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Reasons that killing suicide ganking is bad.

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Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:43:00 - [1] Macros. We all see them, going out to a field filling their cargo and going back to station to drop off their load. 23 hours a day they operate, basically making mining for profit useless. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. This includes fdlkjsf and fkwodoc that mine ice for the purpose of selling it for RMT purposes. AFK miners, not unlike macros, they sit an indy ship somewhere and check back every now and again to target new roids and go AFK. While not as damaging to the mining industry as macros in a hulk, it's still pulling in ore 23 hours a day. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. NPC corp missioners. No chance to get war decced, making assloads of isk and being rewarded for very little risk. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. Now I am all for the no insurance payout to those ships that concord kills, have been for a long time, but I also realize that suicide ganking is a necessary tactic. What bothers me is the change to sec status hits. To me it doesn't make sense to have a bigger decrease than there already is. A good couple hours of ganking and you are -2 easily. I know this because I have a few alts that all I use them for is a hit squad. They need to look at this mechanic a little more closely I believe before they implement it. And I will be suicide ganking ships on the test server to see just how fast over the live rule set you lose sec rating. Also seeing if in fact the concord reaction time is something to worry about.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:02:00 - [2] Originally by: Soporo Quote: If you suicide gank any ship that isn't worth more than the ship you're about to lose, you're essentially a barking moron deserving of a painful reminder to play intelligently. What this guy said in another thread. As for Macros they are here to stay (unfortunately) and CCP is and always has been the only real defense against them. This change just got rid of the posers and amateurs and the "casual" lolssgank, that's all. There are lots of ships that cost more than a caracal. And there are lots of people that actively hunt macro miners and suicide them every chance they get. And with the increased concord response time it does seem that CCP is trying to get rid of one of the mechanics that I have loved and used since I started playing the game.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Furb Killer Luckily for you there are enough macro haulers in low sec, kill them. And the killing macro argument is getting kinda old. Bumping afk miners out of range or just getting a hulk to deplete their roid is much easier. NPC corp people missioning is a problem how? The macro argument is getting old because CCP never does anything about it. Killing them and costing them isk is the best way to deal with them. Hulks are un-insurable and if you kill enough of their hulks they start to hurt. Bumping is nothing. As soon as they realize they have been bumped they are right back at it. NPC corp missioners can do basically what ever they want and you can't kill them legally. Some times people deserve to die and for these people suicidal caracals are the best way to deal with them.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Mika Meroko Originally by: Joey Meow What do you mean by "killing suicide ganking?" I have been gone for the last day or so and something else is getting nerfed? WTF? Some more information please.... Unless this is just baseless ranting and just confusing us good forum whoring people. they are just nerfing insurance for concord kills... just raises the bar for ganking... so that now you cant gank everybody, their mother, their pets, the fleas on their pets.... you can still gank people... just that is gonna cost ya (unless you found a jucy target) instead of insurance paying for all your cost and more.. Except the fact that rocket kestrels can still be used for minimal isk loss, if you have enough of them. What I am more concerned with is the upped concord response time and higher sec hits for it. Really do you believe that this is going to bring more people into a game that is already past the 5 year mark? No, it's just making one of the best free form PvP MMOs out there more restrictive.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:24:00 - [5] But in 0.0 there is no need for a suicide squad because if you can catch them they are fair game. I would place money on the fact that high sec macks and hulks ice mining 23 hours a day probably pull in about the same as 0.0 ratters would. And the high sec miners have a far greater chance that their ship is going to last for as long as needed.