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Is my clone me?

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Ringo Jeicha Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.09 12:42:00 - [61] And just THAT is why you should train infomorph psychology! --- Braaaiiinnnsssssssssss
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.09 14:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Grim Mercy What you're talking about here, for lack of a better word, is a soul. That is a theological debate, and even if CCP allowed one of those here, that is something I will never get into on a forum of any kind, let alone this one. No, I'm not. I mentioned nothing metaphysical or magical or religious at any point in my post.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.09 14:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Praleon The whole thing boils down to your actual consciousness, I believe... Some would argue that "a person" is the collection of experiences, memories, and behaviors that person had, coupled with his or her body, and that's it... and, from the outside, that's very true... But to the cloned individual, if his original body and brain are destroyed, he is in fact, dead and gone, experiences death, the afterlife, or lack thereof. In medical science, consciousness is believed to be originated from the neo-cortex. I am not 100% familiar with the process by which cloning works in EVE... but, in order for your "character" to not actually experience consciousness concluding "death", something (electrical energy, a physical chunk, a chemical reaction, I don't know, I don't think anyone does) from your neo-cortex would probably have to make it back to your clone at the instant of death... without that, your clone isn't you unless you bring in some kind of metaphysical instant "soul" teleportation routine. The interesting thing to note, to bring you back on track for RP issues, is, that your Clone would actually, likely, not even feel that his consciousness was fresh and new, he'd only know it because he can reason that he just stepped out of a clone vat, but, for all intents and purposes, he'd probably remember going to the medical facility, signing some papers, going through a scanning process, and then waking up in a vat. Another interesting question is what if your neo-cortex only, with no memories/etc, could be transplanted directly into say, a serial killer. Ta-da, you are a serial killer named Randy, with absolutely no memory of your previous life, and all the impulses, memories, and delusions of the person you've been transplanted into, but, it's still YOUR consciousness. Strange stuff to think about, if it's even possible, maybe our neo-cortex has a strong influence on how our neural pathways are even formed, I don't know, not a brain surgeon...maybe not. Maybe "You" as "Randy" would slowly start to pick up nuances of your old self and stop being a serial killer... maybe you just are that new guy forever and it has no influence. I really wish I were a mad scientist capable of finding out for myself sometimes :). I'm glad someone seems to understand the difference between consciousness and memories. You bring up some interesting points. Read the cloning scientific article. Basically it copies every neuron and its state at one instant, freezes it, and transfers it to a new body. That is as close to consciousness transfer as I think you can get transferred over distance. Since the way your particular pattern of neurons is set up and the pattern of firing probably makes up your consciousness, taking an exact snapshot and transferring it instantaneously should in theory transfer your consciousness intact. I guess it's still debatable whether it's really you or not, but it's certainly better than just copying your memories to a new copy of your brain, which is what most people here seem to think happens.
Karentaki Gallente Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2008.08.09 14:46:00 - [64] Originally by: hall monitor Originally by: Jimer Lins He may not be you, but he's just as incoherent as the original. Yes I understand but even if I have the personality of a used soap dish, it still does not solve my role-playing conundrum. It's like I'm stuck in russel-space trying to figure out if the set of all sets that don't contain themselves, contains itself. This may be the most intelligent thing ever said in general discussion. ============= RE: The suicide nerf Originally by: agent apple I believe I can safely speak for many of us when I say, Dear Devs, Go Back to WOW
Ordais	Posted - 2008.08.09 16:03:00 - [65] Well, its not you, end of the story. The new clone IS YOU, but YOU are not the new CLONE. Take a moment to think about it, its a quite simple concept.
Taius Pax	Posted - 2008.08.09 16:19:00 - [66] Edited by: Taius Pax on 09/08/2008 16:20:27 Originally by: hall monitor I'm spending some quality time plying the galaxy and some hot shot decides to blow my frigate up. Fine he had 1 billion SP's so I was toast, Then before I could say "aunt jemima's microwave french toast; he podded me. I had a clone. Went through the process and I'm back in my ship and all was well except for one problem: I REALIZED I WASN'T ME. This really wrecked the game for me at that point because I'm role-playing out there. I suddenly realized that yes, the clone is a clone of me, but the REAL me blew up out there in space...that wrecked brain was me ...SO I DIED and this clone was resurected and it's not me! I feel strangely odd in a sort of out-of-body way and frankly when I play the game now I feel I'm losing touch with reality. After all this time I realize that I am gone. There must be a way around this. Any ideas? Please please help me. What do you mean? Your consciousness was transfered to your clone by equipment in your pod. Also, it's probably better to spend those few moments in your pod looking for the warp command than trying to say "aunt jemima's microwave french toast". It could save your life. (or at least save you from the existential delima you currently face)
The Economist Logically Consistent	Posted - 2008.08.09 16:21:00 - [67] Edited by: The Economist on 09/08/2008 16:25:18 Define real. What makes you you? CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes) Who the hell are they going to represent???
