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The Monk
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Posted - 2004.06.01 09:20:00 -
[1]
Edited by: The Monk on 01/06/2004 09:22:25
I'm curious with all these changes I have been reading about once they are implimented wont it make cruisers totaly usless??? Missiles are my biggest concern here. Give me reasons against my current oppinion.
Moved to Ships and Modules from General Discussion - Orestes
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Henka
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Posted - 2004.06.01 09:26:00 -
[2]
Well, offcourse they are nerfed. Right now the caracal and BB is the 2 main PVP cruisers, i have NEVER seen a sucessful Thorax or turretbased cruiser in combat (with little or any success).
Why?
Well right now missiles is 10 times, 20 times.. 2000 times better then any turret, and thats NOT balanced.
They are realy not NERFING anything, they are balancing.
Missiles cant stay like they are today, cruisers die in a nano-sec when meeting another cruiser with launchers, and well Its sad that i cant almost-kill a BS with my caracal solo, or that i can kill any cruiser with it without much fear.
And heavies wont be that much weaker, a REAL missile pro can get same damage almost with a heavy missile, and lights aint so bad either (70-85 damage with my L3 light missile user). sure som aspects are not good (insta-hit with heavies on 5k or less range) but should make all fleet engagements less of a missile spam and a tad more turrets.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.06.01 09:36:00 -
[3]
Thorax is a pretty decent PVP ship if you use it as an anti-cruiser/anti-frigate defence ship.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Lermitte
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Posted - 2004.06.01 09:55:00 -
[4]
The missile changes will even the playing field for cruisers and rightly so.
In my blackbird I knew that I could kill pretty much any other cruiser I came up against, it was too easy.
The only challenge was either antother BBird, or a group of curisers.
The main reason is being able to fire off a dozen cruise missiles which do a huge amount of damage in comparison to the ship I was firing from.
As much as I will miss being able to use them I think it will make other cruisers viable again.
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TheNecromancer
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:04:00 -
[5]
let me quess...everybody who think that the nerffing is ok..allrdy have a BS.....
so..I fly a cruiser...and if repeat what some have allrdy said....its nerffing......
why dont just increase the cost of missile by factor 10 or 20...I mean..missiles are a strong weapon..even in RL...1 missile in RL with the right warhead can destroy a minor country....so ...again..
increase the cost...A LOT!!
Nerffing..why do I always join a game when they are nerfing :(
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:19:00 -
[6]
the day people stop comparing things to RL is the day i will commit seppuku and give my corpse to Flatliner for proper stroking.
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The Monk
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:23:00 -
[7]
This is what I mean the changes are all well and good but wont it just force people into BS's again. I cant exactly see people flocking to the smaller ships now.
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thebold
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:27:00 -
[8]
ian example about cruisers: i was flying a blaster thorax with the standard 8x heavy drones 1 med c5l and 1 low armour repairer the caracal i was V he warped in at 15 i got the web on he slammed on his dual mwds launched his drones and was well out of my range and my drones where just toddling behind. his 5 cruise ripped my shields apart and way down to 50% armour on the first volley i had to warp out and repair loosing all my drones.. there was no contest the caracal owned me simply to fast with no power grid usage to him all for his mwds.. after this patch the caracal will be such a weaker ship i will actually be able to pvp against it since heavy missiles will only be available to it means they hit for 150 max x5 every 10 seconds a cruiser v cruiser can manage this damage.. and with the mwd changes means that cruisers probably wouldnĘt like frigs use a mwd no more meaning the way we pvp to frigs and cruisers is going to be like a bs v bs..
after patch a thorax will become a very good ship for cruiser v cruiser and support ship in fleet combat for shooting down frigs and maybe carry lots of scout drones to attack frigs..
also it will give other cruisers like a maller a fighting chance again with its hard hitting ability but lack of ability to soak up the damage
and the rupture will also be significatly weakened i belive that the thorax would be one of the best pvp cruisers to use
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We do the Blowing up thingy |
Henchman Joseph
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:31:00 -
[9]
Getting a BS is much easier than listen to people cry about the totaly unbalanced missileboats.
