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Public Petition to resolve lag in large fleetfights

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Angry Cyno	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:19:00 - [1] Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt)
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:20:00 - [2] LAG? LAG?
Kjetilen	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:22:00 - [3] This is stupid, i just spent 40 minutes jumping into a system! i just loaded the system five minnutes ago, stil wating for my mods to activate!
Morat XS Train In Vain	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:22:00 - [4] /sig
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:24:00 - [5] I agree. Its absolutely disgusting that CCP have failed to fix the internets (worldwide) popped over to your house to optimise your (and my) PC, and deploy the steroid injected hybrid hampsters theyve blatantly been keeping in the broom cupboard. Clearly CCP have had the solution to Lag (that plagues every MMO in existence) and yet they just refuse to do anything about it. No doubt they sit around all day eating donuts. C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:24:00 - [6] Not signed, and I'll further launch a counter-petition to CCP for MORE lag to be delivered to those laggy systems. But, I WILL zig for great justice. Warp Speed skill needed!
Yelan Zhou Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Cailais I agree. Its absolutely disgusting that CCP have failed to fix the internets (worldwide) popped over to your house to optimise your (and my) PC, and deploy the steroid injected hybrid hampsters theyve blatantly been keeping in the broom cupboard. Clearly CCP have had the solution to Lag (that plagues every MMO in existence) and yet they just refuse to do anything about it. No doubt they sit around all day eating donuts. C. This. Shame to you CCP. War. War never changes.
kittypaws	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:34:00 - [8] Edited by: kittypaws on 10/08/2008 16:34:21 Before the new stupid killmail system the lag was "ok" Now you have lag with only 300 people in local! Before you could have 400-500-600 in local before the lag relay hit. Now you are stuck in a small fleet figth for one hour just to load the grid, Then if you are lucky you mange to active your mod's before the Figth is over. No mater what people say we all know the lag has increased a lot the last year! But atlest you now have epic loong battle rigth?
Ghost Goat	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Yelan Zhou Originally by: Cailais I agree. Its absolutely disgusting that CCP have failed to fix the internets (worldwide) popped over to your house to optimise your (and my) PC, and deploy the steroid injected hybrid hampsters theyve blatantly been keeping in the broom cupboard. Clearly CCP have had the solution to Lag (that plagues every MMO in existence) and yet they just refuse to do anything about it. No doubt they sit around all day eating donuts. C. This. Shame to you CCP. i would also would want to take this opportunity and add : CCP fix world hunger !!! CCP make global peace !!!
dan drorgar Minmatar Warped Mining	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:37:00 - [10] Edited by: dan drorgar on 10/08/2008 16:39:37 Edited by: dan drorgar on 10/08/2008 16:39:26 /signed current fleet fights are pathetic, 150v150 and you see no hostiles on the overview for 40+ minutes, module lag is 10+ minutes, but invisible enemies will bubble you... it's amazing what people are willing to put up with just because it has space ships in it. Current EVE = masochism contest. PS. Also the forums are a stupidity contest with people trying to look especially stupid by writing things like "it's the internet's fault"...
kittypaws	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:44:00 - [11] LoL i just lost a BS to rat's on a gate, i jumped into a system 40 minutes ago, now i finally load in a pod with NPC frigates on the gate.
Leviathan9 Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:53:00 - [12] Why the hell do people complain about lag? I never ever get lag (well in Jita i get a bit).... I think you should get a better ISP. ----------------------------
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:57:00 - [13] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 10/08/2008 16:58:17 Originally by: Angry Cyno Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt) Tell me, why should we listen to a Exclaimation mark Character who do not even have his corp or alliance showing? If you dont have courage enough to post on your main and stand for your words, why should we listen to your whining? We know theres lag in EVE! But tehres no reason to start a new spam thread over it! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Rhak Amharr Minmatar Holy Church Of Garmonism	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:58:00 - [14] Posting in a "one guy with lots of alts trolls the rest of the posters" thread.
Angry Cyno	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:02:00 - [15] is this COAD ? no .. i have my reasons for posting with my alt i am only trying to get some reply`s from others who are sick of ccp not even admit to have a serious issue about the current lag fest in fleetfights and i am not making another spam post
Eternum Praetorian Tupperware Party	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:03:00 - [16] The only real solution we can see in our time to lag will be 1.) An an overhaul to tranquility (which is both unlikely and may be impossible cause its supposed to be a huge supercomputer) and 2.) (and this is actually possible) NERF FLEET ENGAGEMENTS. 1000 + 1000 will create lag. There is nothing anyone can do about that. But if enough people make a big enough deal about it, maybe fleet engagements will be "revised a bit" And I don't think anyone is going to like that very much right?? Like say a system that rewards players that are willing to risk more expensive ships in smaller numbers then say a massive blob of tech I attempting to overwhelm the other blob in sheer size. Like a "system engagement limit" Sound like fun anyone??
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Angry Cyno Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt) Seriously, do you think that they could do it but they just wont? Why? What would be their motivation? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:06:00 - [18] This is a joke, 300 in system and it lags like 700. CCP you Fail after 5 years. ..i..
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Leviathan9 Why the hell do people complain about lag? I never ever get lag (well in Jita i get a bit).... I think you should get a better ISP. It's on CCP's side in fleet battles.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Malcanis Seriously, do you think that they could do it but they just wont? It is obvious. No serious hardware upgrades for ages and too many systems on the same node. No software improvements, "need for speed" my arse. Quote: Why? What would be their motivation? They prefer spending money on marketing rather than on improving EVE. There is no economic incentive since they can just lure new players to EVE while old ones cancel their subscriptions. Also, they are working on a new MMO and everyone knows you can't run 2 successful MMO's at the same time, so they will let EVE die slowly without any other major investments. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:16:00 - [21] Kill the map, kill local, force fleets to break off into smaller detachments for recon and protecting its assets. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
The Economist Logically Consistent	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:19:00 - [22] After almost 2 hours sitting on grid, one target loaded. I'm used to dealing with lag, but for the numbers involved this is ridiculous. CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes) Who the hell are they going to represent???
Julian Newmatar Caldari Matari Research Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Ghost Goat Originally by: Yelan Zhou Originally by: Cailais I agree. Its absolutely disgusting that CCP have failed to fix the internets (worldwide) popped over to your house to optimise your (and my) PC, and deploy the steroid injected hybrid hampsters theyve blatantly been keeping in the broom cupboard. Clearly CCP have had the solution to Lag (that plagues every MMO in existence) and yet they just refuse to do anything about it. No doubt they sit around all day eating donuts. C. This. Shame to you CCP. i would also would want to take this opportunity and add : CCP fix world hunger !!! CCP make global peace !!! Wrong Game :P
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Angry Cyno Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt) Lol. Vote against the nano nerf!
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:52:00 - [25] here a lesson for the lag ...get broadband get of dialup Quote: down near the station bio mass plant you can buy burgers that are 5% pork and 95% CRAP
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:54:00 - [26] And, much like all of his predecessors, the OP neglects to suggest precisely HOW this is to be done, or what evidence he has to suggest that CCP are not already doing everything they can to reduce the lag... Sad. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Il Reverendo Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.10 17:54:00 - [27] Originally by: GallenteCitizen20080615 here a lesson for the lag ...get broadband get of dialup Idiot.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:04:00 - [28] LOLthread is fail 2/10 though for the troll Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Il Reverendo Originally by: GallenteCitizen20080615 here a lesson for the lag ...get broadband get of dialup Idiot. To be fair, idiot OP deserves idiot response.
Ghost Goat	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Julian Newmatar Originally by: Ghost Goat Originally by: Yelan Zhou Originally by: Cailais I agree. Its absolutely disgusting that CCP have failed to fix the internets (worldwide) popped over to your house to optimise your (and my) PC, and deploy the steroid injected hybrid hampsters theyve blatantly been keeping in the broom cupboard. Clearly CCP have had the solution to Lag (that plagues every MMO in existence) and yet they just refuse to do anything about it. No doubt they sit around all day eating donuts. C. This. Shame to you CCP. i would also would want to take this opportunity and add : CCP fix world hunger !!! CCP make global peace !!! Wrong Game :P I stand corrected CCP we demand war world III now !!!! better ?
