land a hit. Fancy maneuvers don't help at the instant of firing and would only arguably aid you in the pre fire phase where you might be able to duck out of the crosshairs.
this is my point. essentially all of your turrets have to be on one side of the ship and the ship you are shooting at has to be on that same side, a fast frigate moves to the opposite side and is now out of the operational range of the turrets.
Or the turrets are split half on one side half on the other (or spaced about the ship)
So they can all target the ship if it is above below in front of or behind the ship. But once the target moves to one side some of the turrets will no longer be able to target it as the hull would restrict its movement and firing capabilities.
All of the turrets would need to be able to target every point on a sphere with a radius the size of their range. To have all turrets have the exact same (and all) of the targeting range of all the others would be impossible unless the turrets themselves moved to different locations on the hull as you fired.
However in eve these turrets can rotate and fire through the ship with ease so it is not a problem
If you look carefully you'll see that turret based ships actually have TWO turrets per actual gun fitted to resolve this issue (Rokh for example has eight guns on each side of the ship). This doesn't ENTIRELY fix the issue in some cases - there are instances where your own ship will have small parts in the way and there would be the occasional blind spot but by and large the issue is resolved through having more guns than actually available.
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