I whould like a mammoth that have a nuclear powerplant supplying my 2 1400mm howies..
That is about the inbalance the missilelaunchers as they are today represent.
I don't like you |
Henchman Joseph
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:39:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: thebold
ian example about cruisers: i was flying a blaster thorax with the standard 8x heavy drones 1 med c5l and 1 low armour repairer the caracal i was V he warped in at 15 i got the web on he slammed on his dual mwds launched his drones and was well out of my range and my drones where just toddling behind. his 5 cruise ripped my shields apart and way down to 50% armour on the first volley .....
If you had 4 smartbombs 1 power neutrelizer, 1 MWD, 1 webber, 1 warpscrambler , and some cap toys... whouldn't that dude simply have died?
I don't like you |
thebold
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:45:00 -
[11]
o and just thinking of it since missle launchers require no cap but longer fire rate they will have the advantage to put all there cap like a tempest into there defences so a carcal and missle cruiser will be slightly more defensive
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We do the Blowing up thingy |
thebold
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Henchman Joseph
If you had 4 smartbombs 1 power neutrelizer, 1 MWD, 1 webber, 1 warpscrambler , and some cap toys... whouldn't that dude simply have died?
would this not limit the fact i had a blaster'rax? :) intended to attempt pvp with turrets.. damm i must be thick to even use turrets in pvp :¼D
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We do the Blowing up thingy |
Lermitte
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Posted - 2004.06.01 10:59:00 -
[13]
Thats the problem isnt it that to fight a missile boat you have to use missiles back.
In my cruiser I wouldnt even bother jamming them if they only had turrets as I knew my missiles would smash them to bits before they would do anything.
Thats not a sign of good game balancing.
I now fly a Bship but still use the cruiser from time to time and when the non missile ships arent all owning I will definitely use mine again.
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TheNecromancer
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Posted - 2004.06.01 11:01:00 -
[14]
as Henchman Joseph says..I will also just go for BS and just forget there even is a cruiser ship around....
so..goodbye cruisers
PS...I dont like PVP so I really dont care what ship is the best in pvp..
but...cool..that someone does like it :)
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.01 11:07:00 -
[15]
Movin' this to Ships and Modules
Join the IC! |
The Monk
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Posted - 2004.06.01 11:26:00 -
[16]
RIP cruisers I guess. I will get back in my BS once the new patch is in.
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.06.01 11:32:00 -
[17]
Cruisers will still be viable, you will just need a lot more of them to take down a BS. If you have 10 cruisers they will still be able to beat a BS with heavy missiles and the BS won't really be able to hurt them after the sig radius changes are implemented. So if you have a fleet of 5 BS, 10 Cruisers and 20 Frigs the opposing fleet will need similar ammounts of each ship type in order to counter them. Either that or they will need to mount smaller weapons on larger ships.
They want frigs fighting frigs, cruisers fighting cruisers and BS fighting BS. They are also adding MWD effects on sig radius so that Frigs will have to fit ABs and will actually be suseptible to missiles, but only light missiles. The way it is now, newer players are all but forced out of PvP. This will allow newer players into fleet battles where they can fight against other newer players, unable to be one shot killed by larger ships. The advanced players will still have the choice of getting into a smaller ship and fighting other smaller ships. Think about it, killing a frig with another frig will actually be a challenge and not a "who gets lucky with the single cruise missile", we'll actually have some Ace frig pilots out there with something to brag about other than ganking unprepared people.
Give it a chance. At first I was ****ed about the missile changes and actually thought about quitting. Now I have calmed down and am ready to see what happens. PvP right now is just ganking, battles are stupid and uninteresting. If you think camping a gate with 20 ships that can down a single battleship in 30 seconds is "fighting" then you're an idiot. Fleet actions will be fun instead of having a thirty-ship gank squad that moves from gate to gate looking for targets but never finding anything other than loan unprepared people.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Lermitte
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Posted - 2004.06.01 12:00:00 -
[18]
I think it will be far better.
