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[issue] T2 BPOs, possible "producing out" and random redistribution

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TradePirate	Posted - 2008.08.14 09:49:00 - [61] No, the lottery was bad enough, and most people never got anything, some people got more than 1, rather not have that crap again. Just remove T2 BPOs altogether and make invention the only way to get T2 ships
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Ledoux Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.14 09:54:00 - [62] The forums ate my last post (not that anyone will miss it), but the point was that there are benefits and drawbacks to T2 BPOs. Assuming that there's a lot of advance warning, I wouldn't mind if they were all deleted. I do invention and don't own any T2 BPOs, so I'm not completely biased, but I think everyone's biased here. _
Amy Wang	Posted - 2008.08.14 10:21:00 - [63] Oh is it this time of the week again? yawn
Joey Meow MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:17:00 - [64] Originally by: Innominate Originally by: Joey Meow Yea, lets get Goons to roll in on another issue and all that Jazz. T2 BPOs are no longer ISK printing machines, but they are an investment in a steady and MODEST income by any standards. So, against this. Eos BPO - Makes less than 400 Mill Month Deimos BPO - Makes less than 600 Mill Month Ishtar BPO - Makes less than 1 Bill Month Astarte BPO - Makes less than 1.6 Bill month Just as examples. And they require allot of work, to keep up production. Of course, those who are jealous, will always find a fault with anything - and why should a guy who spent 30 Bill on a BPO that makes less than a bill a month get to enjoy his achievement? Nawww, we should remove them.... we should drag everyone into the gutter with us... is that how it is? Are you seriously saying that 1 billion a month made in complete safety and with almost no work NOT an isk printing machine? I am suggesting that if someone is making 1 Billion a month on a 30 Billion Investemnt, even if they sit on their toilet, is OK. Most T2 BPOs have been bought out from the "lucky" winner of the Lotto, and are now in the hands of the people who earned the ISK, one way or another, to buy them.
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:37:00 - [65] T2 BPO is as anoying as when TTI had the T5 mining laser. (That they bought from someone else) -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Joey Meow Originally by: Innominate Originally by: Joey Meow Yea, lets get Goons to roll in on another issue and all that Jazz. T2 BPOs are no longer ISK printing machines, but they are an investment in a steady and MODEST income by any standards. So, against this. Eos BPO - Makes less than 400 Mill Month Deimos BPO - Makes less than 600 Mill Month Ishtar BPO - Makes less than 1 Bill Month Astarte BPO - Makes less than 1.6 Bill month Just as examples. And they require allot of work, to keep up production. Of course, those who are jealous, will always find a fault with anything - and why should a guy who spent 30 Bill on a BPO that makes less than a bill a month get to enjoy his achievement? Nawww, we should remove them.... we should drag everyone into the gutter with us... is that how it is? Are you seriously saying that 1 billion a month made in complete safety and with almost no work NOT an isk printing machine? I am suggesting that if someone is making 1 Billion a month on a 30 Billion Investemnt, even if they sit on their toilet, is OK. Most T2 BPOs have been bought out from the "lucky" winner of the Lotto, and are now in the hands of the people who earned the ISK, one way or another, to buy them. Your calculations are also wrong. Ishtar BPO would yield some 1.5-2B a month atleast with minimum 50million profit per ship. Astarte would be alot higher. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Joey Meow MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:47:00 - [67] Originally by: Shintai Your calculations are also wrong. Ishtar BPO would yield some 1.5-2B a month atleast with minimum 50million profit per ship. Astarte would be alot higher. My calculations are based on producing all of the above for over 2 years with overall market fluctuations in mind. Just because this month it is little more profitable, does not mean that the next month the same will occur, it usually does not. With moon mineral price fluctuations the profits fluctuate as well. What I described was averages, and no, I certainly do not mind someone who invests 60 Billion ISK into Astarte BPO to make 1.6-2 Bill a month....
Innominate GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:00:00 - [68] Edited by: Innominate on 14/08/2008 12:00:49 Originally by: Joey Meow I am suggesting that if someone is making 1 Billion a month on a 30 Billion or 60 Billion Investemnt, even if they sit on their toilet, is OK. Most T2 BPOs have been bought out from the "lucky" winner of the Lotto, and are now in the hands of the people who earned the ISK, one way or another, to buy them. Except most people haven't invested "30 billion isk" in their T2 BPOs. Those who did, well, investment carries risk and expecting years of continuous isk printing is nothing more than hubris. edit: Why WAS this thread moved into general discussion?