Il Reverendo Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Il Reverendo Originally by: GallenteCitizen20080615 here a lesson for the lag ...get broadband get of dialup Idiot. To be fair, idiot OP deserves idiot response. Well true, but the fight that clearly spawned this thread involved lag massively disproportionate to the amount of people involved. Who knows, maybe the node was twinned with jita
Dzajic Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:07:00 - [32] To all brilliant and informed people posting. Lag is not client side. Lag is not because of low bandwith user internet connections. True and deadly fleebloblag exists because of real server side problems that come from some rather poor decissions CCP made when they made EVE. Solving Lag is possible without any hardware upgrades to TQ server, but requires almost complete rework of CCPs server code. Not gonna happen, at least soon.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:08:00 - [33] CCP's server code is responsible for all the lag on the internetz! Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
linux4ever eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:13:00 - [34] it is also resposible for me not getting any reimbursment ^^
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:18:00 - [35] /signed We need to complain about this just as much as the complaints for all the other nerfs. That's the only thing that seems to work to get things changed, massive forums activity on one topic. Let's get it started!!!!!
Hungo Minmatar freelancers inc Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:18:00 - [36] Originally by: Cailais I agree. Its absolutely disgusting that CCP have failed to fix the internets (worldwide) popped over to your house to optimise your (and my) PC, and deploy the steroid injected hybrid hampsters theyve blatantly been keeping in the broom cupboard. Clearly CCP have had the solution to Lag (that plagues every MMO in existence) and yet they just refuse to do anything about it. No doubt they sit around all day eating donuts. C. Are you that stupid? It has NOTHING to dow ith people's ISP, yes sum pc's are slightly lwoer spec than most but it IS INFACT to dow ith there servers - please do not be such a CCP BUMBOY by attacking those like myself who suffer from CCPS IGNORANCE day after day, triple blade servers cannot handle the load, so if i where u id shut up
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:19:00 - [37] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 10/08/2008 18:19:48 Originally by: Hungo Originally by: Cailais I agree. Its absolutely disgusting that CCP have failed to fix the internets (worldwide) popped over to your house to optimise your (and my) PC, and deploy the steroid injected hybrid hampsters theyve blatantly been keeping in the broom cupboard. Clearly CCP have had the solution to Lag (that plagues every MMO in existence) and yet they just refuse to do anything about it. No doubt they sit around all day eating donuts. C. Are you that stupid? It has NOTHING to dow ith people's ISP, yes sum pc's are slightly lwoer spec than most but it IS INFACT to dow ith there servers - please do not be such a CCP BUMBOY by attacking those like myself who suffer from CCPS IGNORANCE day after day, triple blade servers cannot handle the load, so if i where u id shut up if you can fix the issue so easily why haven't they hired you? edit cause I fail at quoting w00t Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Arna Padrona Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:11:00 - [38] I quit FW the other day. Why? First time I got in a 30 vs 30 fight - I'm hit by masssive lag and then my client goes belly up and locks. I have to kill the client and log back on. When I return I'm podded. Ship and implants lost. Petition it. "Sorry. You should know fleets cause lag." Thanks for nothing CCP. Expecting the client to stay alive is too much I see. Second time I get into a 30 vs 30 fight - our cyno ship responsible for getting the carriers through gets stuck in the gate. The rest of us slowly trickle through the gate, and lock up on the far side. While our fleet is locked up, the enemy picks us off one by one. Our entirte fleet is unable to do anything, but somehow the enemy is able to attack us. Petition it? Why? Don't we all know the answer? "Lag? Tough." I refuse to get involved with FW, 0.0 or war - until CCP get their heads out of their bums and actually ADDRESS THE PROBLEM. Seeing as how 30 vs 30 combat is impossible, I don't even want to THINK about what 500-man strong cap fights are like. The infrastructure is incapable of dealing with even a fifth of what it's regularly subjected to. Totally signed. In the meantime, I'll run missions and mine. Boring, but at least it works as advertised.
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:14:00 - [39] /signed becouse: Fleet battles could be one of the best and most exciting things. Actually they are the worst and most annoying things. I really hope we will be able to do fleet fights in future, ccp is so proud about them, but they are not viable at all.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:33:00 - [40] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 10/08/2008 19:33:42 Threads like this make me assume that some people really think that CCP isn't concerned about lag (their steady increase in node capacity over the past few years being completely disregarded, of course.)
Interscene Minmatar E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:34:00 - [41] Edited by: Interscene on 10/08/2008 19:34:52 Originally by: Arna Padrona I refuse to get involved with FW, 0.0 or war - until CCP get their heads out of their bums and actually ADDRESS THE PROBLEM. Seeing as how 30 vs 30 combat is impossible, I don't even want to THINK about what 500-man strong cap fights are like. I can confirm, they are utterly, utterly unplayable at times. Yes, yes, everyone calls the NC the power-blob, take it to COAD where I don't read or care. Fact is, when the enemy attacking your space gets together 250+ ships, you have to get 250+ ships also or you're going to lose. The result, when the two fleets meet the game breaks - Tatics in EVE 0.0 battles currenly rely on two factors: "Is module lag above 10 minutes?" and "Which fleet will first load grid?" FCs are now 9/10ths concerned with lag, 1/10th concerned with numbers. Currently, 0.0 tactics leave things like setups and fleet makeup irrelevent. If you jump into an enemy, they'll pick you to peices before you load grid. Battles are decided by getting 400km warp-ins on the enemy, taking as long as you can for your members to load grid before warping to attack range. Lag at this point when 200vs200 is at 20 minutes to load grid if you are there from the start and 20 minute module activation. I was in a battle not two hours ago, so mad I had to come here, looking for a thread to troll. Locking takes 10 minutes plus - how is that MY computers fault? - Activating modules another 10 minutes and you can forget turning them off. Your guns will empty themselves on the target, or he'll pop. If they empty it's 10 minutes to automatically deactivate and another 10 to reload - at best. At worst, you'll desync and never get back. You can lose HOURS to these fights. Then you have CAPS. One cap ship generates as much lag as at least ten normal players - the instant they arrive in system or on grid - goodbye game. Caps just bring their own lag like it's in their fuel bays. I won't even start on what happens when a titan DDs in 20 minute module lag. Hell, I don't think the SERVER has the faintest clue what happens. Kill and loss mails not delivered (And CCP deny they ever happened despite player logs) Players that weren't on grid during activation, die. People that warped out, don't warp out - their lag is longer than the titans... and they die. People DO warp out, get to another planet or grid... and die suddenly for no reason despite being DD tanked but the server recorded them being damaged when it happened. It makes fleet battles UNPLAYABLE. I don't mind dying, but a thirty-second lag would be awsome, it'd mean tactics come back in. Currently, the science of LAG rules the large engagements. And unless the enemy you are fighting is willing to bring only 50 ships (never happen) and unless you are willing to meet them with only 50 ships in return (never happen, it's probably a trick!!!11one) then we're still going to have a game incapable of handling large engagements and CCP should not continue to encourage it. We should be enjoying the most epic engagements of our time. Last week our coalition lost 20+ Caps including 3 Moms in a single fight of 100+ caps(I don't belive they were petitioned, you don't undock for PVP if you don't want to lose a ship) and lag took almost an HOUR per module. It should have been EPIC - instead, it was utterly, utterly unenjoyable, broken-game CRAP. I'm not an IRON diplomat or a spokesmen, my words and opinions are my own. Good luck taking them off me, though.
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:34:00 - [42] What a stupid thread, Im sure if they could just "Turn the lag off" they would do.
ImUrDestiny Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:42:00 - [43] Originally by: Arna Padrona I quit FW the other day. Why? First time I got in a 30 vs 30 fight - I'm hit by masssive lag and then my client goes belly up and locks. Same here, left FW because of that too. The lag is limiting my options in this game, not much left to do but carebear. I hear CCP is working on "premium accounts". For $15 a month extra your packets are handled first by the server, which gives you the advantage over other players.
