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Solomon XI
Caldari
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.09 09:35:00 -
[1]
CCP,
Presently the Arazu is the most ineffective of all Recon's. In fact, the bonus it gets to sensor dampeners is exactly that of the Celestis. It doesn't have any more DPS than the Celestis. It's sensor-dampening abilities are equal to that of the Celestis.
All it gets is a bonus to warp-disruptor range. However due to the ineffectiveness of the sensor-dampening in it's present form, the bonus to warp-disruptor is not enough to keep it from getting killed by any half-decent pilot.
Sensor dampening on the Arazu needs a significant increase to be in-line with the other force recons. Perhaps this:
+50% bonus to the effectiveness of sensor dampeners
+25% bonus per level to warp-disruptor range.
Sensor dampening needs to be able to knock ships down to a range where the Arazu/Lachesis can warp-scramble them safely from. As it stands, I sensor-dampen someone and warp-scramble them, I am still within their lock-on range in 80% of all cases.
Please look into the Arazu/Lachesis and sensor dampening as a whole. It severely needs a buff.
**Here's to hoping CCP reads this** 
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.09 09:41:00 -
[2]
did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think.
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Montmorency
No Nerdrage
Blue Sun Trust
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Posted - 2008.08.09 16:10:00 -
[3]
Arazu is a great ship.... needs no TLC
Montmorency
CEO of No Nerdrage [NEERD]
Head of Blue Sun Trust [BOOST] |
Malena Panic
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.09 16:40:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think.
It's a short range tackle boat that can't maneuver, tank or DPS, but will (briefly) enjoy infamy at the top of every primary list. Enjoy your suicide ship.
... |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
Solidus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.09 17:11:00 -
[5]
the gallente recons were ok already for picking off belt-ravens; those couldn't chase it down anyway.
with the (faction) scram going 20km at lvl IV
anything usually targeting ~80km ends up below 18km with just 2 rigged dampeners and skills to IV (you'd need 4 damps to pull the same stunt with other recons and their ~140km)
and that's well within antimatter-rail range.
+25% disruption range, i can accept
yes, this force recon doesn't pwn either, but once you are able to dictate the 19km, you're worse than a falcon which, theoretically, can miss a cycle.
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.08.09 18:31:00 -
[6]
Did someone miss the incoming warp disruptor boost?
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.08.09 20:14:00 -
[7]
Exactly.
The Arazu has a serious flaw. It cannot dampen a target effectively. Plus the range on a war-disruptor is... too close to begin with.
The main issue with it though is the sensor dampeners. They need a buff. Specifically, the ships designed to use them (more so the Recons) need a significant buff.
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Tes Quin
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Posted - 2008.08.09 20:45:00 -
[8]
fist off i don't fly the gallente recons, but i have gallente cruisers trained at 5 so i can fly the celesetis.
the arazus description says it gets a bonus to warp disruptors, does that really include the scrams as well (anyone tested this)?
damps in general behave very strangely for their role to bring ppl near to the dampener, in that they have a very short range.
the dps of an arazu is around 210 at 35mk range (halfway reasonable combat range for this ship. i'd even go further as it's not meant to dish out damage, including 2 lights and 3 medium gallente t2 drones, in other words dps setup), every belt ratting lone raven can tank those 210 dps. if you remove the drones you get loltastic 81 dps.
that's fine since recons are e-war ships not dps machines, but currently gallente ewar is broken. the current issues of dampeners and their role on ewar ships is on the list for the next CSM meeting.
--
ccp/isd, ty for the portrait |
Kil'Roy
Minmatar
The Rat Patrol
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Posted - 2008.08.09 21:29:00 -
[9]
Well, if it does have a bonus to scramblers, that should be removed before the speed nerf, otherwise it could put the Rapier out of business.
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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.09 21:44:00 -
[10]
Bonus works on Scrams to. Also Rapier has fare more Web Range that the Arazu has Scram Range -> Dualweb the same effect.
Problem is the Arazu canŠt realy use the Scrams because it canŠt damp Targets at this Ranges effecly(solo). You are in Range of most of the Medium Weapons like HMs, Puls Lasers, AKs with Falloffrigs and any long Range or Large Weapon. In a bigger Fight you will be primay anyway if the enemy noticed your fitting.
Dedicated Damp Ships should have a higher Damp Bonus stop a Target from shooting at them with 2 Damps or 1 at a larger Range, since you canŠt realy fit more than 3 effective(you need MWD, you need a Cap Booster(at least a small one) and a Point to be effective.
----
Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Flawliss
Gallente
Pilots of True Potential
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Posted - 2008.08.10 04:31:00 -
[11]
The main problem of Dampener ships is the range a damp operates doesn't match its job description.
Dampeners scripted as we know has a choice of 2 jobs, Lowering target range or increasing targeting time.. however it is generally expected to do this job with a low optimal range.
Meanwhile an ECM, which if it does get a jam, can do so at an extreamly long range, it all feels very backwards to me, shouldnt Dampeners operate at longer ranges and ecm work at shorter, i'm not saying 200K should be an option for either EWAR.
However even if Both worked at an optimal of 100k it would be good enough for ECM i'd think, and a world of improvement for damps
After a change like this it would be easier to argue if damps dedicated ships really needed more damp strength, as their range would fix that, and to use the disruptor bonus that would be pilots choice, safer from damp range or a bit more dangerous scramming range.
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El Mauru
Amarr
Quantum Industries
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.10 05:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: El Mauru on 10/08/2008 05:21:31
Arazu is totally fine- just don't try to fit tech-2 stuff on it due to the cap they eat.
Its biggest flaw used to be the fact that with everything going a gajillion ms damps didn't really mean anything since you could just fly up to it and the damps would turn useless- it also doesn't really work all too swell with a nano-fit.
Awesome ship when combined with other e-war though and a decent inty-killer. Finally, it is the best tackler/prober combo ingame. :-P
I think after the speed-"NURF" it will do lots better, not only because it gets the bonus to scrambler-range.
-
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Solomon XI
Caldari
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.10 08:50:00 -
[13]
Well keep talking. I like where this is head. We have some good debate going on. Any idea's for improvement to said ship?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.08.10 09:33:00 -
[14]
In order to fix the Arazu it needs to be given two more launcher slots and a +5% damage bonus per level to assault, heavy and heavy assault missile launchers.
This will do many things:
#1, missiles are capless, helping with that issue (which is a big one).
#2, missiles have range, and they don't lose DPS over range, so the Arazu can fight at much longer ranges and still do DPS.
#3, selectable damage type- this makes a *huge* difference in the effective DPS on target when 100% of your DPS is going against the targets weakest resist instead of it's highest.
#4, tracking- with no tracking issues for missiles, the Arazu is free to move around a bit more and not worry about losing DPS.
#5, +10mbit to it's drone bandwidth, +60m3 to it's dronebay. One more medium drone in the air, and the option for two full flights of different medium drones. Come on CCP, where is the 'drone versatility' you've been promising all the Gallente pilots?
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Dzajic
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.10 10:50:00 -
[15]
Additional 2.5% per Recon skill level to Dampener strength, and maybe a bonus to dampener optimal OR falloff. Making it a solo combat ship for pwning ratting Ravens would have its fans, but Id rather have a racial Ewar that is working.
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Karentaki
Gallente
Maximum Yarrage
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Posted - 2008.08.10 11:10:00 -
[16]
Fully supported - I have recently bought and trained for an Arazu, and it's an OK ship, but damps could do with a bit of a boost.
=============
RE: The suicide nerf
Originally by: agent apple
I believe I can safely speak for many of us when I say,
Dear Devs, Go Back to WOW
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Eraggan Sadarr
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.10 17:49:00 -
[17]
I agree, the Arazu needs a look at its damp bonus. I trained for gallente recon before the damps nerf, but as i also fly falcon I saw no reason to fly it after the nerf. Now that is not balance.
Eve Market Scanner |
Karentaki
Gallente
Maximum Yarrage
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Posted - 2008.08.10 19:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Did someone miss the incoming warp disruptor boost?
What boost - that only affects warp SCRAMBLERS
=============
RE: The suicide nerf
Originally by: agent apple
I believe I can safely speak for many of us when I say,
Dear Devs, Go Back to WOW
|
Dzajic
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.10 19:37:00 -
[19]
With 2 rigs, you can push optimal of RSDs to 63km. With mythical "all skills at V" of course. So, 60km, after that... they too become chance based. Optimal + falloff is 150km.
And the new scramblers. First, the speed nerf is so gamebreaking (I'm all for nanonerf, but not this kind of it) it is unlikely it will go true.
Second. WS II gets range of 18km, 21.5 with overheat. The oh so cheap and available domination or republic fleet warp scram has 22.5 net and 27 km range with overheat.
Atm, Huginn can web you from 40km without overheat or faction mods, with those, 78km.
Now, if Arazu isnt in solopwnmobile mode, and is working with gang/fleet, it needs to fit both RSDs and scrams in mids. (lol painters for Huginn as secondary ewar). Ok, you got your target pointed and reduced to his base speed, you or someone else has to web the target to reach effectivnes of a single current web from Huginn.
So to clearly say my point.
TQ now. Rapier and Huginn web you from 40 to 60km without overheat, with single web being 90%, aka, if you are not nanoed you are not moving.
If patch goes true, Arazu and Lachesis will be able to point you and turn off your MWD from less than 25km. Speed effect is ~80% web.