I dont think it will kill cruisers at all, it will make the Thorax etc much more worthwile to fly.
Yes 1 v 1 against a bship it wont be any good but that makes sense.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.06.01 12:19:00 -
[19]
The problem is not Cruiser vs Cruiser Balancing. Cruiser vs Cruiser needed very little tweaking
The problem is Cruiser vs BS or Frig Balancing.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.06.01 12:31:00 -
[20]
Well, with the balance changes, I for one will be climbing back into my cruiser.
Right now, flying a cruiser, especially a non-missile one is suicide in PvP.
Twice I've had a rupture ripped apart by combinations of cruise missile carrying frigates and interceptors.
The only way people are fighting in cruisers now is to set them up like frigates - dual mwd or battleship abs, missiles and warp scrambling or stasis webs.
With balanced missiles, a cruiser will stand a chance of surviving and fighting back at frigates. Sure, frigate and interceptor pilots will have to work harder and form bigger groups to do the same damage, but that's the trade off for flying cheap ships.
With the changes players will be able to explore more ways to combat frigates and frigates will come into the role they were supposed to - scouting parties, fleet support and hitting supply lines.
With balance changes, you can bet I'm going to be testing my autocannons and artilleries against those frigates, rather than fitting missiles launchers and massives abs and playing kestrel wannabe.
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.06.01 14:31:00 -
[21]
I know this was talked about before but if they do change the tracking of drones it will help with balance a lot I think. If heavy drone's tracking made them only effective against BS, medium drone's tracking effective asgainst BS and cruisers and light drone's tracking effective against BS, cruisers and frigs.
It will also help with cruiser v cruiser balance aswell cos with these nerfs to missiles the Thorax is gonna be perhaps too strong in it's class especially when backed up aswell with a bay full of heavies that rip other cruisers apart and if/when they make changes to drones it will help a lot IMO...
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Damajink
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Posted - 2004.06.01 14:36:00 -
[22]
In my opinion, these changes will cause cruisers to be utterly useless for fleet combat at least. The only cruisers you will see at all will be Blackbirds with Sensor Boosters, dampening from 100km+ range, and Ruptures fitted purely for speed for warp scrambling (sure, these are predominately the cruisers used right now, but they will become rarer). At least now, cruisers have some worthwhile damage output. After the patch, cruisers will not have enough speed, strength or now damage output to be a worthwhile PvP ship. They die too easily, they aren't fast enough, and now they can't deal enough damage. In my opinion, this patch will make cruisers even more useless.
I suppose Thorax could be used as an anti-frigate ship, but if everyone ditches their frigates because of MWD nerf, then this will have no place in a fleet.
Not to mention cruisers are usually one of the first targets chosen, simply because of the fact they have little to no survivability.
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alar1c
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Posted - 2004.06.01 19:23:00 -
[23]
Well I think the changes will be a good thing.
My question is, When will we see these changes on Traq? Is there a dev blg or other offical statement about a time frame for this change?
Be nice to know when to need start building Frigs 
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Therax Anrak
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Posted - 2004.06.02 02:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Damajink
After the patch, cruisers will not have enough speed, strength or now damage output to be a worthwhile PvP ship. They die too easily, they aren't fast enough, and now they can't deal enough damage. In my opinion, this patch will make cruisers even more useless.
Why does everyone neglect the changes to tracking? Half the point is to make sure that smaller ships like cruisers are more survivable against battleships. Here is a quote from an actual Chaos test with the tracking changes in place.