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Kerfira Using one flawed game mechanic to argue that another flawed game mechanic should stay doesn't work that well..... Address first one, then the other..... There is nothing flawed about suicide gank minus the insurance pay out. Remove it, problem solved. I am for no insurance of Concorded ships. What I am against is faster Concord spawns and the possible greater sec hits for doing so. This is yet another step towards a comic I saw in an old Computer Gaming World. My EVE, the reason I started playing and kept coming back was because you can kill anyone, anywhere, for what ever reason your heart desired. More and more you buff up safe zones, the more that vision of the game I like dissipates. For years I have believed that EVE was a place where I can immerse myself in the vast virgin territories of EVE where power is the Holy Grail and the ultimate aphrodisiac. Where I could conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin. The galaxy is yours to control if you have the brains, strength, and cunning to succeed. If that last paragraph sounds like a marketing guy wrote it, it probably was. Because those are the words that I bought the game for and they come from the box that EVE was sold in back in 2003-early 2004. More and more though it's getting further from those words.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Schalac on 07/08/2008 05:22:57 Originally by: Terminus adacai The logic in the OP is totally insane... /lock So you like macros coming into your space and dumping the market with material lowering prices? You like NPC corp players totally avoiding PvP because you can't wardec them. You like people getting all their riches and abilities that ISK brings with no risk? I don't. I've even sponsored runs of suicide players to help remove these people from our space. Perfectly fitted kessis and caracals I gave away, just so that they would be slammed into people like this that I describe. No my logic is perfectly sane, you are the one that doesn't see clearly.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Also, you can easily compensate for the sec hit by just getting more alts and only suicide ganking with your main when absolutely necessary. No, see this is where you fail. I suicide gank with the same alts because recycling alts is against the ToS. Also I want people to see my name and know what's coming. I have no reason to hide. They are the ones that recycle and cheat, I am here to put an end to that. If you make it harder for me to do that then they win. And no one wants them to win, unless you are one.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Terminus adacai Originally by: Schalac Edited by: Schalac on 07/08/2008 05:22:57 Originally by: Terminus adacai The logic in the OP is totally insane... /lock So you like macros coming into your space and dumping the market with material lowering prices? You like NPC corp players totally avoiding PvP because you can't wardec them. You like people getting all their riches and abilities that ISK brings with no risk? I don't. I've even sponsored runs of suicide players to help remove these people from our space. Perfectly fitted kessis and caracals I gave away, just so that they would be slammed into people like this that I describe. No my logic is perfectly sane, you are the one that doesn't see clearly. No, I do not like any of the things you mentioned. Suicide ganking is NOT the answer to macro's, as it is also used with relative ease against haulers that are not macros. I applaud this new proposed change and I do not AFK AP nor have I ever been suicide ganked. Ganking is not being removed, simply balanced. Anyone that argues otherwise, may have some alts with security issues. :) So please tell me, if killing their hulks and macks enough times to cost them greater isk than they can make is not the answer, then what is? And DO NOT say petition it. Because if you petition it they will still be around for weeks possibly months after you petition it supplying the market with ill gotten ores and ice. Which is very bad for you if you happen to actually be a real player that is in that trade. Killing them is the only logical thing to do because not only will they eventually get banned, but they won't do as much damage as they possibly could to the market while they are still around. EVE was supposed to be about policing your own. Not a WOW-like clone where we say hey, he's an ISK seller lets petition him and then move on. This is what people fail to realize. This is the reason suicide ganking isn't just completely wiped from the game. Slowly though you people are crying more and more and sure enough CCP is listening to you fools. Changing things that only need to be slightly adjusted into full out nerfs. Just look at some of the recent changes. It's all heavy fisted nerf hammers. While I agree that the nano nerf was needed I do also agree that it was very heavy fisted. While I agree that concord should not provide insurance to concorded ships, it's heavy fisted. Hell, my buddy just got ganked in a freighter not long ago. Did I feel sorry for him for losing 6 bil worth of stuff. YES. At the same time though all I thought of next was maybe he should of had more logistics with him. EVE/CCP provide us the space. What we do with it should be up to us. One or two more logi ships repping him could of possibly saved 6 billion isk worth of PoS fuels. He chose to do without and someone else got lucky on his decision. That is EVE. Do I whine and complain when I lose, no because every time I log in I expect to lose. Hell if anything it makes winning so much more enjoyable.