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Spider Silva
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Posted - 2008.08.08 17:15:00 -
[1]
im a few months from both skill wise but i cant decide what to save for, which one will do the most damage? or is it about the same?
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2008.08.08 18:07:00 -
[2]
Exact same damage, however you can salvage a lot quicker in a Paladin.
Thing about the Nightmare is it needs deadspace gear to make it really effective, where T2 gear works just fine with the Paladin. Nightmare also gets you noticed more. In the Paladin, you might be mistaken for flying an Apoc and not get suicide ganked for it.
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Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.08 18:43:00 -
[3]
Paladin's cheaper overall, Nightmare's easier to fit.
Paladin is better against Bloods and Sansha, Nightmare is better against Rogue drones.
They are both meh against most others, but Nightmare is slightly less bad against Angels.
You can easily mission and loot/salvage in Paladin at the same time, it's a bit harder but still possible in the Nightmare.
Ideally, you'd go with Golem, Nightmare and Paladin, pick whatever ship is most suitable for the mission.
Overall effectiveness, assuming equal skill levels, Golem is best, with Paladin and Nightmare better in some, but much worse in others.
_
THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.08.08 18:55:00 -
[4]
Nightmare has a tracking bonus and it's easy to fit tachs, TE's and dmg mods on it. Much harder to do that on the Paladin. Tachs are better then Pulses in 90% of missions imo.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2008.08.08 19:02:00 -
[5]
Tracking Bonus = Better hits = MOAR DAMAGE!!! = Faster missions. Nightmare is better but its VERY CLOSE, the Paladin is a damn nice ship. I say whatever one you think looks the best.
BTW the NIGHTMARE IS FREAKING VERTICAL!!!
***The tears of those who fail to adapt sustain me. |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.08 19:12:00 -
[6]
Basically, the gist is that the Nightmare is better when it comes to sheer firepower. But beware that it's slower and will put up a greatly inferior tank. And, clearly, the Golem outperforms both of them as a mission ship, just because NPCs can't deal with missiles, and because it can choose its damage types.
On a more aesthetic note, the Paladin is nice and pretty, while both the other ships look like heaps of boxes, pipes and crap.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.08.08 19:25:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 08/08/2008 19:27:05
 Originally by: Aleus Stygian
And, clearly, the Golem outperforms both of them as a mission ship, just because NPCs can't deal with missiles, and because it can choose its damage types.
The Golem doesn't outperform them at all. For EM weak rats there is no better ship then the Nightmare. Pally/'Mare will finish most Amarr missions significantly faster then the Golem will. And even for Gone Berserk (EoM, Weak to Kin/EM), I've yet to read or hear about anyone doing it faster then my Nightmare. I know my 1200dps Golly can't do it faster, or at least I've been unable to, the ranges are too unsuitable for it.
The fact that 'Mare/Pally aren't great against Angels and Guri doesn't validate a statement like "Golem outperforms as a mission ship". Hmpf.
Heh, even on looks we disagree. Nightmare is one of the coolest ships in the game, while the Pally/'Poc looks a bit odd, like a hasty sketch that accidentally kept it's form.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.08 23:06:00 -
[8]
The web bonus on the Pally strikes me as a bit strange. If something ends up being close enough to web in a laser boat then you're doing something wrong imo, especially with tachys. Plus, it's not like you'd ever use a Pally in anger in PvP (would you?)
Nightmare is an easier progression from Caldari ships (shield tanker, Caldari BS pre-req), Paladin is a better all-rounded and easier to get into if you've come from an armour tanking background.
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Anhammerad
Nearly Feared
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Posted - 2008.08.10 10:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Exact same damage, however you can salvage a lot quicker in a Paladin.
Wrong. Nightmare shield tanks and you can fit 3x damage mods in the lows. My Nightmare does 900dps, my Paladin does 600.
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Thing about the Nightmare is it needs deadspace gear to make it really effective, where T2 gear works just fine with the Paladin.
I'm flying my nightmare with a T2 fit and it works fine.
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Nightmare also gets you noticed more. In the Paladin, you might be mistaken for flying an Apoc and not get suicide ganked for it.