X4N4X	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:47:00 - [44] /sig
marigoyla	Posted - 2008.08.10 20:13:00 - [45] Originally by: Leviathan9 Why the hell do people complain about lag? I never ever get lag (well in Jita i get a bit).... I think you should get a better ISP. Either you have never been in a fleet battle, either you are joking. Waiting about 2-3 hours to gather the fleet, and then suddenly after 4 hours of playing everything just freezes (guess the bad guys are jumping in...). Then for about 10-30 minutes, you can do absolutely nothing, and you wake up in your pod, docked in a station. Losing your ship, and 3-4 hours of gameplay, just so it freezes and you wake up in your POD, without having the chance to shoot a single bullet, ISNT FUNNY AT ALL. KUDOS to all the carebears out there. We all got speed tickets. Now we must comply with the law (the physic's law)
Angry Cyno	Posted - 2008.08.10 20:41:00 - [46] So many guys running mission don't have to post here, you have zero lag... and back to the point, Interscene you made a bang on post about the current state of 0.0 pew pew and this is what i started this thread to get the ccp to well admit that they do have a problem when it comes to rather large battles taking place in eve atm i know that they have run numerous test on SISI and they have yet posted any result of those tests and what they are planning to do about it, i did not post this to spam the forum or make any silly post i realy want to know and what CCP are doing to resolve this. and btw i was in the same fight as Interscene was.. to bad the server dropped on my and after 40min watching the rather booring " Entering Game screen " i finaly got in and found myself 460km off the gate where the battle was taking place. lucky i was offgrid and warped back to a safe spot and logged off and got myself a nice beer and decided to make a post about the LAG since this is starting to get realy annoying. Please keep this thread clean of stupid comments and more informative comments coming in. thats all for now.
Leviathan9 Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:14:00 - [47] Edited by: Leviathan9 on 10/08/2008 21:15:36 Originally by: marigoyla Originally by: Leviathan9 Why the hell do people complain about lag? I never ever get lag (well in Jita i get a bit).... I think you should get a better ISP. Either you have never been in a fleet battle, either you are joking. Waiting about 2-3 hours to gather the fleet, and then suddenly after 4 hours of playing everything just freezes (guess the bad guys are jumping in...). Then for about 10-30 minutes, you can do absolutely nothing, and you wake up in your pod, docked in a station. Losing your ship, and 3-4 hours of gameplay, just so it freezes and you wake up in your POD, without having the chance to shoot a single bullet, ISNT FUNNY AT ALL. KUDOS to all the carebears out there. Ok, first i've never ever had to wait more than 2mins to enter a system. 2nd i've been in fleet battles. Apon warping in a fleet of about 90 to another fleet of roughly same size, it took about 3.5mins to exit warp. From then i get mainly FPS lag. But internet lag, no, not really the game is at a perfectly playable state.. I just have good internet, or it could just be the fact i live near EVE's super computer server thingy. Or it could be the fact the US has terrible ISPs? Also the fact they're on the other side of the world to the servers. So one option could be to place a 2nd super computer thingy in the US, but i don't know if thats possible. So from what you say has never happened to me.. ----------------------------
IAmAHaulingAlt Meep Beep	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Leviathan9 Edited by: Leviathan9 on 10/08/2008 21:15:36 Originally by: marigoyla Originally by: Leviathan9 Why the hell do people complain about lag? I never ever get lag (well in Jita i get a bit).... I think you should get a better ISP. Either you have never been in a fleet battle, either you are joking. Waiting about 2-3 hours to gather the fleet, and then suddenly after 4 hours of playing everything just freezes (guess the bad guys are jumping in...). Then for about 10-30 minutes, you can do absolutely nothing, and you wake up in your pod, docked in a station. Losing your ship, and 3-4 hours of gameplay, just so it freezes and you wake up in your POD, without having the chance to shoot a single bullet, ISNT FUNNY AT ALL. KUDOS to all the carebears out there. Ok, first i've never ever had to wait more than 2mins to enter a system. 2nd i've been in fleet battles. Apon warping in a fleet of about 90 to another fleet of roughly same size, it took about 3.5mins to exit warp. From then i get mainly FPS lag. But internet lag, no, not really the game is at a perfectly playable state.. I just have good internet, or it could just be the fact i live near EVE's super computer server thingy. Or it could be the fact the US has terrible ISPs? Also the fact they're on the other side of the world to the servers. So one option could be to place a 2nd super computer thingy in the US, but i don't know if thats possible. So from what you say has never happened to me.. pfft, u have no idea, try go to deklein and fight, its nearly pointless.. Get a clue
Interscene Minmatar E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:18:00 - [49] Edited by: Interscene on 10/08/2008 21:20:07 Yush, you people never been in a fleet fight, or know what it's like, or know what 0.0 involves - don't need to complain we need better PCs or better broadband. Todays Dek battle was Euro's and US mixed, btw. It's something I've experianced from Etherium, Pureblind, Branch down to Querius. Jita has nothing on a 0.0 system with titans on combat station at gates, spider-repping motherships launching bomber wings orbiting and four t2 large bubbles, people orbiting gates to catch cloakers, support and BS ready to snipe. That lags worse than you will EVER see in empire, even with all graphics turned off, it's mandatory in IRON and other alliances to have graphics, effects and overview brackets turned off - even then modules are near three or four minute lags. Thats BEFORE you include hostiles. I'm sitting there with all this stuff around me getting 75frames per second. It's not me that is lagging. I've faught in some reasonable lag battles, but never with more than 50vs50 at a time. Above that, lag makes the battles hard. Above that, the game is broken. I mean, I can take a minute or two lag and call that reasonable. Thats actually pretty manageable. I call the game 'broken' when, you try to lock someone, and it times out after ten minutes. Or when you try to jump in and you never arrive in system after two hours. Or when someone broadcasts a cyno and by the time it's even appeared, it's shut down and no-one can jump to it. Or you've said to orbit someone, ten minutes later they're gone and your ship takes off into space and gets almost 300kms before it gets your command to get the hell back! This is not manageable or playable. Oh, and Angry Cyno, at least EveMail from your main, I'll keep it a secret, promise~ I just want to know if I repped or shot you today~ I'm not an IRON diplomat or a spokesmen, my words and opinions are my own. Good luck taking them off me, though.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:20:00 - [50] CCP should just shut down the servers for a week and just write over the homepage "BRB fixing lag" ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:37:00 - [51] The idiots are whining again, so it must be Sunday.
