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Falco Peregrenus	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:15:00 - [1] I've been thinking about switching to Caldari ships(I'm a Sebbie) but I know this will take a lot of time to do. I really like missiles(just a personal preference) but I don't know if they are particularly better than guns. Iam still noobish so I realize I don't know enough to know what questions to really ask. Any suggestions?
Buhhdust Princess You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:19:00 - [2] I started off as caldari, and now i'm gallente, keep training ur guns and torps and get yourself a well rounded active tanked Typhoon, then go **** ppl! (stick with matar)
Lenori Kallis	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:21:00 - [3] Wimsy is now the name of the game. Fly whatever strikes your fancy however you like; it doesn't matter anymore. Undoubtedly: IT will eventually be nerfed.
Mu Yaling Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:21:00 - [4] i have 2 "mains" one a 23m 10m sp in missiles specialised Caldari pilot. one a 10m Minmatar pilot. the minmatar is so much more fun its stupid.. in my opinion stick to minmatar and ignore all the doomsdayers.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:24:00 - [5] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:34 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:25 Caldari. edit: Minmatar has always sucked, they've just been saved by overused gimmicks or speed.
NightmareX MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:48:00 - [6] Edited by: NightmareX on 18/08/2008 19:48:15 Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:34 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:25 Caldari. edit: Minmatar has always sucked, they've just been saved by overused gimmicks or speed. Minmatar ships sucks terribly with terribly Minmatar players. But on the other hand, if you take a player like me, then Minmatar owns.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:49:00 - [7] ITT: Ego trip.
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:52:00 - [8] Edited by: Lili Lu on 18/08/2008 19:54:49 speed will be nerfed and one way or another, however it's done, it will affect minmatar quite strongly. the ship stats will frustrate you as well. resists and hps all messed up. It's a shame really. I love the rapier and huginn as they presently are, but those may get nerfed to oblivion with the proposed web nerf. I love the phoon, but it may become heavier than hyperions and ravens No downside to Caldari really. It would take successive nerfs to missiles, passive shield tanking (not on devs hit list although it should be), falcon nerf (again devs seem oblivious) to start affecting the sp you'd invested. You would still have left the Moa/Ferrox/Rokh's longest optimal plus resist bonuses, the Scorpion as the only ew BS, and the only electronic attack frig worth anything. Caldari is much better placed atm (as it has been for a long time).
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:27:00 - [9] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 18/08/2008 19:48:15 Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:34 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:25 Caldari. edit: Minmatar has always sucked, they've just been saved by overused gimmicks or speed. Minmatar ships sucks terribly with terribly Minmatar players. But on the other hand, if you take a player like me, then Minmatar owns. pwned
Falco Peregrenus	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:41:00 - [10] thanks!
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:02:00 - [11] Falco you have to understand one thing though... Matar ships are only good when being piloted by Stab Wounds and Nightmare.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Amandin Adouin Falco you have to understand one thing though... Matar ships are only good when being piloted by Stab Wounds and Nightmare. Well, no. I find that I'm able to wtfpwn most people that I run across. I normally feel bad when I look up their age and realize that I have more SP in gunnery alone than they have in total though. :-/ -Liang
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Amandin Adouin Falco you have to understand one thing though... Matar ships are only good when being piloted by Stab Wounds and Nightmare. Well, no. I find that I'm able to wtfpwn most people that I run across. I normally feel bad when I look up their age and realize that I have more SP in gunnery alone than they have in total though. :-/ -Liang Pff , and you have at least twice as many buddies with you than them ,right?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Naomi Knight Pff , and you have at least twice as many buddies with you than them ,right? Heh, sometimes. :P -Liang
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.18 23:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Buhhdust Princess I started off as caldari, and now i'm gallente traitor.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.19 01:04:00 - [16] Stick with Mataar unless you like being support/meatshield.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 01:08:00 - [17] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 01:14:47 Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Stick with Mataar unless you like being support/meatshield. and don't like flying battleships. Also, with the upcoming speed nerf, most* Minmatar ships are going to suck pretty bad. So, really: Stick to Minnie if you like the Rifter, Wolf, Jag, Broadsword, Rupture, or Hurricane. -Liang Ed: Whoops, for got the Ruppie!
