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Thoran Karlien Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:42:00 - [61] Some reasoning that led me to a question: You got some money borrowed from other people. You promised to pay them interest. You invest said money somewhere and get more isk back from this. The people who lend you money don't want it back just now, but let it compound interest. So you invest it again. As long as you can invest it for more interest than your money lender are charging you, you make money from it, even if the money lender's roi starts to become bigger than the initial agreed return, because your own roi is bigger then, too. So the only problem that could trash this scenario is, that there aren't enough possibilities to invest for a high enough roi, correct? So when you are saying saving accounts are a problem, you are effectivly saying, there aren't enough possibilities for loans / secondary market anymore, because they are all filled, right? ____________________________ Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style!
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:16:00 - [62] Originally by: Hexxx EBANK is a business, not a charity. This goes both ways. The surplus that EBANK manages is used to compensate for future anticipated defaults or revenue interuptions. Bank stability was and is of paramount importance. You seem to be acting like a charity towards your 3% account holders by letting them keep the 3% interest rate, even though there are plenty of people that would be willing to open accounts at 2.5% or 2% interest. The 3% holders don't give you anything special, just their money, which anyone else could give you. So what's the logic behind fixing their interest rates at 3%? As someone else said, you're only alienating 1.5% account holders and other potential customers. It seems like a silly way to run a bank. As far as i know RL banks only give more to certian people for investing more, whereas if I remember correctly, you limited per-character holdings in a savings account, to make sure everyone gets something. This seems a lot like a charity.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:22:00 - [63] Originally by: Ambo But you're still calculating the percentage return based on the original investment rather than the amount currently invested. I appreciate that it adds up but you're still returning 3% per month, just on a larger amount of money. Think of it from my balance sheet's point of view: The amount I have in an ebank account is increasing every day, i.e. I'm letting you have more of my money to play with every day. Also, these projections of yours are over ridiculous timescales. Sure it's easy to say ebank will beat fin over a 2 year timeframe but just think about that for a minute... 2 years. It's a bloody long time in Eve. Well thats the confusing thing about compounding. Do you consider each interest payment as a dividend, and you NAV increases day by day, or do you consider it as if you're paid in shares and each time interest is paid, you get one more share, and thus more dividend each time it's paid. It depends how you want to cook your books. At the end of the day though, the principle is always 3b, as that's what you've put in. When you withdraw the ISK and realise the amount, then you get the 4.35b, which means EBANK needs to pull 1.35b out of the hat somewhere from spending that 3b and making the money over the course of the year. As to the timeframes, they are ridiculous, yes, so you can appreciate the effect of compounding, but equally see the relative safety of an account in terms of EBANK's exposure. I mean it's not exactly difficult for EBANK to provide 5.7% on about 5 accounts that have the potential of having over 9.16b after 3 years, and no customer has left an account alone while having ISK in the bank... so in all likelihood, I very much doubt we'll ever see a Savings account returning 5+% equivalent ROI, but I can't rule it out. That said however, you probably won't believe this, but we have had significant demand for year-long bonds, so yes a year is a long time in EVE, but it's certainly not out of the question! Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.08.12 00:28:00 - [64] Exhibit 1: Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Shar Tegral You really want to go down this road or would you rather just bite the bullet and apologize now before it gets ugly? Tick tock, still waiting. Or does Hexxx have your tongue? That was not necessary. Exhibit 2: Originally by: Hexxx I'll be posting on our internal forums in a bit. Ricdic and Proton, I am asking that you (for the moment) please refrain from posting in this thread. I'm also asking that the rest of our EBANK staff and Directors also refrain for the moment. I appreciate your help on this.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.12 01:13:00 - [65] Originally by: CornerStoner Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Hell, perhaps someone with a dunce cap at CCP will look over at ebank, and think "Huh... I guess an exchange and securities market can work. Let's build em the tools in game to make their lives easier."[/quote I woudn't hold my breath if I were you. Allthough RESX and EGSX are well run operations, the volume of shares traded is totally lacking. RESX requires an account; not a bad thing in itself, but not having free access to your ISK without an extensive wait and penalty is a bit of a pain. EGSX requires the use of a broker...another stumbling block. As far as being required to have an account with EBank to use their exchange: I think it's a good thing...if it will mesh seamlessly with the current EBank accounts. If another tedious step is required it will be just the third (or fourth if you count that other useless exchange) dead exchange. Today people want results real-time...And since time is somewhat compressed in EvE it becomes even more critical. EBANK accounts will seamlessly mesh with the exchange. Chairman of the Board of Directors \| www.eve-bank.net
Vhaluus	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:09:00 - [66] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Vhaluus I for one withdrew all my money from EBank after learning that I could not gain a savings account because essentially what it meant was that you could pay me a lower interest while still being able to use my money to make the isk to pay those who happened to have an account longer. That was a laughable statement to make. You were truly shocked that E-Bank was doing what they were doing to make themselves money and not to help you make more money? I know I frankly am shocked to discover a business is in the business of making money! If you don't like the way they do things don't invest in them. It's VERY simple. They aren't here to give you a good investment place, they are here to get people to give them their money as cheaply as possible and to exploit the massive demand in the investment market for a reliable investment. Frankly at this point I think they should be charging less than 3% if they are still filling up at 3%. hold on let me get this straight, my post is laughable because I did EXACTLY what you suggested in your second paragraph? Bravo on the well thought out logic there.
