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The new metagaming form is coming, is your alliance leadership ready?

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Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Trathen ITT: People jumping to conclusions with half the story. This is like an episode of Nancy Grace, only slightly better. That's fair comment, but let's take a moment to review what happened last time someone played the "you don't have all the facts" card. A GM posted in the thread and completely wtfpwned his excuses. Oh yes I won't take sides on this story but from what I've seen before, GMs tend to be justified in any ban. Its too bad they don't make it a practice to make the reasons public ;) _
Farham Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:09:00 - [62] "In the current case the Daisho explanation makes perfect sense, you can't just ignore that." If you believe their explanation. Thats the funny part. No one believes CCP but they will die supporting "that nice guy I know because he would never lie". You know the Daisho incident isn't a cut and dry case of ISK buyer/seller caught red handed because? Thats right, you don't. Why hang around with a bunch of boobs when you can play with a nice set of TITTS? Titan Industries Technology Team
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:17:00 - [63] Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 18/08/2008 18:17:46 Originally by: Kuolematon Hello, I was just wondering that when will IRL rich Goonswarm take new metagaming steps to ensure destruction of their foes. Now your wondering what am I talking about here .. new metagaming? Simple just buy billions of ISK's from ISK sellers and say that your char is some high level alliance leader and bam! They are banned. Good luck for trying to explain that you didn't bought that ISK or similar stuff. Easy and fast way to frack up your enemies. Does not work. You lose $$$ as CCP reverses the isk transaction. Victim laughs in your face along with GM's as victim tells GM's someone is sending him billions. Bit like in real life, if a Drugs baron puts 50mil in your account. Oh you mean dashio alliance leader who was caught skimming alliance isk? Oh you do not know what really happened, did you? Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:17:00 - [64] Originally by: Ranger 1 You are very naive I'm afraid. I was going to leave it at that but lets take a moment to flesh this out. A: In the situation of the Titan pilot, he was well aware of who his renters were and where the isk came from. He'd be an idiot not to. It's not hard to figure out who isk sellers/farmers are. Quick, apply for a job at CCP, they have trouble finding farmers. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:20:00 - [65] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Ranger 1 You are very naive I'm afraid. I was going to leave it at that but lets take a moment to flesh this out. A: In the situation of the Titan pilot, he was well aware of who his renters were and where the isk came from. He'd be an idiot not to. It's not hard to figure out who isk sellers/farmers are. Quick, apply for a job at CCP, they have trouble finding farmers. Seems like they can find buyers easily enough though. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:21:00 - [66] Originally by: Stevens Do you know what rent is? And how is a judgement call for goons if as far as they are concerned someone is paying them to live in their space. BoB did it for years and had no issues with it. Err... I think I said above that you could rent to isk sellers with little to no risk. I was talking about the hypothetical scenario that someone posed where Goon scammed the isk sellers out of 20b. CCP might believe that once, but if they claim to be doing it every week CCP will probably assume that there is some cash trading hands under the table and hammer them sooner or later. The more often it happens, especially if the same isk sellers are involved, the less believable it becomes. Moral of the story, if you engage in shit that looks shady, you're taking a risk that CCP will take the position that it's shady, and shut you down. The more you do it, the bigger the risk. Quote: Protip: If a bank transfers your $100,000 and you close the account they are not entitled to it back. The same argument doesn't work with CCP although. Protip: I think you might want to stick with funny money transactions. Your knowledge of the real world is a little lacking.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:22:00 - [67] Originally by: Stevens Do you know what rent is? And how is a judgement call for goons if as far as they are concerned someone is paying them to live in their space. BoB did it for years and had no issues with it. Ho ho ho It was not rent. Never trust a criminal's exceuse. Remember that program with crish hanson catching people red handed? What did almost everybody do? They told a lie or pretended they were innocent. Ask for proof first. Strange how he is leaving eve suddenly if he is innocent? Yeah right. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:34:00 - [68] Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 18/08/2008 18:35:58 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Lubomir Penev Quick, apply for a job at CCP, they have trouble finding farmers. Seems like they can find buyers easily enough though. Since the farmers are very much in business it's likely CCP is barely scrapping the tip of the RMT iceberg. Considering they don't seem do dedicate much resources to the issue it's hardly surprising. Tbh the Daisho guy look more like a CCP PR stunt. Originally by: CCP PR Look, we are doing something about RMT, we even have the backbone to go after 0.0 alliance. No those guys running courrier mission 24/7 in their bestower are legitimate, so are the 24/7 ice miners and the 24/7 0.0 belters, we just told you we fought RMT. There are no farmers in EVE.
