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Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 14:59:00 - [1] What does everyone think is the best Amarr PVP battlecruiser post nerf? Me, personally, I think the better ones will be the ones with strong tanks and that means that the Prophecy will once again shine with it's far better resists. Am I wrong though? And what setups would you use?
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:05:00 - [2] There's only one Amarr Battlecruiser and it's called Harbinger. Prophecy is mislabelled and should really be moved into "Bricks with attitude" class of the ships.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:12:00 - [3] Originally by: Ziena Amani There's only one Amarr Battlecruiser and it's called Harbinger. Prophecy is mislabelled and should really be moved into "Bricks with attitude" class of the ships. I've flown these ships, and this truth hurts my memories.
Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:14:00 - [4] The Harbinger has a paper thin tank though, and other BC's, like the Myrmidon, are able to tank all but say 10% of it's effective DPS while they wail upon it with 80% or so of their own.
Daftex Muleson Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:16:00 - [5] The Prophecy looks waaay better than the Harby. It also has an awesome tank. Needs another gun though
Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:17:00 - [6] The Harbinger does not active tank, you plate it up, and then you out-damage anything BC and smaller and win...
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide The Harbinger has a paper thin tank though, and other BC's, like the Myrmidon, are able to tank all but say 10% of it's effective DPS while they wail upon it with 80% or so of their own. Well, if you have seven lowslots you should be able to compensate for that. My suggestion is up your skills, if you really think that you'll be flying these things. And it really gets at me when someone calls it a 'paper-thin tank' when it's just sub-standard.
Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:27:00 - [8] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Nitrogendixoide The Harbinger has a paper thin tank though, and other BC's, like the Myrmidon, are able to tank all but say 10% of it's effective DPS while they wail upon it with 80% or so of their own. Well, if you have seven lowslots you should be able to compensate for that. My suggestion is up your skills, if you really think that you'll be flying these things. And it really gets at me when someone calls it a 'paper-thin tank' when it's just sub-standard. I compared the myrmidon and the Harbinger in combat, assuming Harbinger has perfect skills and manages to stay right at it's optimum the whole time. Though it puts out more damage (about 25% more) than the Myrmidon, it's tank is some 4 times worse. The Myrmidon is simply able to outlast it. When I pitted the Myrmidon against the prophecy though I got a far more even match up.
Artemis Rose Odd End of the Universe	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:29:00 - [9] The Prophecy doesn't do enough damage to be competitive vs BCs, despite a superior tank. __________________________________________________ Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat.
Amberly Coteaz Amarr The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide The Harbinger has a paper thin tank though, and other BC's, like the Myrmidon, are able to tank all but say 10% of it's effective DPS while they wail upon it with 80% or so of their own. Well outside of 1v1 scenarios I would say the Harbinger is one of the better all round BC. It has a reasonable buffer tank and good dps that it can project out to 20km. The only ship I fear in one is a HAM drake. Hurricanes are pretty nasty too, but its always a good fight. Myrmidons can either be easy, hard or very time consuming but pretty much always consists of sitting out of web range and wailing upon them until they run out of cap charges (armour rig speed penalties ftw!). The tier one BC generally dont have the buffer tank or DPS in the right ratios to really be a threat. If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong Originally by: Patch86 OK people, Amberly Coteaz has won life for the time being. Everyone go home and wait for the round reset.[/quote
woozaaa	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Well, if you have seven lowslots you should be able to compensate for that. My suggestion is up your skills, if you really think that you'll be flying these things. WTB harbi with 7 lows @OP: Prophecy sucks and will always suck. Harbinger isn't paperthin either. You buffertank it and it works just fine. In a straight 1v1 with no one else involved ships like the myrmidon with a strong tank and moderate dps were always very good. You are not beating a decent myrmidon 1v1 with a harbinger. If you go gank you only have a very small hitpoint buffer(about as much ehp as the myr but you don't have the repping potential). You won't break his tank fast enough before your buffer is depleted. If you go fmps with 1600 and decent hitpoint buffer you lose the gank to even scratch his active tank if hes rigged. If you active tank you fail. You lack gank, tank and ehp at the same time. But away from this fairy tale stuff like 1v1 the harbinger is actually the best bc(currently on tq). With the new nerfs both harbinger and drake will get even stronger and be the undisputed kings of the bc class (and drake will substitute harbi as the best bc). As for prophecy. Well for starters if your myr tanks 90% of harbis dps then its most probably gonna tank 250% of a prophecy and that is with one rep. Not to mention it has only 3 meds which sucks, lacks powergrid for a decent fit, has a tiny dronebay and well just outright sucks, sucks, sucks. There isn't even one good thing about the ship cept how it looks. If you want to do something useful in a prophecy hull then get a damnation or abso. Both are excellent ships and among the best in their class.
Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:56:00 - [12] Originally by: woozaaa But away from this fairy tale stuff like 1v1 the harbinger is actually the best bc(currently on tq). With the new nerfs both harbinger and drake will get even stronger and be the undisputed kings of the bc class (and drake will substitute harbi as the best bc). Can you explain how that's going to help it? The upcoming patch is going to make it harder to get into optimum range with the neutering of MWDs. If anything that would seem to help drone ships rather than blaster/pulse laser/autocannon ships. It'll surely help Rail/beam/arty ships though.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:14:00 - [13] I think your all forgetting a Very key point in the Harby vs Myrm fight, the Harby can TOAST the Myrms drones in seconds each. *******The tears of those who fail to adapt sustain me.
Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:16:00 - [14] Originally by: SuiJuris I think your all forgetting a Very key point in the Harby vs Myrm fight, the Harby can TOAST the Myrms drones in seconds each. Does it have the tracking to hit something so small and moving so quickly so close? It could probably hit them with it's own drones, but then the Myrmidon pilot can hit those drones as well and can do a better job being in a drone ship.
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide Originally by: woozaaa But away from this fairy tale stuff like 1v1 the harbinger is actually the best bc(currently on tq). With the new nerfs both harbinger and drake will get even stronger and be the undisputed kings of the bc class (and drake will substitute harbi as the best bc). Can you explain how that's going to help it? The upcoming patch is going to make it harder to get into optimum range with the neutering of MWDs. If anything that would seem to help drone ships rather than blaster/pulse laser/autocannon ships. It'll surely help Rail/beam/arty ships though. Drake and harbinger are very slow ships. the upcoming speed nerf will make them slower, yes, but because they are not usually speed fit other ships will have a greater overall speed decrease, meaning the harbi and the drake are actually FASTER comparatively after the patch. Slower speeds overall is also going to assist in tracking and for getting drones on.
Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:23:00 - [16] Missiles can now hit everything...
woozaaa	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide Can you explain how that's going to help it? The upcoming patch is going to make it harder to get into optimum range with the neutering of MWDs. If anything that would seem to help drone ships rather than blaster/pulse laser/autocannon ships. It'll surely help Rail/beam/arty ships though. Well you are right that from some point of view its a nerf. But at the same time everyone else gets nerfed too. Now the question would be who gets hit the hardest? Naturally those are the two races with very short ranged short range weapons: gallente and minmatar. The cane still has its falloff to do some good dps at say 20km (if it fits falloff rigs) but harbi is still in scorch optimal here. Drake can easily hit at about 20km too with hams or go for still respectable dps with hmls (if you don't forget 3 x bcs) at obscene ranges. Blasters need to get to 5km to really outdps them. Acs can compete somewhat but not really. Its not like people won't go close in anymore. Warp disruptor range is still 24km and at 24km drake + harbi just outperform the other bcs. Brutix + cane tend to need to go closer in to do the same gank which will take much longer with the new patch plus someone might just deactivate their mwd on the way to the primary. As for drones well drones are slow and in gang pvp they don't account for much tbh. Its not even comparable to say a harbi that will lay instant hurt to any ship within a 22-24km radius. Of course beams/rails/arties will also be more prevalent as you pointed out. In bigger gangs they always have been more useful. Though tbh the best sniping platforms are caldari and amarr too for the most part so... But speaking of short range weapons (and the web/scram/disruptors still favour short range) those who can do damage to every ship that may scramble them no matter if they got pinned down with a scram or not have the advantage. Hope that explains it a bit.
Wideen Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:58:00 - [18] It's a shame that you can't break that myrmi tank with 700 dps
Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:08:00 - [19] I suppose I see your point woozaaa. Originally by: Wideen It's a shame that you can't break that myrmi tank with 700 dps I want to know how you could possibly setup a Harbinger to get 700 dps with any semblance of a tank (buffer or otherwise) The best I'm getting 627 with all skills at level 5 and that won't run for very long at all and is slow as **** so good luck getting into range to hit anyone with your Conflagration crystals. [Harbinger, PVP] Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Cap Recharger II Warp Disruptor II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5
Wideen Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:11:00 - [20] Edited by: Wideen on 05/08/2008 17:11:55 Here's how I do it with my skills: [Harbinger, PvP (Gang gank)] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II Faint Warp Prohibitor I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Large EMP Smartbomb I /OFFLINE Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5 It has 14k armor, it won't tank like a beast, or anything remotely as such, but it dishes out decent dmg. Edit: decent dmg = 700 dps
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide Can you explain how that's going to help it? The upcoming patch is going to make it harder to get into optimum range with the neutering of MWDs. If anything that would seem to help drone ships rather than blaster/pulse laser/autocannon ships. You're forgetting pulses do just fine all the way up to 24km range, and drones don't like being left alone fighting a ship 24km off anyway. You can counter-drone with your drones all day until your target loses all DPS. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Warocia Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide What does everyone think is the best Amarr PVP battlecruiser post nerf? Me, personally, I think the better ones will be the ones with strong tanks and that means that the Prophecy will once again shine with it's far better resists. Am I wrong though? And what setups would you use? Silly question Harbinger is closing 800dps with few damage implants and still have about 50k buffertank plus it do have one more mid slot soo...