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 01:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Stick with Mataar unless you like being support/meatshield. and don't like flying battleships. Also, with the upcoming speed nerf, most* Minmatar ships are going to suck pretty bad. So, really: Stick to Minnie if you like the Rifter, Wolf, Jag, Broadsword, or Hurricane. -Liang Don't forget the lil rup
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 01:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Boz Well Don't forget the lil rup Thanks, edited. :) -Liang
NightmareX MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.19 04:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 01:14:47 Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Stick with Mataar unless you like being support/meatshield. and don't like flying battleships. Also, with the upcoming speed nerf, most* Minmatar ships are going to suck pretty bad. So, really: Stick to Minnie if you like the Rifter, Wolf, Jag, Broadsword, Rupture, or Hurricane. -Liang Ed: Whoops, for got the Ruppie! Uhm, you forgot to tell that the Tempest will also be really nice with the speed and web nerf.
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.08.19 04:53:00 - [21] Caldari. 100%.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 05:07:00 - [22] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 05:08:04 Originally by: NightmareX Uhm, you forgot to tell that the Tempest will also be really nice with the speed and web nerf. But it's not. It's only better than the blaster mega (which doesn't have the tracking to actually hit battleships in web range). -Liang Ed: I will admit that the TD I fit could have something to do with exacerbating that problem.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 08:37:00 - [23] Go Minnie - damn the torpedoes and full steam ahead. Minmatar are more fun than Caldari unless you like to keep it simple. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Boz Well Don't forget the lil rup Thanks, edited. :) And the Typhoon. Dual remote rep plated Typhoon is tasty and should survive the changes fine. More than a few sp's required ofc and you might argue it is not worth it but it does mean there is a Minnie BS for RR gangs that holds its' own.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 08:48:00 - [24] Originally by: AstroPhobic edit: Minmatar has always sucked, they've just been saved by overused gimmicks or speed. Minmatar have been one of the best pvp races for as long as I've been playing - I joined at the end of 2006. I have only flown Minmatar and found them to have many useful ships in many roles. The only other race I would think about having flown instead is Gallente which I have been tempted to crosstrain many times. The upcoming nerf may reduce us to a somewhat pitiful state without major changes but lets not deny the past which has been fantastic for Minmatar pvpers. That is why we get so little sympathy from Caldari now - they have envied our pvp capability for along time.
Leinad tir	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:33:00 - [25] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 18/08/2008 19:48:15 Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:34 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:25 Caldari. edit: Minmatar has always sucked, they've just been saved by overused gimmicks or speed. Minmatar ships sucks terribly with terribly Minmatar players. But on the other hand, if you take a player like me, then Minmatar owns. This kind of ppl make me laught a lot
NightmareX MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:57:00 - [26] Edited by: NightmareX on 19/08/2008 12:01:39 Originally by: Leinad tir Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 18/08/2008 19:48:15 Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:34 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 19:24:25 Caldari. edit: Minmatar has always sucked, they've just been saved by overused gimmicks or speed. Minmatar ships sucks terribly with terribly Minmatar players. But on the other hand, if you take a player like me, then Minmatar owns. This kind of ppl make me laught a lot What do you mean by that?, do you mean that i'm wrong?. I don't think a newbie without a portrait and even without the corp showing on the forums doesn't know more than i do. 4 and a half year in EVE so far, so well i think i know what i'm talking about Now all of you who thinks Minmatar sucks, give me a proof that they sucks, or STFU. You have to prove it to me via frapses with lots of fights that Minmatar sucks. And don't come with the booohooo, Minmatar have poor DPS and that, because the DPS is not all in PVP today.