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should a hi-sec bs rat be worth more than a 0.0 bs rat?

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Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:29:00 - [1] OK, After spending several weeks thinking about the current crisis of infinite, low-risk isk in level four hi-sec missions, vs ratting in 0.0, I came up with a new argument, a new line of reasoning . . . Should a battleship rat in high sec ever be worth more than a battleship rat in 0.0? Under what conditions and why? First, some facts... In the last mission patch, the devs. introduced several level four missions with what I now call "broken" rats... The old level four "going beserk" was replaced with the new "EOM going beserk". The new going beserk has rats over the 1100000 mark. The new mission "recon" introduced hi-sec to lots of pithi-usurper rats who have a bounty over 1100000 ... Many of the hi-sec new angel missions added lots of angel seraphim in high sec with very high isk bounties. Coupled with the rise of mauraders these new rats are a prime reason that level 4 hi-sec missions are broken. Next, lets look at most of 0.0. Most of 0.0 usually gives poor or mediocre spawns with 500 000 isk bs rats up to 1100000 rats. This de facto places zero risk in high sec level 4 missions on par with most of 0.0. Next, if you take the LP and factor that as isk, then devide the isk and bonus's to average out the bs rat bounty, then level four bs rats are at least equal but usually MORE than ratting in the best of 0.0. For example, lets generously take a 9000LP high sec mission and give those LP a price of just 6mil isk. That same mission will have a reward and bounty of 4 mil isk with good skills. This is 10 mil isk. Now if you take a mission with 10 bs at 1million isk each and then add the million isk bounty to the regular bounty, you get 10 bs worth 2million isk each--a number greater than the triple 1850000 bs. Thus the best of high sec mission rats and mission space becomes equal to the best ratting grounds in 0.0. Again if you tweak my numbers down, then the high sec bs are still worth about 1500000 isk each in bounty after you factor in the LP and the mission rewards. On top of that, in hi-sec you can easily salvage missions with a maurader or a cargo-fit destroyer. Then you can reprocess the loot without paying an outpost tax... So then I ask for debate, "When and where and why should a high-sec battleship rat be worth more isk than than a 0.0 battleship rat?"
Zhenga	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:32:00 - [2] Edited by: Zhenga on 18/08/2008 17:35:50 1st in a fail post. Edit: For real though I can see where you are coming from. The thing is, most mission rats are not as much as you are saying they do. Yes there are mission with high bounty rats, but not like in 00. In 0.0 you only have to go belt to belt and find lots of nice BS rats. Missions you get all kinds of crap spawns in the mission slowing you down and needing to travel between gates ect, ect. Ratting in 0.0 will net you more isk/ hour (if that is what you want to judge).
Xavier Zedicus Priory of Zorrabed	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:35:00 - [3] The problem lie not with the acceptability of isk in high sec, because people should be able to stay in high sec. but that access to low and 0.0 is extremely difficult to get to without being lucky enough to find a 0.0 corp with good 0.0 that doesn't require insane sp req or that doesn't make you its 100% slave.
