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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.15 21:01:00 -
[1]
Obiviously this has been discussed a lot more than I can be arsed to read, but here's my thoughts regardless.
Typhoon is fine as it is. Sure it does require more skill than any other BS to fly, but when you master it, it's one of the best BS's out there.
To my knowledge 1400mm arties still have better Alpha than Tachyons. Plus the Tachyons are harder to fit. DPS is whole different story.
Ammo usage of AC's isn't really a problem, I've never ran out of ammo in combat. All the ships can have more than enough in their cargoholds, if that is decided. Damage is tied to the range, which is also the case with blasters. Except that AC's can still hit further away.
EMP faction ammo had a nice boost with the EMP resistance nerf, they're fine too.
Overall I don't see anything big wrong with the Minmatar ships. There is just broken ships with other races, like the unfamous passive shield tanking Myrmidon which laughs at Drakes.
I agree that some balancing should be done, but I'm just not sure if it's minmatar ships which needs boosting or some other ships which would need a nerfing. Except for the Tempest Fleet Issue. That ship is just worthless.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.15 21:45:00 -
[2]
Three gyrostabbed Tempest with 1400mm T2 arties does abit less DPS and a lot more Alpha than similar Apoc setup with Tachyons, so I don't really know where that comes?
When comparing the two of those ships in normal sniping setups, I don't see any huge difference. Tracking is worse with Tempest, so is optimal range and DPS. Apoc can't shoot over 4 minutes with all guns (bringing down capitals and such), has less Alpha and is over all less mobile.
Of course, there will be specialiced setups where one would excel over another, but that's why they are specialized setups. Tempest can hit over 200km if really wanted to etc.
Before this goes into arguing, I'd like to see what kind of settings you are using when you are saying that it's inferior in every way? :)
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.15 22:51:00 -
[3]
Apocs do need two slow slots of fitting mods, Tempest doesn't.
It also does need two sensor boosters or equilevants to lock over 135km.
Tempest still has over 500 higher Alpha than Apoc without gyrostabs/heatsinks.
But fair enough, it seems like most of the pilots flying minmatar ships are just negative from the beginning and it's pretty pointless to continue this.
Comparing raven to a typhoon is just... wtf? 
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 00:43:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: AstroPhobic
Your new ACS would give the tempest about 490 damage at 30km. While the raven does 1215. Y'know.
I want to see that raven fitting on use.
There's nothing wrong with AC's. Sure it might sound bad on excel, but have you actually ever tried out proper Maelstrom fitting for example?
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 00:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jodie Amille
How does this sound to for ALL artillery?
How does changing the projectile bonus to a torpedo+cruise 5% damage bonus sound for the Typhoon?
That would make it armor tanking Raven?
I can't believe that you guys seriously say that typhoon needs changing. It's most awesome ship when it's fit right. Sure the AC's are not that important part, but where do you figure that it would get the CPU to fit more launchers?
Typhoon doesn't need more damage, it can hit the 1k mark just like every other close range BS.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 00:56:00 -
[6]
It's confirmed, you guys have obiviously lost it.
Go play the game instead of trying to fix something what doesn't need fixing.
Sure I wish all minmatar ships would be best in everything, but the level of effort you guys make to turn something which is already in balance is just silly.
Ps. You do know that lasers do most damage against basic ship res plus they actually do most DPS overall?
ah well, atleast these last couple of posts made me laugh. Not a complete waste of time!
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 01:05:00 -
[7]
So, what is your opinion about balancing scorpion? It can take down every other BS's with ease, something must be done to it I take it?
Just because I don't bother calculating how much Typhoon would need sensor strenght to be only jammable in 1% of the cycles, I do have enough sense left to know that scorpions are not overpowered. But I'm assuming you can prove me wrong too.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 01:37:00 -
[8]
Mathematical solution doesn't usually include tactics and different fittings tho.
Right, just in case of an argue. That 1250dps Raven can't have such things as scrambler, webber, MWD on and still have any kind of HP buffer. Typhoon can have all those and do 1000 DPS. I'd put my money on that.
While the tracking sucks, most of the time in case of AC's, either you are flying towards them or they are flying away from you (or vise verse). That eliminates most of the tracking penalty.
There is no BS which can maneuver around fast enough for it to really matter, except for the rare cases of nano machariels and such which relay on huge speed. If a BS activates it's MWD and burns off, you will be following it.
Now this doesn't work for sniping since if you have any brain cells left, you will be aligned to warp out point. You won't engage your MWD unless you get threatened by a warp bubble or someone tackling you, that eliminates the high speeds which would make tracking harder on long ranges. If you get shot at, you will be trying to warp off immediately (depending on the amount of damage you receive), which will be very short time (if there's no lag, or you aren't warp disrupted by anything). Hence the Alpha Matters issue, you don't have more than 5-10 seconds time from the initial hit until the target warps away, unless he has a dead wish.
My two cents, once again.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 01:48:00 -
[9]
You probably have no clue about BS PvP (small, medium or large size), judging by the comments. Sorry, but that's the feeling I get.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 02:08:00 -
[10]
Here you go, I pit this against all those fittings you made and only the megathron has a chance if he doesn't get jammed by the ECM drones. Granted that they were bad fittings on some parts.
