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M'Bac
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:42:00 -
[1]
Bestower prices in The Forge
....or is it a concerted effort to annoy sweatshop/ macro haulers?
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Lubimchik
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:18:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: M'Bac
Bestower prices in The Forge
....or is it a concerted effort to annoy sweatshop/ macro haulers?
lmao... Hmm that makes me wonder!
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Nido Gentz
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:22:00 -
[3]
Has any volume gone off at those insane prices? I'm at work or I'd check myself.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:33:00 -
[4]
Interestingly it has. It looks like people are buying out all the stock and then having their 200m or 500m units as lowest price.
Foolish individuals aren't checking the price when purchasing and as such are buying these items at the insane rates seen here.
It's actually smart on the trader/scammer's part (depending on what you would call such a person) but I doubt it has anything to do with macro miners, just people who aren't taking the time to check the price before purchasing. Jita has a habit of doing that as people always expect it to be fully stocked and set at the cheapest price.
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Lubimchik
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:36:00 -
[5]
Yeah I still have a 20m isk shuttle from a few months back that happened to break me of the not checking habit.
So this gold plated shuttle I purchased kind of sits in my hanger collecting dust like a nice car in a garage.
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Snasty
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
It's actually smart on the trader/scammer's part (depending on what you would call such a person)
Does anyone consider this sort of market "adjusting" a scam?
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Vhaluus
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Snasty
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
It's actually smart on the trader/scammer's part (depending on what you would call such a person)
Does anyone consider this sort of market "adjusting" a scam?
the people who bought them probably did. me personally? nope.
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Ulecese
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:44:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ulecese on 12/08/2008 14:45:04
Originally by: Snasty
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
It's actually smart on the trader/scammer's part (depending on what you would call such a person)
Does anyone consider this sort of market "adjusting" a scam?
tbh there is little difference between this and buying up a particular item at a heavily used station then relisting it at a higher price. This situation is overkill though 
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Snasty
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ulecese
Edited by: Ulecese on 12/08/2008 14:45:04
Originally by: Snasty
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
It's actually smart on the trader/scammer's part (depending on what you would call such a person)
Does anyone consider this sort of market "adjusting" a scam?
tbh there is little difference between this and buying up a particular item at a heavily used station then relisting it at a higher price. This situation is overkill though
Well I'm glad that the general view is that this is fair game, albeit a bit over the top, as I have done rather well out of it.
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Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Snasty
[Well I'm glad that the general view is that this is fair game, albeit a bit over the top, as I have done rather well out of it.
Screenshots of wallet transactions or it never happened  |
No Maz
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:08:00 -
[11]
It's been happening with a lot of Industrial Ships all over the place for some time now.
I assume cos its harder to restock these ships like you could with items and even smaller ships like frigs.
However, I am interested of a manufacturer or someone could come and dump a whole load of them and make a killig - is that possible?
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Snasty
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ricdics
Originally by: Snasty
[Well I'm glad that the general view is that this is fair game, albeit a bit over the top, as I have done rather well out of it.
Screenshots of wallet transactions or it never happened
I fear I have given you the wrong impression, I did not create this situation, I have just jumped on and off the bandwagon and made a nice few million here and there, but NOT the 240mill per ship maddness.
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Rho'varo
Diversified Operational Services
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:18:00 -
[13]
Who foresees Bestowers arriving by the truckload on the evening train?
Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills |
Snasty
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rho'varo
Who foresees Bestowers arriving by the truckload on the evening train?
Indeed, 12 have just pulled in on the first wagon. Time for me to move on I think, fun over, its going to get messy now.
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Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rho'varo
Who foresees Bestowers arriving by the truckload on the evening train?
Well you can see the mass purchase made 1 day before the manipulation, 544 units compared to the average closer to 70 units a day. Would have taken a small chunk of capital (approx 170m) however a single sale has made a return on investment.