Angelic Orange Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:36:00 - [69] Originally by: Lazuran Edited by: Lazuran on 18/08/2008 12:26:13 Originally by: Atlas Elestra [ Don't really feel like getting into the details of my life that are none of your business. But a game having a way for someone to play for free I think is a good thing, regardless of what your economic situation is. From the distorted perspective of an addict it is a good thing, from CCP's it's a good thing also because they get their part of the deal anyway. From any other perspective it is bad, as it takes away said person's time to improve their economic situation or deal with life in general, it fuels the RMT market, it ties up server resources with "professional ISK farming" activities (which is basically what you do) and it makes macroing more worthwhile. Sorry to be brutally honest. So, if you don't rat or mine or mission to get isk, then what do you do? The only options left are scamming people or playing the market. Both of which are also mind numbingly slow operations. Honestly you make no sense and your views about isk for game time are completely out of wack.
cal nereus Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:58:00 - [70] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Gojyu It doesn't quite work that way - Targetted player notices a few extra billion isk in his account that wasn't there yesterday - Targetted player puts in a petition asking about said isk - GM realises isk was from farmer, the isk is taken from target's account - GM thanks target for his help. Or alternatively - Targetted player keeps isk - GM notices transaction and takes isk - Targetted player may be in negatives if he spent all of it, but then again, he's got several billion isk in assets he can now sell to make up for it Your plan relies on ccp banning isk buyers. They don't. You forgot the part where the GM takes not only the isk balance from your account, but also the assets you purchased with it. So now you have a negative wallet and none of the assets you purchased with dirty money. A smart individual wouldn't buy anything with the isk. Once they notice the embellished wallet they petition immediately. The logs will reveal the truth, the correct amount of isk will be removed, the source investigated, and everything returns to normal. The person who receives the isk can't lose if they petition immediately upon noticing the extra isk.

Ekrid	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:30:00 - [71] Originally by: Ranger 1 That second quote pretty much sums up my response, and future lack of response. Obvious troll is Obvious. Interesting you overlooked the whole money laundering line in my post... I guess it either didn't suit our purpose OR you had no idea that recieving stolen money will be confiscated and you can be held culpable whether you claim to know it was stolen or not. For those that keep saying it's not the players job to determine whether the isk they are given is stolen or not don't realize that it actually doesn't matter. It will go bye bye and there may be consequences for you as well... so perhaps you should make it your job to determine where your repeated "windfalls" come from eh? Ignorance is a poor excuse. Have fun kids. Out. The only problem with this idiot's logic is there are ways in real life to check whether a car is stolen or not. THere is no way to check whether the isk you receive is from an isk seller. He apparently thinks farming isk is illegal. Isk seller gives ISK for rented space != buying isk from said isk seller. isk seller gives isk for rented space = any other player giving isk for rented space. where does the isk seller get their isk? from other legitimate players through trade, or by running missions. They can't manifest it at will, and they can't hack it into the game, or do you think that they do either of these and just 23/7 ISK farm for fun? so in conclusion ranger 1 = fing idiot
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:34:00 - [72] You all miss the point. Most of RMT isk comes from alliances. Not from courier missions etc. Anyhow you do not know CCP's side of the argument. Remember every episode of Chris Hanson's shows where he catches a criminal red handed has the criminal always pretending he was innocent. Think.