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here'n'there
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Posted - 2008.08.11 14:38:00 -
[20]
18-25km and 40km - you really don see the difference?
btw, this topic is about RSD, and i fully agree with Solomon XI. |
Asume Nosami
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Posted - 2008.08.12 00:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: here'n'there
18-25km and 40km - you really don see the difference?
btw, this topic is about RSD, and i fully agree with Solomon XI.
Glad to know I am not the only person who see's a problem with the RSD's and the Recon's specifically meant to use them. So now that we agree they do need a buff... let's have some good idea's. How could you buff them? What *would* make them effective?
I want to get a good thread going about them for CCP to read. Kind of like the blaster thread.
I think RSD's need to have a 50% boost to their effectiveness (when scripted) as a start. Also I think the Recons should get an additional 5%-10% per level of the Recon skill to their effectiveness. With a minimum of 25% up to 50%. This would put them in line with the other *ewar* (see: Falcon).
Why can't I knock a Rokh down to 5K-10K lock-on range when he's a sniper that has a 250km range? Where-as the Falcon can pretty much permanently jam said Rokh because the Falcon is Moses and can part the red-****ing-sea?
Simple fix in my opinion:
Keep the current sensor dampener effectiveness for all ships not DESIGNED to use sensor-dampeners. Seems fair to me. However...
Presently the Celestis gets a bonus to dampener effectiveness. As does the Arazu/Lachesis. However that bonus is exactly the same. Doesn't seem right, does it?
On that note, what about making RSD-based-Recons (Arazu/Lachesis) a secondary bonus?
Keep the Celestis bonus to RSD's in-tact + give each Recon, an automatic 75% bonus to RSD strength. I can't comment about the Gallente eWar frigate or the Black Op's battleship. I am not sure how either work but their bonuses to RSD's should also be adjusted accordingly. Again if this proved to be over-powered, I am favor of baby-steps to adjust it. But make it useful once again and we can go from there.
Thoughts?
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Solomon XI
Caldari
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 00:33:00 -
[22]
^^^ My alt. Oops.
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.08.12 08:12:00 -
[23]
The 75% bonus automatically to the Arazu/Lachesis may be a little excessive. Maybe a 50% to the ship itself would be better. 
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.08.12 08:32:00 -
[24]
The gallente recons are currently quite weak.
I have both and it's deceiving. Their combat ability is poor and their dampening power quite weak.
But, they are not totally focused on sensor disruption equipment as the caldari are.
The RSD has both heavy flaws and strengths :
-On long range engagement, it could be a pain, but it stays random because of the too short range. Fleets have won fights because of RSDs. With just increased range and not strength, they would have one situation where they are 100% annoying, just as the caldari.
-On short range engagements, they are quite useless... Increasing strength would make them as good as caldari recons even in short range, then it would be unbalanced because of the warp disruption bonus.
So, the new gallente recon role?
It's anti-nano technology, it can scramble nano ships within their attack range and render them useless. And that role is powerful, it may be the best way to make a short range BS a sitting duck, or any mwded ship with cruiser sized weapons.
I think this balances the gallente recons for now. If they are sill useless after the nano changes, it will be again time to talk about it.
--
Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
AshtarDJ
Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2008.08.12 09:44:00 -
[25]
I don't fly gallente so I can't check the values myself, but to be an effective Falcon pilot I need to fill my mids with ECM, fill my lows with Sig Distort Amps and have 2 ECM rigs fitted. That makes the falcon laugthable useless to anything else then ECM. Fair enought....
What if you have 5 damps, 1 point, 2 damping rigs and damping drones in your bay? Can you still tell me that the arazu is useless for its role? or are you just used to fit the arazu the way it was fitted before the damp nerf? (I'm seriously curious, not trying to troll anyone here...)
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murder one
Gallente
Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.08.12 09:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: AshtarDJ
I don't fly gallente so I can't check the values myself, but to be an effective Falcon pilot I need to fill my mids with ECM, fill my lows with Sig Distort Amps and have 2 ECM rigs fitted. That makes the falcon laugthable useless to anything else then ECM. Fair enought....
What if you have 5 damps, 1 point, 2 damping rigs and damping drones in your bay? Can you still tell me that the arazu is useless for its role? or are you just used to fit the arazu the way it was fitted before the damp nerf? (I'm seriously curious, not trying to troll anyone here...)
Yes, the above setup is still useless. Damp drones are stacking nerfed against each other, as are the damps themselves. ECM damp strength rigs are a joke, providing a paltry 5% increase in strength for each rig.
So regardless of what you put on it, the Arazu is still crap.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.12 10:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
In order to fix the Arazu it needs to be given two more launcher slots and a +5% damage bonus per level to assault, heavy and heavy assault missile launchers.
This will do many things:
#1, missiles are capless, helping with that issue (which is a big one).
#2, missiles have range, and they don't lose DPS over range, so the Arazu can fight at much longer ranges and still do DPS.
#3, selectable damage type- this makes a *huge* difference in the effective DPS on target when 100% of your DPS is going against the targets weakest resist instead of it's highest.
#4, tracking- with no tracking issues for missiles, the Arazu is free to move around a bit more and not worry about losing DPS.
#5, +10mbit to it's drone bandwidth, +60m3 to it's dronebay. One more medium drone in the air, and the option for two full flights of different medium drones. Come on CCP, where is the 'drone versatility' you've been promising all the Gallente pilots?
Agree and i want all +5% kin damage bonus to be +5% bonus without dmage type restr. on every caldari ship and want 125m3 dronebay on BS's, 50 on BC class ships and 25 on cruisers too so they could field this drones even if without spare ones.....
sarcasm off
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Dzajic
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:59:00 -
[28]
Arazu isnt the Combat Recon, Lachesis is. If you want to have a ship to pwn nubs by scrambling them and damping them, use Lachesis, cry for CCP to boost its combat abilities, whatever.
Arazu should be a ewar boat primary. And with damps ugly range, it cant do that any good. I mean, it can be nice, but ECM boats are way too better.
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Malena Panic
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
In order to fix the Arazu it needs to be given two more launcher slots and a +5% damage bonus per level to assault, heavy and heavy assault missile launchers [...] +10mbit to it's drone bandwidth, +60m3 to it's dronebay. One more medium drone in the air, and the option for two full flights of different medium drones. Come on CCP, where is the 'drone versatility' you've been promising all the Gallente pilots?
Fantastic changes. This would make the ship very useful within its engagement envelope.
... |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:43:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 12/08/2008 15:43:18
I wish they would remove the warp disruption range bonus and make them pure sensor dampening ships (with additional dampening bonuses).
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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Vladameir Harkenin
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:17:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Vladameir Harkenin on 12/08/2008 16:19:12
Originally by: Dzajic
Arazu isnt the Combat Recon, Lachesis is. If you want to have a ship to pwn nubs by scrambling them and damping them, use Lachesis, cry for CCP to boost its combat abilities, whatever.
Arazu should be a ewar boat primary. And with damps ugly range, it cant do that any good. I mean, it can be nice, but ECM boats are way too better.
I agree with the first and mostly the second. The only problem I have with the second part is range for damps. I'd have no problem with damps at there current range, but it would be nice if the arazu had a 7.5% bonus to damp effectiveness.
Another idea I was having. Swapping the low/mids of the arazu/lach, this way the lach has more lows for a armor tank while the zu would have more mids for ewar but less lows for tanking(maybe do something with grid/cpu if needed). Lach having 50m3 drone bandwidth and 100m3 drone bay would be more combatish imo as well leaving the zu with it's current bay.
I was also thinking dropping the 5% damage to med turrets in exchange for 10% drone damage on the lach. As much as I would like to see the celestis family alive again that idea is probably reaching a little far as it would be stepping into the curses territory.
Some say it's getting boosted with this patch, I say no, taking a lach/zu that close to combat is basically like asking a falcon/rook pilot to warp in 50km from the fight (suicidal). Me personally I always see the warp disrupter as a huggins target painter, it was just there (if the target has 3-4 points on him is it really gonna hurt him to add another...he probably won't care).
I don't think it really matters though, there was a thread a long time ago about the arazu/lach and never had a dev responce and no changes have happened yet. Who knows, maybe a year from now we can finally say "omg, the celestis familiy works again", but until then I'll be in my falcon.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:17:00 -
[32]
Instead of talking about how this system will never get fixed and variations there-of, I want to see some logical idea's on making the Arazu/Lachesis effective once again. Please contribute by helping this thread along in that general direction. If CSM (who are bringing this up at their next meeting I think to begin with) have a good thread to review (same with the Dev's), we're more like to get some changes going to these two ships. 
A couple of good idea's I've read so far:
Quote:
Swap the Arazu/Lachesis slot layouts.
+more dampening power for the Arazu
+more combat prowess for the Lachesis
Drone Bay Increase:
+10 to drone bandwidth
+60m3 to drone-bay
RSD Role Bonus:
Arazu: Standard 50% bonus to all RSD Effects
Lachesis: Standard 50% bonus to all RSD Effects
Arazu: 50% longer range to RSD optimal
Lachesis: 50% longer range to RSD optimal
Sensor Dampening Drones:
Make them non-stacking nerfed. They will be in line with eWAR drones.
Ok. Discuss.
Would they become over-powered?
If so... would this be a good start? And would *baby steps* be an appropriate way to bring the Arazu/Lachesis in line with other Recon's? Do you have any other idea's?
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:59:00 -
[33]
Greetings,
Originally by: Solomon XI
Presently the Arazu is the most ineffective of all Recon's.