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.19 12:25:00 - [27] Edited by: The Djego on 19/08/2008 12:30:02 Originally by: AstroPhobic edit: Minmatar has always sucked, they've just been saved by overused gimmicks or speed. Shouldn¦t u finished Amarr training till now and stoped complaining about Minmatar Ships? Btw, some people actualy fly Minmatar Ships without Nano and are able to avoid failing in them(EFT is overrated btw). To the OP, if you like flexibility, solo/small Gang PVP and speed stick with Minmatar. If you like EW, huge Range, Missles and Shieldtanking go Caldari. Missles have in general less Damage(ok Torps acutaly do more Damage than Turrets), but a better Range, also no Tracking issues like Turrets. Turrets are not bad in general, it simply takes more Skillpoints to make them usefull. Turrets are often prefered in PVP because of the higher Damage, Missles in PVE because of her ability to hit anything quite easy. Both work in PVP and PVE and have advantages and disadvantages.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 14:48:00 - [28] It's funny guys, explain to me what minmatar ships are all about since I just don't seem to get it. Less dps, less tank, decent tracking. Awful damage in falloff, bad sensor strength, bad lock range. Awful weapons with poor ammo. Nobody's stopping you from flying minmatar. Autocannons were never uberweapons. Artillery had their place until the HP nerf. Minmatar was placed ontop of a high seat with gimmicks and speed. They were never ubertanks, they were never uberdps. Now that your gimmicks and speed are taken away, what are you left with? Sub-par all around ships that aren't worth a damn unless you can fit an oversized plate or use other race's weapons.
SlaineMor Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2008.08.19 14:55:00 - [29] Ive got a 48m sp Matari toon and in spite of all of their weaknesses they had teir tricks and tactics.. I have some gallente skills for faction ships... heavily cross-training amarr atm for post patch though... Dont use caldari as my 2nd account is a caldari/gallante toon.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 21:27:00 - [30] Originally by: AstroPhobic Sub-par all around ships that aren't worth a damn unless you can fit an oversized plate or use other race's weapons. Is this a troll? Rifter - one of the best Frigates in the game Rupture - one of the best Cruisers in the game Hurricane - on of the best BC's in the game Vagabond - one of the best HAC's in the game Rapier - one the best recons in the game (this may be going to change) Sliepnir - one of the best Command Ships in the game Typhoon - one of the better BS's in the game but very sp intensive Looks like Minmatar has it pretty well covered right now. That is why other races have envied us for so long. I have flown Minmatar for my entire pvp career (with the exception of the odd Velator) and I have dominated kill stats and top damage dealar in the groups I've been involved with. I'll say this - don't fly Minmatar if like Astro you have a fixed idea of how they should be flown (ie no 1600mm plates) and are not willing to learn from vets about how to use them.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 21:40:00 - [31] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 21:43:44 Originally by: Yakov Draken Rifter - one of the best Frigates in the game Rupture - one of the best Cruisers in the game Hurricane - on of the best BC's in the game Sliepnir - one of the best Command Ships in the game Typhoon - one of the better BS's in the game but very sp intensive These are true, though the Sleip and Hurricane are getting indirect nerfs to agility and mass. You also forgot the Broadsword, Wolf, and Jag... and yes that's actually going to matter in the new lineup. Quote: Vagabond - one of the best HAC's in the game Rapier - one the best recons in the game (this may be going to change) These two are going to be downright false after the speed nerf. You have logged onto test, right? Also: - Punisher - Crusader - Malediction - Arbitrator - Maller - Sacrilege - Zealot - Curse - Absolution - Damnation - Armageddon - Apoc - Abaddon - Paladin - Navy Apoc - Pilgrim Quote: Looks like Minmatar has it pretty well covered right now. That is why other races have envied us for so long. Yep. Quote: I have flown Minmatar for my entire pvp career (with the exception of the odd Velator) and I have dominated kill stats and top damage dealar in the groups I've been involved with. I'll say this - don't fly Minmatar if like Astro you have a fixed idea of how they should be flown (ie no 1600mm plates) and are not willing to learn from vets about how to use them. Ok, so apparently the old schoolers that fit 2x LAR Tempests were stupid. But maybe we don't need to go back that far. Your pretentiousness kills me, tbh. You fly your ships like they're gallente and you say "lol any1 who flies minnie anyway other then me is stoopid lolol". Man, get over yourself. I join gangs with any of my characters and I am almost automatically top damage dealer. With Barrage, from 20km. Having more SP in gunnery than the average Eve pilot has in total really helps, you know? -Liang Ed: I forgot the Pilgrim, because apparently it's pretty pwn with the scrambler changes. Ed: Also, Broadsword.