Ships are probably the best things to manipulate in this way as they have a far longer build time than modules. Plus, the guy doesn't need to sell those 500 units to make his profit, he can just reprocess them. Prices are that tight in Jita that he will likely get about 280k back for every item purchased at 300k meaning a net loss on that 170m of about 20m however those sales pushes him up to at least a 400% return on investment over a 48 hour period |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ricdics
Originally by: Rho'varo
Who foresees Bestowers arriving by the truckload on the evening train?
Well you can see the mass purchase made 1 day before the manipulation, 544 units compared to the average closer to 70 units a day. Would have taken a small chunk of capital (approx 170m) however a single sale has made a return on investment.
Ships are probably the best things to manipulate in this way as they have a far longer build time than modules. Plus, the guy doesn't need to sell those 500 units to make his profit, he can just reprocess them. Prices are that tight in Jita that he will likely get about 280k back for every item purchased at 300k meaning a net loss on that 170m of about 20m however those sales pushes him up to at least a 400% return on investment over a 48 hour period
Manipulation on my T1 ships?
It's more common than you think
Honestly though, it's much easier to sustain this type of manipulation on long build time ships and in secondary hubs. Margins are pretty thin just about everywhere and it's pretty easy to take advantage of this. |
Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.12 15:42:00 -
[17]
That's the point. These bestowers take what? 3 hours to produce per bpo. At this point chances are a pile of people have bought 9 bestower bpo's each and have them producing like crazy.
However by the time they have a decent stockpile up they will find the price has stabilised and their unresearched production jobs need to be sold for a loss whilst the market manipulator has reprocessed his bestowers and manipulated the badger.
As said above it's incredibly easy to do something like this and there's no instant resolution to the problem. The guy has made the most of that, now that everyone is on the bandwagon he will switch to another stock whilst laughing his arse off when tomorrow there are 2000 bestowers for sale below build cost. |
Rho'varo
Diversified Operational Services
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ricdics
That's the point. These Bestowers take what? 3 hours to produce per BPO.
Just an un-researched thought, but maybe it should take some time to reprocess things? E.g., 10% of the time it takes to build the thing. RP-wise it does seem a bit unlikely that if a pilot so chooses, he or she can magically transmute a huge mixed pile of goods to their constituent "elements" instantaneously (or, if in Jita, perhaps within several minutes).
Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills |
CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:17:00 -
[19]
Lazy, rich, or uninformed...whatevaaaa.
I routinely purchase T1 items/ships and haul them to a region that is ôout of stockö. 300% to 400% margins are common. Granted, I only buy a small inventory compared to this fellow, but it works! 30 min of high-sec hauling and on to my next item/region. If the haul is too far or margins wont support the time for the haul I just research a 'lil more and find something, somewhere, that will.
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oogs
Gallente
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:27:00 -
[20]
lol, the same thing is happening with iteron Mk IIIs.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: oogs
lol, the same thing is happening with iteron Mk IIIs.
Why Mark III is an odd choice.
I usually did the Mark IV since its the most used industrial for new industrial alts before the last big push for Indy V which is what.. 20 odd days. The first big leap for most new indy toons. |
Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.12 18:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: oogs
lol, the same thing is happening with iteron Mk IIIs.
Why Mark III is an odd choice.
I usually did the Mark IV since its the most used industrial for new industrial alts before the last big push for Indy V which is what.. 20 odd days. The first big leap for most new indy toons.
Personally I go from III straight to V. I like my haulers to have a tractor beam and a salvager. But I could see the logic in the purely larger IV.
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Nido Gentz
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:08:00 -
[23]
FWIW, I went from a Mark III to Mark V as well.
I wonder if this is a viable business to just continue to rotate the T1 ships you are manipulating and make a killing from the few fools that overpay. Reprocess, rinse, repeat...
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Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.13 04:40:00 -
[24]
Or it could be RMT farmers transfering ISK from their trial accounts. They buy the 'scam' priced bestower from an ISK buyer, ISK buyer gets the money. No muss, no fuss, nobody's the wiser. Hell of a lot easier than jetting megacyte for the ISK buyers to sell to their buy orders.