The original intent of the RSD nerf was to bring RSD's more into line with ECM, meaning that non specialized ships would no longer be as effective as specialized ships. In theory this should have been a good thing, however something that CCP appears to have forgoton prior to implementing it was that the RSD specialized ships did not get the 20% per level effectiveness bonus that ECM specialized ships got.
Prior to the nerf there was only about a 3% difference in effectiveness between an Arazu with RSDs and a Falcon with RSDs for example, assuming equal skills of course. After the nerf, the difference between that same Arazu and Falcon is about 4%. To be honest a Falcon can actually damp more effectively than an Arazu due to the extra two mid slots, but that is a different story.
Quote:
Sensor dampening on the Arazu needs a significant increase to be in-line with the other force recons. Perhaps this:
+50% bonus to the effectiveness of sensor dampeners
+25% bonus per level to warp-disruptor range.
I don't know that I would go that high, instead I would with something more like 15% effectiveness per level on the RSDs versus the current 5% and leave the warp disruptors as is.
As a semi fair comparison, we will use the Falcon as ECM and the Arazu as RSD. Assuming L4 in all EWar skills and L4 in Recon, the Falcon can eliminate the targeting of 2 Ishtars 100% of the time up to roughly 150KM using Multispec ECM II, or 4 Isthars with Magnetometric ECM II compared to the Arazu, using RSD II, which can reduce the targeting range of 1 Ishtar down to 18KM 100% of the time up to roughly 42KM or 3 Isthar down to 62KM 100% of the time up to roughly 42KM. No rigs, implants or enhancement modules were used in these calculations only range reduction scripts for the RSD II, skill bonuses and ship bonuses.
To make matters worse, the changes being introduce in the speed nerf are such that the many FC's are going to be demanding Arazu's to kill MWD, but due to the current effectiveness of RSDs, the Arazu has to get in so close to use the new MWD scram that it's damps are no longer effective.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:15:00 -
[34]
@ Asno:
Very good read. A lot of good points are made.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.08.12 23:59:00 -
[35]
Double the Celestis bonus? Might be a viable boost to both the Arazu and Lachesis...
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Rassad
Point-Zero
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.08.13 02:45:00 -
[36]
Train Recons to 5 and train the extra sensor damp skills, i feel that it can jam quiet nicely.
It does need to be able to use 5 drones tho.
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here'n'there
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Posted - 2008.08.13 09:30:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Rassad
Train Recons to 5 and train the extra sensor damp skills, i feel that it can jam quiet nicely.
It does need to be able to use 5 drones tho.
*jam* you say?  i'm not sure, but something tells me, that arazu/lachesis wont *jam quiet nicely* ever 
well, i know, you mean *damp* enemy sensors.
first, recon skill doesnt affect dampeners on these ships (+5% to effectiveness per cruiser level), so recon 5 or recon 1 - doesnt matter.
second, i made some testing: arazu with 3 RSD (sensor damps scripts), no rigs, all skills affecting damps level 4 - and target still has 19-20% of it's original sensor lock range.
about drones.. lachesis maybe needs to be able to field 5 drones. arazu - not quite sure..
better boost bonus from +5% to +10% (maybe better, but it may become to overpowered) to RSD. |
Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.13 12:34:00 -
[38]
Yeah. Lachesis is somewhat worthless now and I don't think I've ever seen one actually flown nor can I imagine why you'd want to fly one. It can't fit a non-nano tank and the Celestis line can only affect 1 target at a time unlike the rest of the recon boats that can neutralize 2-3.
I think some of these suggestions might be a bit 'too good' though. I think it'd make a world of difference to up the effectiveness to 10-15% and maybe up the range bonus a bit on the disruptor style weapons so that it can scram out to about 25km without fielding a faction scram. On the Lachesis give it a 100m3 drone bay so it can field potentially 4 heavies and an additional low slot with slightly better powergrid so it can comfortably fit a tank. With the Lachesis its DPS is in line with other ships of its type but its tanking is way off (assuming non-nano fit) and the whole thing about damps is in their current state they can only reasonable affect 1 target at a time whereas other recon ships can affect 2-3. So they need an improvement to effectiveness and the Lachesis specifically needs to tank a bit better.
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Taram Caldar
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:40:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think.
It's a short range tackle boat that can't maneuver, tank or DPS, but will (briefly) enjoy infamy at the top of every primary list. Enjoy your suicide ship.
Short Range?!?!?
With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used.
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Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:46:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think.
It's a short range tackle boat that can't maneuver, tank or DPS, but will (briefly) enjoy infamy at the top of every primary list. Enjoy your suicide ship.
Short Range?!?!?
With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used.
While you caught that she was referring to scramblers, you may not realize why. One of the things the Devs are looking at doing is making scramblers disable MWD. As such, they now have to be looked at on Arazu's as a tactical weapon.
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voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:09:00 -
[41]
Edited by: voogru on 13/08/2008 16:10:19
What are you guys talking about?
The Arazu is a great ship. I buy them off the market from silly people who sell them for less than the mineral cost, then I reprocess them and turn their parts into Falcons.
Free money.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Taram Caldar
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:22:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 13/08/2008 16:26:11
Originally by: Asno Malo
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think.
It's a short range tackle boat that can't maneuver, tank or DPS, but will (briefly) enjoy infamy at the top of every primary list. Enjoy your suicide ship.
Short Range?!?!?
With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used.
While you caught that she was referring to scramblers, you may not realize why. One of the things the Devs are looking at doing is making scramblers disable MWD. As such, they now have to be looked at on Arazu's as a tactical weapon.
No, they don't. The Arazu isn't a short range tackler. People need to stop trying to jam square pegs into round holes. The Arazu/Lachesis are long range tacklers that work in gangs, not solo. Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers (though they can) and there's nothing saying you can't combine them with a command ship running skirmish warfare links and get scramblers out to 40km+ ranges. Combine that with a falcon in the group to handle JAMMING (which is NOT what the lach/arazu are supposed to do) and they are absolutely fine.
Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships. They're not the best solo boats in the world (though with the speed nerfs they'll be MUCH better at it) but they are very useful.
And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you?
There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used).
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Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:54:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
No, they don't. The Arazu isn't a short range tackler. People need to stop trying to jam square pegs into round holes. The Arazu/Lachesis are long range tacklers that work in gangs, not solo. Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers (though they can) and there's nothing saying you can't combine them with a command ship running skirmish warfare links and get scramblers out to 40km+ ranges.
Again, with the Dev's proposed nano nerfs, it will be the FC's demanding that the Arazu's carry the scrams due to the MWD disabling abilities.
Quote:
1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps.
At one time perhaps this was true, however, as of last December's danmp nerf, a single Arazu, Celestis, or Lachesis requires 3 RSD IIs to damp a single target down to roughly 20% of it's normal targeting range, and that is assuming that all 3 RSDs are using the range script, the pilot has Recon IV, and all EWar at IV, and that the pilot can get within 42KM of the sniper.
Quote:
Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process.
Not even close, please read my first post above. With equal skills the Falcon's jamming far exceeds the Arazu's ability to damp and if the Falcon is using race specific jammers, they are near 100%.
Additionally, if by giving up my drones, my Arazu became as effective at damping as the Falcon is at Jamming, I would jump on it in a heartbeat, why? Because the Falcon is just as efficient at 140KM as it is at 50KM, 10KM, and 5KM. Not so with the Arazu. The Arazu is ONLY effective between 20KM and 43KM, and that is against ships with max targeting ranges under 100KM. Once their max range exceeds 100KM, then the range of the Arazu's effectiveness begins to shrink.
Quote:
There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used).
Again, prior to the December nerf, this may have been true, but that nerf hammered the Arazu, Celestis, and Lachesis. Additionally, as I stated above, the Falcon is still within 4% of the effectiveness with damps as the Arazu, though the Arazu is less than 5% of the effectiveness of the Falcon with jams.
And no, the vast majority of people that I talk to simply want their damp effectiveness back to what it was prior to December for the Arazu and Lachesis only. Hmmm, sounds just like the Falcon pilots prior to getting their ECM effectiveness back. ;)
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Lili Lu
Victory Not Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 13/08/2008 16:26:11
Short Range?!?!?
With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used.
While you caught that she was referring to scramblers, you may not realize why. One of the things the Devs are looking at doing is making scramblers disable MWD. As such, they now have to be looked at on Arazu's as a tactical weapon.
No, they don't. The Arazu isn't a short range tackler. People need to stop trying to jam square pegs into round holes. The Arazu/Lachesis are long range tacklers that work in gangs, not solo. Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers (though they can) and there's nothing saying you can't combine them with a command ship running skirmish warfare links and get scramblers out to 40km+ ranges. Combine that with a falcon in the group to handle JAMMING (which is NOT what the lach/arazu are supposed to do) and they are absolutely fine.
Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships. They're not the best solo boats in the world (though with the speed nerfs they'll be MUCH better at it) but they are very useful.
And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you?
There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used).
You overlook the difference on the range of ecm on a falcon and the range of damps on an arazu, that arazu will be jammed before he even gets in range to damp a falcon. And, that falcon will all the while be jamming 2, 3, or 4 other ships as well.
Have you flown an Arazu since the damp nerf? Damps are now the suck even on an Arazu. I might even place them below tracking disruptors and target painters. A falcon can neuter multiple ships with it's mids, an arazu has to use all it's ew available mids to take maybe one ship out of the fight or protect itself.
As for the tackle ability that the Arazu has and the Falcon lacks, have you seen any pvp gangs with multiple Arazus? I haven't but i've seen plenty with multiple Falcons and they are very effective. Other ships frankly do a better job tackling even without the range bonus, and ceptors now get good range on warp disrupt. Not sure if that situation will change with the patch. It may. Regardless, there needs to be some boost to the damp abilities on dedicated damping ships. They are subpar without it, and will continue to be subpar even with the changes to tackling mods.