Originally by: Parallax Error
Next up was the same Apoc fitting with dual heavy beams (no tracking mods) against an Omen with heavy pulse lasers. The Omen could hold a stable orbit at 5km and was hitting for good hits upwards, the dual heavy beams however were constantly missing. I think I managed to score one scratch for 11 damage in about 3 minutes of firing. This pattern continued until out to 20km when I started to get scratches to light hits consitantly. 30km produced scratches to good. At all these ranges the Omen was maintaining a 200m/s transversal speed. It is worth noting though that i kept firing when the Omen moved from 15km to 20km orbits, during that period the transversal speed dropped to under 50m/s and I scored repeated good hits.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=78262
Now, if an Omen moving at 200m/s (no MWD or anything) is essentially unhittable at 20km with dual heavy pulses. Just think of a pair of Blasterax's with ABs closing in on a Mega equipped with his 425mm's (which have much worse tracking than the dual heavy beams above), webbing, scrambling, and orbiting at 30km or even more, while the 425mm's miss constantly. On top of that, a couple of cruisers will actually have the firepower and durability to destroy the battleship's defending drones, unlike gun frigates.
There are more factors to these changes than just removing cruises and torps from cruisers, and I don't think we can really judge what will happen to balance until we have a chance to play with the changes in their entirety.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2004.06.02 05:13:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 02/06/2004 05:14:10
Quote:
Why does everyone neglect the changes to tracking? Half the point is to make sure that smaller ships like cruisers are more survivable against battleships. Here is a quote from an actual Chaos test with the tracking changes in place.
I didn't specifically see him mention turrets either .. I think most peoples main concern still (unless I missed something in the last couple days) is that missiles (ie cruise) are being made a lot faster/bit more damaging beyond what they already were .. but the agility changes neccessary to stop them from hitting frigs/cruisers smaller than they are intended to are apparently being delayed to the big patch after the next one .. so frigs/cruisers = deadmeat to battleships (I'm still not entirely convinced a caracel with heavys wont still be one of the top cruisers out there for that matter .. at least vs other cruisers .. they'l still be capable of what close to 200x5 per volley?)
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Tandar
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Posted - 2004.06.02 23:14:00 -
[26]
Personally i'm flying a rupture and concider BBs a very small threat, although maybe its because i have 3 heavies strapped on as well and am equiped to either destroy or outrun missiles
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.06.02 23:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: The Monk
Edited by: The Monk on 01/06/2004 09:22:25
I'm curious with all these changes I have been reading about once they are implimented wont it make cruisers totaly usless??? Missiles are my biggest concern here. Give me reasons against my current oppinion.
Moved to Ships and Modules from General Discussion - Orestes
Cruisers are already useless and have been for some time. The only cruiser worth flying is the Blackbird because of its 6 med slots and EW capability. Everything else has been pretty worthless since the game started.
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2004.06.02 23:54:00 -
[28]
The easiest way to combat missle boats atm in TQ is speed and long range weapons or missiles.
Any cruiser with 2 MWD, engaged just for one burst each, setup with max recharge rate in mind, and flying at 45 degree angles to the ship firing missiles will do very well.
You will out run the missiles, stay with in firing range and be able to attack easily while they reload.
Also try ECM on non conventinal EW ships, like the Thorax and Vexor, since no lock/no missiles fired. Most peeps try to go against BB's and find out they are jammed and got cruise/torps heading at them.
Most peeps in BB's and Scorps almost never install ECCM devices.
So a Vexor 2 -6 ECM devices, one 20km range warp scramb, one stasis web or MWD in med slots and signal amps in all low slots will have you chewing up missiles boats with ease
Just my 2 cents worth :)
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2004.06.03 00:12:00 -
[29]
Thoraxes will be the only cruisers that can do anything to battleships after the patch. You can still use BB's for EW, but Thoraxes will be the only cruisers that can deal enough damage to put a dent in a battleship. Pretty silly.
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Sulyana Baiur
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Posted - 2004.06.04 06:50:00 -
[30]
Do you think the changes will mean I will see a ship that's NOT a caldari ship in combat anywhere?
I swear, I've never actually seen an Amarr ship in combat, or anything but a Rupture. oh wait... I think I might have seen a tempest once... but it was out of the corner of my eye and it might have been a gate...
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