hall monitor	Posted - 2008.08.09 19:38:00 - [68] Edited by: hall monitor on 09/08/2008 19:42:06 Edited by: hall monitor on 09/08/2008 19:41:01 Edited by: hall monitor on 09/08/2008 19:40:27 Edited by: hall monitor on 09/08/2008 19:39:58 Originally by: The Economist Edited by: The Economist on 09/08/2008 16:25:18 Define real. What makes you you? I believe you would have great difficulty proving there is a self. My own inclination is that,what one calls the self is ones experience of life; it is the experience which is discernable not the integrity of separateness. It is true we are all born with various constitutions which perhaps influence our successes and failures through lifes journey, but it is the journey which you use to define yourself. In this sense one might say, context defines. I suppose the question would beg another; are we free individuals? I would argue in the negative on this also unless ofcourse you want to believe that the laws of physics are "supernaturally" countermanded. This would also present many difficulties.
Roast Lamb	Posted - 2008.08.09 20:18:00 - [69] Think about this, you are about to die and you are sent to the cloaning facility as a electronic signal. However your pod makes it to warp 0.000000002 seconds after the scan and there are now 2 of you. One day you are jumping from system to system and notice yourself going the other way!.
Cotique Cabalette Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.09 21:11:00 - [70] Originally by: Roast Lamb Think about this, you are about to die and you are sent to the cloaning facility as a electronic signal. However your pod makes it to warp 0.000000002 seconds after the scan and there are now 2 of you. One day you are jumping from system to system and notice yourself going the other way!. As for me, this is quite beutiful idea, sir.

Dharmic Vision Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.08.09 23:33:00 - [71] The scientific journals also speak of psychological problems incurred by capsuleer pilots. They are probably caused by existential wranglings to problems with no real solutions, such as this. By the way, I didn't seem to find anything that said the mental problems were actually solved, so I would suggest that by the standards of most Eve populations we are insane.
Darklorden Blades Of EVE DENIED ACCESS	Posted - 2008.08.10 01:45:00 - [72] You need to deduct those memories of ever being killed. Your clone only knows up and until the moment that you cloned yourself. How the skill transfer works is a mystery to me. - - - - - -= Hunger is the perfect motivator for those who are lazy by nature =- -= It is nice to be important, but it is more important to be nice =-
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.10 02:00:00 - [73] You think that's air you're breathing? Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Praleon Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.11 20:58:00 - [74] "Think about this, you are about to die and you are sent to the cloaning facility as a electronic signal. However your pod makes it to warp 0.000000002 seconds after the scan and there are now 2 of you." I don't think you'd survive this because I believe the way the "sci-fi" is written in the cloning science, part of copying your consciousness actually kills your old brain's ability to function, whether it survives or not, if your new clone wakes up, your old one is left without a consciousness... so, I guess you might wake up and see your old pod floating by, but it has your old body and brain in a persistent vegetative state in it. Which would be entirely creepy to find. Praleon CEO Judgement Klan Corporation
Brujo Loco Amarr Brujeria Teologica	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:53:00 - [75] As a RP'er I shared those same feelings, until Jump Clones came out. When that happened I decided to perma-stick my ORIGINAL body in an unknown remote station to wich I will never ever go back or jump back. So I began living in my second or third body (and fourth and on an on)and when podded I awake in the body of a clone, keeping the real original body of "me" safe. That assures me that no matter how many times Im podded the real "me" still exists, at least in the flesh. Viva VENEZUELA!!! Archipelago Theory
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:12:00 - [76] Originally by: Darklorden You need to deduct those memories of ever being killed. Your clone only knows up and until the moment that you cloned yourself. How the skill transfer works is a mystery to me. Try to read up how cloning works in eve before speaking... you never scan your brain at a station... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:22:00 - [77] Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 11/08/2008 22:22:52 I used to be me, +5.5 and all that, you know the good guy. Then something went wrong (right?) and I'm now in QUAM ... Clones do have their advantages and TBH, who cares who I was before I joined QUAM --
ThaMa Gebir Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:33:00 - [78] Edited by: ThaMa Gebir on 12/08/2008 02:33:46 Originally by: Rhanna Khurin I wonder if tehre's a way of blocking the cloning signals getting back to the body? Surely it has to be some sort of carrier wave and a major one at that. If someone in EVE could create a field that stop all telemetry from body to clone they could feck up a lot of things. Been done... ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:32:00 - [79] Originally by: Akita T First, see edit. Second, that's how the RP goes anyway, the moment your pod gets breached, a forceful scanning beam almost instantly records and transmits your "brain data" to a cloning facility... the process is destructive for the brain, but you no longer care about it anyway, since if pod is breached, you're about to die anyway. The real RP question is why you can't simply send the signal to an arbitrary number of clones. Even before jumpclones this was a RP issue. Also, you'd think there would be some sort of jammer that would cause perma-death by blocking the signal. Originally by: Kyra Felann If right now, an exact copy of you was created, but you continued to be alive, you would still be you. There would just be another person who was just like you with the same memories. But they wouldn't be you. They might think they were you, but they wouldn't be. They would be an exact copy of you. Your consciousness would not have been transferred. Memories are not consciousness. Your consciousness would have been copied. They would experience the world in a way very similar (and maybe identical) to the way you saw it, but you would probably diverge somewhat if you experienced slightly different things. Of course the two minds will be distinct and can't communicate, but there would be nothing inferior or initially different about the copy's consciousness/mind/etc.