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Gnulpie I can't see any reasons why the things the op descibed are bad for eve. Macros provide Eve with cheap minerals. Like it or not, it is a fact and I would like to see who starts whining fist if suddenly the BS prices will double. Besides, since macro running is against the eula you can always petition them Afk miners in industrials. That the op mentions them shows that he has absolutely no clue about mining. Their contribution to the mineral market is zero. Mission running while being in npc corp. How is that hurting Eve? Actually Eve benefits from this because those people have isk which they can (and do) spend on nice shiny things. The only thing I can see from the op is a whine that he cannot any longer kill defenceless miners in 50+ milion isk ships with his almost free caracal. But it was never meant to be this way. Go, try some real pvp instead! OK, lets start with the obvious first. You have a BPO that is worked way past perfect, many older players have just such a BPO. Now you also have these macros out there selling minerals at cut-throat prices letting people with less than perfect BPOS produce ships and lower the price of them dramatically. This is where industrialists suffer. Macro miners and AFK hauler miners all add up in this equation to bringing down your personal profits when you play it straight. Lets take this a step further, suppose one of them has an over perfect BPO and now they are using all these extra minerals to produce ships at a much lower than cost BS. While this might be great for you macro using mission runners it defies all of EVEs market principals. The other point you bring up is mission runners. Have you ever ran level 4 missions for a week straight and then repossessed all the crap drops that you get from them? Let me explain this to you slowly so you know exactly what I am talking about. Now in a weeks time if I play 4-5 hours a day and do nothing but mission ***** level 4 missions I can get exactly enough minerals to make 4 ravens and 11-13 scorpions depending on how many rogue drone missions I receive. This is all without perfect refine. With perfect refine I could probably make another scorpion. This doesn't even count how much money I get from salvaging the wrecks that there are. You know what I really don't care, I'm just trying to show the rest of the playerbase how it really is. If you want EVE to be another WOW, NOW WITH SPACESHIPS, fine. I will still be here though ganking your hulks, your faction fit ravens and your empty freighters. Because honestly, I do kill people for the lulz. I love to just see things blow up. I have the means to make more isk and I will use it just to see you go BOOM.

Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Ulcha Ghanis suicide gank, my thoughts (for what its worth..) put simply, the whole theory of it sucks. sucide gank = loose ship to gain nice loots from poor suck that you just wtfpwnd. that 'poor suck' could well be someone like me, i spend a good 50 mins to 3 hours running a good L4, salvage it and think "yay mah wallet is going to get bigger!" but on the way back to sell off my newly aquired loot i get ganked... so my hours or work all blown the hell up in like 2 mins of utter hair-loss-inducing 'why me' suicide gank. Now some will say ok, so whats wrong with that, -It isnt fair.. i spend A LOOOONG time earning my isk.. why should my hours of game time be all for nought if i get chosen as a gank target? and some will say; Eve isnt supposed to be completely 'Fair' -Ok but why should those that use a suicide gank gain more isk (for their game time) than the poor sucks they Asplode? surely there should be the same level of 'game commitment' for all.. and to address another point that i've seen raised.. yes i run L4's in highsec... for the exact same reasons as i state above, L4's are time consuming and a little dull at times, why should we (the carebears) loose out on our work? all we wanna do is zoom about in our funky space ships and shoot at NPC's. I wanted to make a lengthier post and try to explain myself more, but i am currently running a L4, in highsec. Maybe you could join a player corp that will do all the behind the scenes things, and even possibly lend to your DPS in the mission. I'm sorry but if it takes you over 50 mins to run any Lv.4 mission you fail at doing it. With me playing 2 characters and my buddy coming along for the ride the most any level 4 mission has taken me is 40 mins. And that is with salvaging and looting all wrecks. On a multi stage mission.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 12:28:00 - [12] Edited by: Schalac on 07/08/2008 12:32:59 You know, the more I keep this topic alive the more I see all of the factions come out and protest their disgust for this change. The thing that strikes me the most though is the fact that no one has attacked my posts more than once and proved me wrong twice. I lay myself out there and people respond, I give a rebuttal and there is never a follow up. I do believe that after 15 years of internet posting failures I scored a win with this thread. Thank you, thank you... no really, please stop clapping EDIT: And not only did I score a slight win in my internet infamy. I also spawned at least 2 threads to steal my title, and 3-4 more to follow in my footsteps. I think I'll drink a beer to that. Cheers mate.

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