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CCP are solving the isk farmer issue.

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Zo5o Gallente Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.08.18 06:10:00 - [61] Edited by: Zo5o on 18/08/2008 06:12:09 If you nerf hisec income, and do not nerf losec income equally, less players will be able to fund second and third accounts through GTC's whether GTC prices drop or not, and CCP will lose money. The GTC prices will not drop as much as the hisec mission running income, because those who choose to move to losec will make even more isk than before relative to the hisec runners to spend on GTCs, and the countless thousands of risk-averse players who fund primary, second and third accounts with GTCs will make far less isk. The result will be a net loss in subscriptions, since, to the risk-averse mission runners (who ARE the majority, like it or not), the price of GTCs relative to their income will go up. Aside from the merits of "Eve should be a cold and harsh pvp game," or however you look at it... if you are running Eve as a business, and the largest portion of your playerbase is risk-averse carebears, and many of them fund their gametime by paying ISK to other players who pay you for the GTC's... does it make business sense to heavily nerf the ISK income of such a large playerbase? So if anyone out there is wondering why hisec income hasn't already been severely nerfed... it's the same reason people across the globe IRL have gone to war for thousands of years... money! Yay money! I know that nobody here wants to see Eve turned into WOW, but at the same time, I'm sure CCP wouldn't mind bringing in 1.7 billion US dollars in subscription fees a year like Blizzard does... I'm not advocating a position from a gameplay standpoint here re: nerfing hisec income, mind you. Simply letting everyone who REALLY wants it to happen know that it ain't bloody likely, and if it does happen it probably won't be nearly as severe of a nerf as you'd like.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.18 06:27:00 - [62] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn They will just rent space from 0.0 alliances and rat out there, and then the alliance leadership will get thier single account banned rather than the thousands of ISK farmer accounts. Just One Example... You'd know, I suppose. So... how'd you get out of that 6.5B hole? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.18 06:30:00 - [63] Originally by: Black Phlanx Edited by: Black Phlanx on 18/08/2008 02:29:59 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Black Phlanx EVERYONE can run L4's and make a nice chunk of change off of it, they aren't going to nerf it. Actually, THAT is precisely the problem. Everyone can, and everyone does, or has an alt (or two, or three) that does it. Quote: i do not see what the deal is with people trying to force others into going into low-sec or null-sec if they don't wish to. This is EVE you know... game is supposed to be about complete FREEDOM and the ability for everyone to play how they want to play. Who's FORCING you to go to lowsec ? Nobody. Your desire for ISK should make you want to go there. Right now, there's no reason to. If highsec mission-running income (NOT just L4s, ALL levels) would be significantly lower than lowsec income, more people will eventually move there. Those that wish to stay in highsec can do that... ...but they're not supposed to be ABLE to make the same cash as a lowsec/0.0 dweller can. Freedom ? Always. Equality in spite of (lack of) risks ? HELL NO ! Did you miss the above posts? People stating that they should nerf the high-sec missions to drive people into low-sec. That's what I was talking about. People shouldn't have to go to low-sec to make isk. What's next, nerfing contracts cuz haulers are operating out of high-sec and making more isk then people in low-sec? Er, yes actually, they should. Higher rewards should require higher risk. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Carrier Eleven Gallente EVE Posting Service	Posted - 2008.08.18 08:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Black Phlanx I say stop *****ing about everything that doesn't suit your personal expectations. This is EVE you know... game is supposed to be about complete FREEDOM and the ability for everyone to play how they want to play. OH C'mon!! Don't you know that 90% of us are only here to provide the minority of l337 PvP'ers easy targets and phat lewtz. Load that BS to the gills with faction fittings and go forth into low sec already!! Its your destiny according to the minority!!