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:39:00 - [23] What is the logic behind thinking tanky BC's will be stronger next patch? I can't see it (at all). Harbinger will still own the noobs, Prophecy will still be a waste of time.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Daftex Muleson The Prophecy looks waaay better than the Harby. It also has an awesome tank. Needs another gun though This. Absolutely agree. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:50:00 - [25] Originally by: Boz Well What is the logic behind thinking tanky BC's will be stronger next patch? I can't see it (at all). Harbinger will still own the noobs, Prophecy will still be a waste of time. My idea is that the inability to maneuver into optimum range will negatively affect quite a few larger slower ships like BC's and hurt close range DPS. Tanking is unaffected by this change in maneuverability though.
Wideen Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide My idea is that the inability to maneuver into optimum range will negatively affect quite a few larger slower ships like BC's and hurt close range DPS. Tanking is unaffected by this change in maneuverability though. As Branko pointed out, amarr ships laugh at close range optimals
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.05 18:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide Originally by: SuiJuris I think your all forgetting a Very key point in the Harby vs Myrm fight, the Harby can TOAST the Myrms drones in seconds each. Does it have the tracking to hit something so small and moving so quickly so close? It could probably hit them with it's own drones, but then the Myrmidon pilot can hit those drones as well and can do a better job being in a drone ship. Pulse harbis can roast medium and heavy drones handily. I think the best drone killing BC is a HML Drake (two volleys for bonused ogre II's 1 for bonused hammerhead II's two for bonused hobgoblin II's last time I fought a drone boat). The key to fighting any drone boat is being able to kill the drones - once you pull it's teeth it doesn't have much left to defend itself with. If you can't efectively engage drones (I.E. you're in a battleship and your drones are dead and you don't have a web and you don't have a smartbomb) then your option is to outgank your opponent. Drone ships for the most part are tough nuts to crack thanks to the complete lack of reliance on guns for offensive potential. The key to killing drones in ANY turret ship is webbing them. You won't get clean hits often on the smaller drones but their low HP (even when bonused an Ogre II has the HP of a base T1 cruiser)
Nitrogendixoide Dragons Den Chains Of Chaos	Posted - 2008.08.05 18:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Wideen Originally by: Nitrogendixoide My idea is that the inability to maneuver into optimum range will negatively affect quite a few larger slower ships like BC's and hurt close range DPS. Tanking is unaffected by this change in maneuverability though. As Branko pointed out, amarr ships laugh at close range optimals I agree with Branko that Amarr ships are less prone to being negatively impacted by optimum range than other races like Min or Gal. Minmatar will probably be the worst hit, but the Gallente will be less so because they rely on drones to a greater degree and these are completely unaffected by the MWD nerf (unless people start targeting drones with their warp scrams for some reason). None the less, I think the balance will change even with the Amarr making Harbinger a little less powerful will impacting the Prophecy even less, helping it's relative position in the Amarr BC.
Wideen Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 18:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide None the less, I think the balance will change even with the Amarr making Harbinger a little less powerful will impacting the Prophecy even less, helping it's relative position in the Amarr BC. It's your opinion, and I respect it but I don't bump it..
Sheriam Bayanar	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:12:00 - [30] So what would be a good pvp setup for this thing if you only have about 10 million skillpoints?
korrey Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:48:00 - [31] Prophecy was mislabeled under "Amarr". It actually goes under the "Minmatar" category. Couldn't you tell? It's just as ugly as minmatar players and their ships... ----------- Amarr- If you like to handicap yourself before the fight begins, then we may accomodate your needs surprisingly well.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:54:00 - [32] Hm, it's also fairly weak and completely outdone by other Amarr ships. You might be onto something...
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:04:00 - [33] Originally by: woozaaa Prophecy sucks and will always suck. Harbinger isn't paperthin either. You buffertank it and it works just fine. In a straight 1v1 with no one else involved ships like the myrmidon with a strong tank and moderate dps were always very good. You are not beating a decent myrmidon 1v1 with a harbinger. Harbinger and Hurricane should have no trouble dealing with a myrm. While it has indeed a very solid armor tank when rigged, that tank doesnt run forever and it will be slow. Basic steps: 1) kill drones 2) use superior speed to kite / enjoy your range 3) wait for his cap charges to deplete 4) ??? 5) profit (usually a few t2 armor tanking mods)
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Sheriam Bayanar So what would be a good pvp setup for this thing if you only have about 10 million skillpoints? That would depend almost ENTIRELY on where those SP were invested. One can be very specialized in a particular harbinger fitting with only 10 million SP (fitting skills maxed, a single gunnery type maxed, armor skills exceptional, cap skills maxed etc). If youre anything like I was at 10 million SP your skills are going to be all over the board and you'll be able to do lots of things poorly. My recommendation however is a standard gank harbinger fit. Not knowing what your skills are I can't help but the logic goes something like this: Highs: Highest damaging pulse lasers you can fit and afford Mids: Tackle/MWD/Cap and/or Tracking Lows: Damage Mods and Buffer Rigs: None or Trimarks Drones: Hammerhead or Hammerhead II's The specific modules can be worked out from there pretty easily - just wedge in the best versions you can and make compromises when you have to. Without phenominal skills it's hard to get a full T2 fitting on ANY BC without resorting to fitting mods or maxing out your fitting skills (and even THEN some ships still need fitting mods to fit a full rack of guns alone).
