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should a hi-sec bs rat be worth more than a 0.0 bs rat?

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Chaos Incarnate Has No Face	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:07:00 - [31] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 18/08/2008 19:07:07 Originally by: Ruze I wonder why everyone keeps comparing mission rats to belt rats? Nulsec has missions, too. And hisec has belts. Seems like it would be more 'honest' to compare mission rats to mission rats, and belt rats to belt rats. Maybe that's just my way of looking at it There aren't missions everywhere in nullsec. In fact, there's very few places that do, and they're generally pretty crappy areas compared to the 'empty' nullsec areas without missions. Fact is, most people have to hunt in belts to get money in nullsec, and most people do missions in highsec. The problem is that nullsec rewards are only slightly above highsec ones, which pretty much means that there's not a lot of incentive to move out, given the ship loss risks increase dramatically even when you're in a huge alliance NAPfest
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:07:00 - [32] Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 18/08/2008 19:03:36 Stupid topic tbqh... 0.0 is for PVP... not carebearing. Why people constantly argue this is beyond me. If you want to carebear then go f'in carebear. If you want to PVP, go to 0.0 or lowsec. About tired of the 0.0 carebears whining that they can't carebear efficiently enough. There ARE places to carebear for stupid ammts of isk in 0.0... just not in belts... get yourself a prober and do plexes ffs. Um ... I mean ... Wait ... Are we even playing the same game? Cause, seems to me like ALL of EvE is for carebear and pirate. Last I checked, they had rats and missions in nulsec, and they had wardecs and griefing in hisec. I think the stupidity, to be honest, is with those who can't recognize that both PvP and PvE are necessary and part of EVERY aspect in this game. Trying to divide hisec and losec, or empire and nulsec, between carebear-land and battlefields is just wrong. Theres a game that does this better. It's called WoW. You might be happier there.
Hori To Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:08:00 - [33] all balance issues aside, is it wrong to let FW players be able to recoup losses in a relative short time and rejoin the fray? I don't think it is. And those missions you talk about feel like "jackpot" missions, there are lots of crap ones too.
Strak Yogorn Amarr Farmer Killers	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:09:00 - [34] Edited by: Strak Yogorn on 18/08/2008 19:11:19 Originally by: Ruze I wonder why everyone keeps comparing mission rats to belt rats? Nulsec has missions, too. And hisec has belts. Seems like it would be more 'honest' to compare mission rats to mission rats, and belt rats to belt rats. Maybe that's just my way of looking at it because, then their failposts wouldnt look as convincing. another point, if you nerf l4's AGAIN, you nerf alot of players way of financing pvp, which will only hurt the game even more, and maybe get more ppl to buy isk.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: Ruze I wonder why everyone keeps comparing mission rats to belt rats? Nulsec has missions, too. And hisec has belts. Seems like it would be more 'honest' to compare mission rats to mission rats, and belt rats to belt rats. Maybe that's just my way of looking at it There aren't missions everywhere in nullsec. In fact, there's very few places that do, and they're generally pretty crappy areas compared to the 'empty' nullsec areas without missions. Most people have to hunt in belts to get money in nullsec, and most people do missions in highsec. The problem is that nullsec rewards are only slightly above highsec ones, which pretty much means that there's not a lot of incentive to move out, given the ship loss risks increase dramatically even when you're in a huge alliance NAPfest Seems to me that out of pure numbers, ratting in nulsec versus ratting in hisec provides WAY more isk. Same goes for missions, too. Also, isn't the fact that the good rats, or the good moons, or the agents, are hard to come by a PART of the risk of nulsec? I mean, seems like in hisec you can rely in steady rewards and a good paycheck, while in nulsec it's like pan mining. Sometimes you hit the motherlode, sometimes you can't make enough to keep your claim afloat. Though I think we both can agree that losec is broken and needs a considerable boost.