Amateratsu Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:36:00 - [4] FFS give the whining over level 4 missions a rest for 5 fricking minutes. The Subject has been agued to death in 2736453 other threads á
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:39:00 - [5] Can I pencil the three above posters in as, "Yes, high sec bs rats should give more isk in bounty than 0.0 rats?" I just wanted to be clear as to your opinion.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:39:00 - [6] Low sec is extremely easy to get into and NPC 0.0 is always very easy to get into. Good post, I think only a rare few rats in missions should have bounties anywhere near 1M isk. It is a beaten to death topic but we have to keep on bringing it up until implementation, CCP doesn't respond to every issue and the CSM is useless... -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Amateratsu Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Lady Valory Can I pencil the three above posters in as, "Yes, high sec bs rats should give more isk in bounty than 0.0 rats?" I just wanted to be clear as to your opinion. Whine for a boost to low sec and 0.0 then rather than crying for a nerf to hi sec. á
Xavier Zedicus Priory of Zorrabed	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:47:00 - [8] no, i do not think they should be better or even equal. I believe there should be a better gradient.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:48:00 - [9] Damn, I need to start running missions again! And I agree, 0.0 should offer much higher rewards than it currently does compared to high-sec. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:48:00 - [10] First, nulsec rewards differ greatly from system to system. I'm not going to pretend to know the average, but part of the 'risk' involved with living in nulsec is actually being able to live in a system with either a profitable moon or good belt rats. * I intentionally don't put 'mining' in that statement, because mineral 'quality' and availability is completely borked.* So, that's one mark. The second mark is stating that 'mission spawns' can't very well be compared to 'belt spawns'. They are different. Nulsec mission spawns and rewards seem to be way more profitable than hisec or losec. And I know from personal experience that hisec belt rats and nulsec belt rats don't even compare, even in poor nulsec systems. Finally, CCP should really look into EXPANDING the number of hisec systems to accomodate the larger server load and the predicted influx of players through september months and the future release of ambulation, etc. They've already talking of reworking the wardec and suicide systems. Now they really need to concern themselves with making the core of this galaxy feel like a dense core. More systems, agents spread out, and 'highways' put in between trade systems. That being said, I also think they should remove missions from .9 and 1.0 systems, or even the possibility to do missions here. These are the highest security systems, so maybe it's time game mechanics reflected that. Even wars are prevented in these systems (which would obviously become trade hubs). No aggressive activities, because rats don't exist, and pirates can't infiltrate. Just my two-cent opinions. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Xavier Zedicus The problem lie not with the acceptability of isk in high sec, because people should be able to stay in high sec. but that access to low and 0.0 is extremely difficult to get to without being lucky enough to find a 0.0 corp with good 0.0 that doesn't require insane sp req or that doesn't make you its 100% slave. There are plenty of corps renting 0.0 access and allow you to join/leave at will with no mandatory ops or anything. Just come over and farm at will. Obviously they get the crappiest space in 0.0 but that's still better than lvl 4 missions. --- "There is no lag in Jita, NEVER!" - Iraqi Information Minister
Amateratsu Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Ruze Finally, CCP should really look into EXPANDING the number of hisec systems to accomodate the larger server load and the predicted influx of players through september months and the future release of ambulation, etc. They've already talking of reworking the wardec and suicide systems. Now they really need to concern themselves with making the core of this galaxy feel like a dense core. More systems, agents spread out, and 'highways' put in between trade systems. Expanding the core systems would be a big undertaking, even if you added new regions, you would be adding significantly to the core density of the empire map. You'd also need to increase the size of the server to acommodate all the new systems, so not likely to happen anytime soon. Tho eventually as the eve playerbase continues to grow, the eve universe and the size of the server will have to grow with it... á
Zeerover Caldari DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Lady Valory For example, lets generously take a 9000LP high sec mission and give those LP a price of just 6mil isk. That same mission will have a reward and bounty of 4 mil isk with good skills. This is 10 mil isk. Plenty of misunderstandings in your post, but this is the worst one:) 9000lp in high-sec is fairly impossible. The best mission rats do at times break the 1 mill isk barrier. The best null-sec rat's are worth several times that. Now as I argued in another thread. "If you kill off high-sec lvl4's you kill of your own market for complex/officer items." Large amounts of the ISK generated in high-sec lvl 4 missions is transfered back out to null-sec because that's where the items are that the mission runners pay in the billions for. Furthermore adding more content to low-sec is the way to deal with this. Just putting the most profitable missions in low-sec isn't going to change much. Remember lvl 5 missions are already solely in low-sec and offer between 45000 to 60000lp PER mission. Yet few people are out there fighting. So think new content instead of nerfing old content.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:10:00 - [14] The OP is trying to make a false dichotomy. Semi-epic Fail. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Amateratsu FFS give the whining over level 4 missions a rest for 5 fricking minutes. The Subject has been agued to death in 2736453 other threads Only another 34,194 more required to get results! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Chaos Incarnate Has No Face	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Zeerover Plenty of misunderstandings in your post, but this is the worst one:) 9000lp in high-sec is fairly impossible. The best mission rats do at times break the 1 mill isk barrier. The best null-sec rat's are worth several times that. The best null-sec rats are very very rare. You'll probably see rats around 1.3-1.8m at the most, if you farm them right - and that doesn't really make up for the added risk, lack of LP, and general pain looting and salvaging usually turns out to be Quote: "Rabble Rabble Rabble!" "Just sitting out here saying "Rabble Rabble" isn't going to fix anything!" "But we don't know what else to do!" "Rabble Rabble Rabble!"