Drak Nijoba	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:21:00 - [80] Originally by: Akita T No, no, you got it all wrong ! "Clones are people two" Clones aren't human they're sansha's slaves.

Vuxacha VTECHS	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:01:00 - [81] Aren't we constantly losing pieces of our atoms and gaining pieces? We consume food because we are always losing pieces of ourselves. So what are we?
X4N4X	Posted - 2008.08.12 06:29:00 - [82] 1 billons SP's?? fascinating....
mercyonman	Posted - 2008.08.12 06:33:00 - [83] Originally by: hall monitor I'm spending some quality time plying the galaxy and some hot shot decides to blow my frigate up. Fine he had 1 billion SP's so I was toast, Then before I could say "aunt jemima's microwave french toast; he podded me. I had a clone. Went through the process and I'm back in my ship and all was well except for one problem: I REALIZED I WASN'T ME. This really wrecked the game for me at that point because I'm role-playing out there. I suddenly realized that yes, the clone is a clone of me, but the REAL me blew up out there in space...that wrecked brain was me ...SO I DIED and this clone was resurected and it's not me! I feel strangely odd in a sort of out-of-body way and frankly when I play the game now I feel I'm losing touch with reality. After all this time I realize that I am gone. There must be a way around this. Any ideas? Please please help me. your stupid just think about it, it will eat at you
Primnproper	Posted - 2008.08.12 10:35:00 - [84] Originally by: hall monitor I had a clone. Went through the process and I'm back in my ship and all was well except for one problem: I REALIZED I WASN'T ME. This really wrecked the game for me at that point because I'm role-playing out there. I suddenly realized that yes, the clone is a clone of me, but the REAL me blew up out there in space...that wrecked brain was me ...SO I DIED and this clone was resurected and it's not me! I feel strangely odd in a sort of out-of-body way and frankly when I play the game now I feel I'm losing touch with reality. After all this time I realize that I am gone. There must be a way around this. Any ideas? Please please help me. I gave this some thought a while back and the only acceptable way round it i can see is to setup a jump clone b4 your first podded and leave your original body in station from then on, that way although the you flying your ship might not be you, the original you is still safely tucked up in a cloning tube somewhere so you will still exist....
Revolution Rising	Posted - 2008.08.12 12:13:00 - [85] Originally by: hall monitor Some would suggest that our brains are not us...I would disagree but I suppose it's a philosophical issue. Anyway your idea is sufficient for me. The "frozen pattern" would be your collective cosciousness but until sensory organs were re-applied you would be in a conscious but imprisoned hell. We are more than the sum of our parts. Unless you live in the Amarr empire somewhere where they are buying kidneys on the street corner for a few thousand isk. In which case you probably are willing to do things as if we were the sum of our parts. As to the clones, well... it's a copy of you that steals YOU out of YOU and then becomes him. Then he gets a ship that is also not yours anymore, and goes about being YOU. Wether you think YOU is some part of your brain or some other part of defined or undefined you, that would be the part that HE now IS. Hope that helped.
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.12 12:29:00 - [86] Originally by: Lothros Andastar only 57th? ****ING CAREBEAR Im still in my first body -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Dotard Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.08.12 12:51:00 - [87] Originally by: Revolution Rising We are more than the sum of our parts. No. We are nothing more than the sum of our parts. In RL as well as our RP virtual lives. It's a tough ti++y said the kitty, but the milk is still sweet. ---------------
Glassback Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.12 13:03:00 - [88] Originally by: hall monitor I'm spending some quality time plying the galaxy and some hot shot decides to blow my frigate up. Fine he had 1 billion SP's so I was toast, Then before I could say "aunt jemima's microwave french toast; he podded me. I had a clone. Went through the process and I'm back in my ship and all was well except for one problem: I REALIZED I WASN'T ME. This really wrecked the game for me at that point because I'm role-playing out there. I suddenly realized that yes, the clone is a clone of me, but the REAL me blew up out there in space...that wrecked brain was me ...SO I DIED and this clone was resurected and it's not me! I feel strangely odd in a sort of out-of-body way and frankly when I play the game now I feel I'm losing touch with reality. After all this time I realize that I am gone. There must be a way around this. Any ideas? Please please help me. Yup, to quote the Novel. You just an echo of your original self. LinkedIn
Luna Lee SuperVixens	Posted - 2008.08.12 13:37:00 - [89] I have my pvp clones made to look like jessica alba. Gives me something to do while I'm camping.
Ven Li Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.12 14:13:00 - [90] Remember one thing grasshopper. There is no clone YouÆre basically killing each other to see whoÆs got the better imaginary Fr



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