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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 17:07:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/08/2008 17:11:00
Eve ships wouldn't hurt Star Trek ships for a lot of reasons.
lasers don't even hurt Federation ships with the shields down let alone up.
Federation ships could just stay in warp and go in circles around Eve ships and be invisible, while firing outside the range of Eve ships scanners and weapons . This is the same reason Star wars ships don't stand a chance they cannot see or fire back. Federation ships fight at above light speed at range's eve ships can only dream off. Eve ships fight at under 1km/s
Federation ships can shoot cloaked Eve ships with psi crew members on the target button.
In fact I bet a Federation shuttle could beat an Eve battleship.
Federation ships could transport crew, ammo, fuel whatever out of Eve ships with shields down from 20km+ away. Or transport bombs inside. Amour tank ships don't stand a chance.
If the Eve ships somehow almost won, a crew member on the Federation would come out with some random techno mumbojumbo and the Eve should would power down then implode.
Federation ships could warp in, blow gates up, warp out, wait a month for to system to fall to bits then warp in. Just no telling when or where they will come from due to no gates needed.
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Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 18:04:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/08/2008 18:05:55
"/torpedo's and phasers destroy shields but leave armor unscathed"
Not likely, they would cut the ship in half. But even so the shields drop and then all of a sudden the Eve ships reactor and life support systems are drifting in space due to a tranporter beam. No shields is death.
Photon torpedoes are the next step beyond normal anti matter torpedoes. I think that might blow an Eve ships amour down pretty fast. 2.7 x 1017 Joules of energy or equivalent to about a x64.44 megaton nuclear explosion all at once. That's a basic torpedo not the heavy hitting Photon torpedoes.
If that fails the Federation ships just swap to Quantum torpedoes which get power from zero-point energy, bye, bye Eve Titan let alone a battleship.
EDIT: More to the point Federation ships can stop you cloneing. Beam you out the pod then kill you.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 18:08:00 -
[3]
"New Ship Pilot: /wakes up a couple of light years away. Holly cow, that was some lag, last thing I saw my tank was holding...."
It wouldnt take long for Federation ships to cotton on to beaming you outside the pod so you cannot clone.
Caption to the psi crew members hey we killed him last fight, scan his mind and find out why. Sir he can clone from the pod, right beam him out the pod.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 21:22:00 -
[4]
"if you look at just the numbers star trek ships would be looking at a fight of atleast 10 on one if not more."
But that wouldn't be a problem as the star trek ships fight at light speeds. As long as the Star Trek ship stay at very easy warp factor 1 the Eve ships cannot target, shoot back, hit or even see the Star Trek ships. The same reason Star Wars ships don't stand a chance. On top of that the Star Trek ships can shoot the Eve ships from a nice safe 15au distance. After all they are used to fighting at above light speeds. They make micowarps interceptors look like snails.
Due to the advance tech lasers and things around that power level don't even dint Star Trek amour let alone shields. Every time lasers ships target star trek ships they laugh at it. Once the command crew even joked according to the old rules they were meant to rise shields but why bother. The target ships couldn't hurt them with lasers.
Star Trek shields are a bit freaky in that they can take unlimited amounts of damage from certain damage types. They fly into a suns cornea at one point without a problem. It doesnt matter how much you hit them, if you hit them with the wrong weapon type the shields dont drop in power.
Then add on all the psychics and stuff in Star Trek and its more of an advantage. Eve has nothing to counter psychics. There is 1 psychic in all the Eve empires and she is unstable, compared that to planets full of them in Star Trek.
"Teleporters, uhu, never heard of em so, no, you can not use them."
What do you use to get cargo out of tins from 2.5kms away? I always thought it was a teleporter.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 22:03:00 -
[5]
"You would be against the entire Eve universe, which covers over 5000 systems"
Like they would ever all team up. Perhaps half of them but no all. Even if they did all team up your talking very tiny numbers of systems with a small industrial capacity.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.13 21:39:00 -
[6]
"EVE ships vs SciF
Most ST ships are only Cruiser size"
You say that like larger ships are better. The tech level of a ship matters far more then size and when it comes to size the smaller the better, at least for war ships. Larger ships tend to be easier to hit and slower. I would much perfew to take a small high tech ship over a large low tech Eve ship any day.