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:18:00 - [17] Question for the op: 9000LP? What quality of agent, and what exact security status is the system that agent is located? Also, on average, how many missions send you into low-sec to complete? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Amateratsu Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Amateratsu FFS give the whining over level 4 missions a rest for 5 fricking minutes. The Subject has been agued to death in 2736453 other threads Only another 34,194 more required to get results! You've got your results, the csm are looking into the hi sec missions situation. sit back, chill out, relax and enjoy the game. I agree that high sec missions need looking at, they are boring, repetative and all that, but lets wait and see what the devs think. á
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:23:00 - [19] If you are doing ratting in 0.0 you will come across named rats every now and then and they are worth a LOT more than any high-sec mission battleship. And there are no hidden complex with battleship spawns in high-sec and no lvl 5 missions. It isn¦t lack of rewards in 0.0 that keeps people in high-sec it is the risk. And from risk-reward point of view it is the low-sec that needs to be get buffed not player controled 0.0 sec. ----------------------------------------------------------
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:24:00 - [20] I wonder why everyone keeps comparing mission rats to belt rats? Nulsec has missions, too. And hisec has belts. Seems like it would be more 'honest' to compare mission rats to mission rats, and belt rats to belt rats. Maybe that's just my way of looking at it Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:26:00 - [21] Meh. I've ratted in some pretty crap areas of EVE (Providence, Curse, Venal, Catch, Great Wildlands). With the exception of Providence I've always made more ISK/hour (if I've been able to remain undisturbed) ratting than I've ever done running L4 missions. And that's when I've been using a HAC or BC to rat instead of a battleship. I can imagine how much the people in Ravens are making out there. The key thing is that the equivalent mission rats yield perhaps 2/3rds the bounty of a Rat battleship. As it should be. 500k battleships out in nullsec melt like butter compared to 500k battleships found in missions, thus unless you suck at ratting you make up for the lack of quality by finding it in quantity. As long as you remain undisturbed that is. But that's a matter of how your alliance operates and how good it is. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Winterblink Question for the op: 9000LP? What quality of agent, and what exact security status is the system that agent is located? It may be a bit exaggerated, unless you also have perfect social skills, but the "high-profile" missions (WC, the Extravaganzas) can quite easily yield 8k LP from a Q18 agent in a 0.5 system, even with mediochre skills. On the other hand, he figures less than 700 ISK/LP, which is quite a lot lower than you get if you keep an eye on the market. I'd say it evens out.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:36:00 - [23] I want to see CCP add even more value to Lv 4 missions, just to screw over the pathetic whiners who complain about Lv 4 missions.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:49:00 - [24] It wouldn't hurt if there were more, better belt rats around but it is generally fine. You can make quite a lot of money chaining even 500k belt rats in a backend system with 10+ belts. Because people are attracted to high bounties, you won't have much company and that means an endless supply of practically risk-free 500k bounty NPCs. That's a lot better than the average level 4 filled with BCs, HACs that take forever to kill and then maybe one or two 1 mil + bounty BS. Only the really good lvl 4s have lots of BS and they are usually packed with low bounty ships that must be killed as well (first pocket of Recon is the only exception that comes to mind).