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:04:00 - [73] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Since the farmers are very much in business it's likely CCP is barely scrapping the tip of the RMT iceberg. Considering they don't seem do dedicate much resources to the issue it's hardly surprising. Tbh the Daisho guy look more like a CCP PR stunt. The farmers are still in business because they aren't the ones who really get burned when a transaction is unwound. The buyer does. The seller still has their real money. The buyer is just out the isk. The basic problem is that an isk seller can, on average, earn more real money with an account before it gets banned than it cost to set it up. CCP could make it a lot harder by phasing out GTCs and requiring a real credit card to pay for game time, but that would severely limit who they could do business with. Originally by: CCP PR Look, we are doing something about RMT, we even have the backbone to go after 0.0 alliance. No those guys running courrier mission 24/7 in their bestower are legitimate, so are the 24/7 ice miners and the 24/7 0.0 belters, we just told you we fought RMT. There are no farmers in EVE. There are farmers in every MMO in existance. In most it's worse than it is in Eve. Would you be willing to pay 60 bucks a month to play a "farmer free" eve? Would you be willing to use a real credit card to play, rather than paying for time with a GTC that you bought through Paypal? If everyone said yes, you could have a "farmer free" eve. CCP could hire the huge GM staff they'd need to investigate every account that seems to be online more than humanly possible. By requiring a "real" credit card, they could fairly quickly ban every known card of isk sellers and effectively shut them out of the game. However, the answer, of course, is that not that many people are going to play a 60 dollar a month Eve that they have to pay for with a credit card, so you're left with a situation where a limited GM staff is going to pick off the most obvious offenders, and isk sellers are going to set up new, anonymous accounts as fast as they get banned. RMT actually serves an important purpose in MMOs. It effectively transfers "time played" from the "power gamers" to players who have more money than time. Without it, in some form, there would be no way for those who can't play 60 hours a week to compete with those who can. When the deciding factor in the game is how much you can play, the game quickly becomes unattractive to everyone but the "power gamers" and there just aren't enough of those to support an MMO. I think CCP did the right thing in providing a legitimate channel to achieve that balance. I think it's good that they do go after those who choose not to play by the rules, and I understand that short of severely limiting their potential player base, there isn't anything they're going to do to get rid of black market RMT. No game publisher to date has been able to, and it's unrealistic to think that CCP is going to be the exception.
Doddy Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:18:00 - [74] Originally by: Ekrid oh cant you? legitimate player banned for having isk transferred into his wallet repeatedly from isk sellers. Says who tbh. This guy got his mate who makes isk from isk sellers to fund his titan. In what way is that similar to isk sellers sending you unasked for isk?
Doddy Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:20:00 - [75] Originally by: Farham "In the current case the Daisho explanation makes perfect sense, you can't just ignore that." If you believe their explanation. Thats the funny part. No one believes CCP but they will die supporting "that nice guy I know because he would never lie". You know the Daisho incident isn't a cut and dry case of ISK buyer/seller caught red handed because? Thats right, you don't. Apart from anything Daisho say they are still discussing the matter with ccp, it is normal for accounts etc to be banned while investigations are under wy.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:22:00 - [76] bitter daisho alt in the op?? i think so
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:25:00 - [77] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Remember every episode of Chris Hanson's shows where he catches a criminal red handed has the criminal always pretending he was innocent. Think. So... ...you are saying that everyone who is accused is automatically guilty? And if he protests that he is innocent then it is even more proof that he really is guilty? Niiiiiice logic - not.
Handle Bars Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:05:00 - [78] Edited by: Handle Bars on 18/08/2008 21:08:29 Fix? Read here let me know what you think... Will it work?
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.08.19 00:30:00 - [79] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine If everyone said yes, you could have a "farmer free" eve. CCP could hire the huge GM staff they'd need to investigate every account that seems to be online more than humanly possible. Playing more than it's humanly possible is very easy to automatically detect. And if you catch real insomniacs/speed users, well, ban them for their own good tbh. Farmers have to create more accounts and it hurts their bottom line. Also limiting play-time would mean less chance of being sued in a class action for selling an addictive product, and it's likely than some Jack Thomson or whatever his name will do it eventually (not that I think they should or could win something, but defending yourself in court is always costly). My main point is that CCP does an awful job of fighting RMT at the ISK creation level. If anyone with two connected braincells can spend five minutes in Ingunn or Jovainnon and spot ten farming characters why can't a GM do the same?