Take the Executor Class at 17,484 meters what use is it when it can only hit slow targets and cannot even use sensors to see faster than light targets or shoot faster then light targets.
A better example is the Defiant V Enterprise as they are from the same universe. The Defiant is 122metres warship yet it has more firepower, faster, more agile and is tougher then a 646metre Galaxy class star ship.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.16 12:36:00 -
[7]
"Sorry, but a Super-Stardestroyer OMGWTFPWNBBQs all"
That has to be one of the worst ships every made, it's so large and slow its next to impossible to miss yet it weapons cannot hit anything moving at a decent speed and have a very short range.
In most fights it would get hit by everything and fail to hit anything in return. It's so large you don't even need to target just shoot in its general direction.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.16 12:43:00 -
[8]
"This is the same series where the Imperial Fleet dropped out of hyperspace at the edge of the Hoth system and both sides were immediately aware of each other's presence. SW ships have FTL sensors, they have been in space for over 25,000 years."
Wasn't is they were immediately aware after coming out of hyperspace? Admiral Ozzel exited hyperspace too close to the star system and the Rebel early warning sensors detected the fleet. They didn't detect the fleet during hyperspace. Never seen any indication Star wars ships can track other ships in warp. They certainly don't fight at warp speeds.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.17 10:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Pottsey on 17/08/2008 10:19:47
" aside from that fact that it launches swarms of Tie-fighters the sheer number of weapon systems on it would keep pretty much anything from getting close."
That's the whole point most other ships don't need to get close. They can blow it up long before it gets chance to respond and get into firing range. Its so large, slow and with such short range weapons it doesnt stand a chance. Tie-fighters are useless against ships moving above light speed. Sheer number of weapon systems are useless when the weapons are short range and only hit slow ships.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:33:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/08/2008 13:34:24
"Stargate ships could pwn any star trek ships"
Stargate ships suffer from the same problem many do against Star Trek. Stargate ships fight at sub light speeds at short range. Star Trek ships fight at over light speeds at silly long range's. All a Star Trek ship needs to do is warp in circles and fire and the Stargate ship cannot do much to fight back.
As long as Star Trek ships stay in warp and fight they are pretty much invincible against many other ships.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.20 09:51:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Pottsey on 20/08/2008 10:21:43
"star trek ships cant "warp in circles"
they would have to fight at sub light speed."
Why? I have seen them fight at warp speeds before and turn in warp lots of time. They never drop out of warp to change course or direction. Why can they not warp in circles and fire like they do on the show? I am 100% sure the Voyager fires weapons at above warp speed. I have no doubt that at sub light speeds Stargate ships would stand a very good chance at beating Star Trek ships. It's very clear star trek ships can interact with objects while they are in warp unlike pretty much eveyone else.
" Dont give me this bull shit about how they are immune to lasers as stated in a link,
some one posted, a ship in star trek hit the enterprise with a laser after picard gave the order for "forward shields to max"
even with shields to max. the laser blast still rocked the enterprise, maby only a little bit,"
They raised shields because the directive they follow says they have to put shields up even when lasers are shooting but its old. Picard joked to Riker about not needing to rise shields and the rules are outdated. Yes the ships shakes but it takes zero damage.
Star Trek lore has always been strange in that certain types of energy do no harm to shields. The borg take it to an extreme after a few shots a weapon does zero damage. But the Enterprise does it for lasers and other old style weapons. Another ship did it when flying into the sun corna. How much energy was that putting out? It did zero damage because of the shields which could take unlimited amount of that type of energy.
" star wars ships use turbo laser cannons that are over one billion times more powerful then that blast. who's to say eve lasers cant take one down, they may not be as powerful as the star wars ships but they would put up a fight."
Again it's the crazy way Star Trek works, it doesn't matte if they are billion times more powerful they are still lasers so they don't do any harm. It might shake the ship but it won't penetrate the nav shields let along the real shields.
Underneath the real shields are nav shields I think they called it that, anyway whatever its name its stops all forms of lasers even when the mains shields are down. Federation ships have a special defence against lasers which are independent from the main shields.
EDIT: It was the Navigational deflector which stoped the lasers. It deflects space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles, lasers and primitive projectile weapons making the ship immune from those. Miranda-, Constellation- and Soyuz-classes of ships dont have this defence.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.20 22:36:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pottsey on 20/08/2008 22:41:06
"and it's rediculous to believe that any weapon system could track a target in normal space time while that ship is at warp"
According to the technical manual your wrong. Federation ships and torpedoes have FTL sensors and computers that process at FTL speeds page 129.
