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[issue] T2 BPOs, possible "producing out" and random redistribution

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Toman Jerich Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:05:00 - [1] IÆd like to see a comprehensive review of T2 production in Eve online. At present the fixed distribution model of T2 BPOs leads to static gameplay as good T2 BPOs will always be good T2 BPOs and it encourages alliances to hoard good T2 BPOs (HACs, some command ships, etc) while caring precisely nothing about bad T2 BPOs (ammo, useless modules, etc). Would CCP ever consider introducing devaluation of T2 BPOs? û a system where eventually good T2 BPOs will be ôproduced outö and it will be necessary to rediscover alternative sources and re-establish the T2 production chain using new BPOs? (Maybe rough timescale for ôproducing outö a T2 BPO would be 2-3 months) Would CCP be prepared to randomize the process of allocating produced items to T2 BPOs? Perhaps once a particular good T2 BPO is ôproduced outö another good T2 BPO is allocated to another player somewhere in Eve? (this could even be done by classes of T2 BPO, ie that the re-allocation would go to the correct item-type but in anyone's hangar) And obviously youÆd need to adjust the numbers to ensure that you factor in BPO research time and instability into the number of T2 BPOs needed to support current industry levels. Would CCP be prepared to shake up politics and over-stabilized production chains in Eve by having the good BPOs (that are worth producing) get produced out and get randomly respawned in the possession of other players (that will need to be re-purchased if existing profit and supply domination is to be maintained)? We have a suspension of disbelief issue with previously undiscovered good T2 BPOs spawning in new player's hangars obviously, but itÆs not much worse than the endless item production of T2 BPOs by hugely industrialized alliances. What I see with the T2 BPO distribution mechanics is a chance to spark real activity in the T2 BPO market again û real trading aimed at fiscal domination and maintaining control of a vital resource. ItÆd also give more value to the marketeer profession (actually finding respawning T2 BPOs) and bring some much needed balance across the industrial alliances. ItÆs quite senseless that there are only a handful of really good T2 production alliances in Eve and lots of bad ones. IÆm a great believer that Eve should have the ability to provide some lucky breaks to players prepared to do the leg work and take the risks and the principle that Star Fraction could randomly lose some Zealot BPO that respawns in the hangar of Burn Eden or THE INTERNET frankly makes me smile with the anticipation of virtual profit loss. Make T2 production exciting again! Spark trading over T2 BPOs and organizationally-diminishing resources. Make the economic distribution system a little more dynamic and watch the market and politics get more interesting û everybody wins. Now these are very early thoughts, and a broad proposal that basically says ôCan we look at making production from T2 BPOs more interesting and dynamic?ö What do people think?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:21:00 - [2] I was just thinking it was time pro another "remove T2 BPO" post. And here it is less than 5 minutes after the thought. Originally by: Gamesguy the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
Toman Jerich Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:24:00 - [3] Originally by: Venkul Mul I was just thinking it was time pro another "remove T2 BPO" post. And here it is less than 5 minutes after the thought. Thanks Venkul Mul - yep I missed that one. Good to link the issues.
Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:26:00 - [4] Edited by: Danyael Tyren on 13/08/2008 16:26:29 Yeah, the static, sedentary nature of the T2 BPO market is really a detriment to the otherwise vibrant, active economy that Eve is known for. The time for making a change in this area is well past. There really needs to be a way for new industrial alliances/Corps to participate. ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:26:00 - [5] Aw, it looks like somebody is mad as hell over the Moon thread that Jade made. It looks like somebody is terribly, terribly afraid of losing their cash cow.
Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:27:00 - [6] Originally by: Grim Mercy Aw, it looks like somebody is mad as hell over the T2 BPO thread that Toman made. It looks like somebody is terribly, terribly afraid of losing their cash cow. Works both ways. ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:31:00 - [7] 6.5/10
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Danyael Tyren Originally by: Grim Mercy Aw, it looks like somebody is mad as hell over the T2 BPO thread that Toman made. It looks like somebody is terribly, terribly afraid of losing their cash cow. Works both ways. I have no T2 BPOs. That being said, I'm all for getting rid of them, however in a manner much different than described above. The moon thread has good ideas in it to end 0.0 stagnation and make this game more about fighting for resources, not camping them. Conversely, this whine thread was designed only to discredit the other. Makes sense that a member of a large, ungainly 0.0 alliance with a ton of moons would be ****ed.
Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Grim Mercy I have no T2 BPOs. That being said, I'm all for getting rid of them, however in a manner much different than described above. The moon thread has good ideas in it to end 0.0 stagnation and make this game more about fighting for resources, not camping them. Conversely, this whine thread was designed only to discredit the other. Makes sense that a member of a large, ungainly 0.0 alliance with a ton of moons would be ****ed. The point is that Jade made a suggestion that basically illuminates his shocking ignorance of moon mining and moon scanning. The inherent problem with his suggestion is that finding valuable moons at all is an immensely time consuming process, and having to re-scan entire regions if the moons get randomly respawned would put them on par with current deadspace encounters. This would only increase the "camping" of moon resources, and drive up the price of T2 ships. Hence the shot at T2 BPO's, of which Star Fraction has quite a few thanks to their age and the lottery that was in place before invention. Instead of finding a way to make other moons equally valuable, which would result in the depreciation of SF's precious T2 BPO's, his suggestion makes 0.0 even less valuable. ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:48:00 - [10] Read some of the other posts in that thread. There are ideas of changing the system that don't include "moving" moons. It is an interesting topic, changing up 0.0 and the way (and reason) space gets conquered.

Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:57:00 - [11] The T2 BPO issue is pretty interesting too. I imagine there is a means of fixing it without "moving" the BPO's. It is an interesting topic, changing up an entire market segment and the way (and means)by which T2 ships get produced. ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing
Innominate GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:57:00 - [12] Comparing T2 BPOs with moon mining is silly. T2 BPOs and moon mining are similar in that both are isk printing machines. The similarities end there. T2 BPOs are safe forever. Moon mining operations require a ton of logistics, large setup costs, and MUST be defended. Unlike T2 BPOs moons fairly regularly change hands. T2 BPOs are like a moon mining setup that never has to leave your hangar, and doesn't require an alliance to defend.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:06:00 - [13] Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 13/08/2008 17:05:57 This isn't fair Star Fraction and the other old school alliances worked hard and put so much effort into winning their T2 BPohwait -----------
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:07:00 - [14] Originally by: Danyael Tyren The T2 BPO issue is pretty interesting too. I imagine there is a means of fixing it without "moving" the BPO's. It is an interesting topic, changing up an entire market segment and the way (and means)by which T2 ships get produced. I agree, completely. However, while it is apparent that neither you nor I have any T2 BPOs, one of us is benefited by good moons and the other is not. I'll go ahead and let you guess who. (Hint: It's you.) The venom expressed against an idea of changing up how moons work was surprising. Even though his suggestion of how to change it was pretty terrible, there was a discussion going on in that other thread that had some other ideas, until you decided to derail it, in classic Goon fashion.
Vision Threads	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:19:00 - [15] Well I don't know where you're getting the crazy ideas about BPOs randomly moving around among players, but I'm all for T2 BPOs turning into limited-run BPCs so that over time they disappear from the game. It's not fair that just because some guy ran a bunch of missions and hooked up with some research agents in 2005 or whatever that he forever has the economic advantage that I can never overcome no matter how good at invention I get. Also, generally speaking: **** everyone who has any advantage over me and I hope they die. The CSM is a pvp playground as much as the markets and gates are in-game; anyone who can't see that is a fool.
Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Grim Mercy I agree, completely. However, while it is apparent that neither you nor I have any T2 BPOs, one of us is benefited by good moons and the other is not. I'll go ahead and let you guess who. (Hint: It's you.) The venom expressed against an idea of changing up how moons work was surprising. Even though his suggestion of how to change it was pretty terrible, there was a discussion going on in that other thread that had some other ideas, until you decided to derail it, in classic Goon fashion. The difference is, you could come and take my moons if you ever get a big enough set of balls. We can never touch SF's T2 BPO's. There should be a way for guys like you and me to get involved in the T2 BPO market. There were no valuable ideas in the other thread. Moon mining is an incredibly involved, complex issue, and the only ideas put forth were from individuals who clearly had no experience with Moon mining and no grasp of the far-reaching impact their ideas would have on the larger market. You're basically complaining that Goons are upset that Jade is trying to change 0.0 (a topic about which he knows nothing) in such a fashion that he benefits financially from it. ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:22:00 - [17] Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 13/08/2008 17:27:44 Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 13/08/2008 17:22:58 They never should have stopped the lottery that's the only way to make this right put it back in make is so that T2 BPO's are devlaed to the point where they are sellign crap barely above making a scraping profit much like t1 everything.