Lyvv Amarr Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.18 10:08:00 - [65] Edited by: Lyvv on 18/08/2008 10:10:12 One curious thing that comes to mind: Sites that are listed on the forums as some kind of resource are actively advertising links to ISK Sellers. Take a look at this mission guide resource, as an example: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=347028 There you will find link called "Eve-Info missions database" http://eveinfo.com/forum/4-angel-extravaganza-t588.html There, in the top frame of the page, you will see different advertising links, most all of them leading to 3rd party ISK Selling Sites. Just hit the refresh button a few times until you see one.... 1st thing CCP should do imo is ban sites listed as a resource here. CCP is actively contributing to those sites, like eveinfo.com to make money from ISK purchases with real money. Ironically, CCP is contributing probably 99% of the potential ISK buying customers via these links themselves. EDIT: Same with http://www.eve-extra.com/agt_corps.php - bottom frame shows links to Eve Online Items, ISK ships and more... funny shit tbh. Go stick it to CCP imo
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.18 10:46:00 - [66] Simple, allow players to join pirate NPC factions. Concord will ignore those players just like how they ignore the NPC pirates, the faction navy will attack(but not scramble), but they aren't concord omnipotent, also disallow docking for those players. Then give them the same aggression rules as normal players in highsec. Anyone with an aggression timer against the pirate aligned player's faction can be freely attacked with no concord intervention.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.18 10:47:00 - [67] Originally by: Lyvv Edited by: Lyvv on 18/08/2008 10:10:12 One curious thing that comes to mind: Sites that are listed on the forums as some kind of resource are actively advertising links to ISK Sellers. Take a look at this mission guide resource, as an example: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=347028 There you will find link called "Eve-Info missions database" http://eveinfo.com/forum/4-angel-extravaganza-t588.html There, in the top frame of the page, you will see different advertising links, most all of them leading to 3rd party ISK Selling Sites. Just hit the refresh button a few times until you see one.... 1st thing CCP should do imo is ban sites listed as a resource here. CCP is actively contributing to those sites, like eveinfo.com to make money from ISK purchases with real money. Ironically, CCP is contributing probably 99% of the potential ISK buying customers via these links themselves. EDIT: Same with http://www.eve-extra.com/agt_corps.php - bottom frame shows links to Eve Online Items, ISK ships and more... funny shit tbh. Go stick it to CCP imo Fail. These links are generated by google ads, which has nothing to do with CCP or the sites themselves.
Lyvv Amarr Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.18 10:54:00 - [68] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Lyvv Edited by: Lyvv on 18/08/2008 10:10:12 One curious thing that comes to mind: Sites that are listed on the forums as some kind of resource are actively advertising links to ISK Sellers. Take a look at this mission guide resource, as an example: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=347028 There you will find link called "Eve-Info missions database" http://eveinfo.com/forum/4-angel-extravaganza-t588.html There, in the top frame of the page, you will see different advertising links, most all of them leading to 3rd party ISK Selling Sites. Just hit the refresh button a few times until you see one.... 1st thing CCP should do imo is ban sites listed as a resource here. CCP is actively contributing to those sites, like eveinfo.com to make money from ISK purchases with real money. Ironically, CCP is contributing probably 99% of the potential ISK buying customers via these links themselves. EDIT: Same with http://www.eve-extra.com/agt_corps.php - bottom frame shows links to Eve Online Items, ISK ships and more... funny shit tbh. Go stick it to CCP imo Fail. These links are generated by google ads, which has nothing to do with CCP or the sites themselves. EPIC FAIL on your end, muppet. The source sites added google.adds to their top / buttom frames
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.18 12:09:00 - [69] Originally by: Black Phlanx Ok so that would just completely turn anyone away from even wanting to play EVE being told that, oh because you're not in a corp and you're new and don't know jack, we're just going to force you to stay in weak ships and not be able to even begin to be able to increase your income by running missions, because you won't be able to fly them since your ship will eventually be outclassed by the missions that you're running. All because we're going to screw you on your experiance because a select few in low-sec don't want you to make more isk then them in High-sec space. Because that makes sense. Just like people *****ing about mission runners getting isk when you can freaking "buy" it through GTC's. Double standard anyone? First of all there are no weak ships, only unskilled players (both in terms of real SP count and actual in-game experience.) Second, cruisers are the limit for trial accounts last I heard. If people want to stay in newb corps then let them be treated like newbs... but as I said, no weak ships. You can rat most spawns up to around 1.2 mil bounty ships in a T-1 fit tier 3 cruiser with good support skills, so limiting someone to a cruiser isn't necessarily the end of the world. It would however prompt people to leave the NPC corp once they are ready to do level 4's. I don't care about mission runners. I'm not one of the people advocating for Level 4's all to be moved to Low Sec. I'm just looking for some way to cut the virtual invulnerability of the people farming ISK for the ISK sellers.