Leviathan9 Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Interscene Edited by: Interscene on 10/08/2008 21:20:07 Yush, you people never been in a fleet fight, or know what it's like, or know what 0.0 involves - don't need to complain we need better PCs or better broadband. Todays Dek battle was Euro's and US mixed, btw. It's something I've experianced from Etherium, Pureblind, Branch down to Querius. Jita has nothing on a 0.0 system with titans on combat station at gates, spider-repping motherships launching bomber wings orbiting and four t2 large bubbles, people orbiting gates to catch cloakers, support and BS ready to snipe. That lags worse than you will EVER see in empire, even with all graphics turned off, it's mandatory in IRON and other alliances to have graphics, effects and overview brackets turned off - even then modules are near three or four minute lags. Thats BEFORE you include hostiles. I'm sitting there with all this stuff around me getting 75frames per second. It's not me that is lagging. I've faught in some reasonable lag battles, but never with more than 50vs50 at a time. Above that, lag makes the battles hard. Above that, the game is broken. I mean, I can take a minute or two lag and call that reasonable. Thats actually pretty manageable. I call the game 'broken' when, you try to lock someone, and it times out after ten minutes. Or when you try to jump in and you never arrive in system after two hours. Or when someone broadcasts a cyno and by the time it's even appeared, it's shut down and no-one can jump to it. Or you've said to orbit someone, ten minutes later they're gone and your ship takes off into space and gets almost 300kms before it gets your command to get the hell back! This is not manageable or playable. Oh, and Angry Cyno, at least EveMail from your main, I'll keep it a secret, promise~ I just want to know if I repped or shot you today~ Well with those large 0.0 battles you got like 1000 + different ships on screens including drones adn fighters and hella of a lot of effects, that lag, theres nothing CCP can do about it, because theres not the technology for it. People are just going to try have smaller fleet fights. ----------------------------
Aikanaro Gallente Burning Sky Labs	Posted - 2008.08.10 22:04:00 - [53] tbh its ccp own damn fault for promoting fleet battles, they did everything to make it impossible to go solo pvp. Just look at the latest trailer, hunderds of BS and larger ships with no lagg with these awesome graphics, the closest you can get to that is when u turn ur graphic effects to nothing have an extreme cache and fight max 50vs50 (and still u have to be lucky to have no lagg). Is it ccp's fault for the massive lagg? - no because there isnt any kind of server that could handle it. is it ccp's fault for promoting lagg battles? - YES
Deepdragon Fogbound	Posted - 2008.08.10 22:13:00 - [54] Originally by: Leviathan9 Well with those large 0.0 battles you got like 1000 + different ships on screens including drones adn fighters and hella of a lot of effects, that lag, theres nothing CCP can do about it, because theres not the technology for it. People are just going to try have smaller fleet fights. acctualy the new overview settings help quiet a lot by this. for example you wont see drones anymore as crosses and with colortags moving arround....same for everyship.... which really makes a difference. i think what it is that people dislike is that 150 vs 150 battles were possible.... sure with lag but not 10minutes for a single module.... you even could reload or ... switch ammo o.o! since some time you face the problem that even 30 people in local doing their own stuff can create decent lag. not to mention what happens even in minor engagements. so basicly all you get is people "who knew how it were" complaining about that it became more worse than it allready used to be instead of better as ccp wanted to have it too see need for speed.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.10 22:21:00 - [55] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 10/08/2008 22:22:44 Edited by: Pan Crastus on 10/08/2008 22:21:55 Originally by: Deepdragon i think what it is that people dislike is that 150 vs 150 battles were possible.... sure with lag but not 10minutes for a single module.... you even could reload or ... switch ammo o.o! Precisely. We've had fights with 600 in local and 400+ on grid that were actually playable, including Fighter blobs. People who are saying that "zere isn't ze technology for it" should stop trying to use the empty space between their ears. CCP have utterly failed to come up with results for their "need for speed" initiative, apparently the result is exactly the opposite of what they claimed that they would do. It's probably a new lag bug, we've had plenty of those allegedly fixed over the years (see patch notes ~2 years ago), but nowdays it's all gone to hell and CCP does not seem to work on fixing the broken code anymore. I guess they finally realized that they don't have to because they can keep subscription numbers stable despite their lame code as long as the marketing budget is fat enough. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.08.10 22:26:00 - [56] Maybe it is time for CCP to try something else...... Limit alliances to say 1000 members (maybe less), and make it impossible to set standings. Ie. your alliance mates are blue on the overview, everyone else is red..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
marigoyla	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:02:00 - [57] There are even less drastic measures. Simply limit the Fleet numbers. Make it max 60 ships. Then instead of everyone jumping in with every crap-ship theyve got, we only keep the best ones, the best mix of ships. It is more strategical also. Now there is now strategy involved. Alliances moto = Come with whatever you can afford. I can live with 20-40 secongs lag, for modules to go active etc. But with everything SUDDENLY frozen and after 20 minutes waking up in my docked POD. No i cant live like that. Wasting 4 hours of gameplay, and not having the climax JOY that i was preparing all this time. Thats why i have almost quited fleet battles. I rarely go to them anymore. If it is small roaming gangs im in 120%. But fleet battleS? I must really have nothing better to do.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:23:00 - [58] Oh man this must be the most reatarded topic of the week, and the week has just started! Way to go, a petition to solve an issue that can't be resolved 100%. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:38:00 - [59] Originally by: marigoyla There are even less drastic measures. Simply limit the Fleet numbers. Make it max 60 ships. Then instead of everyone jumping in with every crap-ship theyve got, we only keep the best ones, the best mix of ships. It is more strategical also. Now there is now strategy involved. Alliances moto = Come with whatever you can afford. Stop posting *****ed ideas without thinking for 2 seconds. We already use multiple fleets to circumvent the current limit (256). We could even use fleets of 10 people, it would not make a difference to the size of the engagements. Limiting play styles because CCP does not want to invest enough in fixing lag is stupid. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming*
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:43:00 - [60] Originally by: Leviathan9 Originally by: Interscene Edited by: Interscene on 10/08/2008 21:20:07 Yush, you people never been in a fleet fight, or know what it's like, or know what 0.0 involves - don't need to complain we need better PCs or better broadband. Todays Dek battle was Euro's and US mixed, btw. It's something I've experianced from Etherium, Pureblind, Branch down to Querius. Jita has nothing on a 0.0 system with titans on combat station at gates, spider-repping motherships launching bomber wings orbiting and four t2 large bubbles, people orbiting gates to catch cloakers, support and BS ready to snipe. That lags worse than you will EVER see in empire, even with all graphics turned off, it's mandatory in IRON and other alliances to have graphics, effects and overview brackets turned off - even then modules are near three or four minute lags. Thats BEFORE you include hostiles. I'm sitting there with all this stuff around me getting 75frames per second. It's not me that is lagging. I've faught in some reasonable lag battles, but never with more than 50vs50 at a time. Above that, lag makes the battles hard. Above that, the game is broken. I mean, I can take a minute or two lag and call that reasonable. Thats actually pretty manageable. I call the game 'broken' when, you try to lock someone, and it times out after ten minutes. Or when you try to jump in and you never arrive in system after two hours. Or when someone broadcasts a cyno and by the time it's even appeared, it's shut down and no-one can jump to it. Or you've said to orbit someone, ten minutes later they're gone and your ship takes off into space and gets almost 300kms before it gets your command to get the hell back! This is not manageable or playable. Oh, and Angry Cyno, at least EveMail from your main, I'll keep it a secret, promise~ I just want to know if I repped or shot you today~ Well with those large 0.0 battles you got like 1000 + different ships on screens including drones adn fighters and hella of a lot of effects, that lag, theres nothing CCP can do about it, because theres not the technology for it. People are just going to try have smaller fleet fights. The technology exists. CCP are noware near using the latest stuff out there. CCP are using the three wheel car atm. The Technology exists that could handle 600v600 battles lag free. It costs something like a years turnover, but CCP really need to invest asap as people are leaving in disgust over crippling lag. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:51:00 - [61] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo [ The technology exists. CCP are noware near using the latest stuff out there. CCP are using the three wheel car atm. The Technology exists that could handle 600v600 battles lag free. It costs something like a years turnover, but CCP really need to invest asap as people are leaving in disgust over crippling lag. Rubbish.
Arna Padrona Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:05:00 - [62] "****ed topic, blah, blah..." What do you suggest then? Say nothing? CCP have unsatisfied customers, and those customers will speak their minds. That's how CCP knows their players are upset about something... There is also the major issue of CCP promoting FW, fleet combat, and the damn servers can't deliver what they promise. That IS a problem. Pointing it out once a week does not make you ****ed - it makes you concerned and involved.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:08:00 - [63] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Originally by: Jenny' JoJo [ The technology exists. CCP are noware near using the latest stuff out there. CCP are using the three wheel car atm. The Technology exists that could handle 600v600 battles lag free. It costs something like a years turnover, but CCP really need to invest asap as people are leaving in disgust over crippling lag. Rubbish. Nope. CCP are noware near the pinnicle of supercomputing. Supercomputing costing tens of millions of dollers and far far outperform what we have currently. Forget 600v600, it can handle millions. In fact, some Supercomputers can even calculate are currents etc and are used for accurate predictions of weather. And thats trillions vs trillions territory. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:13:00 - [64] Originally by: Arna Padrona "****ed topic, blah, blah..." What do you suggest then? Say nothing? CCP have unsatisfied customers, and those customers will speak their minds. That's how CCP knows their players are upset about something... There is also the major issue of CCP promoting FW, fleet combat, and the damn servers can't deliver what they promise. That IS a problem. Pointing it out once a week does not make you ****ed - it makes you concerned and involved. Exactly. both customers and gaming press are aware of Eve's terrible lag problems. It really is hedious. Let us say I want to pvp with a mothership on the front lines. Lol, like thats going to happen due to crippling lag. Even a titans doomsday is fine if there was no lag. But for goodness sake, the lag issues are so bad that the game is compleatly unplayable. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:15:00 - [65] Originally by: Angry Cyno Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt) GTFO of jita
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:17:00 - [66] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Arna Padrona "****ed topic, blah, blah..." What do you suggest then? Say nothing? CCP have unsatisfied customers, and those customers will speak their minds. That's how CCP knows their players are upset about something... There is also the major issue of CCP promoting FW, fleet combat, and the damn servers can't deliver what they promise. That IS a problem. Pointing it out once a week does not make you ****ed - it makes you concerned and involved. Exactly. both customers and gaming press are aware of Eve's terrible lag problems. It really is hedious. Let us say I want to pvp with a mothership on the front lines. Lol, like thats going to happen due to crippling lag. Even a titans doomsday is fine if there was no lag. But for goodness sake, the lag issues are so bad that the game is compleatly unplayable. You really should upgrade from the old 286 pc your using.