woozaaa	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Lilith Velkor harbi/cane vs. myr While i agree on principle its not always that easy. For starters a harbinger just doesn't have a speed advantage against a myrmidon. Maybe if the harbi isn't rigged but it will have a much weaker tank then anyway. A harbi generally will only be able to prolong the time its not webbed and can use its range advantage only in that timeframe. The cane is a different beast but either you keep out of webrange or you don't. (and with overheated webs and mwds you generally don't at least not for long if that cane is armor tanked) If you do the myr can just as easily disengage and warp off. If you don't you will end up very close in blaster range and at a range where drones can be recalled easily. The myr will switch between two of its waves and while you are slowly working down on the drones with constant relocking you recieve blaster damage or get neuted. You won't break the myr while he has cap charges unless you're gank fitted and have no tank and with your pitiful rep amount your hp buffer will melt even to the mediocre damage of a myrmidon. I have flown drone boats and the way you describe it just isn't the only outcome of such an engagement. Speaking of the coming patches i rather don't see a cane keeping a myr at distance tbh. The agility and mass changes, the warp scramblers and the reactivation delay will kill every chance you have to pull it off. Just my 2 cents.
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:47:00 - [36] Harbinger is, as noted, the only one worth using. I just fit the biggest guns, three heatsinks and plate it as well as I can. Throw caution to the wind and try to blow the opposition out of space. If it fails, well I had fun.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:48:00 - [37] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 06/08/2008 05:51:05 Originally by: woozaaa I have flown drone boats and the way you describe it just isn't the only outcome of such an engagement. Well, it all boils down to who's flying the ship. But most (if not all, do not recall exactly) fights cane/myrm I had ended with a dead myrm in the way described. I usually do not armor rig my pvp ships tho (trimarks for a fly-n-die setup isnt wise imho), some of the cane setups I use are speedfit, so I have no trouble keeping a myrm at range. Originally by: woozaaa Speaking of the coming patches i rather don't see a cane keeping a myr at distance tbh. The agility and mass changes, the warp scramblers and the reactivation delay will kill every chance you have to pull it off. Just my 2 cents. True, sadly On the other hand, I dont really think the mass changes (on minnie ships) and the mwd reactivation delay will make it to TQ at all.
forum mematar	Posted - 2008.08.06 06:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide I compared the myrmidon and the Harbinger in combat, assuming Harbinger has perfect skills and manages to stay right at it's optimum the whole time. Though it puts out more damage (about 25% more) than the Myrmidon, it's tank is some 4 times worse. The Myrmidon is simply able to outlast it. When I pitted the Myrmidon against the prophecy though I got a far more even match up. Linkage There, although it was unrigged and although, there was a Vagabond with him. After killing him I jumped out with about 5-10% armor left. --- http://stige.pingtimeout.net/evevids/
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.06 06:40:00 - [39] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Basic steps: 1) kill drones 2) use superior speed to kite / enjoy your range 3) wait for his cap charges to deplete 4) ??? 5) profit (usually a few t2 armor tanking mods) Yeah, um... that first part oftentimes becomes a bit difficult, if they know what they're doing. And the third part. Myrms usually have shitloads of NOS/Neut in the highslots. So the real advice should be to stay the **** away from him as much as possible only. Otherwise, say byebye to your cap and speed advantage. At which point, if you're in either a Harb or a Chicken, he'll get you.
