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Is my clone me?

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Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.08 20:44:00 - [31] Edited by: Janu Hull on 08/08/2008 20:44:55 The greatest loss of "self" would be in the transition to the first clone from your original body. The one you were born with, accumulated the majority of your experience with, that came with all the scars of life lived outside the pod. Once you're adapted to the concept of the body as simply a convenient vessel (Informorph Psychology) for the conscious mind, and that the body you know the bulk of your waking hours is a multimillion ton hulk of tritanium and steel, then your sense of self becomes less physically anchored to the flesh, and you get on with your life. I imagine the pseudo-immortality of cloning resurrection would create a sense of detachment that would be unnerving to your average meatbag, but then again, the rewards are worth the loss of a measure of what makes you human. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.08 20:52:00 - [32] I think the pertinent question here is in fact: Are you your clone? SKUNK
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.08 20:57:00 - [33] I was pretty upset I lost my bellybutton there for a while. Killed while being offline, stupid bugfix biting me in the ass... Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.09 00:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Kyra Felann It kind of is you. It's not just someone else with your memories as a lot of people seem to think. Your conciousness is transferred to a new body, not just your memories. Think about it. If right now a person exactly like you was created with all of your memories and everything, would you be ok with dying because there is a person out there that's exactly like you in every way? No, because it's not you. But if your actual consciousness (which is more an active process rather than a collection of memories) were to be transferred, it would be you. But, wouldn't creating an exact copy of you, with your exact same memories, just be copying your actual consciousness? So, it is your actual consciousness, right up until the point of separation (or creation of the new consciousness). Blow your mind with this: Theseus' paradox and consider it's actually close to possible in real life, what with advances in artificial and replacement tissues.
Rusalka Renoir Gallente Renoir Mining and Hauling	Posted - 2008.08.09 01:52:00 - [35] Face it, we're all just Cylons. Happily, I think I'm a #6 model.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.09 02:20:00 - [36] Originally by: Grim Mercy But, wouldn't creating an exact copy of you, with your exact same memories, just be copying your actual consciousness? So, it is your actual consciousness, right up until the point of separation (or creation of the new consciousness). Blow your mind with this: Theseus' paradox and consider it's actually close to possible in real life, what with advances in artificial and replacement tissues. If right now, an exact copy of you was created, but you continued to be alive, you would still be you. There would just be another person who was just like you with the same memories. But they wouldn't be you. They might think they were you, but they wouldn't be. They would be an exact copy of you. Your consciousness would not have been transferred. Memories are not consciousness. What if someone were to lose all their memories? Are they suddenly not themselves or a non-person? What if somehow they have false memories? What if your memories could be backed up and transferred to a computer? That wouldn't be you either, just a program that thought it was you. However, if your brain were to be replaced neuron by neuron with electronic or nano-tech ecquivalents, you would still be you, because your consciousness would have remained intact. And yes, I'm familiar with the concept of the Ship of Theseus and also the fact that the human body is completely replaced on a cellular level after a certain number of years. I say consciousness is what defines self and if your consciousness is intact, then the fact that all the cells in your body have been replaced means as little as your entire body being replaced all at once if you are transferred to a clone. Your earlier post indicates you don't understand how clones in Eve work. The exact state of a person's mind including the state of each neuron is copied at the exact moment of death and is copied across the FTL comm network, frozen in a state of mid-thought, to the clone brain instantaneously, thus transferring the consciousness seemingly uninterrupted. Until the capsuleer transfers to the clone, the clone's brain is basically blank and inactive. Just backing up memories into another body wouldn't do any more than leaving an exact copy of you at some point in your life behind after your death. You'd still be dead, but there'd be a person just like a past version of you alive somewhere.
kryptteacher	Posted - 2008.08.09 02:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Rusalka Renoir Face it, we're all just Cylons. Happily, I think I'm a #6 model. im the 5th! woot! youll never guess!