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:49:00 - [69] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 12:53:56 I think that the holders of T2 BPOs can't possibly control the market on what you call the "good" items. They are too popular, and the volumes are too high. If all of the holders of the BPOs colluded (unlikely) they still couldn't set the price of these items so low that they were impossible to make a profit on for inventors, thus maintaining their monopoly, because they cannot supply 100% of the demand. There isn't really a way for them to cartel and keep the price of these items high, either, because if they tried, the item would just get more attractive to invent. On the "not so good" T2 BPOs, nobody really cares. They aren't attractive to invent anyway because they aren't popular, and even the BPO holder probably makes jack on them. Short version: There isn't a problem here that needs solving. Invention is working just fine. What could be really cool, though, is to provide a tiny (really tiny) chance that an invention job could result in a BPO. By tiny I mean it would happen a small number of times a year game-wide. This would give those who invent an item regularly some chance to eventually get a BPO for one. That would pretty much limit it to serious T2 inventor/producers and exclude those running bunches of research alts hoping to strike it rich.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:57:00 - [70] Ok, who let the goons out of CAOD? Furthermore what goon dev moved this crap from Assembly Hall here? Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As

Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:00:00 - [71] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 13:00:20 Originally by: Danton Marcellus Ok, who let the goons out of CAOD? Furthermore what goon dev moved this crap from Assembly Hall here? It's all part of their master plan to ruin everyone else's game play and make them cry, bud. That's why they play the game you know. Didn't you get the memo?
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 13:00:20 Originally by: Danton Marcellus Ok, who let the goons out of CAOD? Furthermore what goon dev moved this crap from Assembly Hall here? It's all part of their master plan to ruin everyone else's game play and make them cry, bud. That's why they play the game you know. Didn't you get the memo? Goon alt detected. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:12:00 - [73] Lock and delete! From my cold dead hands! clutches Eagle BPO hard I actually sold one this month. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:12:00 - [74] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 13:13:05 Originally by: Abrazzar Goon alt detected. Nah. My main is someone you never heard of in a corp you never heard of. And, I'd like to keep it that way.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:58:00 - [75] The vast majority of T2 BPO revenue was captured before the invention patch. Now all you're getting by using T2 BPOs is basically invention costs and then some. Anyone can buy a T2 BPO...I'm sure if you made an offer people couldn't refuse sellers would be lining up. T2 BPOs have already been HEAVILY devalued. Remember how Cerbs dropped from like2 250mil to 80mil? Yeah...all lost profit margin. If you can't afford to buy one, that's your fault, not the T2 BPO holders' faults.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:25:00 - [76] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 15:25:42 Originally by: Khrillian The vast majority of T2 BPO revenue was captured before the invention patch. Now all you're getting by using T2 BPOs is basically invention costs and then some. Anyone can buy a T2 BPO...I'm sure if you made an offer people couldn't refuse sellers would be lining up. T2 BPOs have already been HEAVILY devalued. Remember how Cerbs dropped from like2 250mil to 80mil? Yeah...all lost profit margin. If you can't afford to buy one, that's your fault, not the T2 BPO holders' faults. Quite a bit of those profits got transferred to moon-holders, since rare moon mins are now the limiting factor in production and the only point in the value chain that is vulnerable to manipulation and cartelling. I guess that's better in a sense, at least you can fight over a moon. There was a time when many of the big alliances didn't even bother with T2 chains. There wasn't any money in it unless you had the BPOs.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:29:00 - [77] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Ok, who let the goons out of CAOD? Furthermore what goon dev moved this crap from Assembly Hall here? I've looked at this thread and it's pretty much a GD thread: "you whined about me so now I'm gonna whine about you." If this is what the CSM forum is like then I think a Spanish proverb is in order: "Aunque la mona se vista de seda, mona se queda." (essentially, "A monkey in a silk dress is still a monkey.")
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:40:00 - [78] Originally by: Toman Jerich IÆm a great believer that Eve should have the ability to provide some lucky breaks to players prepared to do the leg work and take the risks and the principle that Star Fraction could randomly lose some Zealot BPO that respawns in the hangar of Burn Eden or THE INTERNET frankly makes me smile with the anticipation of virtual profit loss. Cute. One problem with your indirect whine at us is the small issue that Star Fraction as an entity owns exactly zero T2 BPOs. Have a nice day though. ---
Selnaric	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:51:00 - [79] Why not make it such that T2 production can only be done at a POS, and the that the blueprint has to actually be at the POS. This would bring it more inline with the risk reward ratio of everything else.
Khatred ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:52:00 - [80] I like how this thread always follow the pattern of nerf t2 bpos instead of make invention better. But then again, this time we are talking goons, anything that can hurt even the slightest the other players it's great for them.

Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:54:00 - [81] I have nothing to say. Neither does the OP. The universe is in balance.......