Prof Patpending Warp badgers with guns	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:19:00 - [67] Originally by: linux4ever it is also resposible for me not getting any reimbursment ^^ The logs! They show nothing!
Spurty Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:01:00 - [68] There is a reason for the explosion in lag when caps hit the combat zone. They are full of gear, they are like floating space stations full of hangers. Heck, even the poor cap pilot has to suffer the lag when shifting through the contents of their bays. Well if you want everyone on one server, this is your legacy. The problem is the sheer quantity of network information being sent/received over TCP/IP. Load up wireshark and watch it come/go. Its mind boggling in a fleet fight! The only viable solution to it (reduce lag) would be to split the servers up so EU, US, Asia, Rest of World get their own versions of EVE (I think someone just fainted at this concept). There is a reason other MMOs have these split 'server' setups. Its not that they are lazy. Personally, I'd sooner 20k of people stopping whining about nerfs and left the game ;-) I also have this gut feeling that CCP doesn't want that to happen. Either way, unless CCP can do something clever to optimize network info (i.e. chop all info about ship loadouts, drones and contents of cargo bays leaving only XYZ and velocity / weapons fired) we shall never see a reduction in lag. How to do such a thing? Clever use of hashes to send all of the contents of the ship in one data item at the start of a fight for example. This was just an idea off the top of my head (and its 'feasibly' exploitable, but far from easily, impossible if a 'key' linked to the system you are in is used) and before my first cuppa tea! I'm sure the egg heads at CCP can design a better system. I really would LOVE to see EPIC 500vs500 battles take place at a pace faster than a slide show, just can't see todays technology bringing it! Your signature has been removed for inappropriate content. -Taera
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:07:00 - [69] Originally by: Spurty There is a reason for the explosion in lag when caps hit the combat zone. They are full of gear, they are like floating space stations full of hangers. Heck, even the poor cap pilot has to suffer the lag when shifting through the contents of their bays. Well if you want everyone on one server, this is your legacy. The problem is the sheer quantity of network information being sent/received over TCP/IP. Load up wireshark and watch it come/go. Its mind boggling in a fleet fight! The only viable solution to it (reduce lag) would be to split the servers up so EU, US, Asia, Rest of World get their own versions of EVE (I think someone just fainted at this concept). There is a reason other MMOs have these split 'server' setups. Its not that they are lazy. Personally, I'd sooner 20k of people stopping whining about nerfs and left the game ;-) I also have this gut feeling that CCP doesn't want that to happen. Either way, unless CCP can do something clever to optimize network info (i.e. chop all info about ship loadouts, drones and contents of cargo bays leaving only XYZ and velocity / weapons fired) we shall never see a reduction in lag. How to do such a thing? Clever use of hashes to send all of the contents of the ship in one data item at the start of a fight for example. This was just an idea off the top of my head (and its 'feasibly' exploitable, but far from easily, impossible if a 'key' linked to the system you are in is used) and before my first cuppa tea! I'm sure the egg heads at CCP can design a better system. I really would LOVE to see EPIC 500vs500 battles take place at a pace faster than a slide show, just can't see todays technology bringing it! I can do explorations which have hundreds of NPC's lag free on a 36k hotel modem. Eve is very bandwith friendly. Yet a single 30 v 30 and it bogs down. 2 years ago 30 v 30 was playable, heck 100 v 100 was playable. Even the first superblob in ec-p years back had 10 seconds module lag, not 40 minute module lag. Lag is getting worse and worse. Something is wrong someware. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Sannah Ur	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:21:00 - [70] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo I can do explorations which have hundreds of NPC's lag free on a 36k hotel modem. Those NPCs aren't recieving information about you. PCs are. This problem exists in every MMO. The servers can handle only a certain amount of PCs close to each other, because with every extra PC in range the amount of data processed grows exponentially. Lets say for each PC you need to transfer 1kB/second. If you have 2PCs, each one is getting 2kB/sec (you recieve your own info, as well as the info about the other guy, so that's 4kB/sec total. If you have 3 PCs nearby, each one of them recieves 3kBsec, that's 9kB sec total data. 4PCs = 4x4 = 16. See where this is going? 100 PCs = 100x100 = 10MB/sec. You guys are talking about 150x150 fleet battles, that's 300x300 = 90MB/sec. Personally a player only recieves 300kB/sec for those fleet battles. The problem is NOT your personal connection. The problem is the amount of information that the servers (Tranquility is not just one machine) need processing. And it's not a problem you solve by just throwing more hardware at it. There's always a bottleneck somewhere.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:39:00 - [71] Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 11/08/2008 13:45:42 Originally by: Sannah Ur Originally by: Jenny' JoJo I can do explorations which have hundreds of NPC's lag free on a 36k hotel modem. Those NPCs aren't recieving information about you. PCs are. This problem exists in every MMO. The servers can handle only a certain amount of PCs close to each other, because with every extra PC in range the amount of data processed grows exponentially. Lets say for each PC you need to transfer 1kB/second. If you have 2PCs, each one is getting 2kB/sec (you recieve your own info, as well as the info about the other guy, so that's 4kB/sec total. If you have 3 PCs nearby, each one of them recieves 3kBsec, that's 9kB sec total data. 4PCs = 4x4 = 16. See where this is going? 100 PCs = 100x100 = 10MB/sec. You guys are talking about 150x150 fleet battles, that's 300x300 = 90MB/sec. Personally a player only recieves 300kB/sec for those fleet battles. The problem is NOT your personal connection. The problem is the amount of information that the servers (Tranquility is not just one machine) need processing. And it's not a problem you solve by just throwing more hardware at it. There's always a bottleneck somewhere. Incorrect. Univeristy student style maths is not what people do in the real world. Each Tick Client 1 undates server Client 2 updates server Client 3 updates server Server Updates Client 1 Server Updates Client 2 Server Updates Client 3 Thats it. The Clients DO NOT update each other.If a server is so lagged, it skips updating client 3 for example, and this is why some peope load grid and others do not. (and both these people are getting a smooth FPS) 4 people is not 16(4x4). Thats your "I do univiersity so I am expert" stuff kicking in. Real world stuff is far in advance of 1st year university Computer science. All the server has to do is update the client. If the server can update a client wth 100's of NPC ships on a 36k modem, then there is no "transmission bandwith" issue that is the cause. LOL at your 90MB/sec theory. That is compleatly false. Clients DO NOT UPDATE each other! Eve is not P2P Its teh bloody server cannot handle it. Anybody with 1 day experience of 0.0 pvp knows this. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Sannah Ur	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:44:00 - [72] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Thats it. The Clients DO NOT update each other. Tip: 1. Read 2. Comprehend 3. Reply If 2 doesn't happen, skip 3 aswell. I never said clients update each other, that would be impossible. I was talking about Player Characters, not Personal Computers. That should be obvious from my reply.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:46:00 - [73] This is clearly a time for CCP to raise subscription prices. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:48:00 - [74] Originally by: Sannah Ur Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Thats it. The Clients DO NOT update each other. Tip: 1. Read 2. Comprehend 3. Reply If 2 doesn't happen, skip 3 aswell. I never said clients update each other, that would be impossible. I was talking about Player Characters, not Personal Computers. That should be obvious from my reply. 300 v 300 is not 90MB/Sec. 300 v 300 = Server gets 600 updates from 600 players, and sends 600 updates back. Learn CLIENT-SERVER Model. Clients NEVER update each other. Only the server does this. Ise with lag is CCP's servers cannot handle fleet pvp - we all know this. So stop with your 1st year computer science "I am expert" Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Sannah Ur	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:06:00 - [75] Edited by: Sannah Ur on 11/08/2008 14:09:13 Originally by: Jenny' JoJo 300 v 300 is not 90MB/Sec. 300 v 300 = Server gets 600 updates from 600 players, and sends 600 updates back. Learn CLIENT-SERVER Model. Clients NEVER update each other. Only the server does this. Ise with lag is CCP's servers cannot handle fleet pvp - we all know this. So stop with your 1st year computer science "I am expert" For ****s sake, READ! First, I was talking about a 150 vs 150 battle, that's 300 people. The 300 x 300 figure is because the server has to process and send information about 300 people to 300 players. The server INTERNALLY has problems handling the massive amount of data and computations. The 1kB/sec per player is just a number easy to use, it could be 10 or 100, just to show people how the amount of 'works' for the server increases for every person you add to a fight. Again, I am NOT saying the clients update each other, that's what you read in the little piece I wrote and you are simply wrong there. I'm talking about teh amount of data the server itself has to process and send to the clients. Regarding your "your 1st year computer science" comment; it's quite silly to make that kind of assumptions about people. I'm actually 28 and have been working in the parallel computing bussiness for 6 years now. P.s., just for kicks, could you describe what Tranquility looks like from a hardware point of few?