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:12:00 - [36] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 18/08/2008 19:14:36 Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 18/08/2008 19:03:36 Stupid topic tbqh... 0.0 is for PVP... not carebearing. Why people constantly argue this is beyond me. If you want to carebear then go f'in carebear. If you want to PVP, go to 0.0 or lowsec. About tired of the 0.0 carebears whining that they can't carebear efficiently enough. There ARE places to carebear for stupid ammts of isk in 0.0... just not in belts... get yourself a prober and do plexes ffs. Um ... I mean ... Wait ... Are we even playing the same game? Cause, seems to me like ALL of EvE is for carebear and pirate. Last I checked, they had rats and missions in nulsec, and they had wardecs and griefing in hisec. I think the stupidity, to be honest, is with those who can't recognize that both PvP and PvE are necessary and part of EVERY aspect in this game. Trying to divide hisec and losec, or empire and nulsec, between carebear-land and battlefields is just wrong. Theres a game that does this better. It's called WoW. You might be happier there. LOL Seriously... learn to play the game. I didn't say you couldn't PVP in highsec... pay attention to my corp and alliance ticker bud (hint: Merc corp... PVP anywhere the contracts take us). I'm saying that 0.0 residents complaining about not being able to carebear well enough are doing it wrong.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:15:00 - [37] My corp and alliance ticker mean a lot, too, damnit! But what does yours mean?
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:17:00 - [38] Originally by: Ruze My corp and alliance ticker mean a lot, too, damnit! But what does yours mean? Mercenary Corp/Alliance I PVP everywhere. Lowsec... highsec... 0.0... wherever the contract terms specify. I also carebear wherever I happen to feel like it. And there is LOADS more isk available in 0.0 than in even the very best lvl 4 qual 20 agents in highsec. Even counting LP rewards highsec mission running can't touch 0.0 isk making if you know what you're doing. People who complain about highsec making more or equal isk to 0.0 are, simply put, doing it wrong.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:17:00 - [39] As far as I can tell, rats in missions seem to have about half the isk reward of a comparably tough rat in 0.0. So you might very well have a 1.1 rat in your lv 4 mission but it's probably tougher than a 1.8 in 0.0. The isk values really don't tell the whole story though, you spend quite a bit of time ratting just moving around not shooting anything. In missions you have a constant stream of stuff to shoot. I first started with missions but decided pretty quickly that it sucked. So I moved out to 0.0... and promptly found that ratting sucked worse. I still live in 0.0 for pvp but do I rat for cash? Heck no, screw that; a low skillpoint high-sec alt of mine now makes more isk in less time than I ever could ratting.
Aaron Mirrorsaver Warped Mining	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:21:00 - [40] i didnt read all you wrote but i gather you would be saying that hi sec is just as good or better for isk making and risk free as well than 0.0 with that in mind, if ccp want to encourage more people to move to 0.0 then they should either lower the isk making capability of living in hi sec or drastically increase the 0.0 spawns and bounties. in the low security systems. if all you can get is drabs in empire and cant afford much it'll cause people to want to seek those riches in 0.0 hopefully... lol
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:22:00 - [41] Lots of factors come into play with nulsec ratting. The two biggest ones are true sec and the number of people in the system (enemies and allies). Still, the profit in nulsec is where it should be. High for the lucky/skilled/determined, low for the unlucky/unskilled/lazy.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Xavier Zedicus The problem lie not with the acceptability of isk in high sec, because people should be able to stay in high sec. but that access to low and 0.0 is extremely difficult to get to without being lucky enough to find a 0.0 corp with good 0.0 that doesn't require insane sp req or that doesn't make you its 100% slave. This, tbh.