During the show there have been times where a torpedo was fired from impulse then went to warp and fired from warp e.c.t. New ships like the Voyager and even the real old ships like the Enterprise NX-01 have fired weapons while at warp.
A federation ships can shoot torpedoes at targets with the torpedoes at warp speed. The kinetic damage alone from the speed is enough to take out most ships from none Star Trek universe's. So I stand by what I said Star Trek could just shoot stargate and star wars ships from warp speed.
EDIT: There have been times where torpedoes where shot from 600 million km away and all hit there target. This is the reason Star Trek ships outrange most other ships, they can sit lightyears away and fire at you.
"The problem with your points is that they all rely on laws of physics that vary from one IP to another."
I assume if a ship can do something in the Star Trek or Eve universe then that ship can do it in the other universe if it somehow crossed over. Otherwise it becomes impossible to really compare. That or any ship crossing over to another universe would stop working right away as the laws of physics its tech is based on no longer apply along with the fual and ammo problems. reactors shut down, life support goes off e.c.t
I also assume tech with the same name between universes is really the same. for example I assume lasers are the same and not different weapons with the same name between universes. Same for railguns and other weapons. They might work a little differently due to laws of physics change's but they are still the same weapon. Unless its very clear they are not the same.
"On the other hand, to refute your "firing in warp" point; Star Trek ships cannot keep their shields up while at warp,"
What since when? Are you thinking of cloaking that lowers shields. Warp doesn't as far as I recall. Then again it has been years since I watched Voyager. Got any links that say shields drop? With the amounts of fights at warp speeds I dont bealive shields go down.
" but what you are spouting is the same old stuff that's shot down time and again since the whole 'vs. debates' started. A Good site & forums which took centre place in these sorts of 'debates' in the last few years,"
At a glance I don't see my bits being shot down. I see them ignore things like deflecting lasers in the Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes on the front page. But it's a big site, could you link to bits that shout my ideas down? I quickly looked on the forum and found some people talking about lasers and tuber lasers being deflected. No one shot that idea down. Didn't see anything talking about fighting at warp speed.
"Pottsey that's a blatent 'no limits fallacy' and proven untrue in other ST episodes when Solar radiation is a threat"
That's because the Enterprise wasn't the ship with the adjusted shields so Solar radiation is a threat. At least I don't think it was the Enterprise pretty sure it was a test ship. Been over 10 years since I watched that episode.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.22 20:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Pottsey on 22/08/2008 20:23:54
"even if star trek could fire torps in warp the max yield of a photon torp is only 60MT."
That's because even without the warhead its more deadly than most weapons. A two meter long, two hundred and fifty kilogram object, travelling at way over 500,000,000 KM/S is pretty deadly without the warhead backing it up. The Kinetic damage from that is crazy, far higher than 60MT I bet. Anyone want to do the math. Anyway photon torp are the lowest end torps on a Star Trek ship. If they shot a photon torp and it did no damage they would just swap to the high end torps.
"As to the rest, you never see a ST ship fight at warp against a non-warp target,"
"Untill the later DS9 early voyager season Comabat in warp never really happened."
It happened all the time even in the older stuff. Its rare because no one in their right mind would move that slow in a fight.
Star Trek, The Motion Picture the Enterprise is going at warp 1 and gets stuck in warp due to an engines malfunction. They fire a torpedo to destroy an asteroid without coming out of warp. Then after the asteroid is destroyed they fix the engine and slow to impulse.
Episode Balance of Terror Kirk orders "Full ahead Mr Sulu, maximum warp" then orders to fire on the Romulan ship. Romulan ships back then didn't have warp drives. In fact wasn't the whole reason the Federation won the first war with the Romulans was due to the warp drive.
Episode Elaan of Troyius had some warp 6/7 speed battles between the Enterprise.
Episode The Ultimate Computer. An old class ore freighter ship which has no warp drive is shot at. The Enterprise is cruising at warp 3 then accelerates to warp 4 for the attack and the ship is destroyed
" When earth was under attack by Anubis the plasma blasts he fired where equal to a 1000MT nuke. and the earth ships now with asguard shields and weapons would never be hurt by that amount of energy let alone a 60 MT nuke."