Dzajic Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:09:00 - [76] For christs sake. Its not to CCPs hardware. TQ server still has a loot of overhead, even with 40k people online. CCP fracked up with software side. First, they use MS SQL (ok, its not that bad but...), much much worse, they use single threaded Python for their server code. To me at least, that's a mindboggling decision. So in end, no matter how much TQ resurces are free, one solar system can only be processes by a single Node, and if CCP hasnt been made aware of incoming fleet battle, that node will be trying to serve entire constellation. Atm there isnt a possibility of multiple nodes processing a single lagged out system.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:14:00 - [77] Lag? Who says lag is a problem, we got walking prego in stations, useless nerfs and game breaking mechanics changes lead by dev's callin for 5 fighters on carriers no lag, desynch? thats just a cliente disese
Sannah Ur	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:20:00 - [78] Edited by: Sannah Ur on 11/08/2008 14:20:45 Originally by: Dzajic For christs sake. Its not to CCPs hardware. TQ server still has a loot of overhead, even with 40k people online. TQ isn't a single server. Of you have loads of peope in the same system, they bottleneck the node that system is running on. It's an inherent problem in all MMO systems; it's hard to scale for a disproportionate amount of people close to each other. That's one of the reasons Jita and Diox are so lagyy as well on primetime. And if you're such a brilliant programmer, why haven't they hired you yet?
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:22:00 - [79] Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 11/08/2008 14:24:40 Originally by: Sannah Ur Edited by: Sannah Ur on 11/08/2008 14:09:13 Originally by: Jenny' JoJo 300 v 300 is not 90MB/Sec. 300 v 300 = Server gets 600 updates from 600 players, and sends 600 updates back. Learn CLIENT-SERVER Model. Clients NEVER update each other. Only the server does this. Ise with lag is CCP's servers cannot handle fleet pvp - we all know this. So stop with your 1st year computer science "I am expert" For ****s sake, READ! First, I was talking about a 150 vs 150 battle, that's 300 people. The 300 x 300 figure is because the server has to process and send information about 300 people to 300 players. The server INTERNALLY has problems handling the massive amount of data and computations. The 1kB/sec per player is just a number easy to use, it could be 10 or 100, just to show people how the amount of 'works' for the server increases for every person you add to a fight. Again, I am NOT saying the clients update each other, that's what you read in the little piece I wrote and you are simply wrong there. I'm talking about teh amount of data the server itself has to process and send to the clients. Regarding your "your 1st year computer science" comment; it's quite silly to make that kind of assumptions about people. I'm actually 28 and have been working in the parallel computing bussiness for 6 years now. P.s., just for kicks, could you describe what Tranquility looks like from a hardware point of few? You said "Lets say for each PC you need to transfer 1kB/second. If you have 2PCs, each one is getting 2kB/sec (you recieve your own info, as well as the info about the other guy, so that's 4kB/sec total. If you have 3 PCs nearby, each one of them recieves 3kBsec, that's 9kB sec total data. 4PCs = 4x4 = 16. See where this is going? 100 PCs = 100x100 = 10MB/sec. You guys are talking about 150x150 fleet battles, that's 300x300 = 90MB/sec." Which is quite different from internal. You cleary are talking about a p2p model and not a client server one. Nobody talks that way if you are talking about internal bandwith issues, and because you relised your mistake, that is why you have changed your tune. As for CCP's current system, there are plenty of articles on it due to the way CCP allocate whole solar systems to nodes baised on how quiet they were before DT (unless players inform them a 1000man battle is going to happen the DT before). Bottom line - Lag is Server side and can be reduced if CCP put a plan to change things. You know what their current plan is? To disconnet stations and space on seperate nodes. You know how much difference that would make in a 1000 man battle? Not a lot since even in stationless systems, the lag is just as bad. It would reduce jita server lag though. Back to point, CCP need to start modernising their 2-3 year old "Yaardware" as tehy called it back then. Other than Ramsan, everything they have is pretty old tech. BTW, 100v100 was 2-3 seconds module lag 3 years ago on a hotel 36.6k model. Now its lagged to hell for all people partaking in the fight. That kind of makes a mockery of your theory, does it not? Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Sannah Ur	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:51:00 - [80] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Which is quite different from internal. You cleary are talking about a p2p model and not a client server one. Nobody talks that way if you are talking about internal bandwith issues, and because you relised your mistake, that is why you have changed your tune. As for CCP's current system, there are plenty of articles on it due to the way CCP allocate whole solar systems to nodes baised on how quiet they were before DT (unless players inform them a 1000man battle is going to happen the DT before). Again, read what I wrote there, and read the reply I gave to your reply. PC = Player Character. I wasn't talking about clients sending info directly to other clients. I was talking about the amount of data being processed by the server. I didn't use the term client specifically because this wasn't a client bandwidth issue. Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Bottom line - Lag is Server side and can be reduced if CCP put a plan to change things. You know what their current plan is? To disconnet stations and space on seperate nodes. You know how much difference that would make in a 1000 man battle? Not a lot since even in stationless systems, the lag is just as bad. It would reduce jita server lag though. That would not solve a single thing since people close to each other would still be handled by the same machine. If the machine reaches capacity, stuff slows down. But please, explain how CCP could 'easily' change stuff so that they could handle a 500v500 battle? Because all I see is people telling them to 'fix stuff' and nobody giving them real solutions. Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Back to point, CCP need to start modernising their 2-3 year old "Yaardware" as tehy called it back then. Other than Ramsan, everything they have is pretty old tech. BTW, 100v100 was 2-3 seconds module lag 3 years ago on a hotel 36.6k model. Now its lagged to hell for all people partaking in the fight. That kind of makes a mockery of your theory, does it not? Hardly, since you nor I know what changed internally in that time. I'm pretty sure that if there's simple things that made battles perform worse then CCP would've changed them back.
Dracorimus Caldari Edge Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:43:00 - [81] Give it a break, we know it lags, we know it should not be like this, CCP are aware, are making changes, but it wont be anytime soon, so just stop making posts about it... Its nothing to do with "our" internet lagging, my connection is absolutely perfect to everywhere, its the server lagging if you look at it closely. So enough stupid lag whines, and CCP just get your finger out and sort it... - Die faster damnit!