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here'n'there
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:02:00 -
[45]
Edited by: here''n''there on 13/08/2008 17:04:46
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers
(though they can)
nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp disruptors
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships.
i cant imagine situation where you prefer to use arazu/lachesis instead of falcons.. can you?
Originally by: Taram Caldar
And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage.
falcons can do the same, except their ECM range is *much* longer
Originally by: Taram Caldar
They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam.
they cant. because
1st: ECM has far more optimal then damps. so, to damp falcons, you must be much closer to falcon. falcon can just jam you, while you are trying to fly to falcon.
2nd: 1 RSD will reduse falcon's lock range to 70-80kms. not to effective. you need at least 3 RSD to neutralize 1 falcon. and if falcon is using sensor booster, arazu/lachesis is just useless against it.
Originally by: Taram Caldar
They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure.
3 RSD and target still has 19-20% of it's original lock range. that means - close range ships dont even notice RSD. snipers with sensor boosters will treat you like a minor nuisance.
Originally by: Taram Caldar
If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you?
so, you say that arazu/lachesis is not a short range ship. must operate at 30-40 kms range, right? how can i effective use drones at this range? or deal some dps to target? to do so, you must operate at 10-20 kms. and i willignly give up arazu's drone pay to be as effective as falcon. hell, turrets slots too.
Originally by: Taram Caldar
There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used).
nonsence.. people want them to be at least usable, worth flying. and how do you know, how each ship must be used? divine knowledge?
p.s. sorry for my english |
Podruski
Violent Fury
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:21:00 -
[46]
There is a problem with the arazu.... lets start by comparing it to the falcon. The Falcon is horribly imbalanced at the moment, and unless this is the desired effect of all recons, it needs to be leveled or nerfed.
Falcon vs Arazu:
-ECM Rigs give 10% boost to jammer strength where as dampener rigs get only 5%.
-There is a signal dispertion amplifier, jammers are the only ew which gets this boost module.
-The falcon gets a 20% bonus to the strength of ECM where Arazu gets 5% boost.
-With skills and mods, jammers are like 8 times as effective as the base module where an arazu with skills mods and scripts is less than 4x.
Now to complain and say that this makes the arazu useless and bad would be ill-advised, as the ship is still effective. Although this doesnt mean that it is in line with the effectiveness of a falcon. I think that a balancing of the recons needs to take place. All other recons are forced to deal with 2 different EW bonus while the falcon has one specific purpose. Ok sure, the falcon is not as versatile, but its not like recons are useful in terms of dps anyway.... So either all recons need to be boosted or falcon needs a nerf but as it stands right now, they are horribly imbalanced in terms of effectiveness.
TLC towards arazu or Hate to falcons... either would make me happy.
____________________________________________
Pirating sucks. |
Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Podruski
TLC towards arazu or Hate to falcons... either would make me happy.
Nahh, the Falcon is just about perfect where it is. Now, if you were instead referring to the Scorpion, then I would be right there with you. But yes, the Arazu does need some love and I am not asking much. Simply change the 5% effectiveness to 15% effectiveness and I would be a happy camper.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:04:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships. They're not the best solo boats in the world (though with the speed nerfs they'll be MUCH better at it) but they are very useful.
And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively?
They are able to right now. They can web 2+ ships down by 90% speed quite easily. Pilgrim can split neuts likewise rather effectively.
Originally by: Taram Caldar
1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you?
This whole bit here is you proving you've never flown the damn things. If you think you can damp 3 targets down enough then you're obviously blissfully unaware that a single damp on a target is worthless.
Originally by: Taram Caldar
There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used).
No, I'd like it to be at least marginally useful against more than one enemy, which it currently isn't.
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Taram Caldar
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.14 00:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively?
They are able to right now. They can web 2+ ships down by 90% speed quite easily. Pilgrim can split neuts likewise rather effectively.
Ever tried that? If you try to web two ships both will get away. Period. Also, the whole time you are webbing those two ships they are pounding you into sawdust. A Pilgrim can't split it's neuts either... they're only 12km range. It's also very easy for those ships to move out of range... or just attack the pilgrim from outside it's range... and it's very vulnerable to both drone and missiles.
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Edited to add: This will likely change with the speed nerf but even then they can always double up webbers for the same effect and still get 2 targets slowed compared to 1 with the Arazu/Lachesis.
Have you even been on sisi? You're wrong. Currently on SISI two webs is LESS effective than 1 web is on Tranq... significantly less actually. Split webs? Hardly.
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Taram Caldar
1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage.
This whole bit here is you proving you've never flown the damn things. If you think you can damp 3 targets down enough then you're obviously blissfully unaware that a single damp on a target is worthless.
No, but I fly with pilots who do... Arazu does just fine.. Arazu for the 50km+ warp disruption & reduced targeting range on the target(s) and/or Falcon for the jams so we can close in to get points/webs/neuts on safely. Against 90% of targets we don't even need the falcon. If we don't have a falcon I love the arazu because he can get points from 60k away while I put webs on from 40k away, keeping both of us safe from almost any target we decide to tackle. We've taken MANY targets down with just the two of us...
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Taram Caldar
There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers.
No, I'd like it to be at least marginally useful against more than one enemy, which it currently isn't.
It is. If you have two snipers sitting out at 150km targetting you 1 Arazu can make both of them worthless. Because all the sudden their lock range is 75km and they can't hit us unless they close the distance. Sure it's not going to completely shut down multiple targets but that's not what it does. The Arazu has 3 roles (whereas a Falcon only has 1)....
1) Long range tackle.... Arazu/Lach is the only ship in the game that can tackle as far as it does. This is it's PRIMARY role. At the same time it is immune from any response at that range against any single target... and often against multiple targets... till they close the range.
2) Sensor Dampening.... Against any single target the Arazu/Lach is VERY effective. Sure it's not going to completely incapacitate an enemy but no other ship besides the ECM birds comes close.
3) Damage... Arazu's put out pretty decent damage for a Force Recon... they outdamage both the Rapier and the Falcon.... The Rapier by a little the Falcon by a lot....
(Falcon also has no tank and is slow... Arazu can mount a tank or be nano'd)
If you want to JAM your enemy then fly a falcon. If you want long range tackle with some significant ewar built in, fly a lach/arazu. Speed nerf is going to significantly boost the Arazu/Lach as well... harder to close with them to get under their damp range.
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Taram Caldar
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.14 00:16:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 14/08/2008 00:18:24
Note: I'm not against boosting the Arazu's Damp strength... But we need to make sure we keep it balanced. If you make it too good at dampening you eliminate the role of the Falcon/Rook. As I said... in small gangs that's often already the case... I will fly in a small gang with either an arazu or a falcon... and often I will prefer the arazu because it brings so much more to the table. (overheated warp disruptor to 70km anyone???)
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.14 05:38:00 -
[51]
Friendly poke to thread.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Arana Tellen
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.14 06:00:00 -
[52]
My suggested ships:
Arazu:
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: 80% reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration.
Lachesis:
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 5% bonus to Heavy Missile Launcher and Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire per level.
TBH with a small damp bonus increase these ships become VERY nasty again.
---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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Flawliss
Gallente
Pilots of True Potential
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:17:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Flawliss on 14/08/2008 08:18:14
OK i'll take a stab and putout my Ship bonus/Stats i'd like to see:
Lachesis:
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 10% Bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener range per level.
100m3 drone bay, 50MBit drone control
Arazu:
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: 200-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration.
My reasoning. This gives a bonus in effectiveness to both Boats, but gives the range bonus to the Non cloaking ship.
This allows the Lachesis to operate at longer ranges, but still be counterable from long range or tackle since it is unable to cloak, forcing it to either stay on the field and deal with tackle or warp out, and thus relinquish its EWAR to the fight. It also removes the split bonus system (could always change the Hyrbid to missile if preferable)
The arazu gets a Strength bonus to dampeners, but sacrifices the range bonus since it has the option to cloak and has the option of surprise, i thought this would be a better idea then sacrificeing its disrupt range, as it would lower its dual Ewar use, which i kinda like
EDIT: Asfar as slots, which i forgot to discuss, i would like to see the Lach get better low slots even if you had to sack a mid, though i think sacking a Hi slot for a low would be a fair change aswell
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murder one
Gallente
Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:25:00 -
[54]
Everyone keeps talking about 60km+ disruptor range with max skilled Arazus/Lachs. Just how many Arazu/Lach pilots fly around with one or more best in game faction disruptors fit on their ships? Damn few I'd imagine.
In order for the Arazu to be as effective as a Falcon, it would have to damp a battleship down to 4-5km lock range with *one damp*, while doing so from 230km away in order to be somewhat comparable to the Falcon. Not that I'm advocating that the Arazu needs to be that powerful, it just demonstrates how broken Falcons are at the moment.
The other day I fit a BS with 3x best named ECCM (Dominix, mids were point, injector, 3x Conjunctive Mag. ECCM) and was still jammed solid by a Falcon sitting at 235km from me. That's broken.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
murder one
Gallente
Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.08.14 08:28:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Flawliss
Edited by: Flawliss on 14/08/2008 08:18:14
OK i'll take a stab and putout my Ship bonus/Stats i'd like to see:
Lachesis:
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 10% Bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener range per level.
100m3 drone bay, 50MBit drone control
Arazu:
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: 200-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration.
