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Stela'Artois Hatori Mining Services	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:47:00 - [61] Edited by: Stela''Artois on 13/08/2008 17:52:15 Nutbar, Nevermind...It is a game. I personally dont know why even an Aircraft carrier of todays world needs so many people...but they do, and it doesnt even fly. In short...the backstory is the way it is because a bunch of drunk icelandic people got together and said "Hey, lets make a game where we can blow each other up online" and the rest said "Ok, cool!...when Philssssoohn is done puking in the bushes tell him to come up with a story." so it is...and so it shall be.
nutbar Caldari Flair Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:51:00 - [62] Oh, and in case people may have overlooked it - all those NPCs you destroy day in and day out during your missions and ratting - they have crews as well. I truly believe that if CCP could give us a grand total of all the different ships destroyed (NPC and otherwise) every day, and we calculated the crew required for all those ships, many people would be surprised just how many lives are lost every single day in EVE throughout the universe. Take in to consideration the number of years EVE has been in existance and I bet the numbers would astound you. Even figuring in the average growth of civilizations to repopulate, I think we would quickly realize that the term "mass murderer" doesn't do ourselves justice in it's description.
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:54:00 - [63] Hop in a frigate and go to a planet, then eject and compare the size of that frigate to your pod. They say frigates have no crew but given the size of that rookie ship compared to my pod I would think it needs at least a handful people, something like that Serenity ship from firefly. Now if you look at a docked cruiser closely (use Premium graphics) you will notice several rows of little small windows all around. I think the head of an Exequror has more than 20 decks. --- "There is no lag in Jita, NEVER!" - Iraqi Information Minister
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:56:00 - [64] Originally by: Ruze To the poster who decided that paying the crew legitimizes it ... How much do you think 1 isk is worth? Probably millions of landside dollars, I would guess. Do you really think that the isk is the only currency in EvE? Do you really think a ship that can travel between stars is only 35,000.00 isk? So in my reckoning, the isk is an international currency that is well and above the landside dollars. Maybe .01 isk could afford a thousand crewmembers paychecks for a year? Or maybe we buy their contract on purchase of the ship? Think of it this way: Even a one-day old player is immensely wealthy by planetside standards. according to one of the news articles going past just lately a group of 200 scruffy mins were able to come up with enough isk to buy an old indy and fit it up for a long trip out to visit the elders. given mins are not supposed to be a generally wealthy lot this drops the value of isk rather dramatically below your estimates.
nutbar Caldari Flair Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:02:00 - [65] Originally by: Stela'Artois ... stuff... The pod stuff (which you edited out) - yes, the whole pod idea makes good sense when in the context of you don't get out of it. I'm saying that having us get out of our pods is where it seems a bit silly. I **** and eat and all that, and if I'm in a pod of goo I assume I have things in my anus, mouth, etc... - do I want to have to yank those out (and put them back in) more than once a day even? Blegh... who cleans those things... (yes yes, it's the crew - all 7000 people in my Raven take turns washing the junk out of my pod). For the other stuff - restrictions on population growth or not, it comes down to how easily we're throwing away lives that doesn't seem to make much sense. If I could bang my gf and have her pop out 20 kids in a lifetime because we can afford it, I still think I'd give a crap if 10 of those kids died one day because they were suicide ganked in Jita purely because their pilot had a Pith X-Type XL Shield Booster in his cargo hold. PS, aircraft carriers don't fly because they're boats. I understand that it's just a game, and I'm not tearing hairs out because the backstory doesn't make sense in some places. I still enjoy shooting stuff as much as I did before this thread. All I'm saying is - if they're going to the lengths to write all this roleplaying jargon (and even teaming up with an RPG company to help them), you figure they'd at least want to make it a bit more plausable (and if that means more explanation rather than redoing numbers, so be it), no?