Kano Sekor Amarr The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide I suppose I see your point woozaaa. Originally by: Wideen It's a shame that you can't break that myrmi tank with 700 dps I want to know how you could possibly setup a Harbinger to get 700 dps with any semblance of a tank (buffer or otherwise) The best I'm getting 627 with all skills at level 5 and that won't run for very long at all and is slow as **** so good luck getting into range to hit anyone with your Conflagration crystals. [Harbinger, PVP] Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Cap Recharger II Warp Disruptor II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Replace Cap Recharger w/ Tracking Computer giving you a tracking of around 0.7 rad/s Add Medium Neutralizer in last high slot, that should keep you clear from all those AF:s post nerf. Giving me an EHP of 58 k and a repping of 70 DPS while dishing out 563 dps. Quite balanced might not take out a myrmidon but then again what BC does? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
korrey Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Kano Sekor Originally by: Nitrogendixoide I suppose I see your point woozaaa. Originally by: Wideen It's a shame that you can't break that myrmi tank with 700 dps I want to know how you could possibly setup a Harbinger to get 700 dps with any semblance of a tank (buffer or otherwise) The best I'm getting 627 with all skills at level 5 and that won't run for very long at all and is slow as **** so good luck getting into range to hit anyone with your Conflagration crystals. [Harbinger, PVP] Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Cap Recharger II Warp Disruptor II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Replace Cap Recharger w/ Tracking Computer giving you a tracking of around 0.7 rad/s Add Medium Neutralizer in last high slot, that should keep you clear from all those AF:s post nerf. Giving me an EHP of 58 k and a repping of 70 DPS while dishing out 563 dps. Quite balanced might not take out a myrmidon but then again what BC does? Heavy Pulse Laser II's are your friend...Focused are not. ----------- Amarr- If you like to handicap yourself before the fight begins, then we may accomodate your needs surprisingly well.
Sheriam Bayanar	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:34:00 - [42] Originally by: korrey Originally by: Kano Sekor Replace Cap Recharger w/ Tracking Computer giving you a tracking of around 0.7 rad/s Add Medium Neutralizer in last high slot, that should keep you clear from all those AF:s post nerf. Giving me an EHP of 58 k and a repping of 70 DPS while dishing out 563 dps. Quite balanced might not take out a myrmidon but then again what BC does? Heavy Pulse Laser II's are your friend...Focused are not. What kind of fit would work? Heavy Pulse Laser II's eat up almost all of the grid leaving nothing for anything else.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Sheriam Bayanar Originally by: korrey Originally by: Kano Sekor Replace Cap Recharger w/ Tracking Computer giving you a tracking of around 0.7 rad/s Add Medium Neutralizer in last high slot, that should keep you clear from all those AF:s post nerf. Giving me an EHP of 58 k and a repping of 70 DPS while dishing out 563 dps. Quite balanced might not take out a myrmidon but then again what BC does? Heavy Pulse Laser II's are your friend...Focused are not. What kind of fit would work? Heavy Pulse Laser II's eat up almost all of the grid leaving nothing for anything else. [Harbinger, Gank] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I (CPU issues preventing you from going with DCII) Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Faint Warp Prohibitor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Small EMP Smartbomb I /OFFLINE Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x5 HPL IIs leave easily enough grid for a MWD and an 800mm plate. I have also noticed that most pilots won't run their armor reps until their shields are gone - a fine choice given that they are relying on cap boosters and there's no sense running reps while at full armor. Since you tear through shields in a matter of seconds though what this means is you get a good length of time to eat their armor before their first rep cycle resolves and in my experience this is a pretty significant advantage. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:42:00 - [44] The Harbi is an amazing BC. . .I would rank it as being better then even a drake. It needs t2 drones and really good gunnery skills. . .but once you get those things, the Harbi is the shock wepon on choise. It looks good to boot/. ---- GO BLUE!!
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:44:00 - [45] Originally by: Dahak2150 Harbinger is, as noted, the only one worth using. I just fit the biggest guns, three heatsinks and plate it as well as I can. Throw caution to the wind and try to blow the opposition out of space. If it fails, well I had fun. Wise words and great sig. ---- GO BLUE!!
Katashi Ishizuka Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:49:00 - [46] Edited by: Katashi I**uka on 06/08/2008 19:49:50 Hey look what I can kill in this thing. 800 DPS, 50k EHP. Who needs a web when you can load Scorch M. [Harbinger, [PVP] Maximum Gank] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Co-Processor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Large EMP Smartbomb I /OFFLINE Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Hammerhead II x5
Foocurr	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:50:00 - [47] Originally by: Katashi I**uka Edited by: Katashi I**uka on 06/08/2008 19:49:50 Hey look what I can kill in this thing. 800 DPS, 50k EHP. Who needs a web when you can load Scorch M. [Harbinger, [PVP] Maximum Gank] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Co-Processor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Large EMP Smartbomb I /OFFLINE Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Hammerhead II x5 not even funny
Katashi Ishizuka Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:00:00 - [48] Edited by: Katashi I**uka on 06/08/2008 20:02:13 It's not a joke. :/ 2xLSE gank battlecruisers get flown all the time on TQ in small gangs. You mostly see it on Hurricanes though.