My reasoning. This gives a bonus in effectiveness to both Boats, but gives the range bonus to the Non cloaking ship.
This allows the Lachesis to operate at longer ranges, but still be counterable from long range or tackle since it is unable to cloak, forcing it to either stay on the field and deal with tackle or warp out, and thus relinquish its EWAR to the fight. It also removes the split bonus system (could always change the Hyrbid to missile if preferable)
The arazu gets a Strength bonus to dampeners, but sacrifices the range bonus since it has the option to cloak and has the option of surprise, i thought this would be a better idea then sacrificeing its disrupt range, as it would lower its dual Ewar use, which i kinda like
EDIT: Asfar as slots, which i forgot to discuss, i would like to see the Lach get better low slots even if you had to sack a mid, though i think sacking a Hi slot for a low would be a fair change aswell
Removing the Lach's missile bonus? I don't think so.
The answer here is to triple the damps base optimal range, dont' worry about optimal bonuses on Gallente recons, and buff the damp strength bonuses for the recons.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.14 11:11:00 -
[56]
I agree. The main issue here is the overall dampening strength on the Arazu and Lachesis in comparison to the Celestis and other, non-specialized ships.
The dedicated RSD Recons need a buff to dampening ability more than anything else. Otherwise, presently, they're fine as they are. Dampening just needs a 50%-75% boost to strength while fitted on the Recon ships. The Gallente ewAF and Black-Op's also need to have their RSD bonuses adjusted appropriately.
So a boost to RSD optimal while fitted on a Recon plus an additional bonus to the strength of RSD's while fitted on a Recon would go a long way to making this ship viable in PvP once again.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
AshtarDJ
Filthy Scum
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 14:23:00 -
[57]
I've been reading the posts on this thread because I'm very curious to know what's gonna happen to the gallente recons, but reading your posts I realizes that most (not all) of you are forgetting about 2 very important details:
1. The new scramber change will kick some life into the arazus/lache's making them VERY important. Specially in smaller gang engagements. That change alone I think will be enough for these ships.
2. Most of you are comparing the gallente recons with falcons and their ECM capabilities. One very important fact here is that the caldari recons only have 1 role, and because of that they get double bonuses for the same role (range and strength). The other 3 race's recons have 2 roles with bonuses for both. If you guys are so keen on getting more range or strength to your RSD's, you should consider giving up the scrambling/disrupting bonus then.
Side note: After CCP nerfed ECM for all ships, ECM was pretty useless on ALL ships, including the caldari ECM boats (appart from the rook). Almost an year after that, CCP booster the ECM ships to what they are today (gave falcons the same bonuses as the rooks, and gave rooks an extra low for more DPS)
|
OneSock
Crown Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 19:03:00 -
[58]
Originally by: AshtarDJ
One very important fact here is that the caldari recons only have 1 role, and because of that they get double bonuses for the same role (range and strength). The other 3 race's recons have 2 roles with bonuses for both. If you guys are so keen on getting more range or strength to your RSD's, you should consider giving up the scrambling/disrupting bonus then.
Well the phrase "Jack of all trades and master of none" springs to mind, so yes it might be a logical step to split bonus. Arazu gets damp bonus and Lache gets scram/disrupt bonus.
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Beltantis Torrence
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 20:57:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 14/08/2008 21:03:32
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 14/08/2008 21:03:00
Originally by: Taram Caldar
...If you have two snipers sitting out at 150km...
Regarding the first bit, if you're solo then the rapier isn't for you but that's true of all recons. They can do solo work but they don't excel at it (nor do many ships really, Eve isn't a game that caters to solo pvp). Point is they can do their job (webbing) on multiple targets very well.
Probably with sniper example above is that you can't reach anywhere close to 150km. So how are you going to do that without getting popped while trying to close the distance or expecting them to wait there while you slow boat cloaked over to them? Just isn't really viable. Lets put it this way, if they had the range to do that @ 150km, they'd be very useful for exactly that but they don't because they need to get into range. So either the damps need to be more effective or have longer range so that you can hit people far enough away that the damp is useful.
Edited to add: So the basic problem is that at the range that you can damp people at, people who are fighting you in that range aren't going to have any issues targeting you with one damp on them. You need all three to make them not able to attack you. The sniper thing is pointless because its useless at doing that, the range isn't long enough to hit snipers. So unless you're against solo people where you can dedicate all your damps to one target they aren't useful at all. Even with the scramming boost they're not incredibly useful since even with the bonus scramming range isn't very far (with faction stuff you're talking bubble distance, making it a very expensive tackler).
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Malena Panic
Veto.
Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 02:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: AshtarDJ
1. The new scramber change will kick some life into the arazus/lache's making them VERY important.
The thread is only two pages long, man, try to keep up :D
An Arazu or Lachesis inside 20km is a dead Arazu or Lachesis. It can't defend itself, can't tank, can't maneuver quickly and can't trade DPS. Nobody's going to want to fly a ship that turns off one MWD at the start of the engagement and then dies.
I mean it looks all exciting and potent but it's not, really.
... |
Flawliss
Gallente
Pilots of True Potential
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 05:46:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Flawliss on 15/08/2008 05:46:33
Originally by: murder one
Removing the Lach's missile bonus? I don't think so.
The answer here is to triple the damps base optimal range, dont' worry about optimal bonuses on Gallente recons, and buff the damp strength bonuses for the recons.
The problem here is that you then give any ship using RSDs a range bonus, which i highly doubt is what the Devs would go for. And I personally don't really think we need a RSD version of a falcon (arazu with loong RSD range)
As far as the missile bonus, I'll admit i am not a big fan of a Split weapon bonus on a primarily EWAR ship. It may be a combat recon, but is a Hyrbid bonus and or a Missile bonus really needed? your not gonna DPS with a Lach infact if your doing RSD ewar with added range, whats the point?
If you prefer missile on the lach then scrap the Hyrbid Bonus either way I dont support split weapon bonuses on a Recon ship when it could really use something more inline with its EWAR Family
|
Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 10:30:00 -
[62]
Friendly bump to keep this topic going. I am actively reading it.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
sliver 0xD
exiles.
The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 13:00:00 -
[63]
Edited by: sliver 0xD on 15/08/2008 13:03:43
well i agree with the main poster.
the arazu is one of the few recons that are not ballanced enough.
vs 1 target the arazu can damp and hold it extreamly well. with the cloak, 52km disrupotor and damps you can hold on to a ship verry nicely.
but in a fleet fight even with 3 or more enemys it goes **** up for the arazu.
your gang mates do not benefit of the long range aprouch and its ability to only damp 1 target with sucses.
i sugested a change months ago that goes as folowign :
% of effect on damps range or reso to extream value like 85% 90%.
and then to counter the over power effect that change by adding the same chance base system as the ecm.
(maybe even based on the sensor strength. could put in some race counters in there liek the caldari have higher ecm strenght)
this will alouw the arazu to be a usefull addition ot a fleet fight. damp more then 1 ships based on the chace system.
this chance system could also improve the pilgrim's tracking disruptor and the rapiers target painter.
---
Somebody needs a hug! |
Asno Malo
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 14:17:00 -
[64]
Originally by: sliver 0xD
i sugested a change months ago that goes as folowign :
% of effect on damps range or reso to extream value like 85% 90%.
and then to counter the over power effect that change by adding the same chance base system as the ecm.
(maybe even based on the sensor strength. could put in some race counters in there liek the caldari have higher ecm strenght)
Perhaps I am one of the few, but I do not want the Arazu to be a RSD version of the Falcon. I don't want the range or the multiple targets of the Falcon, I am simply asking for the Arazu to get a small boost to their damp efficiency, 15% per level vs 5% per level.
Quote:
this chance system could also improve the pilgrim's tracking disruptor and the rapiers target painter.
I would have to heavily disagree on target painters because the painter itself provides no adverse affect, unlike RSD, ECM, and TD.
At the same time, I would also have to disagree with changing TD to chance based for one very simple reason. TD affects only a single class of weapon system (Guns) whereas ECM and RSD affect all weapon systems but one.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 21:09:00 -
[65]
If RSD's were as powerful as ECM, I could agree with the whole chance based idea.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Tes Quin
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 22:33:00 -
[66]
lets not forget the Keres (gallente e-war frig), basically a mini a arazu without the bonus to cyno fields.
here is my take at the ships and their damps:
damps:
- change all ship bonuses to 7,5% damp strength (or general damp strength up to -17%/-17%)
- optimal up to 50km
this would result in effectively dampening snipers, making it the anti snipe weapon that (imho) it was meant to be
arazu:
- 7mids/3lows (swapped with lach)
- 150km max targeting range (+38km)
- +100cap
- 4100ms targeting speed (-400ms)
anti sniper ship, has a good chance to negate falcons if it targets them first and/or if a sensor booster is fitted, still has the cloak and the cyno and has a chance to help with mwd shutdown if it concentrates all damps.
still can't use hybrid guns alongside drones for long due to cap problems.
lachesis:
- 6mids/4lows (swaped with arazu)
- 4300ms targeting speed (-200ms)
- +30m^3 dronebay (i know, does not really fit rhoden, but meh..)