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:03:00 - [66] Hell, an Imperial Star Destroyer from Star Wars was crewed by some odd 100k people. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
nutbar Caldari Flair Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:06:00 - [67] Originally by: Ruze Hell, an Imperial Star Destroyer from Star Wars was crewed by some odd 100k people. It blows up planets. Didn't someone say a Titan takes about 50k crew? Even it can't blow up a planet at half the crew :P Then again, a Titan can't be taken down by a frigate with a torpedo :P
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:08:00 - [68] Originally by: nutbar Originally by: Ruze Hell, an Imperial Star Destroyer from Star Wars was crewed by some odd 100k people. It blows up planets. Didn't someone say a Titan takes about 50k crew? Even it can't blow up a planet at half the crew :P Then again, a Titan can't be taken down by a frigate with a torpedo :P Star Destroyer. Not 'Death Star'. A Star Destroyer is what you see flying in the first scene of the first movie, Episode IV. Death Star? Try a million + crewmen, fully manned. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
damgood85 Excelsior Solar Management Capital Storm	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:10:00 - [69] pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? Oh and by the way, you are now reading my sig.
nutbar Caldari Flair Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:11:00 - [70] Oh, oops :P Whatever. It only took 2 people to fly the Aluminum Falcon - I'd say it would maybe qualify as a cruiser, no?
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:11:00 - [71] Originally by: damgood85 pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? That's a good question. The backstory shows that clones DO work for people other than pod pilots. You just have to get your head scanned routinely. Politicians, business men, that kind of thing. You don't get up to the minute memories like the pod pilots, but you aren't out for the count, either. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:14:00 - [72] Originally by: nutbar Oh, oops :P Whatever. It only took 2 people to fly the Aluminum Falcon - I'd say it would maybe qualify as a cruiser, no? Hahahaha ... "What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?" "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought the Dark Lord of the Sith could protect an exhaust port only two feet wide!" Hmm ... don't know what you'd classify the Falcon as. It wasn't supposed to be crewed by only two people. It was a cargo ship meant for four or five crewmembers, so ... Ah, letting my inner nerd out, big time. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
nutbar Caldari Flair Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:14:00 - [73] Originally by: damgood85 pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? Because having sex with $1mil isk worth of hookers to re-crew your ships is way more fun? If you go that far that even the crew can have clones, then the wars being waged would quite simply come down to who can pop out the most clones... unless the other side have Jedis on their team... hmmmm...
nutbar Caldari Flair Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:20:00 - [74] Originally by: Ruze Hahahaha ... "What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?" "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought the Dark Lord of the Sith could protect an exhaust port only two feet wide!" This thread requires a small intermission... :D
Corduroy Rab Xenocidal Uprising	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:23:00 - [75] Originally by: damgood85 pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? I believe it is because you have to be special in some physical way for it to work, or something like that.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:17:00 - [76] Originally by: damgood85 pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? That just occurred to me after reading another thread. Ship crews are supplied with clones by the pod pilots; makes sense. The whole death and destruction thing has the bite taken out of it then.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:20:00 - [77] Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: damgood85 pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? That just occurred to me after reading another thread. Ship crews are supplied with clones by the pod pilots; makes sense. The whole death and destruction thing has the bite taken out of it then. Cost, I'm almost certain. Even a basic clone costs, what a few hundred thousand ISK? That's gotta be the equivalent of 5 years wages for the average crewman. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Malach Kehrehb Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:26:00 - [78] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: damgood85 pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? That just occurred to me after reading another thread. Ship crews are supplied with clones by the pod pilots; makes sense. The whole death and destruction thing has the bite taken out of it then. Cost, I'm almost certain. Even a basic clone costs, what a few hundred thousand ISK? That's gotta be the equivalent of 5 years wages for the average crewman. Did I miss something here?. Pod Pilot (Capsuleer). Able to be cloned because he/she is in a pod and is a pod pilot. Crew, not a pod pilot and therefore, not able to be cloned.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:28:00 - [79] Originally by: Malach Kehrehb Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: damgood85 pod pilots have clones so why wouldn't the ships crew? That just occurred to me after reading another thread. Ship crews are supplied with clones by the pod pilots; makes sense. The whole death and destruction thing has the bite taken out of it then. Cost, I'm almost certain. Even a basic clone costs, what a few hundred thousand ISK? That's gotta be the equivalent of 5 years wages for the average crewman. Did I miss something here?. Pod Pilot (Capsuleer). Able to be cloned because he/she is in a pod and is a pod pilot. Crew, not a pod pilot and therefore, not able to be cloned. Cloning just needs a brain scan. It was invented before pod pilot technology was released. So, yeah, you don't need to be a pod pilot to be cloned. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.08.13 20:32:00 - [80] Sorry I have to interject here. As an avid RPer I pay special attention to the EVE science and why things are supposed to work. 1) Pod pilots AKA Capsuleers are unique. If you read the Wet Grave story, you will see that not everyone has the brain power that can interface with a ship using the Jovian Pod technology. 99.9999% (nearly everyone) will mindlock and become a vegatable if they try to interface with it. Think of the X-men and how Prof. Xavier can interface with Cerebras (sp?) but anyone else that would try would fry thier brain. Too much information. So people attempt at being a pod pilot by groing through a VERY rigorous training to see if they can interface with the pod. Only a VERY few make it. Those that can can take advantage of the Jovian pod tech fitted ships and can make more ISK then any other profession in the Cluster. Capsuleers are demi-gods. We are the most powerful people known. We are the super celebrities and WE are the elite. We have the power in our capability to interface with a ship to make that ship do things non-capuleer ships cannot do. Our minds help our shields take mroe damage, our minds help the nanites in our armor repair more. Our weapons take less time to consider their target and launch thier payloads. Our ships are superior with the significant upgrade that is the Pod. 2) When our brains are scanned, it destroys the brain matter in the process. The process of scanning our brain to transfer it to a clone kills us. But the fact our pod has been breached means the same thing. No crews can have thier brains scanned unless they too were in close proximity to the scanner and NOT moving. You have to be 100% totally still to not have the scan fail. Only capsuleers are immortal in this fashion. Regular crews escape small escape craft that would be cool if you saw them launch when your ship was 10% hull or something like that. I hope this clears up any confusion. This is all based off of the EVE fiction I have read.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.13 20:51:00 - [81] Originally by: Cloora Sorry I have to interject here. As an avid RPer I pay special attention to the EVE science and why things are supposed to work. 1) Pod pilots AKA Capsuleers are unique. If you read the Wet Grave story, you will see that not everyone has the brain power that can interface with a ship using the Jovian Pod technology. 99.9999% (nearly everyone) will mindlock and become a vegatable if they try to interface with it. Think of the X-men and how Prof. Xavier can interface with Cerebras (sp?) but anyone else that would try would fry thier brain. Too much information. So people attempt at being a pod pilot by groing through a VERY rigorous training to see if they can interface with the pod. Only a VERY few make it. Those that can can take advantage of the Jovian pod tech fitted ships and can make more ISK then any other profession in the Cluster. Capsuleers are demi-gods. We are the most powerful people known. We are the super celebrities and WE are the elite. We have the power in our capability to interface with a ship to make that ship do things non-capuleer ships cannot do. Our minds help our shields take mroe damage, our minds help the nanites in our armor repair more. Our weapons take less time to consider their target and launch thier payloads. Our ships are superior with the significant upgrade that is the Pod. 2) When our brains are