Photon torpedo are low powered torpedoes, the hard hitting torpedoed use ZPM like power.
You know those ZPM's zero-point energy modules that power ships in Stargate. Star Trek use the same energy as that per torpedoe (Quantum torpedoes). All the power one Stargate ship has focused into 1 torpedoe. Then multiple that power as more then 1 torpedo is shot. Quantum torpedoes would devastate starwars and stargate ships. Quantum torpedoes derive their destructive power from zero-point energy. ZPM like power in a torpedoes moveing at over 500,000,000 KM/S.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.22 21:03:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Pottsey on 22/08/2008 21:04:51
" ok so now that we are entering the realm of "IF" "BUT" all a stargate ship would have to do is beam the torp that the star trek ship fired right back at them or use the rail guns as point defence
blarg"
Little problem Stargate ships cannot fire point defence at something moving faster than the speed of light. Pretty sure they cannot beam something moving that fast. Stargate have the same problem as Startrek in that they cannot beam with shields up. If one ship droped shields it opens them up to none torp/missile weapon fire. Plus torps are not used one at a time normally a volly is sent. Can they even beam up more than one FTL object at once? If they could why don't they ever beam darts and other slow moving weapons let FTL moving ones? Realistically both ships would have shields up in a fight. Beaming teach doesn't really factor into it. Its far to short range and to risky.
Anyway if StarTrek met Stargate it would be super boring all they would want to do is talk all day about humanity and peace.
I recon though Stargate V Starwars would be interesting.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.22 22:42:00 -
[15]
" all a stargate ship would have to do is beam the torp"
I just remember torpedoes have their own shields. So no beaming.
" however there is one problem with you fighting at warp theory. "
It's not a theory they do it all the time. I clearly listed episodes and movies where they do it from the original Star trek to the newer ones.
" Earth ships can teleport just fine with shields up thanks to Asgard tech."
No they cannot. First episode of the latest session "In order to beam Sheppard and Dex out, the shields of the Daedalus are lowered temporarily, and Michael's cruiser is able to score a few direct hits taking the Asgard weapons and engines off-line" Cannot think of any time they didnt lower shields.
"Stargate ships would most likely own."
Yes they do if they can hit their target. My point is a Startrek ship could stay at warp and never get hit by the Stargate ship, yet the Startrek ship could fire back. That and I believe the Star trek high powered weapons match the Asgard weapons if not do more damage then the Asgard. Like I said before the power source for the whole entire Daedalus is the same type of power source Startrek use per torpedo. Surly that gives star trek the edge. Asgard are one race the Federation is made up of 150+ race's each an empire in their own right and many who have been in space a very long time. The humans are new in space but the other Federation race's are not thats why the ships are so advance.
"Naquada enhanced nukes"
They are about the same power level as the weakest Federation torpedoes at my estermate.
" why is it that in star trek first contact that they did not just zip around the Borg cube at warp 7-9?"
I believe most of the Federation's defense force where doing that. A defense force is normally made up of a lot of ships, far more then was on screen. We only had what 10 on screen? Either the Borg destroyed 90%+ of the fleet or the rest of the fleet was at light speeds and we couldn't see them as we are viewing the battle from a handful of ships moving at sub light speed. What makes the most sense to me is most ships we could see had battle damage and lost warp power. The other possibilities are phasers are generally impulse speed weapons perhaps they wanted to use phasers at close range? Well the battle had been going on for a while and was almost at the end. Who knows perhaps the Borg used some anti warp field that stopped ships staying in warp? Perhaps there was no tactical advantage in being in warp as the Borg can hit ships in warp just as well as sub warp. For all we know the ships where fighting at warp and only dropped out of warp due to damage or as they got close to Earth.
Most of the ships being at warp and a handfull not I think is the best bet.
Well we all know the real reason, warping in circles and firing torps at long range would be boring on screen. The end of a battle at sub light speeds with the planet earth in the background looks far better on screen.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.22 23:49:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Pottsey on 22/08/2008 23:51:43
"bull shit now thats just speculation"
Of course its speculation what else did you expect? You asked a questions where the only decent answer is speculation. The only answer that I can give without speculation is they can if they want to fight at warp speeds. Sometimes for some reason they choose not to. We have no info on the battle only the last couple of mins of the battle.