Lucas Avignon Avignon Associates Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.19 02:40:00 - [80] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo You all miss the point. Most of RMT isk comes from alliances. Not from courier missions etc. Anyhow you do not know CCP's side of the argument. Remember every episode of Chris Hanson's shows where he catches a criminal red handed has the criminal always pretending he was innocent. Think. Jenny you are a ****ing genius, next time I rob a bank for a couple of million and the officers come round to my house to question me, I'll just tell em I did it, cause they will think I didn't do it, as you know well yourself if I was guilty I would just deny it. amirite

Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.19 04:43:00 - [81] Edited by: Davina Braben on 19/08/2008 04:44:42 Godammit. My main got a negative wallet for accepting rent from FGDGHFGDHXXX of FRIENDLY COOL BOYS EVE CORP. How was I supposed to know the money was dirty? He contacted me one day asking for ratting rights. "HELLO, I AM BEST MMORG" he said. I had no idea If only I'd known it was a dangerous smile ^__^
loot venda	Posted - 2008.08.19 05:58:00 - [82] Originally by: Malcanis It's not illegal to run a hauler full of officer mods AFK through lo-sec either, but it's still stupid and you'll still lose 40 bill. Relevance? The issue at hand is stealing someone else's validly accumulated rent. Possibly you are suggesting that everyone who takes some loot from the next lolfit-dreadnought should get banned?
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.08.19 06:11:00 - [83] Originally by: Seeing EyeDog bitter daisho alt in the op?? i think so WHAT?! Did you check my CORPORATION?! We are legimate hi-sec griefers and bulliers. We have NO connections to those crappy 0.0 "merc" corporations. They aren't worth of our PRIDE or TIME! They are scumbags to us. I merely wanted to attack against CCP, not to whine about "my main corp" getting safted by ISK buying and getting caught
Thommy	Posted - 2008.08.19 06:48:00 - [84] So for the people saying an innocent would not be banned / warned. What could you do against someone who hates you enough to use his or her reallife wealth to destroy your ingame character? He would buy isk and let the isk seller put it directly on the account / char he wishes to ruin. Good luck explaining that because ccp knows its an isk seller and you have no proof if it is indeed this person who did it (even if your feelings may very well confirm it to be this person). Even worse if you play infrequently by the time you notice this it may very well allready be to late (remember this can happen to anyone). Who says isk sellers will not try this themselves when you killed some of their chars and they take notice about your name showing up one time to often? So you now have an charge against you and proof against you and you probably do not stand any chance defending against it. The only way this can be fixed is to put in an special trade for isk. Make BOTH parties agree on recieving direct ISK transfers, only then this kind of flaws in game design (attempt to destroy someone's character / years of building up his or her character and dedication to eve and ccp) can be prevented. Atleast now if you accept the isk without knowing the source of it from an total stranger you yourselve should have watched more carefully and can be blaimed for ignorance. It is not fair to an paying customer who is not aware of anything and has put years of dedication to eve only to see it destroyed because someone thought it was 'fun' or he/she really wanted to destroy the character because of whatever reason. CCP please remove this game destroying meta-griefplay exploit before it hurts (more) people who truely are innocent and who obviously will loose any convidence in CCP and their staff because of this aswell as starting to believe CCP does not even care for their customers who get hit with anything bad out of their powers. This is not to protect people against stupidity but to prevent a mayor leak, see it as if someone outside of ccp has an backdoor to your database and can delete or destroy anything he or she wishes. Not trying to be offensive if anything in this message has been but i feel this is something that really is an very serieus issue and should not be taken to lightly.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.19 06:54:00 - [85] CCP don't ban people. They remove the RMT ISK. This only causes a problem if you have spent the RMT ISK and your wallet ends up -. If you contact the GM staff and get the RMT ISK removed without spending it there is no problem surely? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.19 07:04:00 - [86] Originally by: Thommy So for the people saying an innocent would not be banned / warned. What could you do against someone who hates you enough to use his or her reallife wealth to destroy your ingame character? Then your EvE character should be the least of your worries. Seriously, has this ever happened in EvE? has anyone even claimed it happened to them? What if someone used their power and wealth to give your dog rabies and it bit you? What if they obtained a sample of your DNA and grew a clone of you and spent 20 years training it into an unstoppable assassin!