This is true, though I can't imagine anyone suicide ganking you for a few T2 mods.
To the OP:
I had the same dilema, decided to go for the nightmare because it was vertical and I haven't looked back since. As much fitting as you could possibly want (Tachs with no fitting mods, which the tracking bonus makes viable). I run missions faster now than I ever have which means that I can do more pvp yay.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.08.10 11:05:00 -
[10]
Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 10/08/2008 11:05:07
Originally by: Anhammerad
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Exact same damage, however you can salvage a lot quicker in a Paladin.
Wrong. Nightmare shield tanks and you can fit 3x damage mods in the lows. My Nightmare does 900dps, my Paladin does 600.
Then you're doing it wrong. It is perfectly possible to have a cap-stable 4-slot tank, 3-slot gank setup, giving you the exact same theoretical damage as the Nightmare.
However, to the OP, I have recently switched from a Paladin (after flying it since it came out) to a Nightmare. And my answer is simple. The Nightmare. Every. Single. Time. The damage is utterly astounding, and far higher than the Paladin. That's why I said 'theoretically' the same damage. The extra tracking means you'll do better hits more often, which increases the effective DPS over that of the Paladin. Yes you could fit the Paladin with a tracking comp, but that takes away a slot.
The only drawback is the inability to salvage as effectively when in the middle of a mission, but by focussing purely on crushing the opposition (which you do quicker, remember) and then getting a highly effective salvage ship (like the Hurricane), then you'll probably still do missions quicker.
That's my opinion, and unlike most EFT warriors who comment on these threads, I have actually flown both now.
--
These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.08.10 11:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Yes you could fit the Paladin with a tracking comp, but that takes away a slot.
Mine is fitted with two tracking computers actually, works like a charm~
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Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.10 12:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 10/08/2008 11:05:07
Yes you could fit the Paladin with a tracking comp, but that takes away a slot.
JFYI: med slots on PvE gunboats were ment exactly for this 
But I surely agree Nightmare is better overall if we are talking about pure combat capabilities.
---
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.10 20:39:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Naomi Wildfire on 10/08/2008 20:41:18
Nightmare, definetly. More damage, even if its not the most, but you can fit 4 Heat Sinks with a proper fitting.
Only thing i miss is the Tractor bonus and the cargo, but anyway, the Nightmare is the king of pve.
A golem sucks, thats my opinion. I sold mine some time after i bought it and bought the Nightmare, best choice i've done so far.
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Kulmid
The Elear
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.10 21:06:00 -
[14]
ISK/hour ratio will be highest with Paladin due to the ability to salvage at the same time. But the nightmare will probably complete more missions faster.
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7shining7one7
Don Rico's Massive Rainbow Storage
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Posted - 2008.08.10 22:02:00 -
[15]
Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 10/08/2008 22:05:23
i can't fly a paladin yet, but i'm skilling to do just that, i have a very good understanding of it though.
the skillpath for the nightmare is.. basically.. a nightmare.. weither you come from amarr skillpath with armor tankage and have to go shield tank, or weither you are coming from caldari and have to specialize for large t2 lasers, probably better off coming from caldari spec cause of shield skills and the dmg bonus for caldari bs V, at any rate.. it takes f'ing ages, unless you been here for those ages and allready have it skilled.. then it's just nice obviously and ppl just need to stfu and skill up etc. etc. :oldschooler: rant.. rant rant rant..:oldschooler:
with a tracking comp it seems to have pretty similar damage to the nightmare but the pro's say the nightmare has most actual dps in the most usual fits, so that's probably how it is
so .. as far as i see it.. the whole pally vs nightmare is a question of... SKILLS..