Xavier Zedicus Priory of Zorrabed	Posted - 2008.08.18 12:58:00 - [70] Edited by: Xavier Zedicus on 18/08/2008 13:01:14 Quote: allow people to buy temporary kill rights against players YES!!! EXCELLENT!! The ability for a player or a corp to buy ( even if at a high price ) the right attack at will a person of there choice in a npc corp like a mini-war Dec. This price should be relatively expensive compared to say a standard war Dec ( to compensate for all the extra paperwork that has to be done for such a focused arrangement) the only problem being finding a way to balance it so that one cannot simply grieve incessantly. also reading on the current topic in the Topic- some of the best lvl 4's are already in low sec not to mention lvl 5 exclusive in low sec.

Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:01:00 - [71] Interesting that the farmers must have picked up a book of English names to make characters a bit more realistic. Name + stab 3 closely grouped random letters on the keyboard seems to be the order of the day there. dorothy + gfh doreen + jkl jocelyn + nkm Still fairly nonsense and rubbish, but a bit harder to spot than "xxgdsef".
Mr Pentex	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:03:00 - [72] Why not just leave lvl4 missions as they are and only raise the bounty/loot and so on for nul/lowsec areas? In that way players who want to grind mission still can make the isj as it is now, and thouse who want the danger and make more money can do that? You should be able to make good isk just doing missions to fit you mission boats. Sounds stupid to lower isk making for highsec and raising it for nul/lowsec just so more player wants go go there.
Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:13:00 - [73] Originally by: Mr Pentex Why not just leave lvl4 missions as they are and only raise the bounty/loot and so on for nul/lowsec areas? In that way players who want to grind mission still can make the isj as it is now, and thouse who want the danger and make more money can do that? You should be able to make good isk just doing missions to fit you mission boats. Making ISK to fit your mission boats is nice, but it only appeals to the (very) casual player and those who get bored after 3-4 months' worth of playing. In reality, most of the high sec L4 missions are done by ISK farmers for sweatshops and by 0.0 alliance alts who have no better way to earn ISK in 0.0 due to their area being crowded / it being dangerous / mining sucking etc. Quote: Sounds stupid to lower isk making for highsec and raising it for nul/lowsec just so more player wants go go there. Yes, it's stupid and it'd have to be nerfed quite a bit for people to go to lowsec/0.0 instead. Even if all L4 agents were moved out of high sec, people would be running L3's instead. Look at the agent distribution for example - where in 0.0 NPC space can you find enough good agents to compete with the high sec mission hubs and how could 100+ mission runners run their missions in such a system without being camped all the time by 300 PVPers? It's simply not doable as long as EVE is this crowded (or this small). So the only way to allow as many people to use L4's as their main source of ISK is to leave them in high sec. While lowsec is notoriously under-populated due to various reasons, I don't see why L4's in high sec should be nerfed.
Marie Trudeau Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:23:00 - [74] Originally by: Lazuran Even if all L4 agents were moved out of high sec, people would be running L3's instead. This is what I think as well. Most people who run a lot of missions, I think, would be well willing to trade the security for lower rewards -- it tends to be a pretty darned risk averse group.
Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Marie Trudeau Originally by: Lazuran Even if all L4 agents were moved out of high sec, people would be running L3's instead. This is what I think as well. Most people who run a lot of missions, I think, would be well willing to trade the security for lower rewards -- it tends to be a pretty darned risk averse group. Of course, risk is a cost factor and usually it is too expensive because the potential loss grows disproportionally with the increased hourly income (very expensive fittings/ships for small speedup). Now, if L4 missions in 0.0 paid 2-3 times more than those in 0.5, I might even risk a passive tanked drake now and then ...
Lyvv Amarr Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:33:00 - [76] Though, lets not forget one thing. CCP exists to make money and not to cater to the end-users. If they have to choose between making 25 million dollars more or actually saving and or improving the game, they'd go for the 25 million dollars and think "we can always fix things later". Why else do we look at a ****ing lag fest if 2 fleets of 30 people each decide to clash together in one system. Their "Massive Multiplaying Experience" - as CCP calls it is limited to 40 man hitting one system, or it is limited to having 50,000 people online at the same time, but spread throughout 60 Oracle Nodes. But it sounds awesome, "massive fleet engagements" - lets use that as a "feature". CCP is a business. Subscribers are money. If they streamline Eve, it means that the empire mission running nubs and the chinese sweatshops are profiting from that. And who do you think cries the loudest on these forums? The 0.0 corp members or the empire nubs getting wtfpwned by nano ships? You'd lose trying to make sense of it all. Mainly because the real reasons CCP certainly isnt gonna post.
Loyal Servant Caldari PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:36:00 - [77] CCP will never ban farmers. Plain and simple. Now, CCP 'might have' banned some alliance titan pilot for bouying isk by his own admission. Renting space to farmers is bad mmkay? I hope that CCP makes more of an example of the alliances that I see floating around that are riddled with isk farmers. So, I hope that was your notice... I will believe they are doing something about farmers when I see less isk farmers in mission hubs and dead-end 0.0 systems.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:38:00 - [78] Only people who could fix the isk farming is the players. Organised, ALL of EVE players, one week, hunt and kill and hunt and kill with no war towards eaachother, just the farmers. It would become none profitable an they would leave. Now, which is more likely? All of EVE actually pulling one rope and fixing the problem, or me getting some alone time with Milla Jovovich in a hottub? My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Lyvv Amarr Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:45:00 - [79] Originally by: Sheriff Jones ...or me getting some alone time with Milla Jovovich in a hottub? There isnt a hot-tub big enough for those long sexy legs of hers.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:50:00 - [80] Originally by: Lyvv Originally by: Sheriff Jones ...or me getting some alone time with Milla Jovovich in a hottub? There isnt a hot-tub big enough for those long sexy legs of hers. Well, i can always be such a gentleman and offer shoulder-rests I'm naughty... My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.

Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:53:00 - [81] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Only people who could fix the isk farming is the players. Organised, ALL of EVE players, one week, hunt and kill and hunt and kill with no war towards eaachother, just the farmers. Funny idea, not very realistic: - "ISK farming" is a perfectly legal and normal play style in EVE (yes, really) - The average ISK farmer nowdays is smarter than the average PVPer (believe me, I've met quite a few of them, they know all the tricks/exploits to escape, they always watch local etc.) Seriously, ISK sellers are not having a large impact on EVE (this char lives in Emolgranlan, never sees any spam in local), I suspect that GTC=>ISK harms the game balance much more. The logical conclusion is that CCP is only trying to protect their own income since they sell ISK through GTCs themselves (sadly). Also, while I cannot prove it due to lack of detailed knowledge of particular examples, I'm sure that larger ISK/RMT deals are done in a very obscured way nowdays. For example, by trading large amounts of items, then selling them as hidden assets of low SP characters for mostly OOG money (and some "reasonable" ISK). E.g. you have a 5m SP character with some officer gear or comparable expensive stuff like Titan BPOs (= the ISK), you put it in a GSC at a safespot and keep the bookmark. Then you "sell" that character for a reasonable sum to the ISK buyer, who also sends you OOG funds for the actual wealth he is receiving. Presto, he just bought a few billions worth of officer gear for some money, CCP will never suspect anything unless you leave some ingame communication as evidence. Just one of many ways (probably not the most practical one) to sell ISK without making CCP suspicious. (yes, I have too much time today)
Kai Jyokoroi The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:23:00 - [82] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Here's an idea. How about anyone in an NPC corp can't fly anything above a battlecruiser? Now THAT is an idea I approve of. How to enforce it, I have no idea (I see a million NPC carebear CNR muggles never docking again) - but still, it's a good idea. ---------------------- GIEF MISSL
Kai Jyokoroi The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.08.18 14:32:00 - [83] Originally by: Lyvv EPIC FAIL on your end, muppet. Since you know soooo much about web contents - perhaps you might want to think about what needs to be in place on the source site in order to display google adds. Further, you might want to ask yourself what this is: adurl=http://www.evecookies.com&client=ca-pub-9540479539637071&nm=7 Looks like a referral code to me, but what do I know...I am sure this site is not making 15 cents per image impression....the site is not making 15 cents per viewer hitting that link....there are no such income / revenues to be made... In case you didnt know. Online stores PAY good money to have google adds display their link first. Google adds in turn pays sites, who use google adds with specific keywords, such as EVE ONLINE ISK SHIPS ITEMS and what not, and pays them for driving traffic their way. When you see a post, stop for a minute and actually think about what you write. You do, however, get an "A" for reading, an "A+" for writing and an "F" for judgment. I work for a web agency doing, amongst other things, Google paid advertising. You are completely confusing the difference between the AdSense and AdWords advertising programs. One of these sites pay to use, one of these Google pays sites to have on their pages. I feel no desire to educate you further, but suffice to say, you are very, very wrong. ---------------------- GIEF MISSL
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 15:10:00 - [84] Chaos incarnate is the prettiest Achura i've ever seen! also i think i'm going to have a little venture out to Sivala and see if i can remove a few of those silly peeps flying around CNRs.
Lyvv Amarr Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.18 16:01:00 - [85] Edited by: Lyvv on 18/08/2008 16:02:09 Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi Originally by: Lyvv EPIC FAIL on your end, muppet. Since you know soooo much about web contents - perhaps you might want to think about what needs to be in place on the source site in order to display google adds. Further, you might want to ask yourself what this is: adurl=http://www.evecookies.com&client=ca-pub-9540479539637071&nm=7 Looks like a referral code to me, but what do I know...I am sure this site is not making 15 cents per image impression....the site is not making 15 cents per viewer hitting that link....there are no such income / revenues to be made... In case you didnt know. Online stores PAY good money to have google adds display their link first. Google adds in turn pays sites, who use google adds with specific keywords, such as EVE ONLINE ISK SHIPS ITEMS and what not, and pays them for driving traffic their way. When you see a post, stop for a minute and actually think about what you write. You do, however, get an "A" for reading, an "A+" for writing and an "F" for judgment. I work for a web agency doing, amongst other things, Google paid advertising. You are completely confusing the difference between the AdSense and AdWords advertising programs. One of these sites pay to use, one of these Google pays sites to have on their pages. I feel no desire to educate you further, but suffice to say, you are very, very wrong. No need to educate me dude, really dont care about the web site content. Shitty paid profession if you ask me... The general concept and content of my post is what you missed. I said that 2 web sites listed by CCP as so called "resource sites" have links to Eve ISK and Item Sellers and that they receive cash (have an interest) to use Google AdSense. Obviously, AdSense pays the site which rents the space in form of a small banner to google. They get paid by click-through or impression, dont care which. AdWords is used by sites to have their links come up on google if people search for Eve ISK or whatever else. Fact of the matter is though, and that was the whole point, that these paid services or revenue generating services are being used and that some sites (I didnt check all of the resource sites) actually see quite a lot of traffic from CCP themselves. I found that Ironic, and not that you are some highly skilled web content ****.