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:25:00 - [18] Invention works just fine. T2 BPOs are no longer needed and are a throwback to a poor design decision many years ago. Just delete all T2 BPOs.
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:34:00 - [19] Yeah, lets get rid of T2 BPOs. I agree. Going after moons is a lot more than just an issue of testicular fortitude, and you know it.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Grim Mercy Yeah, lets get rid of T2 BPOs. I agree. Going after moons is a lot more than just an issue of testicular fortitude, and you know it. Moon require you to hold a pos on it provide fuel, do logistical work, etc etc etc. T2 BPO's require you to run them in a perfectly safe station. Yes T2 BPO's do need more parity :rolleyes:.

Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:37:00 - [21] Edited by: Abrazzar on 13/08/2008 17:37:13 People that pay a year's worth of profits for a T2 BPO are screwing themselves over already. Those that have the T2 BPOs from past times have made a fortune already (or they're just failures). The debate shouldn't be about whether or not T2 BPOs should be removed but on how they will be removed. They are a obsolete relict from past times. Here are three options: - Delete them - Turn them into maximum runs BPCs - Turn them into BPCs with runs equaling one year running time. No new T2 BPOs should be introduces in any way ever again. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Grim Mercy Yeah, lets get rid of T2 BPOs. I agree. Going after moons is a lot more than just an issue of testicular fortitude, and you know it. Stain Empire took 4 of our Dyspro moons for nearly 6 months and we're just now getting them back. So, yes, it's mostly testicular fortitude. Just because you're lacking doesn't mean it it's some far-reaching fantasy scenario. ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Abrazzar Here are three options: - Delete them - Turn them into maximum runs BPCs - Turn them into BPCs with runs equaling one year running time. Just delete the damn things. The other two options can be achieved by using copy slots in a station. Quote: No new T2 BPOs should be introduces in any way ever again. Hopefully, this is now the case.
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:55:00 - [24] No support. The OP is proposing bringing back the T2 BPO lottery, but this time without the requirement of obtaining RLP's (Research Loyalty Points) from research agents. This would mean that everyone in EVE would have a chance at obtaining a randomly spawned T2 BPO in their hanger. Let's see......who would that benefit? Possibly a really large alliance? Maybe.....goonswarm? Naw. I'm sure that's just paranoia on my part. More people = more chance of someone in the alliance getting the T2 BPO. This is just goonswarm looking for another easy button. I'm told WoW is full of them. Maybe they should check it out. People who have played this game for years are entitled to what they worked for. One of the things that keeps coming out of goonswarm is their belief/desire that people who have been playing a few months should be equal to people that have played for five years. They want instant gratification and large easy buttons. The owners of BPO's are either those who got lucky in the lottery back when it was in place or those that paid enormous sums of isk for them. Either way they are entitled to the advantage they currently have. In any case that advantage is not as large as it once was. T2 BPO's became considerably less valuable when invention started allowing anyone to create a T2 BPC. As an example the price of a Hulk went from around 500 million isk to around 100 million isk. With invention came the demise of the lottery. No more T2 BPO's given out and lots of T2 BPC's being produced. CCP eliminated the lottery and replaced it with invention specifically to break the lock on the markets held by T2 BPO owners. The idea is that attrition will eventually take its course and T2 BPO's will inevitably disappear. In the meantime, the large advantage the T2 BPO's once held is gone. Windjammer
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Windjammer No support. The OP is proposing bringing back the T2 BPO lottery, but this time without the requirement of obtaining RLP's (Research Loyalty Points) from research agents. This would mean that everyone in EVE would have a chance at obtaining a randomly spawned T2 BPO in their hanger. Let's see......who would that benefit? Possibly a really large alliance? Maybe.....goonswarm? Naw. I'm sure that's just paranoia on my part. More people = more chance of someone in the alliance getting the T2 BPO. This is just goonswarm looking for another easy button. I'm told WoW is full of them. Maybe they should check it out. People who have played this game for years are entitled to what they worked for. One of the things that keeps coming out of goonswarm is their belief/desire that people who have been playing a few months should be equal to people that have played for five years. They want instant gratification and large easy buttons. The owners of BPO's are either those who got lucky in the lottery back when it was in place or those that paid enormous sums of isk for them. Either way they are entitled to the advantage they currently have. In any case that advantage is not as large as it once was. T2 BPO's became considerably less valuable when invention started allowing anyone to create a T2 BPC. As an example the price of a Hulk went from around 500 million isk to around 100 million isk. With invention came the demise of the lottery. No more T2 BPO's given out and lots of T2 BPC's being produced. CCP eliminated the lottery and replaced it with invention specifically to break the lock on the markets held by T2 BPO owners. The idea is that attrition will eventually take its course and T2 BPO's will inevitably disappear. In the meantime, the large advantage the T2 BPO's once held is gone. Windjammer So its okay they they got lucky way back when but its not okay to get lucky now? Where the **** is the logic in that? Windjammer