Foocurr	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:02:00 - [49] Originally by: Katashi I**uka It's not a joke. :/ You just made it funny.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:33:00 - [50] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/08/2008 20:33:55 Originally by: woozaaa While i agree on principle its not always that easy. For starters a harbinger just doesn't have a speed advantage against a myrmidon. Maybe if the harbi isn't rigged but it will have a much weaker tank then anyway. A harbi generally will only be able to prolong the time its not webbed and can use its range advantage only in that timeframe. The cane is a different beast but either you keep out of webrange or you don't. (and with overheated webs and mwds you generally don't at least not for long if that cane is armor tanked) If you do the myr can just as easily disengage and warp off. If you don't you will end up very close in blaster range and at a range where drones can be recalled easily. The myr will switch between two of its waves and while you are slowly working down on the drones with constant relocking you recieve blaster damage or get neuted. You won't break the myr while he has cap charges unless you're gank fitted and have no tank and with your pitiful rep amount your hp buffer will melt even to the mediocre damage of a myrmidon. I have flown drone boats and the way you describe it just isn't the only outcome of such an engagement. Speaking of the coming patches i rather don't see a cane keeping a myr at distance tbh. The agility and mass changes, the warp scramblers and the reactivation delay will kill every chance you have to pull it off. Just my 2 cents. That's because you're doing it wrong (considering post-patch changes). With high skills, you can go point-blank on the Myrmidon and try to burn through his tank. It'll have less buffer then you, but mitigate some (a fair bit, actually). Locking/relocking drones up close is not a way you can win, and you can't kite the Myrmidon anymore so you're preety much stuck with going with Hail M+CN Fulmination HAMs+Hammerhead II+4xHobgoblin II, 1km range, 3 gyro setup, overheat guns, and start melting. The real danger is if the Myrmidon menages to keep you out of Hail M range, then you're screwed, because he can tank (most) of your Barrage DPS while you're eating practically full drone DPS vs your not so huge buffer. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
woozaaa	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:40:00 - [51] Originally by: Cpt Branko Locking/relocking drones up close is not a way you can win, and you can't kite the Myrmidon anymore so you're preety much stuck with going with Hail M+CN Fulmination HAMs+Hammerhead II+4xHobgoblin II, 1km range, 3 gyro setup, overheat guns, and start melting. The real danger is if the Myrmidon menages to keep you out of Hail M range, then you're screwed, because he can tank (most) of your Barrage DPS while you're eating practically full drone DPS vs your not so huge buffer. Well, thats basically how i like to roll in a hurricane even now on tq. I plate them and if i see say a harbi i am going close in and try to gank the shit out of it. Haven't met a myr in ages though. ;) However the person i responded to suggested that kiting the myr and killing the drones would be the way to go. I just pointed out that these things don't work so good against myr pilots (imho) with a clue even now. Not to mention with the proposed sisi changes. Basically from what i see we agree here?
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:44:00 - [52] Originally by: woozaaa However the person i responded to suggested that kiting the myr and killing the drones would be the way to go. I just pointed out that these things don't work so good against myr pilots (imho) with a clue even now. Not to mention with the proposed sisi changes. Basically from what i see we agree here? Yes, I agree completely here. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sheriam Bayanar	Posted - 2008.08.06 22:04:00 - [53] Edited by: Sheriam Bayanar on 06/08/2008 22:08:35 Edited by: Sheriam Bayanar on 06/08/2008 22:04:19 Originally by: Foocurr Originally by: Katashi I**uka Edited by: Katashi I**uka on 06/08/2008 19:49:50 Hey look what I can kill in this thing. 800 DPS, 50k EHP. Who needs a web when you can load Scorch M. [Harbinger, [PVP] Maximum Gank] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Co-Processor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Large EMP Smartbomb I /OFFLINE Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Hammerhead II x5 not even funny Actually it isn't that bad when you consider the cost of outfitting it like this. It's some 30-40 million isk cheaper to outfit it like that when compared to most posted setups here, and that means you can loose two of these ships for every one of these more expensive setups and still be just as much poorer. Overall it's not too shabby and I think it could work pretty well in a small gang or large situation. It's shield buffer is only some 6000 Effective HP less than the armor buffer you get with other setups. The tankable DPS on this is also higher than pretty much any setup with a repper. Plus you're buffer will replenish itself without you having to dock so it works well with roaming gangs in lawless 0.0 space where a space station may be 6 or more jumps away.