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:24:00 - [86] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn They will just rent space from 0.0 alliances and rat out there, and then the alliance leadership will get thier single account banned rather than the thousands of ISK farmer accounts. Just One Example... You'd know I suppose. So... how'd you get out of that 6.5B hole? RL Money. Legally. How do you like that?
Chaos Incarnate Has No Face	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:36:00 - [87] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Chaos incarnate is the prettiest Achura i've ever seen! also i think i'm going to have a little venture out to Sivala and see if i can remove a few of those silly peeps flying around CNRs. Its true, i am the bestest achura ever Also, good luck...send me 10% of your earnings as payment for giving you the idea Quote: "Rabble Rabble Rabble!" "Just sitting out here saying "Rabble Rabble" isn't going to fix anything!" "But we don't know what else to do!" "Rabble Rabble Rabble!"
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:47:00 - [88] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 18/08/2008 17:52:42 Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi Originally by: 5pinDizzy Here's an idea. How about anyone in an NPC corp can't fly anything above a battlecruiser? Now THAT is an idea I approve of. How to enforce it, I have no idea (I see a million NPC carebear CNR muggles never docking again) - but still, it's a good idea. It wouldn't need to be enforced. It'd be done in a very similar way to how they deny stuff to trial accounts. In terms of work at the CCP end it's akin to the flick of a switch. Only real difference is you'll probably just see an army of drakes spewing out the mission hubs instead, but at least it would put a severe dent in their operations. And besides the real issue that disgusts me and brings me to go into ship restrictions in the first place is the long line of Elite Battleships all marching out the level 4 agent stations 1 after another in NPC corps. It disgusts me because what should be a more beautiful and rarer site that is a faction battleship is instead more common then the free noobships, spewing out every agent station in every corner of the universe to farm and pony up isk for zero risk. But if that person is in a corp, fair enough, despite the risk being absolutely miniscule as they get a 24 hour warning and a corp mail. At least I can appreciate someone in a corp has to accept certain realities that maybe someone will dec and that they that may have to use a regular battleship for a few days thats about as good as a faction one anyway to mission running and you'll get most of your isk back for if you're caught anyway if you plat insure. I remember when people actually used to lose ships on level 4's now it's practically unheard of. Especially once you've done them all once before. When I take a step back and look at the Eve world. I can't help but feel and see so much that seems to be broken. Only to realise that it's become what people have wanted it to become. Highsec : MASS L4 GRIND FOR SHINY SHINY. Lowsec : THAT THING YOU PASS THROUGH ON THE WAY TO NULL. Nullsec : MIND NUMBING TEDIUM OF 3 HOURS FLEET LOGISTICS BEFORE LAG/INSTAPOP.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Exxxotic	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:29:00 - [89] this is why npc players need to be forced out of npc corps after a few months with increasing taxes <-- 3 months - no tax 3+ months 25% 6+ 50% 9+ 75 12+ 100 new players have time to get the game basics after 3 months, also meand farmers cant continue to hide behind there immune vale
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:32:00 - [90] Originally by: Stevens Originally by: Black Phlanx People just want 0.0 and lowsec to be more profitable, you know that whole risk vs reward thing. High-sec = low risk = low reward low-sec = some risk = some reward null-sec = most risk = most reward Not what have now High-sec = low risk = most reward low-sec = some risk = some reward null-sec = most risk = some reward Empire should be where most of the resources and rewards are. Lowsec and nullsec are barren wastelands nobody cares to visit, otherwise the empires would have converted it into empire space already --- "There is no lag in Jita, NEVER!" - Iraqi Information Minister



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