- +200cap
close range oriented, can assist damps with ecm drones, less cap problems than arazu due to missile slots and more base cap, can only negate a falcon if is not targeted first/falcon fits a SB, can be countered by FoF missiles, smartbombs, energy neurtalizers and other drones.
celestis:
- 75km max targeting range (+10km)
- +10m^3 dronebay
- +50cap
small update to the t1 hull to perform on par with damps
keres:
- 10mb/s bandwith (+5)
- 20m^3 dronebay (+10)
- +100%bonus to the effect of sensor boosting modules
OR 53km max locking range (+13km)
basically either damp someone down from adequate ranges, or range tackler with support coming from drones (well, 2 of them with spares)
--
ccp/isd, ty for the portrait |
Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
|
Posted - 2008.08.16 08:22:00 -
[67]
Interesting idea. But I don't see anything mentioned about drone bandwidth? Am I just blind?
Note: Nightly bump.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Andreya
Direct Intent
|
Posted - 2008.08.16 10:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Solomon XI
CCP,
Presently the Arazu is the most ineffective of all Recon's.
wow, ever heard of a pilgrim?
gimme a break
_________________________________________________________
Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
|
Posted - 2008.08.16 11:23:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Andreya
Originally by: Solomon XI
CCP,
Presently the Arazu is the most ineffective of all Recon's.
wow, ever heard of a pilgrim?
gimme a break
Off topic, the Pilgrim isn't so bad. I've seen them do some good thing's... 
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Tes Quin
|
Posted - 2008.08.16 18:43:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Solomon XI
Interesting idea. But I don't see anything mentioned about drone bandwidth? Am I just blind?
Note: Nightly bump.
this is correct, no bandwidth upgrade. the ships' role is to primarily use damps not drones (imho), hence only increased versatility through bigger drone bays.
i also shall do some math to get the bonuses right, maybe some numbers are a bit off, especially the ones on the Keres may not be what i had in mind.
as you can see, i made the arazu a fleet ship with the focus on ewar capabilities (long range & more med-slots) and the lachesis a small gang ship with the focus on being "ganky" (more cap and more tank through more lows)
--
ccp/isd, ty for the portrait |
Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists
|
Posted - 2008.08.16 19:32:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Ruciza on 16/08/2008 19:32:10
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 14/08/2008 21:03:32
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 14/08/2008 21:03:00
Originally by: Taram Caldar
...If you have two snipers sitting out at 150km...
Regarding the first bit, if you're solo then the rapier isn't for you but that's true of all recons. They can do solo work but they don't excel at it (nor do many ships really, Eve isn't a game that caters to solo pvp). Point is they can do their job (webbing) on multiple targets very well.
Probably with sniper example above is that you can't reach anywhere close to 150km. So how are you going to do that without getting popped while trying to close the distance or expecting them to wait there while you slow boat cloaked over to them? Just isn't really viable. Lets put it this way, if they had the range to do that @ 150km, they'd be very useful for exactly that but they don't because they need to get into range. So either the damps need to be more effective or have longer range so that you can hit people far enough away that the damp is useful.
Edited to add: So the basic problem is that at the range that you can damp people at, people who are fighting you in that range aren't going to have any issues targeting you with one damp on them. You need all three to make them not able to attack you. The sniper thing is pointless because its useless at doing that, the range isn't long enough to hit snipers. So unless you're against solo people where you can dedicate all your damps to one target they aren't useful at all. Even with the scramming boost they're not incredibly useful since even with the bonus scramming range isn't very far (with faction stuff you're talking bubble distance, making it a very expensive tackler).
So many words equal so much hogwash. I present to you a noob who doesn't grasp the concept of falloff, just like 95% of the other people here. No problem, it's just a game, you can't be good at everything.
Taram Caldar, I salute you. Finally somebody with some sense. If you really want it, you can use damps to neutralize Falcons beyond 200km. Admittedly the Lach is better for that.
|
Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
|
Posted - 2008.08.17 00:56:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tes Quin
Originally by: Solomon XI
Interesting idea. But I don't see anything mentioned about drone bandwidth? Am I just blind?
Note: Nightly bump.
this is correct, no bandwidth upgrade. the ships' role is to primarily use damps not drones (imho), hence only increased versatility through bigger drone bays.
i also shall do some math to get the bonuses right, maybe some numbers are a bit off, especially the ones on the Keres may not be what i had in mind.
as you can see, i made the arazu a fleet ship with the focus on ewar capabilities (long range & more med-slots) and the lachesis a small gang ship with the focus on being "ganky" (more cap and more tank through more lows)
Aye very good point.
I still, for this purpose, would want to see +10 added to the drone bandwidth so that said boat(s) can field x5 medium drones. Gallente are drone boats, after all. I'd be willing to sacrifice the other weaponry on the Arazu (guns) for an added 10+ bandwidth and a damage mod for drones.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Gimpb
|
Posted - 2008.08.17 13:06:00 -
[73]
A range increase of some sort would be nice; such that it can reach sniper ranges effectively without implants, gang mods, etc. Rigs, mods, or a ship bonus to range or falloff would work.
It would probably be best to not make it easily accessible though as it could have a very negative impact on sniper fits if you do. So a ship bonus is probably best.
A similar treatment for tracking disruptors would be good as well.
|
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 00:47:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
In order to fix the Arazu it needs to be given two more launcher slots and a +5% damage bonus per level to assault, heavy and heavy assault missile launchers.
This will do many things:
#1, missiles are capless, helping with that issue (which is a big one).
#2, missiles have range, and they don't lose DPS over range, so the Arazu can fight at much longer ranges and still do DPS.
#3, selectable damage type- this makes a *huge* difference in the effective DPS on target when 100% of your DPS is going against the targets weakest resist instead of it's highest.
#4, tracking- with no tracking issues for missiles, the Arazu is free to move around a bit more and not worry about losing DPS.
#5, +10mbit to it's drone bandwidth, +60m3 to it's dronebay. One more medium drone in the air, and the option for two full flights of different medium drones. Come on CCP, where is the 'drone versatility' you've been promising all the Gallente pilots?
not gonna happen
----
GO BLUE!! |
Cactus Mack
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 01:41:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Asno Malo
Assuming L4 in all EWar skills and L4 in Recon, the Falcon can eliminate the targeting of 2 Ishtars 100% of the time up to roughly 150KM using Multispec ECM II, or 4 Isthars with Magnetometric ECM II
Clearly, you've never flown a Falcon.
As a maxed-skilled Falcon pilot, I can tell you that what you wrote is complete crap.
Fake Edit: Yes, an alt, because I'm too lazy to log on the other account.
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Cactus Mack
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 02:03:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Cactus Mack on 18/08/2008 02:03:37
Originally by: Podruski
With skills and mods, jammers are like 8 times as effective as the base module
Proof or STFU.
I'll save you the effort.
Best named ECM jammer for a race has base strength of 3.6
Max skills on a Falcon (which I have) with 3 Hypnos SDA's in the lows and 2 PDA II rigs gives you a jam strength 14.95.
Let's see now. 14.95 / 3.6 = 4.15
The difference is 4.15 times better than the base module. Not 8.
BTW, nobody is going to fit their falcon like that because the stacking penalties make it a waste of money, so you'll likely never see a Falcon with a jam strength of 14.95
Everyone also likes to forget mentioning that the ECM system is chance based. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
In fairness, the Falcon is probably slightly overpowered. I would be happy to see it dropped down to a 15% bonus per Recon level instead of 20%. This would balance that fact that it can warp cloaked, and would bring the Rook back into the game.
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Kransthow
Sage Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 06:26:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Cactus Mack
Edited by: Cactus Mack on 18/08/2008 02:03:37
Everyone also likes to forget mentioning that the ECM system is chance based.
As is Damping past 45k (with all lvl5 skills) and being forced so close to the action the second an enemy inteceptor notices you (In my expereience 2 seconds) your sorry ass is history. And unlike the falcon you have realistically 0% chance of escaping the interceptor before your ass is toast
New sig in da werkz |
murder one
Gallente
Invincible Reason
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 07:41:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Flawliss
Edited by: Flawliss on 15/08/2008 05:46:33
Originally by: murder one
Removing the Lach's missile bonus? I don't think so.
The answer here is to triple the damps base optimal range, dont' worry about optimal bonuses on Gallente recons, and buff the damp strength bonuses for the recons.
The problem here is that you then give any ship using RSDs a range bonus, which i highly doubt is what the Devs would go for. And I personally don't really think we need a RSD version of a falcon (arazu with loong RSD range)
As far as the missile bonus, I'll admit i am not a big fan of a Split weapon bonus on a primarily EWAR ship. It may be a combat recon, but is a Hyrbid bonus and or a Missile bonus really needed? your not gonna DPS with a Lach infact if your doing RSD ewar with added range, whats the point?
If you prefer missile on the lach then scrap the Hyrbid Bonus either way I dont support split weapon bonuses on a Recon ship when it could really use something more inline with its EWAR Family
If the Lach recieved an additional two missile points then I'd go for a missile only bonus.
I kill BS all the time *solo* with my Lach. In no way do I want it's already low DPS nerfed even more. Guns absolutely suck for damp ships for obvious reasons. TBH I do agree that the split bonus is lame. Hell, remove the gun damage bonus, give it two more missile launcher points and instead of a gun and missile bonus, give it two missile bonuses: ROF and damage. Lol, like that'll ever happen.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
Beltantis Torrence
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:19:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 18/08/2008 10:20:49
Originally by: Ruciza
So many words equal so much hogwash. I present to you a noob who doesn't grasp the concept of falloff, just like 95% of the other people here. No problem, it's just a game, you can't be good at everything.
Taram Caldar, I salute you. Finally somebody with some sense. If you really want it, you can use damps to neutralize Falcons beyond 200km. Admittedly the Lach is better for that.