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:55:00 - [82] Is it this time of a month already? BTW: speed nerf is not in yet - you can go back whining about it
Grarr Dexx Amarr Avenging United	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:12:00 - [83] Invention has already overtaken T2 BPO's as most seeded on market, there is no issue at hand and T2 BPO's also change hands a LOT which is good as it moves ISK around.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:41:00 - [84] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Invention has already overtaken T2 BPO's as most seeded on market,snip Which means invention has developed far enough that CCP can finalize the shift from lottery to invention by removing any remaining BPOs. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Slaver Hatastus	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:52:00 - [85] Originally by: Vision Threads Well I don't know where you're getting the crazy ideas about BPOs randomly moving around among players, but I'm all for T2 BPOs turning into limited-run BPCs so that over time they disappear from the game i kind of agree with this, but i think that those that have BPO's already should get to keep them - i don't agree with how the old system distributed them but i don't think those players should get humped by the changes. i'd like to see T2 BPC's making their way to the average player (like me!) who basically has no chance of otherwise ever getting hold of one
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:55:00 - [86] T2 BPO's should either be removed from the game or else there needs to still be a way for those not around for the "lottery" (or lucky enough to have a Dev in their alliance give them a bunch) to obtain them. PERIOD. It's **** poor game design to have unobtainable but still extremely valuable and important to the game economy items in the game. Either re introduce T2 BPO's (say as a rare result of invention) or convert them all to BPC's and use the invention system as the exclusive method of producing T2 BPC's.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:05:00 - [87] I own four minor T2 BPOs I'm not against an EVENTUAL change, but any such change would need to be announced AT LEAST a full year in advance, better yet, 2 full years. This is because some folks (not me) paid massive amounts of isk for their T2 BPOs. If it was announced that CCP is planning, in two years time, to make remove, or change, T2 BPOs, such BPOs would still have a lot of value and earning potential, but such value would shrink as time passed, and any new buyers would base the amount they payed on the approaching date. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:06:00 - [88] Originally by: Pan Crastus 2 Proposals: 1. Now that we have Auctions, there should just be daily T2 BPO auctions by NPC corporations so that existing T2 BPOs will be devalued over time. + slowly diminishing value of T2 BPOs + T2 BPO distribution fairness + good ISK sink - bad for Invention 2. T2 BPOs should be worse than invented BPCs (for example, they should get set to ME -10 or so and research not possible), or at least invented BPCs should have a realistic chance to be better than any/all T2 BPOs + small change + good nerf to T2 BPOs - there's still stuff in the game that you can't get anymore Um... that's great, except that it's TOTALLY INSANE. Who the hell is going to buy a -10 BPO? You do understand that it would amount to a license to lose money FOREVER, right? I guess it would provide some amusement value watching nubs buy something completely worthless becasue its a "T2 BPO". If more BPOs were seeded (and I'm not saying they should be) they should, as I said above, be the VERY rare result of invention jobs. That way, they would go to those who are specialized on and active in that part of the game. As more BPOs gradually entered the game, they'd be traded more frequently and eventually be expensive, but obtainable for anyone who wanted to specialize in producing that item, in line with the cost of capital BPOs today. CCP should really only consider it if they'd like to use invention as a way of producing newly introduced items and gradully transition them to BPO based production as the market for them matures. Given that they don't introduce new items that often, though, it might not make any sense. Invention as a profession would die out.
Chequer Bones	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:11:00 - [89] T2 production from BPOS is easier and cheaper because of the ME difference between invention bpcs and a researched bpo. It not only reduces mineral cost, but it also reduces time, so your profit per day per manufacturing slot is high (though, remember, an inventor can just make another alt and get 10 more slots, a t2 bpo is only in one slot). If you want to reduce the impact that t2 bpos have on the market (and reduce profits for t2 bpo holders) then simply improve the ME that you get from decryptors and increase the drop rate of decryptors. I hold 6 t2 ammo bpos that I bought, and the profit per day on them is so low now that they are not worth making. My manufacturing slots are better used on more lucrative goods. Any reduction in costs of t2 production will increase the demand for moon minerals, and push more isk towards the holders of those moons.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:23:00 - [90] Originally by: Innominate Are you seriously saying that 1 billion a month made in complete safety and with almost no work NOT an isk printing machine? No work? No risk? That can be only considered trolling. Have you ever tried to build a t2 ship? No? Then shut up and get a clue first. And if you have, then you know that quite a lot of work is involved. No risk? And you think that the materials just drop from nowhere into your hangar and the ships are sold instantly where they are built? I see quite often freighters full of t2 ships blown up, suicide ganks, you know? So it is neither work free, nor risk free. Besides, as already mentioned - if you want cheap t2 ships go and invent them. There is NO way those t2 bpo holders can compete with invention. While I might have a profitable t2 bpo it is only ONE at a time. While I can make as many inventions and build jobs (with alts etc) as I want and thus multiplying my profits more and more. With some alts I can easily produce 10 or 15 times more ships than a bpo holder - so what? He might produce cheap, but I get the bulk deals. I can't see any problems with t2 ship bpo's. Especially when the demand for t2 ships is high those bpo's have not really a noticable impact on the market. And no, I dont own a t2 ship bpo.



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