Toman Jerich Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Windjammer No support. The OP is proposing bringing back the T2 BPO lottery, but this time without the requirement of obtaining RLP's (Research Loyalty Points) from research agents. This would mean that everyone in EVE would have a chance at obtaining a randomly spawned T2 BPO in their hanger. Let's see......who would that benefit? Possibly a really large alliance? Maybe.....goonswarm? Naw. I'm sure that's just paranoia on my part. More people = more chance of someone in the alliance getting the T2 BPO. This is just goonswarm looking for another easy button. I'm told WoW is full of them. Maybe they should check it out. People who have played this game for years are entitled to what they worked for. One of the things that keeps coming out of goonswarm is their belief/desire that people who have been playing a few months should be equal to people that have played for five years. They want instant gratification and large easy buttons. The owners of BPO's are either those who got lucky in the lottery back when it was in place or those that paid enormous sums of isk for them. Either way they are entitled to the advantage they currently have. In any case that advantage is not as large as it once was. T2 BPO's became considerably less valuable when invention started allowing anyone to create a T2 BPC. As an example the price of a Hulk went from around 500 million isk to around 100 million isk. With invention came the demise of the lottery. No more T2 BPO's given out and lots of T2 BPC's being produced. CCP eliminated the lottery and replaced it with invention specifically to break the lock on the markets held by T2 BPO owners. The idea is that attrition will eventually take its course and T2 BPO's will inevitably disappear. In the meantime, the large advantage the T2 BPO's once held is gone. Windjammer Congratulations! You just responded to a parody thread with a seriouspost of over 320 words! That's over 1800 keystrokes at least! You are officially the most dense person who still has the mental capacity to type coherent English sentences...Hertford, tell him what he's won!
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Aprudena Gist So its okay they they got lucky way back when but its not okay to get lucky now? Where the **** is the logic in that? Yes, it was okay then and no, it's not okay now. The logic is inherent in the situation, how it changed and the reasons it changed. My post (#24 of this thread) outlines the reasoning. Your inability to grasp it is either intentional or a genuine lack of competence. Either way it's the response I would have expected from you given your choice in corporations. Windjammer
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Toman Jerich Congratulations! You just responded to a parody thread with a seriouspost of over 320 words! That's over 1800 keystrokes at least! You are officially the most dense person who still has the mental capacity to type coherent English sentences...Hertford, tell him what he's won! In politics, as in life, it's a joke until it isn't. Besides.......why would I pass up an opportunity to put in a well deserved dig to your alliance? Windjammer
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Toman Jerich Congratulations! You just responded to a parody thread with a seriouspost of over 320 words! That's over 1800 keystrokes at least! You are officially the most dense person who still has the mental capacity to type coherent English sentences...Hertford, tell him what he's won! I think it's more a case of "tell him what he's lost".
Danyael Tyren Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:58:00 - [30] Originally by: Windjammer blah blah blah Windjammer While T2 BPO's are worth comparatively less then they once were, it is beyond ****ed to suggest that they do not offer a substantial advantage today. Also, how can you possibly equate winning a lottery with work? Individuals either got lucky or paid vast sums of isk that they have long since made back. The people with T2 BPO's did not acquire them through any means that a sane person could possibly describe as work. And they most assuredly do not somehow deserve the massive advantage the T2 BPO confers. Also, the lottery was discontinued well before I started playing Eve, and I have been here for over a year. What about all the other players who are years old who never had a chance at the T2 lottery? What arbitrary line in the sand do you have in mind for a player to actually matter enough to warrant access to T2 BPO's? Take your elitist *** attitude and GTFO. Windjammer ------ NAPs (nap means we wonÆt kill you today, maybe, but thatÆs all that means unless you help and contribute to coalition or being useful to us there is no obligation for us to keep that +standing



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