scanned, it destroys the brain matter in the process. The process of scanning our brain to transfer it to a clone kills us. But the fact our pod has been breached means the same thing. No crews can have thier brains scanned unless they too were in close proximity to the scanner and NOT moving. You have to be 100% totally still to not have the scan fail. Only capsuleers are immortal in this fashion. Regular crews escape small escape craft that would be cool if you saw them launch when your ship was 10% hull or something like that. I hope this clears up any confusion. This is all based off of the EVE fiction I have read. Number 2 is wrong. In the same science article, it says that we are injected with poisons when our pod is cracked, to ensure that our previous body dies. The brainscan doesn't destroy the brain, as cloning was a technology invented well before we received the Jovian designs. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:29:00 - [82] Originally by: Ruze Number 2 is wrong. In the same science article, it says that we are injected with poisons when our pod is cracked, to ensure that our previous body dies. The brainscan doesn't destroy the brain, as cloning was a technology invented well before we received the Jovian designs. Taken right form the Pod tech from the EVE backstory "Despite the advances made in cloning tech, in almost every single environment retransplantation of the mind at time of death is still risky ground. The crucial element in the process relies on a brain-scan snapshot being taken at the precise time of death and transmitted to the waiting clone, and so the transneural burning scanner required to do so needs to be mounted somewhere close to the person at all times. Since the snapshot itself causes massive physical damage to the gray matter, there can be no margin of error; it needs to be done at the exact time of death. In planetary vehicles, the cloning companies have experimented with mounting the transneural scanner in a variety of locations, but the almost limitless potentiality of planet-bound environments has proved time and again that it just isnÆt safe û snapshots either go off due to false stimuli, leaving healthy clients in a vegetative state, or fail to go off due to circumstances unforeseen by the safeguard mechanism, leaving clients dead with no chance of retransplantation. In the capsule, however, things are different. All the equipment needs to do is detect a breach in the pod, because û as every cadet has hammered into his head from the moment he starts training û pod breach, without exception, spells doom for the person inside. Therefore, the instant the egg begins to crack, two things happen: the wire-cap on the pilotÆs head injects an instantly lethal nanotoxin into his bloodstream and the scanner sends its piercing light into his skull. Scarce seconds later, he begins the muddy climb towards consciousness in a new body, light years away. " So yes the scan destroys the brain. The poison kills the body. And the scan is not feasble for a crew that is out and about the ship. they do not get scanned and cloned. They escape in small craft or stay in reinforced areas of the ship to survive until rescue can pick them up. So where am I wrong?
Devlan Morris	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:40:00 - [83] Honestly, I don't think that the method of "consciousness transfer" used in EVE would work. All you are really doing is creating an identical copy of yourself. There is no resaon to think that you would "wake up" in that copy after you die. Rather, that copy would have all of your memories and would thus feel as if it had "woken up." This however does you, who are dead, absolutely no good. The only way to achieve true imortality through cloning is by maintaining "continuity of consciosuness." Your feeling of "self" is really an illusion anyway, as there is no single "thing" that is you, just lots of smaller things that work independently but in a highly synchronized manner to create the feeling of a continuous self. In order to truly "transfer" your conscious experience, it is absolutely essential that this illusion of continuity be preserved. The best way I can think of to achieve this is through a permanent, wireless, FTL informational link between multiple brains. So, you would always be connected to your clone, although it's brain would be "dormant" most of the time. You would have to be at least dimly aware of existing somewhere else simultaneously in a vat. If one body were to die in this case, it would be something liek haveing a massive stroke and then recovering very quickly. Continuity would be maintained. Anyone have any better ideas, or is there something I am missing? By the way, I haven't been able to find any information about how jump clones are supposed to work (background wise), they don't seem to fit with the "normal" cloning method (and I think would be much easier to impliment with my method).