Gracious NightAngel	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:50:00 - [82] Edited by: Gracious NightAngel on 11/08/2008 15:51:16 Originally by: Jowen Datloran This is clearly a time for CCP to raise subscription prices. Even if CCP raised the subscription to $30 month you would still be here saying the same dumb thing.. there is NO answer to lag. this is normal. Unless we all move to CCP home housing connect in house. Welcome to the WWW Would be nice if there was good internet provider.. I don't communication at this time can handle the load.
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:23:00 - [83] Originally by: marigoyla There are even less drastic measures. Simply limit the Fleet numbers. Sorry, this just won't work. CCP advertised that large fleet battles were an option in the game and that's what people want to do. It's logistically impossible to form small fleets, mainly because everyone wants to get into the action.
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:25:00 - [84] Originally by: Arna Padrona "****ed topic, blah, blah..." What do you suggest then? Say nothing? CCP have unsatisfied customers, and those customers will speak their minds. That's how CCP knows their players are upset about something... There is also the major issue of CCP promoting FW, fleet combat, and the damn servers can't deliver what they promise. That IS a problem. Pointing it out once a week does not make you ****ed - it makes you concerned and involved. /agreed. We all need to post about this issue as much as possible. It seems that CCP only resolves issues where people continual display their concern and passion. Nos, Speed, suicide ganking changes? They all came about from massive numbers of people posting a lot about those issues. We need to keep this up, then perhaps we will see some positive change here.
Spurty Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:38:00 - [85] to be fair, considering the number of clients connected all at the same time, it is quite the modern marvel (TQ)! Sure, its mostly 'pure luck' when you are in a big fight if you die before you load, which is rather frustrating, but it is what it is. I often SERIOUSLY (as in I have the machines to do it, just lazy at the moment, perhaps next time) feel that I might as well send in 10 x 14day trial accounts with my main to be the meat shield. At least with those odds, I might see some of the fight ;0 When we are all on gigabit network connections with almost zero ping times and intelligent routes for gaming traffic, we'll look back at these times and laugh! As it stands, my gigabit network stops the second I reach the Comcast Cable NIC. It seems to degrade rapidly from there ;-) Man goes to the doc, with a strawberry growing out of his head. Doc says "I'll give you some cream to put on it."
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:44:00 - [86] Originally by: Spurty to be fair, considering the number of clients connected all at the same time, it is quite the modern marvel (TQ)! Sure, its mostly 'pure luck' when you are in a big fight if you die before you load, which is rather frustrating, but it is what it is. I often SERIOUSLY (as in I have the machines to do it, just lazy at the moment, perhaps next time) feel that I might as well send in 10 x 14day trial accounts with my main to be the meat shield. At least with those odds, I might see some of the fight ;0 When we are all on gigabit network connections with almost zero ping times and intelligent routes for gaming traffic, we'll look back at these times and laugh! As it stands, my gigabit network stops the second I reach the Comcast Cable NIC. It seems to degrade rapidly from there ;-) I agree with you here, it is a marvel of modern technology and yes, ISP's are a major source of lag problems, however, when ping rates for US players match European players and the lag for some people in the same system does not follow any geographical pattern, where do you think the issue would exist?
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:59:00 - [87] Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 11/08/2008 17:00:31 Originally by: Spurty to be fair, considering the number of clients connected all at the same time, it is quite the modern marvel (TQ)! Sure, its mostly 'pure luck' when you are in a big fight if you die before you load, which is rather frustrating, but it is what it is. I often SERIOUSLY (as in I have the machines to do it, just lazy at the moment, perhaps next time) feel that I might as well send in 10 x 14day trial accounts with my main to be the meat shield. At least with those odds, I might see some of the fight ;0 When we are all on gigabit network connections with almost zero ping times and intelligent routes for gaming traffic, we'll look back at these times and laugh! As it stands, my gigabit network stops the second I reach the Comcast Cable NIC. It seems to degrade rapidly from there ;-) So when people do a 30 v 30 and everybody in local suffers 10 minute module lag, its the ISP's fault? ISP has 10 minute or 40 minute pings? People are happy to accept 10 seconds lag. But 40 minutes to activate warp is stupid especially in fleet battles. In the past, you only got lagged in 0.0 fleet battle nodes. Today, with FW out, there are battles going on all over teh place, and ccp do not have enough nodes and not enough powerful nodes so any node could be laggy. You just do not know it. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Macareus	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:41:00 - [88] solution: don't participate in large fleet fights. i know its stupid but apparently eve code has limitations that cause lag and it's too much work to fix. So enjoy the lag for at least 2-3 more years
Johncrab Minmatar Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:51:00 - [89] Originally by: Macareus solution: don't participate in large fleet fights... If you had a clue you would know that you can be 30 or even 100 jumps from a large fleet fight and still be lagging like crazy. That's the node system for you. And tbh, for the last few weeks lag has been intolerable, even if you are flying alone in empty systems. /signed Fix it please
Joakim Wasyl Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Sannah Ur Lets say for each PC you need to transfer 1kB/second. If you have 2PCs, each one is getting 2kB/sec (you recieve your own info, as well as the info about the other guy, so that's 4kB/sec total. If you have 3 PCs nearby, each one of them recieves 3kBsec, that's 9kB sec total data. 4PCs = 4x4 = 16. See where this is going? 100 PCs = 100x100 = 10MB/sec. You guys are talking about 150x150 fleet battles, that's 300x300 = 90MB/sec. All very interesting I'm sure, except it's wrong. It is the single core, of a single processor that Sol code is running on that is the reason for the lag. Theres another lag thread which actually has some Dev posts in it, which I would link if I could only find it amongst the other forty zillion lag threads. Also, sign me up as player who would like fleet battles of 60v60 with reasonable lag.
Pherusa Plumosa Minmatar Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:24:00 - [91] It is no DB-Problem, it is no bandwith problem, it is no hardware problem. I guess, it is still the Software code. In eve, a few systems run on one core. Ideally, one system runs on one core. But it is still not possible to divide the computation of one system to more cores (Jita on Sunday.. -.- ) So every system with 400+ (more or less) is lagging, because one single core can't handle the computations. I think CCP is already rewriting this part. The second problem is the load-balancing part. In contrary to most clusters, that can divide the data that has to be computed into parts and handle it parallel, but in Eve, data is created dynamically by the players. You have to make assumptions about player-movements, and reserve resources on your clusters, depending on the probabilty of the scenarios that might happen. (Similar Problem: Traffic Control. Any optimal solution to avoid traffic jams yet? no. ) And I guess this two Problems are only the tip of the iceberg. Even for the 2 problems mentioned above, there is no optimal solution, it is enough stuff to keep dozens of chairs busy. But let's assume, 500 vs. 500 would run lagfree? People would bring numbers until the battle would lag again, because the current game mechanic encourages and rewards more player numbers. __________________________________________________
Interscene Minmatar E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.08.11 23:27:00 - [92] People speak the truth saying lag wasn't this bad a few years ago for fleet battles - it really wasn't. I remember a big fight in VFK and another in 3JN with 100vs100 that had about ten/twenty seconds module lag or so. It wasn't pretty but it was managable. I can only assume it was because caps arn't as prevelant as they are now and each node handled less traffic. I must say, there's something to say for CCPs code - if it works the way I think it does. It's not too adaptive. VFK has been a troublespot for a while now, lag is almost managable there the last few weeks. I believe thats because it's leeching off neighbouring systems. The most recent lagfest was over a system not seeing a large amount of combat and it CRAWLED like you wouldn't believe. I think threads like this SHOULD become the norm. I want epic battles with manageable lag and without players ****ing about it visibly and constantly I don't think the needed action is going to be taken. The action needed now is DRASTIC. I think everyone here agree's that Big Fleet battles are Unmanagable* under current game conditions. What people also seem to agree is that neither small patches or small hardware upgrades are going to work. Obviously whatever has to be done to permit the sort of battles needed is DRASTIC. Expensive Hardware upgrades and lengthy/complicated code-rewrites. Frankly, I think CCP are probably going to baulk at the idea of it without pressure. This pressure needs to be put on CCP - Players arn't satisfied - whole alliances arn't satisfied. If you sympathise with this situation - it's time to spam this thread with your signitures. I'm not an IRON diplomat or a spokesmen, my words and opinions are my own. Good luck taking them off me, though.