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.09 03:17:00 - [38] Edited by: DaemonBarber on 09/08/2008 03:17:38 http://xkcd.com/220/
Tate Aoko Gryphon Dreaming	Posted - 2008.08.09 03:21:00 - [39] The only solution is to find your corpse and eat it, then you will have a little 'you' in the new clone.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.09 03:35:00 - [40] Edited by: DubanFP on 09/08/2008 03:39:51 Ok picture this. What if your thoughts and memories were instantly transfered from one body to perfect clone of you. This time however nobody every told you and nothing tipped you off. You would never know it. Would it matter if you were living in a different body even if it was identical to the last? It wouldn't matter to you because you're still you as far as you're concerned. The only thing that changes is that you're aware that your body is different. What truely makes you yourself is the memories, life experiences, and thoughts that make up your being. Those are all transported intact to a new body. Now you may be more comfortable in the body you currently inhabit but in the end it's your life experiences that make you you. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.

Ekscalybur Caldari Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.09 03:48:00 - [41] Originally by: Kyra Felann It kind of is you. It's not just someone else with your memories as a lot of people seem to think. Your conciousness is transferred to a new body, not just your memories. Think about it. If right now a person exactly like you was created with all of your memories and everything, would you be ok with dying because there is a person out there that's exactly like you in every way? No, because it's not you. But if your actual consciousness (which is more an active process rather than a collection of memories) were to be transferred, it would be you. His consciousness doesn't go anywhere. It gets "faxed" to the clone. It gets scanned, and a copy of it is imprinted on/in the clone.
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.09 03:51:00 - [42] there is an idea in philosophy which translated from my language comes out as momentarism, (no idea what the actual word is in english, this is littreal translation from my language) anyhow, it states that you, as you, only exist in a moment, and that in the next moment its not you anymore, but someone almost the same with all your memories. death, by this theory, is therefore simply an event which stops "your" line of moments. This theory is also based on the fact that it is memories which define who we are. if you chose to believe this theory you have nothing to worry about, as when you get blown up, "your" line of moments will not stop, as they will be able to continue as your clone. NOTE: this does not save you from your current problem, just explains that this problem is going on all the time anyway, so you have nothing to worry about
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2008.08.09 04:08:00 - [43] Your clone is not you...... You are actually flying around in your pod in this guys body... -=^=-
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.09 04:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: Grim Mercy But, wouldn't creating an exact copy of you, with your exact same memories, just be copying your actual consciousness? So, it is your actual consciousness, right up until the point of separation (or creation of the new consciousness). Blow your mind with this: Theseus' paradox and consider it's actually close to possible in real life, what with advances in artificial and replacement tissues. If right now, an exact copy of you was created, but you continued to be alive, you would still be you. There would just be another person who was just like you with the same memories. But they wouldn't be you. They might think they were you, but they wouldn't be. They would be an exact copy of you. Your consciousness would not have been transferred. Memories are not consciousness. What if someone were to lose all their memories? Are they suddenly not themselves or a non-person? What if somehow they have false memories? What if your memories could be backed up and transferred to a computer? That wouldn't be you either, just a program that thought it was you. However, if your brain were to be replaced neuron by neuron with electronic or nano-tech ecquivalents, you would still be you, because your consciousness would have remained intact. And yes, I'm familiar with the concept of the Ship of Theseus and also the fact that the human body is completely replaced on a cellular level after a certain number of years. I say consciousness is what defines self and if your consciousness is intact, then the fact that all the cells in your body have been replaced means as little as your entire body being replaced all at once if you are transferred to a clone. Your earlier post indicates you don't understand how clones in Eve work. The exact state of a person's mind including the state of each neuron is copied at the exact moment of death and is copied across the FTL comm network, frozen in a state of mid-thought, to the clone brain instantaneously, thus transferring the consciousness seemingly uninterrupted. Until the capsuleer transfers to the clone, the clone's brain is basically blank and inactive. Just backing up memories into another body wouldn't do any more than leaving an exact copy of you at some point in your life behind after your death. You'd still be dead, but there'd be a person just like a past version of you alive somewhere. What you're talking about here, for lack of a better word, is a soul. That is a theological debate, and even if CCP allowed one of those here, that is something I will never get into on a forum of any kind, let alone this one.