nthexwn Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:02:00 - [54] The Prophecy is a sort of "hazing" that Amarr pilots have to go through before they can fly an Absolution... At least that's how it was back in my day before tier 2 BCs! ;P
Kano Sekor Amarr The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:31:00 - [55] Originally by: Sheriam Bayanar Edited by: Sheriam Bayanar on 06/08/2008 22:08:35 Edited by: Sheriam Bayanar on 06/08/2008 22:04:19 Originally by: Foocurr Originally by: Katashi I**uka Edited by: Katashi I**uka on 06/08/2008 19:49:50 AMAZING FITS not even funny Actually it isn't that bad when you consider the cost of outfitting it like this. It's some 30-40 million isk cheaper to outfit it like that when compared to most posted setups here, and that means you can loose two of these ships for every one of these more expensive setups and still be just as much poorer. Overall it's not too shabby and I think it could work pretty well in a small gang or large situation. It's shield buffer is only some 6000 Effective HP less than the armor buffer you get with other setups. The tankable DPS on this is also higher than pretty much any setup with a repper. Plus you're buffer will replenish itself without you having to dock so it works well with roaming gangs in lawless 0.0 space where a space station may be 6 or more jumps away. Hmm so you expect to never go to armor in this? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nai Weil Caldari Tupperware Party	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:13:00 - [56] Prophecy is always going to come up short against its big brother - in fact most BCs will. It's almost cruel to compare Prophecy and Harbinger. Originally by: nthexwn The Prophecy is a sort of "hazing" that Amarr pilots have to go through before they can fly an Absolution... At least that's how it was back in my day before tier 2 BCs! ;P I always felt it was like training boxing with those weights strapped to your hands. If you can fly a Prophecy well (and granted, at BC V it really feels quite nice - shame it's so weak at BC III and below) suddenly you switch to Harbinger and it's like WHOA. Just remember you no longer have over 90% resistance to EM and you'll feel very very good.. With Absolution it's going to take longer, but yeah - the feeling is similar. I read somewhere that the Binger does comparable damage to the Absolution, though - but it's worth it just for the Hull... =)
Sheriam Bayanar	Posted - 2008.08.07 13:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Kano Sekor Hmm so you expect to never go to armor in this? Well the damage is some 100 dps higher than pretty much any other fitting here, so that should reduce the amount of time it would take to kill anyone by 1/6 at the worst, even more when compared with some of the lower damage fits. It also has a smaller armor and structure buffer under the shield buffer which should also help. But the main benefit of this is that when you're in small gangs and no one is doing any damage to you, you're pumping out loads of dps and not wasting it on trying to tank in the glass cannon.
Ilyena Telamon	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Nai Weil Prophecy is always going to come up short against its big brother - in fact most BCs will. It's almost cruel to compare Prophecy and Harbinger. I don't really know. Each of the ships have their comparative advantage. The problem lies in people trying to get the Prophecy to do something it's not so good at, dealing loads of damage, and sacrificing something it's very good at, absorbing loads of damage. When you try and maximize what each is comparatively good at you should get far better results.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:07:00 - [59] Originally by: Nitrogendixoide What does everyone think is the best Amarr PVP battlecruiser post nerf? Me, personally, I think the better ones will be the ones with strong tanks and that means that the Prophecy will once again shine with it's far better resists. Am I wrong though? And what setups would you use? Theres a second amarr battlecruiser?
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.08.07 23:27:00 - [60] Originally by: Ilyena Telamon Originally by: Nai Weil Prophecy is always going to come up short against its big brother - in fact most BCs will. It's almost cruel to compare Prophecy and Harbinger. I don't really know. Each of the ships have their comparative advantage. The problem lies in people trying to get the Prophecy to do something it's not so good at, dealing loads of damage, and sacrificing something it's very good at, absorbing loads of damage. When you try and maximize what each is comparatively good at you should get far better results. In a gang a high-tank, low-damage ship is pretty worthless. The other side will just save you for last as you're not harming them much. Solo is only a little bit better. Chances are the bad guy's just going to leave if y are slowly chipping away and he can't kill you. Addiitonally, tanks are usually outweighed by the damage put out by a ship of equivalent class. Not to mention the Harbinger has more fitting, more slots, and that ever-awesome fourth mid.
Ilyena Telamon	Posted - 2008.08.08 04:31:00 - [61] Originally by: Dahak2150 In a gang a high-tank, low-damage ship is pretty worthless. The other side will just save you for last as you're not harming them much. It's difficult to tell how much damage each person is putting out when multiple players are attacking the same ship. I also think you are being uncreative in your thinking about how to use the ship. While, of course, the ship is not good at pumping out loads of damage, it's perfectly suited as bait for a gate camp, or for lugging around more important goods. Or, you could put armor/shield reppers on it's high slots and use it to boost the tanks of other ships while being tough enough to take a good beating itself. There's plenty of uses for the ship. You just have to be more original about how you use it.
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.08.08 04:59:00 - [62] Edited by: Dahak2150 on 08/08/2008 05:01:12 Originally by: Ilyena Telamon Originally by: Dahak2150 In a gang a high-tank, low-damage ship is pretty worthless. The other side will just save you for last as you're not harming them much. It's difficult to tell how much damage each person is putting out when multiple players are attacking the same ship. I also think you are being uncreative in your thinking about how to use the ship. While, of course, the ship is not good at pumping out loads of damage, it's perfectly suited as bait for a gate camp, or for lugging around more important goods. Or, you could put armor/shield reppers on it's high slots and use it to boost the tanks of other ships while being tough enough to take a good beating itself. There's plenty of uses for the ship. You just have to be more original about how you use it. It isn't difficult to figure out if the Prophecy or the Harbinger/Deimos/Other high damage ship is more dangerous. If you're having difficulty, perhaps PVP isn't your thing. Hint: One is going to sit there and not do a whole lot, maybe live a few seconds longer, the other is going to rip into whatever ship it wants to. Some ships simply are not hard to make calls on. Not to mention, the things you list as making it attractive as a bait ship also make it obvious as a bait ship. It's used by low-skill people who don't know better, and if there's someone who would know better, what are they doing in that ship? Oh, bait. As a logistics ship it is also terrible. Any extra resilience is far outweighed by how poorly it would serve in the role you're attempting to force on it. No range bonus, no effectiveness bonus, no cap bonus, nothing. Usually I'm loathe to mention common opinion, but in this case it does apply. The Prophecy has been relegated to the "only because I don't have enough money" bin for a reason.