cal nereus Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:53:00 - [25] If I had to choose, I would prefer to rat in 0.0 instead of run missions in high-sec. I run missions in high-sec because it's available to everyone, whereas 0.0 ratting is a much more exclusive club. I've done it before, when I was in 0.0, and it's so much more convenient than missions. I can jump into a belt, kill a couple rats, earn several mil, jump to the next belt, rinse and repeat, and stop whenever I feel like it. And there's always that small probability of encountering those super-awesome rats that are worth tons more than any other rat. You don't have those in missions.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:55:00 - [26] So let' ask you some question about your numbers. Originally by: Lady Valory For example, lets generously take a 9000LP high sec mission and give those LP a price of just 6mil isk. That same mission will have a reward and bounty of 4 mil isk with good skills. This is 10 mil isk. This for starter: where you get 9K LP for a high sec level missions? They cap at 5-6K with the best connection skills. 9k is a low sec LP reward. Quote: The old level four "going beserk" was replaced with the new "EOM going beserk". The new going beserk has rats over the 1100000 mark. You mean that in one of the variable spawn mission, where it is possible to get a faction spawn (with a 1/500 chance or something similar) you have got a very good spawn and are using that as a benchmark? How common is your "1.100.000 BS spawn"? Quote: Many of the hi-sec new angel missions added lots of angel seraphim in high sec with very high isk bounties I have found angel seraphim in several missions against angels, nothing new. They have 2/3 or less of the bounty of angel seraphims in 0.0 so no, they don't pay more than 0.0 for the same level of difficulty, they pay less. Quote: Coupled with the rise of mauraders these new rats are a prime reason that level 4 hi-sec missions are broken. I know people that hunt rats in 0.0 in marauders. The advantage is in the speed of salvaging and ammo consumption. Both are less important in high sec missions that in low sec/0.0. Quote: Now if you take a mission with 10 bs at 1million isk each Care to cite the name and put up screen shots of this mission with 10 BS worth 1 million each? Plus a list of all the ship in the mission. Let's see if it exist and what is the average reward of each ship. Quote: On top of that, in hi-sec you can easily salvage missions with a maurader or a cargo-fit destroyer. I salvage while ratting in 0.0 too, nothing is making it impossible. Quote: Then you can reprocess the loot without paying an outpost tax.. That is a question between you and the outpost owner, right?
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.18 18:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 18/08/2008 18:37:27 Originally by: Winterblink Question for the op: 9000LP? What quality of agent, and what exact security status is the system that agent is located? That part may be a bit exaggerated, unless you also have perfect social skills. However, the "high-profile" missions (WC, the Extravaganzas) can quite easily yield 8k LP from a Q18 agent in a 0.5 system, even with mediocre skills. On the other hand, he figures less than 700 ISK/LP, which is quite a lot lower than you get if you keep an eye on the market. I'd say it evens out. It's been my own personal experience that one can make more money ratting. Nicer loot, nicer salvage (more or less), bounties are good, and in a system with tons of belts you can kill all day long. I've messed with a few high sec agents, and the mediocre ones were netting me approx 4.5k LP for a 'good' mission. Rewards and bounties would probably sit somewhere around the 5 million mark, or thereabouts. I tend not to blitz missions myself, so the return (for me) is decidedly less than 0.0 ratting. Then again, so is the risk, so it works out overall. Again, depends a lot on skills, your style of missioning/ratting, the quality of agent and truesec of system, etc. Even then I wouldn't call them on par with each other.
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:00:00 - [28] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 18/08/2008 19:07:10 Stupid topic tbqh... 0.0 is for PVP... not carebearing. Why people constantly argue this is beyond me. If you want to carebear then go f'in carebear. If you want to PVP, go to 0.0 or lowsec. About tired of the 0.0 carebears whining that they can't carebear efficiently enough. There ARE places to carebear for stupid ammts of isk in 0.0... just not in belts... get yourself a prober and do plexes ffs. Even so... if you rat in belts (yes, even in crappy -0.3 security space) you will make as much or more than a mission runner doing level 4's. Not to mention the fact that you can rat in 0.0 in a T1 cruiser... can't do L4 missions in a T1 cruiser.
Traidor Disloyal NightCrew	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Lady Valory So then I ask for debate, "When and where and why should a high-sec battleship rat be worth more isk than than a 0.0 battleship rat?" Oh my god! A 0.0 carebear whinner. Aren't you suppose to be in Hi Sec? Or has the world gone crazy?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Venkul Mul This for starter: where you get 9K LP for a high sec level missions? They cap at 5-6K with the best connection skills. 9k is a low sec LP reward. No, it goes quite a bit higher than that. I just got offered 7116 LP for a standard 6-hour drone mission (again, Q18 agent in a 0.5-sec system, lvl III in all the relevant social skills).

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