Explain how you can get your distance out beyond 200km in an Arazu/Lachesis without having a full set of implants and gang mods specifically targetted to improving your range? Full set of centurion, max'd skills and T2 rigs will only take it out to 180km. As it is an unrigged Arazu can't hit out to 150. With both rigs used up on range it can just barely reach that far. When you need to start talking about implants to prove something is balance you've failed.
Or are you suggesting to fly the Arazu against snipers you a full set of implants? Smack talking alts are weak btw. Grow a pair and post with your main if you want to make ******* remarks.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
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Posted - 2008.08.18 17:27:00 -
[80]
Friendly poke to my topic.
Keep it on track please.
~Solo
Hoist The Colors. (CEO) |
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
Delta.Green
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 19:14:00 -
[81]
Lachesis: "Built to represent the last word in electronic warfare, combat recon ships have onboard facilities designed to maximize the effectiveness of electronic countermeasure modules of all kinds. Filling a role next to their class counterpart, the heavy assault ship, combat recon ships are the state of the art when it comes to anti-support support. They are also devastating adversaries in smaller skirmishes, possessing strong defensive capabilities in addition to their electronic superiority."
Ripped straight from the description, applicable to all combat recons. The anti-support support the Gallente needs to go after are Caldari support. Caldari support is to deny firepower (ECM) and pummel from long ranges. Gallente fight doctrine is to force enemy ships into closer range combat which the Caldari excel at. Damps are meant to accomplish this mission. The goal of the Lachesis is to kill or rout Caldari support, which are the Rook and Falcon.
So what are the problems with the Lachesis? Its got nifty bonuses both to disruptor range (affects scrambler?) and a paltry one to damp effectiveness. The nifty disruptor bonus is fine, so lets focus on damps. Max range with a damp with max skills is 45k + 90k falloff, add rigs to get it to 63/90. After max skilling and with a script, you can cut the range of the target ship down to 53%, provided they dont have a sensor booster. Sensor boosters, basically mandatory equip. on snipers, really mess up its effectiveness. Split damage bonus? Have it stick with hybrid or missiles, not both (id suggest missiles). Drones? Seems fine as is. It is cap hungry too.
How can it be fixed? Baseline EVERY combat recon ship with the same doctrine: 3 ewar bonuses and one damage bonus.
Caldari: Base is ECM cap and range, Leveled is ECM strength and its damage bonus
Amarr: Base is TD strength and Drone damage, Leveled is Neut/Vamp Strenth and Range
See how Amarr/Caldari are already in line? Lets fix the Gallente/Matar to be the same:
Gallente: Base would be SD Strength and Missile Damage (ROF or Therm%?), Leveled should be the SD range (to reach caldari) and Disruptor range (as it is now)
Minmatar: Base should be web range as it is now and heavy missile ROF, Leveled should change to TP bonus and web strength (follows the web nerf).
How should the Force Recons follow? (gotta fix the Arazu) Id dump the combat bonus (since its designed to be in a big fleet and use cloaks) and shuffle things so that only the ewar remains and you get the cloaking/cyno.
The only thing I cant offer is what would the strength of the bonus be to be fair. |
Flawliss
Gallente
Pilots of True Potential
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 05:14:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Flawliss on 19/08/2008 05:14:53
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Lachesis:
How can it be fixed? Baseline EVERY combat recon ship with the same doctrine: 3 ewar bonuses and one damage bonus.
Caldari: Base is ECM cap and range, Leveled is ECM strength and its damage bonus
Amarr: Base is TD strength and Drone damage, Leveled is Neut/Vamp Strenth and Range
See how Amarr/Caldari are already in line? Lets fix the Gallente/Matar to be the same:
Gallente: Base would be SD Strength and Missile Damage (ROF or Therm%?), Leveled should be the SD range (to reach caldari) and Disruptor range (as it is now)
Minmatar: Base should be web range as it is now and heavy missile ROF, Leveled should change to TP bonus and web strength (follows the web nerf).
How should the Force Recons follow? (gotta fix the Arazu) Id dump the combat bonus (since its designed to be in a big fleet and use cloaks) and shuffle things so that only the ewar remains and you get the cloaking/cyno.
The only thing I cant offer is what would the strength of the bonus be to be fair.
I very much agree with the sentiment of this post
I'll add though that along with those points made, I still belive that the cloaking type of recons should not gain as much of a range bonus as the non cloaking recons.
My reasoning is with the advantage of a cloaked ship, what can also warp cloaked that advantage should be used to get your range.
The ships that do not have the benifit of cloaking should retain/gain (depending on which ships need it) The range bonus
Simply stated:
If all Gall recons Gain range bonus to RSDs, Lach should get double what the Arazu recives
Caldari, Rook should have better ECM range then Falcon
Huggin should have greater range then a rapier
Curse should have greater range then Pilgrim
As to what Ewar should be balance with this is Debateable.
However with Gall ships, I definately favor a difference in RSDs
Minmatar, Painters perhaps (new speed changes could favor Painters more then before..
Amarr, Tracking Disrupters?
Caldari, is the tough one, because they only operate with a single Ewar. However as above, the rook should retain a range advantage.
|
Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors.
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 13:21:00 -
[83]
**Bump** |
Tes Quin
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 15:56:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Cactus Mack
...
nice numbers game there, lol, never trust numbers you didn't forge yourself
lets not get into falcons/rooks, this is about the celestis and maulus line of ships, k?
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
...
don't put all recons on one stack, they are very different, and imho, should stay different. also note that the nifty bonus to warp disruptors is not that nifty in a real combat situation. also heavy interdictors can disrupt much better with a better tank.
Originally by: Flawliss
...
My reasoning is with the advantage of a cloaked ship, what can also warp cloaked that advantage should be used to get your range.
...
well, the warp cloaked part does not get you in range, as warpin points are planted by figate hulls, it only allows you to sneak through enemy space and place a cyno or provide intel.
btw, my current numbers indicate a bonus increase of 8% or more on the ship bonuses. |
Flawliss
Gallente
Pilots of True Potential
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 04:59:00 -
[85]
Well yes for a warp in point you'll need a frigate, which could always be a covops or tackle, however if you do warp in cloaked and not in the range you want, you are still cloaked.
Which is still your advantage. |
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
Delta.Green
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 15:32:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 21/08/2008 15:34:37
Originally by: Tes Quin
nice numbers game there, lol, never trust numbers you didn't forge yourself
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
...
don't put all recons on one stack, they are very different, and imho, should stay different. also note that the nifty bonus to warp disruptors is not that nifty in a real combat situation. also heavy interdictors can disrupt much better with a better tank.
btw, my current numbers indicate a bonus increase of 8% or more on the ship bonuses.
You shoot things down too quickly... and I don't trust 8% for competitiveness since I didn't "forge" it up myself.
Needs to be one of those nice 20% bonuses (to range) to range that all those other ships get and maybe a 10 - 15% bonus to effectiveness. With the current Lachesis lock range you'll be fitting sensor boosters to make good use of the added range (limiting the number of your damps) and the strength is needed to overcome the mandatory sensor boosters that sniper ships use. Why does everyone forget that damps are double-useless currently because of that? Comparing damps to ECM, ECCM has no use outside of countering ECM, sensor boosters do.
Btw, it wasnt I that lumped these ships together, blame CCP for the description. And, yes, they are useful in different situations guaranteed, but thats done by their bonuses. And, yes, the disruptor bonus is quite nifty: drop in on a mining OP and instantly lock down several ships at range from the warp-in point. Not even the HIC (heavy interdictor) can do that. Its not going to be as useful as the all-powerful ECM, but as you said each recon is different so best to make the most of it? |
Karentaki
Gallente
Fighting While Intoxicated
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Posted - 2008.08.22 12:55:00 -
[87]
Bump for Gallente recon LOVE!!!
Give the arazu a 15% bonus, and the Lachesis a 20% bonus to dampening strength. Also, make the range script for damps give a 50% optimal range bonus.
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Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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here'n'there
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Posted - 2008.08.24 20:51:00 -
[88]
bump! |
Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.08.25 15:01:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Ruciza on 25/08/2008 15:04:13
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 18/08/2008 10:20:49
Originally by: Ruciza
So many words equal so much hogwash. I present to you a noob who doesn't grasp the concept of falloff, just like 95% of the other people here. No problem, it's just a game, you can't be good at everything.
Taram Caldar, I salute you. Finally somebody with some sense. If you really want it, you can use damps to neutralize Falcons beyond 200km. Admittedly the Lach is better for that.
Explain how you can get your distance out beyond 200km in an Arazu/Lachesis without having a full set of implants and gang mods specifically targetted to improving your range? Full set of centurion, max'd skills and T2 rigs will only take it out to 180km. As it is an unrigged Arazu can't hit out to 150. With both rigs used up on range it can just barely reach that far. When you need to start talking about implants to prove something is balance you've failed.
Or are you suggesting to fly the Arazu against snipers you a full set of implants? Smack talking alts are weak btw. Grow a pair and post with your main if you want to make ******* remarks.
I can make ******* remarks against whiners because I'm right. Your numbers are off, my friend. Just like I said, you don't understand falloff. An unrigged Arazu can't hit out to 150km?
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Uncle McScrooge
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Posted - 2008.08.25 17:40:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Solomon XI
Originally by: Andreya
Originally by: Solomon XI
CCP,
Presently the Arazu is the most ineffective of all Recon's.
wow, ever heard of a pilgrim?
gimme a break
Off topic, the Pilgrim isn't so bad. I've seen them do some good thing's...
Yes, it can haul 1400 mŠ.