Chaos Incarnate Has No Face	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Ruze Seems to me that out of pure numbers, ratting in nulsec versus ratting in hisec provides WAY more isk. Same goes for missions, too. It provides a bit more, I think, but not heavily so. While I think the bounties decently favor nullsec (and they do), the LP rewards, ease of salvaging/looting, and mission bonuses cut into it pretty deeply. Nullsec missions were mainly anti-CONCORD missions in the few I ran, and you had to pick up tags from what you were shooting and sell them in local stations in order to get bounty - and that's generally a pain too. Quote: Also, isn't the fact that the good rats, or the good moons, or the agents, are hard to come by a PART of the risk of nulsec? I mean, seems like in hisec you can rely in steady rewards and a good paycheck, while in nulsec it's like pan mining. Sometimes you hit the motherlode, sometimes you can't make enough to keep your claim afloat. Yeah, but you're already taking a risk by being in a free pvp area, and now you're taking a further risk that the NPCing could be pretty much average compared to anything you'd typically be able to get access to in highsec? I've NPC'd in 0.0 and had one faction spawn (from an anomaly) and one officer spawn. This generally resulted in me getting a bit of faction ammo and some barely worthwhile mod. Not really enough to make up for the safety loss. Quote: Though I think we both can agree that losec is broken and needs a considerable boost. Yeah. Lowsec is pretty much all risk, no reward, which is why it pretty much seems to operate as a no man's land between 0.0 and highsec
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:26:00 - [44] Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver i didnt read all you wrote but i gather you would be saying that hi sec is just as good or better for isk making and risk free as well than 0.0 with that in mind, if ccp want to encourage more people to move to 0.0 then they should either lower the isk making capability of living in hi sec or drastically increase the 0.0 spawns and bounties. in the low security systems. if all you can get is drabs in empire and cant afford much it'll cause people to want to seek those riches in 0.0 hopefully... lol Have but one thing to say: Go to 0.0 NPC areas Run Missions or Go anywhere in 0.0 and run exploration plexes.... or Go mine high end ores in 0.0.... or Go Moon mining on mid-high end moons in 0.0.... or Go to 0.0 and do production/trade... Then complain if you still feel this way. Comparing RATTING in 0.0 to running missions in highsec is silly. You're talking apples and oranges here. Not only is ratting in 0.0 not the best measure, it is easily the worst income source in 0.0 (and is still more income than level 4 missions in high sec).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Venkul Mul This for starter: where you get 9K LP for a high sec level missions? They cap at 5-6K with the best connection skills. 9k is a low sec LP reward. No, it goes quite a bit higher than that. I just got offered 7116 LP for a standard 6-hour drone mission (again, Q18 agent in a 0.5-sec system, lvl III in all the relevant social skills). Then I have done something wrong working for Gallente agents. Uninteresting LP rewards and low LP. Oh well, caldari are terminally boring the same.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:31:00 - [46] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Xavier Zedicus The problem lie not with the acceptability of isk in high sec, because people should be able to stay in high sec. but that access to low and 0.0 is extremely difficult to get to without being lucky enough to find a 0.0 corp with good 0.0 that doesn't require insane sp req or that doesn't make you its 100% slave. This, tbh. But a lot of the problems with 'access' is in peoples heads, ain't it? Couldn't your corp move out to 0.0 and defend itself? What's so hard with making a friend or two in 0.0 alliances? It's as much the mentality of the player, to be honest. Players KNOW Jita is bad on lag and yet every day they go there, do missions, and even log out. Then they yell at the devs. It makes as much sense as yelling at God because your obese or an alcoholic. Unless you were held down and force-fed or had whiskey poured down your throat, isn't it your choice? So you it's too hard to get into losec or 0.0? Well, missions in losec pay equivilent to those in hisec, and ratting is just a little better. Why can't you go there again? Pirates, you say? Have you considered the thought of hiring those same pirates to protect you? This ain't aimed at J'mkarr at all. For all I know, it's exactly what his corp has done. But it seems like many of the options are there, it's just that players won't buck up and do it themselves. I'm just arguing that more bonuses should be applied, specifically to losec, in order to give players more INCENTIVE to buck up and do it themselves. It still requires work to be done, though. Doesn't happen on it's own.
Chaos Incarnate Has No Face	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:36:00 - [47] Originally by: Xavier Zedicus The problem lie not with the acceptability of isk in high sec, because people should be able to stay in high sec. but that access to low and 0.0 is extremely difficult to get to without being lucky enough to find a 0.0 corp with good 0.0 that doesn't require insane sp req or that doesn't make you its 100% slave. Generally because holding and securing the best 0.0 is going to occasionally require PvP on your part. People expecting their alliance to give them something-for-nothing are generally crappy alliance members.