"Well, considering they can fire their own weapons without lowering their shields, I donm't see why not. There are plenty of shots showing ships firing their weapons while their shileds are taking massive damage"
Well they cannot use beam tech with shields, I gave you a recent episode where they almost lost the ship as they had to drop shields to use beam tech.
" The federation ships have perefected this to the extent of firing it on every torpedo?"
Yes for the war ships but no for none war ships. The none war ships have a stock of those torpedoes along with a stock of weaker normal photon torpedos. The war ships we have only ever seen shoot the powerfull torpedo's.
"If you're talking about Quantum torpedoes, yeah.. still not taking out solar systems..."
That's because they are focused making them more deadly. Instead of a solar system wide explosion you have that much energy forced into a small blast area. An explosion that covers a solar system is well useless, not only does it hit you and friendly targets but it means spreading the energy around a vast area. Focuseing that energy in a blast the size of a ship is more deadly, with the crazy strength of Star Trek shields that can fly into suns. You need to focus that energy. The last time Quantum torpedoes was used the explosion visually resembled a supernova but the blast area was contained in a small area. There have been lots of refrence's to changeing the blast size of torpedoes.
Torpedoes have at least 16 settings and you can modifier more if needed with a few hours work.
" Fine, if Earth ships can't hit it, they would just fly away. Can Federation ships fly at 31,250 ly per hour?"
It looks like it depending on the ship. http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Warp_factor explains how to covert warp to ly per hour. Enterprise E has a cruise speed of up to warp 9.985 which I believe is over 31,250 ly per hour. It can push faster for short periods of time. The Enterprise D was a cruise speed of 9.6, which it could go over for short bursts. I think 9.6 is below 31,250 ly per hour.
A very old ship like the Voyager maximum warp is 9.975
"By comparison a photon torpedo does 64.5 megatons."
As I said many times before a photon torpedoed can be adjusted to do more or less than 64.5 megatons. It can be adjusted up to destroy small planet which is a lot more then 64.5 megatons. A photon torpedo is the low end of torpedo you don't even get photon torpedos on Federation war ships so why does it matter? If war broke out between Stargate and StarTrek photon torpedoes would not be used in fleet battles.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.23 10:15:00 -
[17]
"For example, You can't travel faster than warp 10, except when its made possible to advance the plot."
That's not a inconsistency the scale of warp in the 23rd century is not the same as the 22nd century. Warp is a sliding scale based on current tech. Warp 5 in the early years of Enterprise 1 is much slower then warp 5 in the years of Enterprise D. In the 22nd century warp scaled from 1 to 40+ in the 23rd its 1 to 10. In the 24th century they re added warp 11, 12, 13 into the scale instead of having warp 10 as max. Really warp 11 in the 24th C is today's warp 9.9999999999 or something like that.
It's not really practical to go warp factor 9.99999. Now speed up to warp 9.999999. So every so often in the timeline as speeds get faster they readjust what speeds each warp represents. It seems to get adjusted once a century.
I do agree with your point about making new tech up. I mentioned it ages ago how they can never lose as they invent technobable. But it's not that much worse than other shows like Stargate Atlantis. It thought SGL had the right ballance but Atlantis is just as bad in fact I think it's getting worse recently. It feels like they are falling into the trap of lets use McKay to do something fancy to got us out this plot problem just like star trek did. Stargate needs to go back to the early SGL days in how they told storys. Atlantis has fallen to much into random new tech.
" Stargate ships travel to other galaxy a star trek ship cant do that so id say Stargate ships are quite a bit faster."
Well we have the light years per hour both ships can go at and Stargate ships are not faster. Well depends on which ship we are looking at.
There is a reason Star Trek ships don't go out the galaxy as there is a Galactic Barrier or Great Barrier which is an energy field that surrounds the Milky Way Galaxy in the Star Trek universe. The field completely encompasses the galaxy and prevents travel beyond the edge. It's never explained if the barrier is natural or artificial. Most ships that try and go though the barrier end up in lots of little bits.
The Enterprise and lots of have tried to leave the Milky Way Galaxy before.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.23 10:35:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/08/2008 10:35:37
"Anyway as I said, CANON evidence suggests no more than mid KT-range yields for photon Torpedos."
Photon Torpedos are missile-like casings with lots of warhead options.