Vhaluus	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:11:00 - [67] Originally by: Khrillian Originally by: Hexxx EBANK is a business, not a charity. This goes both ways. The surplus that EBANK manages is used to compensate for future anticipated defaults or revenue interuptions. Bank stability was and is of paramount importance. You seem to be acting like a charity towards your 3% account holders by letting them keep the 3% interest rate, even though there are plenty of people that would be willing to open accounts at 2.5% or 2% interest. The 3% holders don't give you anything special, just their money, which anyone else could give you. So what's the logic behind fixing their interest rates at 3%? As someone else said, you're only alienating 1.5% account holders and other potential customers. It seems like a silly way to run a bank. As far as i know RL banks only give more to certian people for investing more, whereas if I remember correctly, you limited per-character holdings in a savings account, to make sure everyone gets something. This seems a lot like a charity. THIS is what I'm getting at as far as your current system not making business sense Hexxx. You guys seriously need to look at it from this sort of perspective. This would be the logical way to go for BOTH Ebank and its wider customer base.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:31:00 - [68] See how low people are willing to go. If you can accomplish your goals while only offering 1%, great. If you can only do it if you offer 3%, give everyone 3%. Newer customers cannot see the savings accounts as anything more than favoritism for old customers, with a line drawn at a specific date. Packtu'sa [NCIC] Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:33:00 - [69] Edited by: EBANK Ricdic on 12/08/2008 02:34:46 It's a lose lose situation. If we shut down Savings accounts we show an inconsistency and fall back on our promises. If we open up Savings accounts we risk damage done to the EBANK operation. Option 1 hurts our current customerbase Option 2 allows our customerbase to perform on equal ground but adds a very real financial risk to the EBANK operation Option 3 (releasing of bonds) will benefit both current and new customers and hopefully over time we can phase out the savings accounts through encouraging (not forcing) people to choose our bonds over their current savings accounts. Every company has special deals and rates from time to time. There were zero restrictions on savings accounts back when they were offered, anyone could recieve them. We cannot be blamed if a client chose not to take advantage of a special offer (which was always advised as a limited time offer).
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:48:00 - [70] I guess it seems people are pretty interesting in earning 3%. I guess if there was a guy they could trust that had extra savings accounts, they could buy bonds from him. If only there was a guy. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I guess it seems people are pretty interesting in earning 3%. I guess if there was a guy they could trust that had extra savings accounts, they could buy bonds from him. If only there was a guy. Aren't there a lot of people offering more? miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
Vhaluus	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:59:00 - [72] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Edited by: EBANK Ricdic on 12/08/2008 02:34:46 It's a lose lose situation. If we shut down Savings accounts we show an inconsistency and fall back on our promises. If we open up Savings accounts we risk damage done to the EBANK operation. Option 1 hurts our current customerbase Option 2 allows our customerbase to perform on equal ground but adds a very real financial risk to the EBANK operation Option 3 (releasing of bonds) will benefit both current and new customers and hopefully over time we can phase out the savings accounts through encouraging (not forcing) people to choose our bonds over their current savings accounts. Every company has special deals and rates from time to time. There were zero restrictions on savings accounts back when they were offered, anyone could recieve them. We cannot be blamed if a client chose not to take advantage of a special offer (which was always advised as a limited time offer). no option 1 hurts PART of your current customer base while giving you a much, much larger customer base.