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:56:00 - [84] Originally by: Devlan Morris The only way to achieve true imortality through cloning is by maintaining "continuity of consciosuness." Your feeling of "self" is really an illusion anyway, as there is no single "thing" that is you, just lots of smaller things that work independently but in a highly synchronized manner to create the feeling of a continuous self. In order to truly "transfer" your conscious experience, it is absolutely essential that this illusion of continuity be preserved. Ah, but since this feeling of self is derived entirely from physical processes in the brain, wouldn't creating an exact replica of the brain effectively duplicate your consciousness? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Devlan Morris	Posted - 2008.08.13 22:04:00 - [85] Originally by: Tarminic Ah, but since this feeling of self is derived entirely from physical processes in the brain, wouldn't creating an exact replica of the brain effectively duplicate your consciousness? Well, I imagine it would "duplicate" your consciousness in one sense, but I don't see how this would do you any good, as you would not share subjective experiences with your duplicate. the best way to explain it is to imagine that the duplicate is created before you die. Then someone shoots you in the head. Would you "wake up" in the clone? Of course not, that makes no sense. It makes equally little sense for you to "wake up" if you are killed just before the clone is created.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.13 22:12:00 - [86] Originally by: Cloora Originally by: Ruze Err Truth Seems I misread. Ahh, to err is human. To really screw up, you should try being me Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.13 22:14:00 - [87] Originally by: Devlan Morris Originally by: Tarminic Ah, but since this feeling of self is derived entirely from physical processes in the brain, wouldn't creating an exact replica of the brain effectively duplicate your consciousness? Well, I imagine it would "duplicate" your consciousness in one sense, but I don't see how this would do you any good, as you would not share subjective experiences with your duplicate. If your brain patterns are impressed upon the clone the moment you're killed, why wouldn't you? As far as I know, the clones have physical brains but they're completely inactive until your pattern is applied to it, at which point the clone regains (gains?) consciousness with your mind and memories intact. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 22:40:00 - [88] If you have a problem with lost crews, just look up the history of the Ford Pinto. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Devlan Morris	Posted - 2008.08.14 01:06:00 - [89] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Devlan Morris Originally by: Tarminic Ah, but since this feeling of self is derived entirely from physical processes in the brain, wouldn't creating an exact replica of the brain effectively duplicate your consciousness? Well, I imagine it would "duplicate" your consciousness in one sense, but I don't see how this would do you any good, as you would not share subjective experiences with your duplicate. If your brain patterns are impressed upon the clone the moment you're killed, why wouldn't you? As far as I know, the clones have physical brains but they're completely inactive until your pattern is applied to it, at which point the clone regains (gains?) consciousness with your mind and memories intact. Ok, sorry, that was a bad explanation, but I was in a rush because I had to show some med students how to run a gel. Anyway, let me take one more swing at it. Imagine that we have a way to make the duplicate without destroying the brain of the original. We could make an exact replica of Bob at a certain point in time (who I will call Bob2) while Bob is still alive. Regardless of the fact that these two bodies are very similar (almost exactly so) in structure, there would be no special connection between them. Indeed, if Bob didn't know that his brain had been scanned, he would have no way of knowing that Bob2 even existed. Thus, if I killed Bob, his consciousness would simply cease and Bob2 would likewise have no way of knowing the fate that had befallen his "twin." Now, it is certainly true that both of these bodies have all of Bob's memories personality traits and all that important stuff. In fact, I would say that both bodies have an equally valid claim to "bobhood." From the perspective of everyone else in the world, it doesn't matter which one lives or dies. However, all of this has nothing to do with subjective experience. From the perspective of Bob, his body is way more important because without it he cannot experience the world. If he were to die, his continuity would end. The rest of the world would continue to benefit from the presence of a Bob, but this would do Bob no good. Bob2 should feel the same way about himself. If however, their brains were linked so that they experienced the world as one thinking entity (like the two halves of your Cortex), then continuity could be maintained despite the death of one brain. Without a link, the illusion of a continuous self would be broken and subjective immortality would not be possible. Did that make any sense?
Iyanah Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.14 01:09:00 - [90] Originally by: hired goon Read the chronicle 'The Hands of a Killer' and the short story 'The Jovian Wetgrave' not to mention the empyrean age novel. (which is very good, given it's based on a game, i was expecting something a little crap, but i was pleasantly surprised, and hope the publish more, but i digress) ships do have crew, lots of crew in most cases, however, we as immortal beings are indifferent to their slaughter. I would like to see a rig-like slot on ships for specially trained crews/teams (such as an engineering team to remair better, or a gunnery crew to improve pew-pew-ing, etc). ========================================== that's no moon... oh, wait, yes it is, the space station's out the other window.

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