Typhoon
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 02:20:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mythrell on 16/08/2008 02:20:14
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 16/08/2008 01:42:53
You just went off into some space that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Anyway, alpha DOESNT matter because a freakin' GEDDON puts out more DPS in the time it takes to align in a mael. It's not alpha, it's damage over the time it takes to align and warp. It only REALLY matters if alpha on arties were to be meaningful.
Yes, that would be the case with solo sniper ship. In a fleet you don't align and warp away, you warp away when you have to. Point is that higher alpha means that your TARGET doesn't have those seconds to press warp button since he's already aligned and just waiting.
True, Alpha sniping got nerfed when HP buffers came in, thanks to DDD fittings etc, but still basics haven't changed. If you don't smite him with first volley, he has a chance to run.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 02:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Even if the FC could press f1 and make every sniper battleship in the fleet fire at the same time, the difference is so small it's negligible. Don't think for a second that in a 50 vs 50 fleet fight that you would survive a 50 megathron volley, let alone an apoc or tempest. That's certainly not how it works and is theory at best.
I'm sure you'll say "every bit counts", which it does. So does having competent snipers, good DPS, good EHP, good lock range, and appropriate clip sizes. If you think for a second that fleet fights are all about the alpha that a single ship generates - you're pretty much hopeless. I can't tell you the number of times I've been aligned to my warp out covert ops and mashed the warp button 50 times while still in armor (Flying a minmatar BS with an "A" name is a deathwish). You pretty much watch your ship die while you have no control over it. This is all assuming you're too incompetent to field dictors or interceptors or any kind of bubble like any fleet worth it's salt does.
So you pretty much are saying that in theoretic, mathematical way projectiles would be better than any other weapons? That's an interesting change of opinion.
I call it balance.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 03:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Boz Well
You tend to be talking about 1v1 battleship fights, which happen rarely, if ever, outside of friendly fights/SiSi. "No BS can go fast enough so tracking is irrelevant".. right. "Raven can't tackle".. right. As far as Alpha, you can't simply look at 1 BS warping away, but rather should look at how alpha affects both sides of a fleet battle, and specifically look at how higher DPS affects the fleet battle. Cherry picking a specific few seconds of a much larger battle in an attempt to show that alpha has meaning is just silly. People have run simulations of a high alpha fleet versus a less alpha/higher dps fleet, and the result shows that alpha ends up being rather meaningless these days when compared to DPS. Maybe if we were talking a LOT more alpha than other weapons then you could justify artillery's suckiness, but when your alpha is approximately the same as a Tachyon laser, it's just a losing argument imo.
Yes, but when you look at the other sniper setups, you can see that Tempest for example boasts better DPS than for example sniper Megathron or Rokh with similar fitting. Only tachyons do a lot more DPS, which in my opinion tells that they most likely are the unbalanced guns. After all, that is where everyone keeps comparing other ships.
As my points were in the earlier post, I don't see the tracking as big bad point as people tend to make it due to simple way how BS vs BS fights go. Sure, you can hit better with Megathron on zooming vagabond, and you can snipe from max range with Rokh, or you can shoot POS without needing ammo with Apoc. Tempest lacks this kind of "special thing" when you disregard alpha damage.
Your points with Raven cannot tackle and BS cannot go fast enough are just twisting of my words, I did state my reasons for saying both.
For the troll I've been feeding for the cheap laughs, 50 megathrons would theoreticly push around 75k damage in one volley, which is not enough with the current DDD fittings. Tempests would double that and even more.
Anyways, you either got my point or didn't. I honestly don't think that there's any huge balance issues with minmatar ships. I do think there's some broken ships in other races, like the previously mentioned 900+ damage soaking passive shield tanking myrmidon.
I'm happy with my minmatar BS's. AC's are fine. Artillery is pretty good. Tempest Fleet Issue is still crap.
I'm out, have a nice one.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 04:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Are you high? Tempest has worse DPS than all of the above, combined with worse EHP.
You got me scared with this one, I thought I made a mistake.
Apoc: 401 DPS
Tempest: 356 DPS
Megathron: 351 DPS
Rokh: 321 DPS
Yes, with long range T2 ammo.
Either I'm doing something wrong or you're doing something wrong.
Or then it's the case of shooting with fall off?
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.16 05:57:00 -
[15]
My bad, it looks like the Tempest still makes an excellent close range machine as well, you just need to get a bit innovative on the fitting.
Makes it even better. :)
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:46:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mythrell on 19/08/2008 12:46:55
Ok, here's something I did with my spare time. Yes, EFT graphs. I bet someone else has done them too but atleast in my graphs I don't see Minmatar BS's or AC's failing as much as everyone keep telling me. Sure they don't do best DPS but surely not worst either.
EFT graphs
enjoy, lots of pics inside.
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Mythrell
Omega Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:10:00 -
[17]
Beating the ships not in the list (apoc, domi, scorp) and Rokh, hyperion doesn't count I guess? Every Minmatar BS does higher DPS than these, granted that apoc and domi will have some range advantage.
Only Raven, Armageddon, Abaddon and Megathron do more DPS to large ships.
And the Raven is only ship which cannot be disabled by two heavy neuts while none of the Minmatar ships would suffer at all from that. ~150 DPS Difference also gets smaller if you don't have all skills to lvl 5, which would go for the 98% of the player base. |
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