Those low yeild torps are 20+ year old torps at low settings. Not only that but cannon evidence says torps have 16 settings per Torpedo and 10 power levels with lvl 10 violateing strategic arms limitation treaties. They dont have to use the lowest power level setting. On top of that there are lots of torpedo types. The Voyager had type 6 torpedos up to type 10 and beyond with type 6 more then 8x more powerful then than mid KT-range. Type 10 could hold warheads that destroy small planets.
Canon evidence shows up to and beyond destroying small planets and large asteroids which is far beyound mid KT-range yields. Even the old Enterprise had enough firepower to destory large asteroids.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:18:00 -
[19]
"Even at Maximum warp, Voyager would've taken I think 75 years to return to the Alpha Quadrant..."
Yoyager series was based on a false premise. For the ship to take 75 year it would have needed to travel at a slow warp of 7.9 to fly 75k light years which is nowhere near its max cruising speed or max total speed. Voyager never made any sense they had the supplies and fuel to travel back to the Federation in warp without stopping in a fraction of the time it took them.
I don't see how Stargate ships with their current speeds can travel between galaxy's as fast as they do. The math doesn't add up. Unless the Pegasus galaxy is very close to the Milky Way, closer then the nearest real galaxy.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.23 23:02:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/08/2008 23:04:07
"and I'm sure the voyager series is wrong and your right"
Your just makeing your self look stupid with comments like that. Role your eyes as much as you want but its math and math doesn't lie. You can work it out yourself. They would have to go at a speed of warp 7.9 to take 75 years at the official warp speed scale.
The whole Startrek warp speed thing is messed up in all the shows. It never makes any sense. Paris describes warp 9.9 as 4 billion miles per second which is 21,458 times the speed of light. Yet the official scale warp 9.9 is 3,053 times the speed of light.
Voyager crosses 2 light years in 2 hours which means it could get home in less than 8 years. Yet the Enterprise can do the same 75k lightyear trip in 12 to 15 hours, but it takes the Voyager 75 years even though it goes fast enough to do it in less then 8? It's all just crazy and makes it impossible to compare to Stargate speeds.
In fact I give up on comparing Startrek speeds there are too many inconsistency's.
" now with the hyperspace drive earth ships could get around the barrier that you say the star trek universe has surrounding the milkyway....."
You cannot go around the barrier it encircles the whole galaxy in every direction. It's like a massive bubble around the galaxy. The barrier also has psychic powers that effect people trying to go though, shields dont stop psychic powers.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.24 09:27:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pottsey on 24/08/2008 09:29:13
"every thing is wrong but you right?"
No I am not always right, I make mistakes like when I said I was wrong in saying Stagegate speeds don't make sense. But at least I can admit it unlike you who refuse to admit it when you're wrong. Even when it's clear you have been proven wrong you just make silly comments and role your eyes. Hyperspace is subspace and that doesn't go though the barrier either. Star Trek has stupidly powerful beings like Q, you cannot factor in things they do as they break any rules of physics they feel like. If something like Q makes a barrier startrek cannot go though it and it would be surprising if anything else could unless they match his power. You have a go at me about speculation then you speculated how hyperspace will works against Q like power. Subspace coms cannot go though it, why would a ship going though subspace be any different?
"But you just can't remove the entire premise of a series unless you want to rule all of Voyager non-canon."
Or I can say the show is cannon but someone made a big mistake that's all there is to it.
If that slow speed it right in Voyager you have to rule out all the other series as canon. Not to mention half of Voyager its self. The official speed of star trek ships shows Voyager 75year trip to be wrong. The speeds the crew talk about show the 75year trip to be wrong. The speeds the ships goes in the show the 75year trip to be wrong. The speed the ships in other series go show the 75year trip to be wrong. So someone made a big mistake.
The official speeds Star trek ships are meant to go are slower then Stargate and Starwars. But the speeds in show is often much faster than the official speeds. Which is why I have given up trying to compare speeds.
" Which is more likely to be wrong: a couple dialogue lines, or the obviously short ranges every time you have an on-screen fight?"
Neither, long range fights are boring so they show choose close range most of the time and do things in slow motion. Star Trek is meant to be fun to watch not show realistic fights based on tech they have. Fights on screen at close range at very slow speeds looks much better then fast high speed fights at long range. Startrek don't fight in a sensible way, they fight in ways that's are fun to watch. That's the same reason you have sound when clearly there shouldn't be any. Stargate is just the same often they fight in silly ways just because its more fun to watch.