Pretty savvy move if it's a manipulator though. Hope he/she gets around to megathrons right around the time I get a batch done. 
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Sicil Fioet
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.13 08:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Clair Bear
Or it could be RMT farmers transfering ISK from their trial accounts. They buy the 'scam' priced bestower from an ISK buyer, ISK buyer gets the money. No muss, no fuss, nobody's the wiser. Hell of a lot easier than jetting megacyte for the ISK buyers to sell to their buy orders.
Pretty savvy move if it's a manipulator though. Hope he/she gets around to megathrons right around the time I get a batch done.
This is too high risk for farmers to do it around Jita area. And if they were transferring ISK those haulers would be flying off the shelves now. It is just someone preying on the unsuspecting buyer with developing attention deficit.
As far as if this is a scam or not, it is not a scam as much as setting up Ravens for 400 mil ISK and selling them as Navy Ravens is not a scam.
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Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.13 09:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sicil Fioet
As far as if this is a scam or not, it is not a scam as much as setting up Ravens for 400 mil ISK and selling them as Navy Ravens is not a scam.
I wouldn't agree. Selling a Raven faked as a Caldari Navy Raven I would consider a scam. It is intentionally trying to trick a person into selling a product that isn't the one advertised.
If you are selling a Raven advertised as a Raven but at a 300% premium you aren't necessarily misleading people. You are selling a product at a price that is right for you. The buyer has the option to purchase or not purchase.
It would come down to ones opinion on whether or not doing this would constitute a scam.
Insured Research and Production Services
Queues |
Rho'varo
Diversified Operational Services
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:25:00 -
[27]
There's obviously a substantial grey area that ranges from what almost everyone might agree is a scam to what only a few people consider scams (and others might consider "sharp dealing" or just clever marketing). Then there is a second grey area that covers the morality of scamming: some people think that there should be no scams allowed ever, and others think that scams are the best thing since the invention of the warp scrambler.
In my mind, a scam is one person taking positive action to trick someone else into making a mistake that benefits the first person. (I realise others might have different definitions.)
So if someone buys up all the Bestowers in a region with the intention that their 400 million ISK unit might be mistaken (however foolishly or however drunkenly) for a 400 thousand ISK unit, they are trying to operate a scam. I differentiate this from someone trying to price gouge by, for example, buying out the region and bumping the price by 300%. This latter action is not reliant on the victim making a simple decimal-place reading mistake. Perhaps buying a Bestower marked up 300% is a failure of judgement or business acumen, but it doesn't have the same flavour of "trick" to me.
Personally, I think scamming is unethical and I avoid it, but I recognise that it is an important part of the game and I wouldn't want to see scams go.
What I don't like is spam: let the scammers have their scams, but please take away their spamming powers!
Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:54:00 -
[28]
Please note my use of quoted 'scam' -- while this practice is undoubtedly making use of people not counting zeroes (much like many bogus contract 'scams') it is hardly in the same league as cleverly crafted contracts with links to goods other than the ones being sold.
I'm going to go with manipulation on this one in retrospect. Hats off to the clever guy or girl that pulled this off.
p.s. I'm in the itty III pilot club myself.
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Absimi Liard
Gallente
Confederate Miners Union of Eve
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:38:00 -
[29]
I'm with Clair Bear.
I don't think this was a scam. I think it's just a very well done market manipulation.
I would take my hat off to honor the bright lad or lass who came up with it by the way. I seriously admire this sort of thing, especially when it's hitting the customer in their wallet.
(Nothing I love more than seeing someone Epic Win at market pvp, unless it's the idea of financing pirates.)
-abs
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:47:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Absimi Liard
unless it's the idea of financing pirates.
Well there is something infinitely satisfying in getting popped in low sec. Researching the corp that popped you, buying out every single possible item of real use, remarking it up and then paying for a merc corp to harrass them.
Ahhh the things you do when you have far to much isk to spend at times. |
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