do you allready have caldari bs V and good shield tanking skills aswell as t2 lasers, and do you not mind salvaging with a separate ship? then pick the nightmare if you can stand the look of it (personally i think it's butt ugly)
if you don't.. then fgs pick the paladin, don't waste your isk untill you got the above... the dmg difference is nigh marginal, it can loot and salvage eminently, and it's purdy and shiny as a bonus <3
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IceCream Man
Caldari
Aslord Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.10 22:37:00 -
[16]
i found this setup is best for the nightmare pve
high
4 faction tach (for the cap usage), can switch for t2 megapulse if you want, 2 whatever
mid
t2 xl-booster, 3 t2 hardener, 3 t2 cap recharger
low
2 t2 flux coils, 3 faction heat sinks
2 t1 ccc, 1 t2 ccc
permatank with guns firing with excellence skill (or lower crystals to gamma or x-ray)
if you want more tank switch a recharger for an amp and a heat sink for a flux coil.
if you really rich get a crystal set and +5 implants
i also fly the paladin, but i found that its tank lacking in some missions.
p.s. if you can fly these ship, why would you waste your time looting and salvaging; just get a new mission.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.11 01:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: IceCream Man
i found this setup is best for the nightmare pve
high
4 faction tach (for the cap usage), can switch for t2 megapulse if you want, 2 whatever
mid
t2 xl-booster, 3 t2 hardener, 3 t2 cap recharger
low
2 t2 flux coils, 3 faction heat sinks
2 t1 ccc, 1 t2 ccc
permatank with guns firing with excellence skill (or lower crystals to gamma or x-ray)
if you want more tank switch a recharger for an amp and a heat sink for a flux coil.
if you really rich get a crystal set and +5 implants
i also fly the paladin, but i found that its tank lacking in some missions.
p.s. if you can fly these ship, why would you waste your time looting and salvaging; just get a new mission.
You are using 8 slots just for cap regen. Keep the rigs but switch to 4x hardeners, t2 booster, t2 boost amp, t2/electrochem cap booster in mids, and 3x HS, t2 tracking enhancer, t2 suitcase in lows. You will only need more cap regen when you are running the booster, and most missions I never even turn mine on. I've never run out of 800 charges on a mission and I've done them all. My setup will do more damage, (better quality hits with the TE) and tank more than yours unless you upgrade to a gist/pith booster or have a crystal set.
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Kalana Eargon
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Posted - 2008.08.11 02:46:00 -
[18]
Well these are the things I would take into account when choosing between these two ships. Here are the pros of each ship.
Paladin:
1) Better armor tank*
2) Higher kinetic and explosive resists
3) Better capacitor capacity and recharge time*
4) Costs a few hundred million less*
5) Faster
6) Almost twice as much cargo (half a *)
7) Better targeting range
Nightmare:
1) Has 3 rigs slots*
2) Better shield tank*
3) Better tracking*
4) Lower signature radius
5) Higher sensor strength*
6) More Powergrid and CPU*
7) Better scan resolution
8) Has significantly more shield HP*
9) Looks cooler********************
I put a * near all the ones that are major differences.
So now-
Nightmare: 6* + Infinite* for looks
Paladin: 3.5*
Therefore Nightmare is a better ship.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.11 02:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kalana Eargon
Well these are the things I would take into account when choosing between these two ships. Here are the pros of each ship.
Paladin:
1) Better armor tank*
2) Higher kinetic and explosive resists
3) Better capacitor capacity and recharge time*
4) Costs a few hundred million less*
5) Faster
6) Almost twice as much cargo (half a *)
7) Better targeting range
Nightmare:
1) Has 3 rigs slots*
2) Better shield tank*
3) Better tracking*
4) Lower signature radius
5) Higher sensor strength*
6) More Powergrid and CPU*
7) Better scan resolution
8) Has significantly more shield HP*
9) Looks cooler********************
I put a * near all the ones that are major differences.
So now-
Nightmare: 6* + Infinite* for looks
Paladin: 3.5*
Therefore Nightmare is a better ship.
TBH, I think the Paladin looks better.... If they removed all the extraneous spikes the Nightmare would be a much better-looking ship.