Gonada Gallente R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.19 07:15:00 - [87] lol the guy gets caught and banned and ohh so many people go out of thier way to try to change what really happened. 1. guy gets caught 2. guy gets banned. 3. nuff said
Misanth The Forsakened Companions Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.19 07:23:00 - [88] I'm going to quote a post here as I think it puts things in a pretty good perspective in relation to the original post, and it should answer a few of the questions. Originally by: Lazuran There is no "dirty ISK", all ISK is the same and has no label. Players cannot check where ISK comes from, all they can do is avoid EULA violations themselves and the player mentioned did that. No ISK bought with any of his characters, no basis for CCP to take it away. You can also not check whether someone else engages in illegal activities, so you cannot make sure that your "renters" are not ISK sellers (not the same as "ISK farmers" again for you). You can rant in your usual fanboiish way all day long, it does not change a thing if the story as told here is true. ... Proof? Yes, proof is required, otherwise we're just arguing over accusations and that is a waste of time and proof in itself that CCP is just acting unfairly based on assumptions. ... Half of Morsus Mihi is "ISK farmers" in the sense that they farm ISK all day long in their carebear region. They may choose to sell that ISK or keep it. So a distinction between these 2 terms has to be made. Do you understand it now? ... ISK isn't an illegal good by any means. Acquiring ISK in some ways is in violation of the EULA. More specifically, buying it is an EULA violation, stealing it from an account you don't own is an EULA violation. Receiving it from someone with dubious background due to some ingame agreement isn't an EULA violation. ... Vague suspicions are not a proper basis for harsh punishment and also not something I'll argue with you over. You keep your vague suspicions and accusations and I'll keep demanding proof for EULA violations on behalf of the banned player. ... I blame them for gratituous punishment based on vague assmptions and I blame you for chiming in to that tune because you simply sympathize with them due to lack of principles. ..all above is perfectly sensible in real life. And it's also perfectly sensible if you believe the EULA is a "contract", a legal document of sorts that gives you any rights. However, this is something many players fail to understand, especially americans as the laws in the U.S. is very protective of someones "property".. in games, everything that happens is the intellectual property of the game owners, in this case CCP. That means they can do anything they want. They can permaban your account by the sole opinion that they don't like you. You can't sue them and they don't really need a reason for it. However, for obvious reasons they won't do that, it'll be bad publicity and affect their income. But it's important to understand that you have no rights whatsoever when playing this (or any) game. Add in that there's really no international law affecting it, rather just the legal jurisdiction in the country where the game is based and merely related to if the company is stealing from you or not (abusing your credit card for example). I know this quite well, I used to be GM in a game. We had issues where players were violating the EULA and at first we took the approach of throughly investigating the issues. But in most cases the players would blame "my younger brother/sister did it when I was at the bathroom" and such issues. Obviously we cannot prove who were at the keyboard, and in several cases there was multiple family members who used the same IP etc, so in theory it could very well be that we would have to ban multiple accounts.. ..and at the end of the day that was what we had to do. It escalated, and we couldn't have players abusing the situation that we couldn't prove things, so we simply suspended, warned and banned players based on suspicion, no proof. Is it fair? Is it good? No. But there's way too many loopholes if we'd allow players to try to force us to prove something we cannot. I have no opinion on this matter, just thought I'd drop it here that we as players have no "rights". It doesn't exist.


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