Arakidias Murky Inc. Power Of 3	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:11:00 - [48] OP clearly hasn't experienced the joy of several triple Usurper spawns chained in one system..
Doddy Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:31:00 - [49] Edited by: Doddy on 18/08/2008 20:32:58 While i am first to jump on the "nerf hi sec" band wagon, your arguments are terribly flawed. Rats in missions/complexes give less bounty than exactly the same rat met in a belt, they also drop less loot. Compare "centum beast lord" - 787k bounty with "sanshas beastlord" - 1.2 mil bounty. Exact same bs, but tweaked by ccp to take into account that killing this bs will have mission reward/plex loot that 1 step closer. Your later calculations do not take the extra loot (which can be a hell of a lot) into account either. Nor the fact you can "chain" spawns in belts. Hi sec level 4 missions were broken way before the introduction of these missions or marauders, neither of them have particularly changed things, esp when u consider how farmable things like the old drone missions were.
Higgs Foton Scoopex Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:34:00 - [50] This morning i made 65 mill isk with ratting a chained 6 belt system (true sec around -0.45). Triple throne spawn, triple malakim spawn, double saint spawn. Al in about 3 hours. And that is bounty only. A good lvl4 mission (Blockade, Extravaganza, Worlds collide) takes me about 2 hours to finish, and nets about 30 million, and that is INCLUDING loot and salvage. All with my crappy skills. So ratting in 0.0 is way more profitable. Probably because in 0.0 when chaining you can basically ignore the little stuff, while in missions you need to waste time shooting frigs and cruisers. Bounties in lvl4 missions are crap btw. Like said in this thread: belt rats in 0.0 have higher bounties. I see malakims in missions around 900.000 isk, while they are 1.4 million in 0.0.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Lady Valory OK, After spending several weeks thinking about the current crisis of infinite, low-risk isk in level four hi-sec missions, vs ratting in 0.0, I came up with a new argument, a new line of reasoning . . . Should a battleship rat in high sec ever be worth more than a battleship rat in 0.0? Under what conditions and why? First, some facts... In the last mission patch, the devs. introduced several level four missions with what I now call "broken" rats... The old level four "going beserk" was replaced with the new "EOM going beserk". The new going beserk has rats over the 1100000 mark. The new mission "recon" introduced hi-sec to lots of pithi-usurper rats who have a bounty over 1100000 ... Many of the hi-sec new angel missions added lots of angel seraphim in high sec with very high isk bounties. Coupled with the rise of mauraders these new rats are a prime reason that level 4 hi-sec missions are broken. Next, lets look at most of 0.0. Most of 0.0 usually gives poor or mediocre spawns with 500 000 isk bs rats up to 1100000 rats. This de facto places zero risk in high sec level 4 missions on par with most of 0.0. Next, if you take the LP and factor that as isk, then devide the isk and bonus's to average out the bs rat bounty, then level four bs rats are at least equal but usually MORE than ratting in the best of 0.0. For example, lets generously take a 9000LP high sec mission and give those LP a price of just 6mil isk. That same mission will have a reward and bounty of 4 mil isk with good skills. This is 10 mil isk. Now if you take a mission with 10 bs at 1million isk each and then add the million isk bounty to the regular bounty, you get 10 bs worth 2million isk each--a number greater than the triple 1850000 bs. Thus the best of high sec mission rats and mission space becomes equal to the best ratting grounds in 0.0. Again if you tweak my numbers down, then the high sec bs are still worth about 1500000 isk each in bounty after you factor in the LP and the mission rewards. On top of that, in hi-sec you can easily salvage missions with a maurader or a cargo-fit destroyer. Then you can reprocess the loot without paying an outpost tax... So then I ask for debate, "When and where and why should a high-sec battleship rat be worth more isk than than a 0.0 battleship rat?" Empire pirate revenge thread. No bias here at all. .