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IceCream Man
Caldari
Aslord Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.11 03:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Originally by: IceCream Man
i found this setup is best for the nightmare pve
high
4 faction tach (for the cap usage), can switch for t2 megapulse if you want, 2 whatever
mid
t2 xl-booster, 3 t2 hardener, 3 t2 cap recharger
low
2 t2 flux coils, 3 faction heat sinks
2 t1 ccc, 1 t2 ccc
permatank with guns firing with excellence skill (or lower crystals to gamma or x-ray)
if you want more tank switch a recharger for an amp and a heat sink for a flux coil.
if you really rich get a crystal set and +5 implants
i also fly the paladin, but i found that its tank lacking in some missions.
p.s. if you can fly these ship, why would you waste your time looting and salvaging; just get a new mission.
You are using 8 slots just for cap regen. Keep the rigs but switch to 4x hardeners, t2 booster, t2 boost amp, t2/electrochem cap booster in mids, and 3x HS, t2 tracking enhancer, t2 suitcase in lows. You will only need more cap regen when you are running the booster, and most missions I never even turn mine on. I've never run out of 800 charges on a mission and I've done them all. My setup will do more damage, (better quality hits with the TE) and tank more than yours unless you upgrade to a gist/pith booster or have a crystal set.
for the comfort of a permatank, i gave up a little more dps and resist.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Avenging United
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Posted - 2008.08.11 04:06:00 -
[21]
Cap boosters in a mission is pretty dumb. You need the cargo for all the loot.
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7shining7one7
Don Rico's Massive Rainbow Storage
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Posted - 2008.08.11 04:17:00 -
[22]
Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 11/08/2008 04:18:08
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Cap boosters in a mission is pretty dumb. You need the cargo for all the loot.
cap recharger II's all the way for missions (if you are armor tanking) imo. boosters is for pvp, or am i being too sturdy about it.. that's how i see it, pve = regen, pvp = fast injects.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.11 05:18:00 -
[23]
Permatanking is overrated, the Nightmare just doesn't need it.
I could see some logic in permatanking a CNR/Raven simply because it's the sort of ship you can just park in a mission and fire missiles off every which way while you make a sandwich, but you need to be thinking about optimal & transversal with the Nightmare (or Paladin) which = being at the keyboard.
Also, to be honest, the Nightmare melts stuff so quickly that you'll be taking damage for a lot less time anyway.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.11 06:55:00 -
[24]
Personally I recently went from Nightmare to Paladin. Financially this was a good step, as looting and salvaging goes immeasurably faster. In no way can the better gank of the Nightmare compete with that.
But for pure combat performance, I miss the tracking bonus and the shieldtank. A lot. I have heard people state that the tracking difference is not noticeable, that is a lie. Especially against tracking disrupting Bloods in Blockade, it is VERY noticeable, but even against non-TDers I feel it, mainly in not instapopping every cruiser anymore.
So for pure bounty/LP hunting, the Nightmare is definitely better. But doing that is kinda shooting yourself in the foot, as looting/salvaging correctly yields a lot higher isk/hour than pure mission completion.
And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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IceCream Man
Caldari
Aslord Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.11 07:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Durzel
Permatanking is overrated, the Nightmare just doesn't need it.
I could see some logic in permatanking a CNR/Raven simply because it's the sort of ship you can just park in a mission and fire missiles off every which way while you make a sandwich, but you need to be thinking about optimal & transversal with the Nightmare (or Paladin) which = being at the keyboard.
Also, to be honest, the Nightmare melts stuff so quickly that you'll be taking damage for a lot less time anyway.
permatanking might be overrated, but it doesnt hurt that the nightmare can permatank and gank at the time with mostly t2 stuff
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.11 09:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: IceCream Man
Originally by: Durzel
Permatanking is overrated, the Nightmare just doesn't need it.
I could see some logic in permatanking a CNR/Raven simply because it's the sort of ship you can just park in a mission and fire missiles off every which way while you make a sandwich, but you need to be thinking about optimal & transversal with the Nightmare (or Paladin) which = being at the keyboard.
Also, to be honest, the Nightmare melts stuff so quickly that you'll be taking damage for a lot less time anyway.
permatanking might be overrated, but it doesnt hurt that the nightmare can permatank and gank at the time with mostly t2 stuff
Perhaps, but permatanking won't save you from a suicide gank (if memory serves you got ganked somewhere in a Nightmare didn't you?), and the reason I think permatanking a Nightmare is overrated is because with a gank setup you just don't need it. What's the point of spending any longer in a mission than you have to?