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 21:43:00 - [32] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 21:44:46 Oh, but wait... then Caldari are teh sux! - Merlin - Kestrel - Griffin - Crow - Buzzard - Kitsune - Manticore - Harpy - Cormorant - Caracal - Falcon - Rook - Onyx - Eagle - Cerberus - Ferox - Drake - Nighthawk (has its uses) - Scorpion - Raven - Rokh - CNR - Golem Well, yeah that lineup looks really weak to me. -Liang Ed: Forgot a few ships
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.19 21:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 21:44:46 Oh, but wait... then Caldari are teh sux! - Merlin - Kestrel - Griffin - Crow - Buzzard - Kitsune - Manticore - Harpy - Cormorant - Caracal - Falcon - Rook - Onyx - Eagle - Cerberus - Ferox - Drake - Nighthawk (has its uses) - Scorpion - Raven - Rokh - CNR - Golem Well, yeah that lineup looks really weak to me. -Liang Ed: Forgot a few ships People who like the Caldari Rail ships are really closet Gallente pilots I totally wish I liked railguns/blasters - if I did the Rokh would totally kick ass. Of the Caldari battleships it's the only one that looks like it might be designed to hurt someone. It's the same thing with the Drake. Did the dev's suddenly decide that asymettry was silly or something?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:03:00 - [34] Originally by: Derek Sigres People who like the Caldari Rail ships are really closet Gallente pilots I totally wish I liked railguns/blasters - if I did the Rokh would totally kick ass. Of the Caldari battleships it's the only one that looks like it might be designed to hurt someone. It's the same thing with the Drake. Did the dev's suddenly decide that asymettry was silly or something? Haha, yeah. I freely admit that I am a Gallente pilot at heart... but those rail ships are super sexy for rails. I even like the Moa now that it got a 5th turret :P Oh, and just look at the Rokh. Not to mention it actually makes a hell of a torp ship on Sisi... -Liang
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:07:00 - [35] I was going to type a long winded post, but Liang saved me from it. Honestly I really can't stand people like you. You're ignorant in the true definition of the word. You openly admit that you can only fly one race - which begs the question - with the numbers certainly not falling on minmatar's side, what truly allows you to make these statements? Because the people who can proficiently fly multiple races (Liang, one of the below posters, boz, and myself) all agree upon the suckage that is minmatar. Get your head out of the sand and take a look around.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:09:00 - [36] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 22:15:30 Originally by: Liang Nuren the Sleip and Hurricane are getting indirect nerfs to agility and mass. You also forgot the Broadsword, Wolf, and Jag... and yes that's actually going to matter in the new lineup. Astro is arguing that Minmatar are crap now and have been crap so my argument is not based around the upcoming nerfs. As for the Hurricane getting nerfed how about we wait and see as they have said they will be revisiting their mass numbers. I forgot the Broadsword largely because in low sec its one of the worst HIC's due to tackle issues. HIC's with good lock times and WD's are fantastic in low sec. I also left off the Stabber plus other useful ships because I was focusing on the really strong ones. Sadly you seem incapable of comphrehension. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Yakov Draken Vagabond - one of the best HAC's in the game Rapier - one the best recons in the game (this may be going to change) These two are going to be downright false after the speed nerf. You have logged onto test, right? Liang arguing a ship sucks based on untested upcoming changes which maynot go through is just to much abstract theoricrafting for me. I would be very surpised if the Vagabond sucks after the changes. I would be much less suprised if the final patch comes through with the Vaga one fo the few real nano ships left. As for the Rapier we just have to wait and see. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Yakov Draken don't fly Minmatar if like Astro you have a fixed idea of how they should be flown (ie no 1600mm plates) and are not willing to learn from vets about how to use them. Ok, so apparently the old schoolers that fit 2x LAR Tempests were stupid. . What are you talking about? I'm saying you shouldn't write off 1600mm plates not that you should never fit 2x LAR's. I have a 2x LAR Tempest for solo work and have flown it alot. Originally by: Liang Nuren Your pretentiousness kills me, tbh. You fly your ships like they're gallente and you say "lol any1 who flies minnie anyway other then me is stoopid lolol".. Oh wow Liang is time to be a total jerk is it? I didn'ty say anyone who flies Minnie different from me is doing it wrong. I dissagreed with someone saying Minmatar sucks and has sucked for ages. You can make up positions to riducule me with all your like but it doesn't hold water. You seem to love making up positions for me and then ridiculing me for them.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:14:00 - [37] Originally by: AstroPhobic Honestly I really can't stand people like you. You're ignorant in the true definition of the word. You openly admit that you can only fly one race - which begs the question? I'm afraid you are once again wrong - I have an Amarr pvp alt.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:30:00 - [38] Then you're just obviously biased. I'm sorry, that's just all there is to it. You can't be objective and therefore I have no reason to... reason with you. The numbers agree with me. Other people agree with me. Stats, damage graphs agree with me. You seem to disagree with me, for some reason. I'll chalk it up to bias and move on. However to think that minmatar wasn't solely supported upon gimmicks and speed is simply ludicrous.
Judas Jones Amarr Black Company	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:30:00 - [39] Edited by: Judas Jones on 19/08/2008 22:30:41 Originally by: AstroPhobic I was going to type a long winded post, but Liang saved me from it. Honestly I really can't stand people like you. You're ignorant in the true definition of the word. You openly admit that you can only fly one race - which begs the question - with the numbers certainly not falling on minmatar's side, what truly allows you to make these statements? Because the people who can proficiently fly multiple races (Liang, one of the below posters, boz, and myself) all agree upon the suckage that is minmatar. Get your head out of the sand and take a look around. I can proficiently fly all race ships, BS and below, and I disagree with your general doomsday attitude, maybe you just suck at operating with minny ships
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Yakov Draken Astro is arguing that Minmatar are crap now and have been crap so my argument is not based around the upcoming nerfs. As for the Hurricane getting nerfed how about we wait and see as they have said they will be revisiting their mass numbers. So in a thread where someone's asking should I train Matari or Caldari IN THE FUTURE you don't want to talk about what's going to happen to Minnies? Got it. Quote: I also left off the Stabber plus other useful ships because I was focusing on the really strong ones. Sadly you seem incapable of comphrehension. I prefer the Stabber to the Rupture and figure it to be one of the stronger PVP cruisers. I figured you left it off because it's going to be utterly useless after the patch. Quote: Liang arguing a ship sucks based on untested upcoming changes which maynot go through is just to much abstract theoricrafting for me. Dude, the changes ARE GOING THROUGH. They took them off Sisi to test EA1.1. It sounds to me like you never even bothered to log onto test and have no idea whatsoever how the changes are going to affect you. Quote: I would be very surpised if the Vagabond sucks after the changes. I would be much less suprised if the final patch comes through with the Vaga one fo the few real nano ships left. The Vaga has no agility after the nerf... I mean, it's really bad. Also, battleship guns have no trouble hitting a nano vaga. Cruise missiles will wtfpwn you. The Vaga is dead dude. Try it on test and see (when they put it back up). Quote: As for the Rapier we just have to wait and see. Ok, so 25% nerf to web effectiveness and completely removing whatever tank it was supposed to have (nano) won't kill it? GOT IT. Holy crap, your Eve knowledge astounds me. Quote: I didn'ty say anyone who flies Minnie different from me is doing it wrong. I dissagreed with someone saying Minmatar sucks and has sucked for ages. You can make up positions to riducule me with all your like but it doesn't hold water. Minnie battleships have sucked for ages. Tank based cruisers have sucked for ages (Rupture is an exception, obviously. I don't know anyone that disputes this). Quote: You seem to love making up positions for me and then ridiculing me for them. Actually, you seem to love telling people how uber ever Minnie ship is and how you pwn in PVP. Yet you fail to take into account that people who can and do fly other races are telling you that you are wrong. Minnies aren't all that. They're good, but right now it's based entirely upon nano. Historically, it's been based on nos, alpha, ecm, etc. You know, all things that have been nerfed. And now the last thing that's holding the Minnie line up is being nerfed. -Liang