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta.	Posted - 2008.08.09 04:52:00 - [45] Originally by: hall monitor I'm spending some quality time plying the galaxy and some hot shot decides to blow my frigate up. Fine he had 1 billion SP's so I was toast, Then before I could say "aunt jemima's microwave french toast; he podded me. I had a clone. Went through the process and I'm back in my ship and all was well except for one problem: I REALIZED I WASN'T ME. This really wrecked the game for me at that point because I'm role-playing out there. I suddenly realized that yes, the clone is a clone of me, but the REAL me blew up out there in space...that wrecked brain was me ...SO I DIED and this clone was resurected and it's not me! I feel strangely odd in a sort of out-of-body way and frankly when I play the game now I feel I'm losing touch with reality. After all this time I realize that I am gone. There must be a way around this. Any ideas? Please please help me. I believe there are a few chronicles that can help you understand how the podding thing works, and how "pod pilots" are immortal but not in the we keep the same body immortal.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.09 04:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Grim Mercy That is a theological debate, and even if CCP allowed one of those here, that is something I will never get into on a forum of any kind, let alone this one. Don't know what you're talking about. It's politics that aren't allowed. Yes there are dim bulbs but EVE's population has some of the brightest and deepest people around. Hell theological debates are very common in the ootp section of the forums. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.09 05:00:00 - [47] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Grim Mercy That is a theological debate, and even if CCP allowed one of those here, that is something I will never get into on a forum of any kind, let alone this one. Don't know what you're talking about. It's politics that aren't allowed. Yes there are dim bulbs but EVE's population has some of the brightest and deepest people around. Hell theological debates are very common in the ootp section of the forums. Yeah, well, I'm drunk... so anything I say can't be used against me in a court of Forum.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.09 05:38:00 - [48] Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/08/2008 05:38:08 I jump clones out of my original body for rp reasons, so my original body is still hanging out somewhere :) p.s.(did hall monitor just make a good thread?) Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
Praleon Gallente Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.08.09 08:51:00 - [49] Edited by: Praleon on 09/08/2008 08:55:09 Interesting question, I've pondered on it many times... The whole thing boils down to your actual consciousness, I believe... Some would argue that "a person" is the collection of experiences, memories, and behaviors that person had, coupled with his or her body, and that's it... and, from the outside, that's very true... But to the cloned individual, if his original body and brain are destroyed, he is in fact, dead and gone, experiences death, the afterlife, or lack thereof. In medical science, consciousness is believed to be originated from the neo-cortex. I am not 100% familiar with the process by which cloning works in EVE... but, in order for your "character" to not actually experience consciousness concluding "death", something (electrical energy, a physical chunk, a chemical reaction, I don't know, I don't think anyone does) from your neo-cortex would probably have to make it back to your clone at the instant of death... without that, your clone isn't you unless you bring in some kind of metaphysical instant "soul" teleportation routine. The interesting thing to note, to bring you back on track for RP issues, is, that your Clone would actually, likely, not even feel that his consciousness was fresh and new, he'd only know it because he can reason that he just stepped out of a clone vat, but, for all intents and purposes, he'd probably remember going to the medical facility, signing some papers, going through a scanning process, and then waking up in a vat. Another interesting question is what if your neo-cortex only, with no memories/etc, could be transplanted directly into say, a serial killer. Ta-da, you are a serial killer named Randy, with absolutely no memory of your previous life, and all the impulses, memories, and delusions of the person you've been transplanted into, but, it's still YOUR consciousness. Strange stuff to think about, if it's even possible, maybe our neo-cortex has a strong influence on how our neural pathways are even formed, I don't know, not a brain surgeon...maybe not. Maybe "You" as "Randy" would slowly start to pick up nuances of your old self and stop being a serial killer... maybe you just are that new guy forever and it has no influence. I really wish I were a mad scientist capable of finding out for myself sometimes :). Very interesting question, which may have more pertinence in the next 20 to 100 years of reality than we can even venture to guess. Praleon CEO Judgement Klan Corporation
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.09 09:20:00 - [50] Edited by: Sokratesz on 09/08/2008 09:22:09 According to battleclinic i've been podded 4 times but then again i don't pvp much on this char. To be honest the whole clone business is quite unbelievable, i mean, technically you would have to have contact with your clone every time you get a new skill to 'update it'. If they arrange all the atoms in your clone in the same way as in your own body, yes it wold be the same guy, but not the 'same'. We will not walk in fear of one another.

Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.08.09 09:39:00 - [51] I usually compare it to sleeping. I cannot be sure when I go to bed that the actual ME will wake up tomorrow instead of a "copy"(or rather that it really is ME waking up instead of a new counciessness). On the other hand, does it matter? There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.09 10:06:00 - [52] The thing about cloning i dont get, is what if you were really muscly or fat or something. Would the body you get be some kind of strange "Mediocre" body? Because obviously either of those traits are not inherently genetic. Say you had an operation when you were young, like having appendix removed or webbed feet. You both of things things suddenly reapear once you were cloned? As both are DNA based.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.08.09 10:26:00 - [53] You are permanently exchanging matter of your body, every breath, ever meal, ever dump, will exchange matter of your 'old self'. Yet you still consider you to be same you even though after years most of your body is no longer made up of the same matter anymore. Just consider the clone a 'full body replacement'. Old matter gets discarded, new matter is acquired. You are still yourself. If you belief in a soul, just assume, immaterial as a soul is, that it'll follow you around wherever you go, no matter how you got there. Brain scan transfer is just another means of traveling. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.09 10:34:00 - [54] I wonder if tehre's a way of blocking the cloning signals getting back to the body? Surely it has to be some sort of carrier wave and a major one at that. If someone in EVE could create a field that stop all telemetry from body to clone they could feck up a lot of things.
Captain Falcord Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.08.09 10:34:00 - [55] Have you guys watched a film called "The Prestige", about magicians? One of the protagonists has to clone himself every day and kill his former self for a magic trick... It's creepy. ---<---@ JackFalcord
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.08.09 10:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Rhanna Khurin I wonder if tehre's a way of blocking the cloning signals getting back to the body? Surely it has to be some sort of carrier wave and a major one at that. If someone in EVE could create a field that stop all telemetry from body to clone they could feck up a lot of things. As far as I know the data transfer is done with a sub-space transmission. It's instantaneous and cannot be tampered with or blocked, at least with empire technology. There has been one incident though where it is suspected that the transfer data was modified mid transmission, which would indicate higher than empire technology.... -------- Ideas for: Mining
Eve Spair Caldari Black Mesa	Posted - 2008.08.09 10:47:00 - [57] http://www.eve-online.com/background/cloning/ Just pointing out a relevant article. Only been podded one time. No problem, I just see it as a kind of instant transportation, just like clone jumping.
Eve Spair Caldari Black Mesa	Posted - 2008.08.09 10:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Rhanna Khurin I wonder if tehre's a way of blocking the cloning signals getting back to the body? Surely it has to be some sort of carrier wave and a major one at that. If someone in EVE could create a field that stop all telemetry from body to clone they could feck up a lot of things. http://www.eve-online.com/background/communication/ Again, read it for info on FTL transmissions. They rely in quantum mechanics. There is no "transmission in space" as you know it. Information is transferred instantly between two transmission devices that are linked on a quantum level.
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.08.09 11:49:00 - [59] Edited by: Ioci on 09/08/2008 11:50:24 That's not your wallet either then!!!! Better give it to me, for safe keeping, untill the rightfull owner shows up... Add on: I have been podded... Alot. All 3 of my jump clones actually..
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.09 12:19:00 - [60] Sometimes a clone is just a clone, and time spent with cats is never wasted. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box



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