Lars Lodar The Red Scare	Posted - 2008.08.08 07:09:00 - [63] Originally by: Amberly Coteaz Originally by: Nitrogendixoide The Harbinger has a paper thin tank though, and other BC's, like the Myrmidon, are able to tank all but say 10% of it's effective DPS while they wail upon it with 80% or so of their own. Well outside of 1v1 scenarios I would say the Harbinger is one of the better all round BC. It has a reasonable buffer tank and good dps that it can project out to 20km. The only ship I fear in one is a HAM drake. Hurricanes are pretty nasty too, but its always a good fight. Myrmidons can either be easy, hard or very time consuming but pretty much always consists of sitting out of web range and wailing upon them until they run out of cap charges (armour rig speed penalties ftw!). The tier one BC generally dont have the buffer tank or DPS in the right ratios to really be a threat. Amberly pretty much nails it. Especially about the HAM Drake which I love. Harbs are damn sexy ships as they are pure gank and have a sizable drone bay for flexibility on top of effective guns. But since they produce the best damage and have one of the weaker tanks for Battlecruisers, be prepared to be primaried often.
Nai Weil Caldari Tupperware Party	Posted - 2008.08.08 07:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Ilyena Telamon It's difficult to tell how much damage each person is putting out when multiple players are attacking the same ship. I also think you are being uncreative in your thinking about how to use the ship. While, of course, the ship is not good at pumping out loads of damage, it's perfectly suited as bait for a gate camp, or for lugging around more important goods. Or, you could put armor/shield reppers on it's high slots and use it to boost the tanks of other ships while being tough enough to take a good beating itself. There's plenty of uses for the ship. You just have to be more original about how you use it. I fly the Prophecy - it's my main ship, and I love it despite all the wet blankets thrown on me when I started. It's certainly serviceable, and good enough for most level III missions (it does struggle with the Guristas Blockade). I got it cheap as an introduction to Battlecruisers, and the idea was to start cheap, get some experience, and when I finally lose it, I'll have enough experience to fly a Harbinger. Until now I have yet to lose it, and ever since I got Hull Upgrades V and some Tech II hardeners it's been tanking magnificently - and there's still another level of Battlecruiser and extra 5% resists to come. It's a wonderful ship which completely removes the need for a Harbinger for me, and I'll probably move straight to an Apocalypse someday. Prophecy deserves respect, and is not the trash everyone says it is. However, despite my love for it, I'd be lying if I didn't accept that the Harbinger was better. The other three factions have managed to balance their Battlecruisers a bit better. The Brutix and Myrmidon both have their different areas of speciality in guns and drones, while the Drake, although superior to the Ferox in almost every way, is obviously a second choice when the pilot prefers railguns (and can't be bothered to crosstrain for Brutix). Even the Cyclone, which is generally regarded as a little brother to the Hurricane, has an extra midslot (and loses two lowslots) and more CPU, more shields and bigger drone bay compared to the Cane, resulting in different possibilities and configurations for the ship. The Prophecy, on the other hand, is out CPUed, out Gridded, out Capped, out Shielded, out Armoured (unforgiveable as it's supposed to be the tanking BC), out Structured (for what it's worth), out Droned (couldn't they at least give it an identical Drone Bay to the Harbinger?), out high slotted and out mid slotted compared to its big brother. To be comparable, Prophecy would probably need at least 50m¦ drone bay (bandwidth too would be nice - for an Amarr Battlecruiser 25m¦ is just low), another low slot to set it aside as a better tanker than the Harbinger (or to slot in an extra heat sink to compensate), and base armour in excess of that of the Harbinger (I know it has more EHP, but it just feels wrong to see it have less armour than the Harbinger). Let the Harbinger keep its 7 guns and extra mid to give it more offensive advantages, at least this way the Prophecy has a niche. Right now it can tank better, but only if you train that BC skill up past level III to gain good resists to beat the 12% extra armour the Harbinger has. It is an inferior ship in almost every way, but nevertheless I love it, and will keep flying it. Hopefully someday the poster-boy ships Prophecy and Tempest will get some good boosts to keep them in play, but for now realists will scoff, and the romantics will continue to use them!

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