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Lady Valory stuff Empire pirate revenge thread. No bias here at all. . Empire over-defensive carebear reply. No bias there at all, either. (Not that I disagree, just sayin'.)
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:41:00 - [53] Perhaps it's time to remove bounty on rats in 0.0 and remove 'loot' modules from rats in high sec. The idea is you get one or the other not both. Except in low sec where you get both in moderation. The logic behind it being, in 0.0 Concord really has no way of verifying a kill as ship logs are easily falsified and in high sec the pirates that operate there do so in straight fits, no pirates modules as these would draw the attention of the law to them before they can spring into action. In low sec Concord monitor everything still but haven't got the manpower to intervene against transgressions, hence the availability of both bounty and loot.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:42:00 - [54] What exactly do you want high sec people to do? Beat ourselves with twigs while marvelling from afar at how wonderful and shiny 0.0 is?
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Lady Valory stuff Empire pirate revenge thread. No bias here at all. . Empire over-defensive carebear reply. No bias there at all, either. (Not that I disagree, just sayin'.) Nope. I just cut through all the BS to get straight to the point. Sorry if that bothers you. .
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:45:00 - [56] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Lady Valory stuff Empire pirate revenge thread. No bias here at all. . Empire over-defensive carebear reply. No bias there at all, either. (Not that I disagree, just sayin'.) Nope. I just cut through all the BS to get straight to the point. Sorry if that bothers you. . No bother. I'm allergic to BS as well. It's a bad affliction. And when I caught sight of your attempt to disarm an argument by making a brash generalization, I sneezed a little. Figured I'd warn the others Hope you don't mind, but I think I got a little snot on you. Here's a paper towel. Sorry.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Lady Valory stuff Empire pirate revenge thread. No bias here at all. . Empire over-defensive carebear reply. No bias there at all, either. (Not that I disagree, just sayin'.) Nope. I just cut through all the BS to get straight to the point. Sorry if that bothers you. . No bother. I'm allergic to BS as well. It's a bad affliction. And when I caught sight of your attempt to disarm an argument by making a brash generalization, I sneezed a little. Figured I'd warn the others Hope you don't mind, but I think I got a little snot on you. Here's a paper towel. Sorry. It would appear your goat has wandered into my yard. .
Trinara D'Rhenin	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:49:00 - [58] It balances out, I think. 0.0 ratting is far more convenient and far faster, in my experience, in farming bounties. Looting/salvaging is much more of a pain in the ass, of course, unless you have a marauder. But even if you aren't chaining, the convenience, flexibility and sheer money available by 0.0 belt ratting exceeds what you can get in level 4 missions, I think. However, 0.0 is much less secure. How much less depends on your alliance, your situation and so forth. But even in a safe situation it's de facto less secure than high sec space is. In order to really pump the ISK out of a mission (ie, getting to kill the nicer bounty ships, and completing mission requirements as well), you often have to kill all the ships (as we know many of them require this to progress pockets), including a bunch of low bounty trash ships that warp scramble, for example -- this sucks up more time than typical 0.0 belt ratting, and is far less flexible overall. But, you generally still see lower bounties on ship kills than in belt ratting because you are getting mission reward ISK, timing bonus ISK, and LPs. So overall I think it's rough justice. ISK/hour is probably better in 0.0 ratting, and it's also more flexible. Level 4s are much safer, and more of a steady income, if less flexible and more time consuming (especially the marquee missions).
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:19:00 - [59] Dear CCP Please boost the income of High Sec Level 4 mission runners. The tears, grief and whiny outrage of the morons that whine about it will be like sweet sweet nectar. And then, when their whines have reached a fevered pitch of hysteria and stupidity, boost the income of High Sec Level 4 mission runners AGAIN.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:22:00 - [60] Originally by: Amateratsu Whine for a boost to low sec and 0.0 then rather than crying for a nerf to hi sec. Why? Nerfing high-sec is easier, and it is the CCP way.

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