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari	Posted - 2008.08.11 23:33:00 - [93] Originally by: Angry Cyno Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt) You know what, get the fk out of your 0.0 lag parties, out of the mega blobs, out of POS lag and get back into the game. Screw the people pushing you to get lagged and "have fun" in a fleet seeing no targets when the enemy jumps in. You should know the limitations of EVE's servers by now, if you don't then its your problem but I know one thing, I'm far happier now investing my SPs in low sec fights that I EVER** was in a Dreadnaught or a Carrier. So get out of there, have some fun, and enjoy EVE as it should be. (P.S. and forget about crappy POS warfare) --
Cruel Crow	Posted - 2008.08.11 23:37:00 - [94] Maybe CCP can be a internet provider?
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe Valhalla Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:49:00 - [95] I have been loading system since 2003! Omg CCP fix the bloody lag!!1
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Tri Optimum Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:30:00 - [96] Originally by: kittypaws Now you have lag with only 300 people in local! Quote: Now you are stuck in a small fleet figth for one hour just to load the grid, huh?! ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:50:00 - [97] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Angry Cyno Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt) You know what, get the fk out of your 0.0 lag parties, out of the mega blobs, out of POS lag and get back into the game. Screw the people pushing you to get lagged and "have fun" in a fleet seeing no targets when the enemy jumps in. You should know the limitations of EVE's servers by now, if you don't then its your problem but I know one thing, I'm far happier now investing my SPs in low sec fights that I EVER** was in a Dreadnaught or a Carrier. So get out of there, have some fun, and enjoy EVE as it should be. (P.S. and forget about crappy POS warfare) If people heed that advice, territorial warfare in EVE is dead and those who have 0.0 regions now can keep them forever. You need 150+ to attack one of those cynojammed systems ... I'm sorry, but EVE is designed for blobbing and CCP fails at supporting the current game design. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.12 10:52:00 - [98] Edited by: Malcanis on 12/08/2008 10:52:46 Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Angry Cyno Edited by: Angry Cyno on 10/08/2008 16:27:41 Now is time CCP start doing something about the massive lag in large fleet fights! sig with you name below to support this And btw i am not doing this because is fun so please do not post stupid reply`s Thanks again (yes this is a alt) You know what, get the fk out of your 0.0 lag parties, out of the mega blobs, out of POS lag and get back into the game. Screw the people pushing you to get lagged and "have fun" in a fleet seeing no targets when the enemy jumps in. You should know the limitations of EVE's servers by now, if you don't then its your problem but I know one thing, I'm far happier now investing my SPs in low sec fights that I EVER** was in a Dreadnaught or a Carrier. So get out of there, have some fun, and enjoy EVE as it should be. (P.S. and forget about crappy POS warfare) tbh theres plenty of small gang PvP to be found in 0.0 as well, if one only goes looking for it. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Bonny Lee Caldari Liga Freier Terraner Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:24:00 - [99] If you want to make a petition that is at least useful you should not only ask for lag-free large battles but extend your wish to very large, very very large and unbelievable large battles etc... Cause CCP solved the problems in some cases but we had no better idea then bringing enough people to lag again. So your petition atm is a huge fail.
Red Desire Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.12 12:52:00 - [100] CCP failed on all accounts. Ok they can't do crap about lag, still they could of found gameplay solutions which wouldn't let the lag impact to be so great on the players. Allowing that some players to have no lag at all or little lag compared to others who look at their screen for 1 hour -- fail Allowing to get killed while not being in control of your ship --- fail The list could go on, you can always look for solutions, but sticking your head in the sand ...hoping to go away ... faillll.
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.12 14:54:00 - [101] Want to end the epic lag fest fleet battles? Start with the reason they occur. 1) Sovereign ownership of regions/systems. Do away with the whole concept of space ownership. 2) POS's. Eliminate them as sources of income/ship building. No POS's, no reason for large fleets to come into a system to destroy them. Have all moon minerals be incorporated into new types of asteroids. 3)Have all outposts revert to NPC stations. The idea that the alliance controlling space has sole rights to the outposts is another reason for large fleet battles. 4)Limit fleet size. Make fleets only able to fit 50 pilots. While I know alliances will then form up multiple fleets, still it will discourage 250 vs 250 pilot size fleet from being used and maybe see new strategies developed. While my suggestions are harsh, so is mind numbing lag. Re-introduce sovereign based space only after lag is under control. As others have said, Eve is not what it is promoted to being. That is to say a game with epic space battles. So far all we get is epic lag. I hope CCP understands that new space based games are being developed. If they are at all like Eve and have far less lag, then I suspect a lot of pvp players will be dropping their Eve subscriptions for the new games. While I enjoy Eve, if something comes remotely close to Eve's game style and is better coded/equipped I will take my subscription fees there. I would suggest to whomever is the CEO or CFO that they tell their staff to keep us informed about just what they are doing to improve game play instead of blandly telling us it is being worked on. After all, when the subscriptions start free falling, they can't say they weren't informed.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:01:00 - [102] Originally by: Lrrp Want to end the epic lag fest fleet battles? Start with the reason they occur. 1) Sovereign ownership of regions/systems. Do away with the whole concept of space ownership. 2) POS's. Eliminate them as sources of income/ship building. No POS's, no reason for large fleets to come into a system to destroy them. Have all moon minerals be incorporated into new types of asteroids. 3)Have all outposts revert to NPC stations. The idea that the alliance controlling space has sole rights to the outposts is another reason for large fleet battles. 4)Limit fleet size. Make fleets only able to fit 50 pilots. While I know alliances will then form up multiple fleets, still it will discourage 250 vs 250 pilot size fleet from being used and maybe see new strategies developed. While my suggestions are harsh, so is mind numbing lag. Re-introduce sovereign based space only after lag is under control. As others have said, Eve is not what it is promoted to being. That is to say a game with epic space battles. So far all we get is epic lag. I hope CCP understands that new space based games are being developed. If they are at all like Eve and have far less lag, then I suspect a lot of pvp players will be dropping their Eve subscriptions for the new games. While I enjoy Eve, if something comes remotely close to Eve's game style and is better coded/equipped I will take my subscription fees there. I would suggest to whomever is the CEO or CFO that they tell their staff to keep us informed about just what they are doing to improve game play instead of blandly telling us it is being worked on. After all, when the subscriptions start free falling, they can't say they weren't informed. While you make some valid points, consider: * no space ownership, no station ownership, no moon POS - what does that leave to fight over? fighting lag by removing reasons to fight is not what I'd like to see in a PVP game and I don't want EVE to be limited to chokepoint gate camping and carebear ganking * 50 man fleets change nothing at all, why would they discourage 250 or 500 man blobs?
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:17:00 - [103] Reason to fight would be the moon minerals now in the asteroid belts. Perhaps without the POS's, fights would be with smaller class ships. I dunno, maybe make the asteroid belts with the moon style mins have a cyno style jammer built in. Something akin to not being able to use a mwd in a mission deadspace. I seem to remember alliances trying to control systems with 10/10 complexes so something similar. Anyway these are just thoughts and need to be expanded upon.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:52:00 - [104] Originally by: Lrrp Reason to fight would be the moon minerals now in the asteroid belts. Perhaps without the POS's, fights would be with smaller class ships. I dunno, maybe make the asteroid belts with the moon style mins have a cyno style jammer built in. Something akin to not being able to use a mwd in a mission deadspace. I seem to remember alliances trying to control systems with 10/10 complexes so something similar. Anyway these are just thoughts and need to be expanded upon. Exactly. People need to get it in their eads that the only reason people are in 0.0 in the firstplace is to make trillions from POS networks. Yes Trillions. This is why POS wars etc etc are creating superlag bombs. If your pos is making 15bil/month of reactions from a rare moon, you are going to want to get a army to defend it or attack it. People need to clue up. 0.0 is all about eve OIL = pos moon mins. Trickery, from promoting ratting to belt mining just so people can get enough numbers to maintain POS's is extreamly common. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)

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