Vhaluus	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:00:00 - [73] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I guess it seems people are pretty interesting in earning 3%. I guess if there was a guy they could trust that had extra savings accounts, they could buy bonds from him. If only there was a guy. AC since you didn't want cross posting in your offering, kindly don't cross post and advertise in this one. This thread has already been derailed enough as is.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:05:00 - [74] Originally by: Vhaluus Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I guess it seems people are pretty interesting in earning 3%. I guess if there was a guy they could trust that had extra savings accounts, they could buy bonds from him. If only there was a guy. AC since you didn't want cross posting in your offering, kindly don't cross post and advertise in this one. This thread has already been derailed enough as is. The difference, is that my thread is for investments. This thread is for discussions regarding the ebank accounts, more specifically the savings accounts and the future of accounts for ebank. My post here serves more purposes than to simply advertise a bond issue that people aren't really interested in. you fail. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:06:00 - [75] Oh and since you fail on multiple levels, who the hell do yo think caused this thread to be created in the first place? Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Vhaluus	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:07:00 - [76] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Vhaluus Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 I guess it seems people are pretty interesting in earning 3%. I guess if there was a guy they could trust that had extra savings accounts, they could buy bonds from him. If only there was a guy. AC since you didn't want cross posting in your offering, kindly don't cross post and advertise in this one. This thread has already been derailed enough as is. The difference, is that my thread is for investments. This thread is for discussions regarding the ebank accounts, more specifically the savings accounts and the future of accounts for ebank. My post here serves more purposes than to simply advertise a bond issue that people aren't really interested in. you fail. and what purpose is that exactly?
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:16:00 - [77] Originally by: Vhaluus and what purpose is that exactly? Have you been paying attention to any of the discussion going on in this thread? Come on Vhaluus. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:23:00 - [78] Originally by: Vhaluus Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Edited by: EBANK Ricdic on 12/08/2008 02:34:46 It's a lose lose situation. If we shut down Savings accounts we show an inconsistency and fall back on our promises. If we open up Savings accounts we risk damage done to the EBANK operation. Option 1 hurts our current customerbase Option 2 allows our customerbase to perform on equal ground but adds a very real financial risk to the EBANK operation Option 3 (releasing of bonds) will benefit both current and new customers and hopefully over time we can phase out the savings accounts through encouraging (not forcing) people to choose our bonds over their current savings accounts. Every company has special deals and rates from time to time. There were zero restrictions on savings accounts back when they were offered, anyone could recieve them. We cannot be blamed if a client chose not to take advantage of a special offer (which was always advised as a limited time offer). no option 1 hurts PART of your current customer base while giving you a much, much larger customer base. Fortunately, everyone is free to vote with their ISK. EBANK is probably the most democratic business in all of EVE in that regard. Chairman of the Board of Directors \| www.eve-bank.net
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:29:00 - [79] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Vhaluus and what purpose is that exactly? Have you been paying attention to any of the discussion going on in this thread? Come on Vhaluus. I second this sentiment.
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Shadarle I second this sentiment. I don't. He brought up a good point and should not be ridiculed for it. miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:49:00 - [81] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Edited by: EBANK Ricdic on 12/08/2008 02:34:46 It's a lose lose situation. If we shut down Savings accounts we show an inconsistency and fall back on our promises. If we open up Savings accounts we risk damage done to the EBANK operation. Option 1 hurts our current customerbase Option 2 allows our customerbase to perform on equal ground but adds a very real financial risk to the EBANK operation Option 3 (releasing of bonds) will benefit both current and new customers and hopefully over time we can phase out the savings accounts through encouraging (not forcing) people to choose our bonds over their current savings accounts. Every company has special deals and rates from time to time. There were zero restrictions on savings accounts back when they were offered, anyone could recieve them. We cannot be blamed if a client chose not to take advantage of a special offer (which was always advised as a limited time offer). I don't think you can hold up your reputation for stability (in your offering) as a defense. After all, by making savings accounts limited, you became inconsistent and fell back on your promises. It seems like you're picking and choosing which promises to fall back on. Originally by: Hexxx Fortunately, everyone is free to vote with their ISK. EBANK is probably the most democratic business in all of EVE in that regard. Unfortunately, I cannot vote by holding my loan ISK hostage. Packtu'sa [NCIC] Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:51:00 - [82] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Edited by: EBANK Ricdic on 12/08/2008 02:34:46 It's a lose lose situation. If we shut down Savings accounts we show an inconsistency and fall back on our promises. If we open up Savings accounts we risk damage done to the EBANK operation. Option 1 hurts our current customerbase Option 2 allows our customerbase to perform on equal ground but adds a very real financial risk to the EBANK operation Option 3 (releasing of bonds) will benefit both current and new customers and hopefully over time we can phase out the savings accounts through encouraging (not forcing) people to choose our bonds over their current savings accounts. Every company has special deals and rates from time to time. There were zero restrictions on savings accounts back when they were offered, anyone could recieve them. We cannot be blamed if a client chose not to take advantage of a special offer (which was always advised as a limited time offer). I guess if you want a fair way to keep the 3% accounts, you could allow their owners to sell them. This way the market value of the account would rise above the ISK balance, so they would really only be getting a return of 2% or whatever the market would bear. This appears to be a win-win situation if you feel there is a legitimate public-relations issue, although to be honest I think the Shar debacle was much worse for your image, you can pick your battles as you see fit.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:01:00 - [83] Originally by: RaWBLooD Originally by: Shadarle I second this sentiment. I don't. He brought up a good point and should not be ridiculed for it. he didn't bring up any point. He missed an obvious observation. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Nido Gentz	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:02:00 - [84] Originally by: Khrillian I guess if you want a fair way to keep the 3% accounts, you could allow their owners to sell them. This way the market value of the account would rise above the ISK balance, so they would really only be getting a return of 2% or whatever the market would bear. This appears to be a win-win situation if you feel there is a legitimate public-relations issue, although to be honest I think the Shar debacle was much worse for your image, you can pick your battles as you see fit. Even if this was a good idea, it would be a logistical nightmare to carry out.