"On weapon ranges, again, you have to just toss the nonsense."
So we are just going toss out things they done on a regular basis in every single series and toss out the technical specs that are meant to be official cannon? I rather put it down to my above comments on they do whats fun to watch not whats best for fighting.
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Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.24 19:31:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Pottsey on 24/08/2008 19:33:06
"I said, you have to look at which mistake is more reasonable to ignore. You have to ignore either:"
Ignoring the entire premise of a series as a development mistake is more reasonable to me. Almost every single time speed it mentioned direct or indirect the trip won't take 75years. So we have to ignore pretty much every single reference to speed. I would rather think the premise is wrong.
If the premise of 75years is right then ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, movies and almost every mention of speed in Voyager are all wrong.
In 200+ years every single main ship has gone fast enough to do that trip in less than 75years. Saying 75years is right means Voyager is wrong in the show and all those ships form 200+ years are wrong.
As it makes no sense I am putting 75years down as oversight by the developers and the speeds are inconsistence. The rest of the ships can go half way across the galaxy in days, yet Voyager going double the distance takes 75years. The speeds are all over the place but 99% of the time they are fast enough to do the trip in less then 75years.
There is one thing that makes sense, the ship has the speed to do trip in days or years but as its not plotted the sectors before, its travailing at a vastly reduced speed over explored space. All though the first time takes 75years now it's been plotted they can do it in days or 3 years or what ever the real speed is. That explains Voyager going at high speeds and it means the speeds in ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9 & movies are all right ish. There are no refrences to travailing slower in unexplored space but it sort of makes sence.
" You're trying to suggest that Star Trek ships have massive range and firepower, but in a life or death battle with the fate of their entire civilization at stake, they go with "what looks pretty" instead of using that range/firepower."
Not the characters them self, they don't go let's do what pretty instead of using that range/firepower.
They swap between long range and massive firepower to short range silly battles that look good on screen. Its a TV show not a documentary of real life. Its meant to be fun to watch, which means they don't always do the sensible thing. Shows like Star Trek and StarGate often do stupid things as it looks better on screen even if its life and death and the fate of their entire civilization hangs in the balance.
Yes it is pointless arguing/comparing and the data we have is irrelevant. It's still fun to try and compare with what we have though.
" 1) A few random throwaway lines, none of which are actually consistent with each other without absurd rationalizations"
It's not a few though it's pretty much every single one. Yes they are inconsistent but even the lower speeds are enough to do it in days or years.
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Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.24 21:04:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Pottsey on 24/08/2008 21:03:57
The large asteroids I have already shown. As for the planets they didn't use it on a planet. They talked about the more powerful settings on the high end Photon torpedoes being able to destroy small planets.
In "The Omega Directive" Tuvok & Kim are modifying one of the ship's photon torpedoes. They comment on how the yield is now enough to destroy a small planet and Janeway's orders them to increase the yield a little more. Long time since I watched I think they used it to close a wormhole not destroy a planet.
TNG "New Ground" "Code of Honor"
Voy :"Dreadnought," "Scorpion, Part II" "In the Flesh" "Living Witness" "Human Error"
Are all good examples of how photon torpedoes have different power levels, yields and settings.
A class-10 torpedo could be armed with an even more powerful high yield warhead. (VOY: "Scorpion, Part II", "In the Flesh")
Photon torpedo is not one single weapon. It's a line of weapons. Voyager for example had type-6 and no type 5 or lower.
Saying a Photon torpedo is weak like todays weapons and has a set power is like looking at a 75mm railgun in Eve and saying all railguns in Eve are like that.
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Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.24 22:25:00 -
[24]
It doesn't matter if Voyager failed to blow up an asteroid they didnt use the powerful torps as even the high end photon torpedoes are the low end of torpedo weapons. Other ships have blown up asteroids. Guess I was wrong on a blow up a small planet comment. Going have to rematch it.
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Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.25 10:20:00 -
[25]
"so in first contact why did they not just one shot the Borg cube?"
The Borg are not an undefended asteroid without shields.
They did one shot Borg cubes with a new weapon systems 5 years after First Contact. But during First Contact they didn't have that much firepower.
The Borg have super strong shields and amour which can take on a Federations defence force at a time without a problem. At least they could until the Federation upgraded their weapons.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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