While the arazu has issues the pilgrim is far *far* worse. Pilgrim was too strong before the ECM changes. It was balanced before the nos changes. Since then it is pretty pointless to fly in.
For the arazu: removing the turret bonus and giving it instead a double damp bonus might work. Same thing for the lach, in addition with 5 launcher slots.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.26 02:07:00 -
[91]
Originally by: here'n'there
bump!
This horse is dead. Stop beating it pls.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.26 02:11:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Ruciza
An unrigged Arazu can't hit out to 150km? Of course it can.
Where I come from 45 + 90 < 150. Missing > 50% of the time is not acceptable. Done arguing.
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Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.08.26 04:39:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Ruciza
An unrigged Arazu can't hit out to 150km? Of course it can.
Where I come from 45 + 90 < 150. Missing > 50% of the time is not acceptable. Done arguing.
Would you fit one damp on the Arazu? It seems you do!
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sliver 0xD
exiles.
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.08.26 07:11:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Asno Malo
Originally by: sliver 0xD
i sugested a change months ago that goes as folowign :
% of effect on damps range or reso to extream value like 85% 90%.
and then to counter the over power effect that change by adding the same chance base system as the ecm.
(maybe even based on the sensor strength. could put in some race counters in there liek the caldari have higher ecm strenght)
Perhaps I am one of the few, but I do not want the Arazu to be a RSD version of the Falcon. I don't want the range or the multiple targets of the Falcon, I am simply asking for the Arazu to get a small boost to their damp efficiency, 15% per level vs 5% per level.
Quote:
this chance system could also improve the pilgrim's tracking disruptor and the rapiers target painter.
I would have to heavily disagree on target painters because the painter itself provides no adverse affect, unlike RSD, ECM, and TD.
At the same time, I would also have to disagree with changing TD to chance based for one very simple reason. TD affects only a single class of weapon system (Guns) whereas ECM and RSD affect all weapon systems but one.
sure you dont want it to be a falcon. but what are we talking about? do we want to pull the arazu out of the shithole it is in or do we want to ***** more about the falcon.
nothing wrong with target target painter or target disruptors exept for the fact that nobody uses them. maybe 1 to fill that stupid extra midslot :P
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Somebody needs a hug! |
Karentaki
Gallente
Fighting While Intoxicated
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.08.26 14:07:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: here'n'there
bump!
This horse is dead. Stop beating it pls.
Alt of someone stupid enough to die to an Arazu spotted?
Anyway, it's hardly a dead issue until the issue either goes away or is fixed.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.27 16:05:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: here'n'there
bump!
This horse is dead. Stop beating it pls.
Alt of someone stupid enough to die to an Arazu spotted?
Anyway, it's hardly a dead issue until the issue either goes away or is fixed.
Nah its just that we're repeating the same thing....over and over....The two main schools of thought are :
1) Arazu needs better range or effectiveness on RSD's.
2) Arazu is fine.
At this point its just flames and rehashes. FWIW I'm in group #1.
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Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.08.27 16:14:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Asno Malo on 27/08/2008 16:17:28
Originally by: sliver 0xD
sure you dont want it to be a falcon. but what are we talking about? do we want to pull the arazu out of the shithole it is in or do we want to ***** more about the falcon.
Quite simply, I want to improve the Arazu without screwing up the other ships. Hence the disagreement about converting the TD and TP to chance.
I use the Falcon simply for comparison purposes only, and no where in any of my posts have I asked for a nerf on the Falcons. I am really really strange that way, I look at balance within the system not balance as a nerf to something else.
What I am asking for will have no negative impact on any other ship in the game, but will have a huge, and IMO positive, impact on the effectiveness of the Arazu.
EDIT: Fixed quoting
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HookerChick
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:07:00 -
[98]
Edited by: HookerChick on 28/08/2008 07:10:44
Edited by: HookerChick on 28/08/2008 07:08:08
Note: Falcon needs a nerf, Arazu/Lach need a buff.
I say Falcons need a nerf because when u have not 1 but 2 ECCM's on with the senor strength of a carrier or even a mother ship and you still get perma jammed that's ******ed.
I've been in countless battleship fights and get perma jammed by 5 heavy drones... or even ECMed by multispecs and racials. I've flown carriers and even a Nyx yet I still get jammed by a falcon with and without ECCM.
Arazu needs a buff just simply because of the fact that all other Recons are better then it.
In my idea, I say we wait and see what happens after the nano nerf etc.. before we start nerfing/buffing ships, once the nano nerf everything will change and the right now the only thing I see that makes the arazu ineffective is the fact that everything likes to nano and you cant really nano the arazu as it already has cap issues from its damps etc.. maby just maby id give it a reduction to damping cap uses like the falcon gets for ECM.
Until the nano nerf id wait because with the scramblers disabling MWD's it makes the game play a whole lot different.
The Arazu will have the advantage because of range on the scramblers etc.. I do how ever agree with a small buff on damps. there no where near as powerful as ECM or anything else for that matter.
Once again lets wait till the nano nerf etc.. and see what happens and go from there.
One more thing to add was I heard the Rapier was losing it's web bonuses and they were being given to the Arazu if true that's WAY OVERPOWERED and SHOULD NOT BE DONE.
having a Rapier with tracking link and target painter effective bonuses are ******ED and that's what Logistics are for not Recons. It renders Rapiers completely USELESS and alot of people wont be happy.
I don't know if this was just a roumor or what but if it's true then WOW CCP I've lost hope and faith in you.
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.09.08 14:40:00 -
[99]
Originally by: HookerChick
One more thing to add was I heard the Rapier was losing it's web bonuses and they were being given to the Arazu if true that's WAY OVERPOWERED and SHOULD NOT BE DONE.
having a Rapier with tracking link and target painter effective bonuses are ******ED and that's what Logistics are for not Recons. It renders Rapiers completely USELESS and alot of people wont be happy.
I don't know if this was just a roumor or what but if it's true then WOW CCP I've lost hope and faith in you.
Where the hell did that come from? If thats a rumor it needs to be shot. Granted, after the nano nerf the Rapier/Huggin need to be re-evaluated for effectiveness because they dont get a web-strength bonus. If the Arazu gets that and loses RSDs, it'd be the ultimate lockdown ship, however what is there left for the Minmatar? Are RSDs worthy for them? Id think since they are the speed/scrapheap race it just doesnt mesh well.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Asno Malo
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Posted - 2008.09.08 18:00:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Where the hell did that come from? If thats a rumor it needs to be shot. Granted, after the nano nerf the Rapier/Huggin need to be re-evaluated for effectiveness because they dont get a web-strength bonus. If the Arazu gets that and loses RSDs, it'd be the ultimate lockdown ship, however what is there left for the Minmatar? Are RSDs worthy for them? Id think since they are the speed/scrapheap race it just doesnt mesh well.
I hate to say it, but it would almost make sense to swap the Arazu's RSDs and the Rapiers webs, for the simple reason that the Rapier, due to it's speed, has the ability to maintain the RSD ranges whereas the Arazu does not. And conversely, the Arazu already has the WD/WS, so the web would actually make sense.
Please note I am not advocating this swap, simply saying that it would make sense.
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Tes Quin
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Posted - 2008.11.23 21:18:00 -
[101]
still in need of a look into.
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ccp/isd, ty for the portrait |
Sigras
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:24:00 -
[102]
Originally by: HookerChick
I've been in countless battleship fights and get perma jammed by 5 heavy drones... or even ECMed by multispecs and racials. I've flown carriers and even a Nyx yet I still get jammed by a falcon with and without ECCM.
You got jammed in a Nyx? ROFL
Originally by: CCP
Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare
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Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:10:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Asno Malo
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Where the hell did that come from? If thats a rumor it needs to be shot. Granted, after the nano nerf the Rapier/Huggin need to be re-evaluated for effectiveness because they dont get a web-strength bonus. If the Arazu gets that and loses RSDs, it'd be the ultimate lockdown ship, however what is there left for the Minmatar? Are RSDs worthy for them? Id think since they are the speed/scrapheap race it just doesnt mesh well.
I hate to say it, but it would almost make sense to swap the Arazu's RSDs and the Rapiers webs, for the simple reason that the Rapier, due to it's speed, has the ability to maintain the RSD ranges whereas the Arazu does not. And conversely, the Arazu already has the WD/WS, so the web would actually make sense.
Please note I am not advocating this swap, simply saying that it would make sense.
The Zu would OMGWTFBBQ! :P
FWIW I said this in another thread aswell but I recently got into the Zu, am really liking it and plan to *not* skill damps unless something changes. It's a useless shipbonus for me. Zu could use a buff or a rethink, yes.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:00:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Solomon XI
A couple of good idea's I've read so far:
Quote:
Sensor Dampening Drones:
Make them non-stacking nerfed. They will be in line with eWAR drones.
Ok. Discuss.
Would they become over-powered?
Yea, very overpowered. Just imagine what happens if you put 30 dampener drones on a single ship...
As it is, the ecm drones that are hated so much effectively suffer from stacking them, just do the math and compare the benefit you get from putting 5 med ecm drones on a target compared to 25 med ecms. Its not a linear increase in efficiency as you might think.
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Camdim
Caldari
The first genesis
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:57:00 -
[105]
The real disscussion should be how EWar is broken as a whole.
Once EWar is fixed then we can take a look at each ship and fix those ships.
Right now with the disparity in power between the diffrent types of EWar and thier use in the game any other disscussion would be pointless till that part is fixed.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.12.13 15:23:00 -
[106]
please have a look at it CCP
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Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
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