Vhaluus	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: RaWBLooD Originally by: Shadarle I second this sentiment. I don't. He brought up a good point and should not be ridiculed for it. he didn't bring up any point. He missed an obvious observation. If your 'obvious observation' was that people cant be that interested in savings accounts because they aren't investing in your bond then your logic is deeply flawed. If that's not it, well then yes I will have to admit that I am missing it.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:07:00 - [86] Originally by: Vhaluus If your 'obvious observation' was that people cant be that interested in savings accounts because they aren't investing in your bond then your logic is deeply flawed. If that's not it, well then yes I will have to admit that I am missing it. You are correct, you are missing it. For the sake of "breaking you in", I'd rather you think about the possibilities. I really think understanding the purpose of this thread and threads like it will go a long way into helping you understand the secondary market, lack of a secondary market, investments in eve, and pretty much a great lot of things market related. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:07:00 - [87] Originally by: Nido Gentz Originally by: Khrillian I guess if you want a fair way to keep the 3% accounts, you could allow their owners to sell them. This way the market value of the account would rise above the ISK balance, so they would really only be getting a return of 2% or whatever the market would bear. This appears to be a win-win situation if you feel there is a legitimate public-relations issue, although to be honest I think the Shar debacle was much worse for your image, you can pick your battles as you see fit. Even if this was a good idea, it would be a logistical nightmare to carry out. EBANK could mitigate this by 1) charging transfer fees (say 30-50mil) and 2) requiring that the entire account be sold at once. This might even make things easier as it would allow and encourage consolidation of accounts. Even if nobody actually sells their account, they would still be getting a lower rate of return. I don't know how the EBANK database is setup, but I'd imagine they'd only have to change a single value (the accountownerID or whatever) in the whole database.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:19:00 - [88] Or they could, ya know, wait until releasing the exchange (along with bonds, UI improvements, etc.), and as part of the database changeover, convert all savings accounts into checking accounts. Packtu'sa [NCIC] Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.08.12 05:48:00 - [89] Originally by: Packtu'sa I don't think you can hold up your reputation for stability (in your offering) as a defense. After all, by making savings accounts limited, you became inconsistent and fell back on your promises. It seems like you're picking and choosing which promises to fall back on. Actually we have always limited savings accounts to subdue excessive growth. However we have always turned them back on when growth has been required once more. However now we find we are growing at such a rate that we don't need to turn savings back on. Plus we have the new bonds system coming out shortly so re-releasing savings would not be wise. I believe if you check our previous posts (namely the ones made during Phase advancements) you will find that the savings accounts have always been regulated. We have never picked certain individuals. We simply switch on, switch off. There's no favoritism or elitism here. Every single person had the chance to get themselves a savings account when they were available and they will get the chance to get themselves a savings account if they ever become available again. It's the customer's responsibility to take up special or well advertised limited time deals. K-mart won't give me a 20% discount 2 months after their 20% discount stocktake sale is completed. Kmart aren't discriminating against me. I had the opportunity to take them up on the offer knowing full well it wouldn't always be available
TheVad Amarr Metalworks	Posted - 2008.08.12 06:39:00 - [90] Edited by: TheVad on 12/08/2008 06:41:40 This whole dicussion is rediculous! EBANK'S internal operations is its own business. It offers various services and a client can use them or not, PERIOD. EBANK offers stable services with relative protection on the these services(interest bearing accounts and loans). Soon it will offer other services like a stock exchange and RIPO's. Clients can make thier own decision on how they want to invest thier ISK. This is a buisness folks and obviously even with the 1.5 interest rate account, people are deciding the 1.5 interest rate is better then nothing. Trust me when I say EBANKS interest rates is purley based on supply and demand. TheVad Project Manager & Chief Editor\| www.eve-bank.net

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