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IceCream Man
Caldari
Aslord Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.11 10:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: IceCream Man
Originally by: Durzel
Permatanking is overrated, the Nightmare just doesn't need it.
I could see some logic in permatanking a CNR/Raven simply because it's the sort of ship you can just park in a mission and fire missiles off every which way while you make a sandwich, but you need to be thinking about optimal & transversal with the Nightmare (or Paladin) which = being at the keyboard.
Also, to be honest, the Nightmare melts stuff so quickly that you'll be taking damage for a lot less time anyway.
permatanking might be overrated, but it doesnt hurt that the nightmare can permatank and gank at the time with mostly t2 stuff
Perhaps, but permatanking won't save you from a suicide gank (if memory serves you got ganked somewhere in a Nightmare didn't you?), and the reason I think permatanking a Nightmare is overrated is because with a gank setup you just don't need it. What's the point of spending any longer in a mission than you have to?
that is true i did gank, but my new permatank nightmare doesnt have anything to really suicide for. and what is you nightmare gank setup always, 4heat sink?
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:26:00 -
[28]
Originally by: IceCream Man
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: IceCream Man
Originally by: Durzel
Permatanking is overrated, the Nightmare just doesn't need it.
I could see some logic in permatanking a CNR/Raven simply because it's the sort of ship you can just park in a mission and fire missiles off every which way while you make a sandwich, but you need to be thinking about optimal & transversal with the Nightmare (or Paladin) which = being at the keyboard.
Also, to be honest, the Nightmare melts stuff so quickly that you'll be taking damage for a lot less time anyway.
permatanking might be overrated, but it doesnt hurt that the nightmare can permatank and gank at the time with mostly t2 stuff
Perhaps, but permatanking won't save you from a suicide gank (if memory serves you got ganked somewhere in a Nightmare didn't you?), and the reason I think permatanking a Nightmare is overrated is because with a gank setup you just don't need it. What's the point of spending any longer in a mission than you have to?
that is true i did gank, but my new permatank nightmare doesnt have anything to really suicide for. and what is you nightmare gank setup always, 4heat sink?
Good point :)
I'd run with a tracking enhancer/computer though - more tracking never hurts, and Tachys can use all the tracking they can get.
Each to their own though I guess.
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.08.11 12:22:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Cap boosters in a mission is pretty dumb. You need the cargo for all the loot.
Looting missions in a 140m/s battleship with at most 2 tractors is even dumber, not to mention the fact that you have a small cargohold to begin with. You come back with a Hurricane or ideally a Paladin salvager/looter.
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Juleko
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Posted - 2008.08.12 09:53:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Juleko on 12/08/2008 09:53:40
For someone who is apparently "a few months from both" ships you're going about it in a strange way, you bought a Draclira's Tachy for 2.4bil not long ago, you've been crying out for more officer tachyons for weeks, and have only just recently been WTB'ing for an officer tracking computer... You sure you're not already in a Nightmare/Paladin and are just wasting our time?
Sounds like its time to warm up the locater agents 
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2008.08.12 10:13:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kalana Eargon
Paladin:
3) Better capacitor capacity and recharge time*
4) Costs a few hundred million less*
6) Almost twice as much cargo (half a *)
to 3) as long as both can run tank/guns/extras the difference is insignificant
to 4) last time i checked the price diffence was only 90mil (720mil Paladin vs 810mil Nightmare)
to 6) true but with the paladin you loot during mission and with the Nightmare ppl loot with a dedicated other ship after the mission is done so the extra cargo doesnt really matter in the comparison.
just my 0.5 isk
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Lang'fin Ger
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Posted - 2008.08.12 11:18:00 -
[32]
I salvage all the BS Wrecks in reasonable range with my nightmare, so the loss cant be that big, also i'll make money faster if i complete the mission faster and start the next one. I think nightmare is best at ISK/hour and mission time.
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