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:35:00 - [41] Originally by: Judas Jones I can proficiently fly all race ships, BS and below, and I disagree with your general doomsday attitude, maybe you just suck at operating with minny ships Glad to hear it, you'll be #37 or so to say that to me. If you care to come up with evidence other than "lern2play", let me know.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:43:00 - [42] Originally by: AstroPhobic Glad to hear it, you'll be #37 or so to say that to me. If you care to come up with evidence other than "lern2play", let me know. Hell Astro, even I think you're overly pessimistic. ;-) -Liang
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 22:49:00 - [43] It's not the end of the world for minnie - no - but after seeing the light, it will be hard to turn me back. After going through those nearly 50 pages of projectiles makes me head spin on all the downsides of minmatar - it's certainly hard to find any good points. The thing that really **es me off though is the devs intentionally built minmatar weaker than the other races (HP, weapons, EMP ammo, sensors, lock range..) - then decided to build upon speed and open slots. Then 5 years later, they come back and nerf... speed, and open slots. CCP really needs to hire someone that goes through every change and see how it affects every race, every ship, even playstyles. Honestly all I think they need a smack upside the head and take another look at their initial race plans and see why their recent "fixes" have been extremely detrimental to minmatar. denotes training amarr
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 23:03:00 - [44] Saying they 'suck' is so vague that it's easy for people to argue. EFT-wise, Matar ships probably have been always weaker. I doubt we've ever had top DPS, top tank, etc. What we used to have was tricks, like nos, ecm, etc. With no tricks, however, what's left is gank/tank, which are (still) weaker for Matar. Still, I would say that only a handful of Matar ships these days are still strong. In the patch, Rapier/Huginn are going to be a good bit weaker, since their primary module is getting wtfpwnt, and anti-nano ships aren't going to be as popular when nano's aren't viable. The vaga, as with all nano hac's, is getting slapped down hard, but unlike some of the other hac's, the vaga doesn't really have a choice as to whether it speed tanks. As far as whether CCP will actually go through with these changes, I would be surprised if they didn't go through with it. They pulled it off SiSi a few days ago, but that was only because they realized their completely overbroad patch had also screwed up the balance with missiles, heh. That'd be a sign to most rational developers that their patch meant to 'balance nanos' was way too excessive and was screwing up plenty of non-nano things, but oh well, haha. I can't see them doing a 180 degree turn at this point and coming up with reasonable changes to fix nanos. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did, and I'd gain a lot more respect for CCP, but I really doubt that happens.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:10:00 - [45] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Yakov Draken Astro is arguing that Minmatar are crap now and have been crap so my argument is not based around the upcoming nerfs. As for the Hurricane getting nerfed how about we wait and see as they have said they will be revisiting their mass numbers. So in a thread where someone's asking should I train Matari or Caldari IN THE FUTURE you don't want to talk about what's going to happen to Minnies? Got it. As I pointed out before the post you are responding to is countering Astro's view that Matar have sucked since the HP buff. Got it? Originally by: Liang Nuren I prefer the Stabber to the Rupture and figure it to be one of the stronger PVP cruisers. I figured you left it off because it's going to be utterly useless after the patch. I just left it off because I wasn't making an all inclusive list. In 0.0 I loved the Stabber before I could fly a Vag. In low sec I loved the Rupture. Originally by: Liang Nuren Dude, the changes ARE GOING THROUGH. They took them off Sisi to test EA1.1. It sounds to me like you never even bothered to log onto test and have no idea whatsoever how the changes are going to affect you. I have been following the changes on SHC where there has been some really good feedback. Unlike you my impression is that they are rethinking the agility nerfs. Sure I might be wrong and the Vagabond may suck after the next patch but like I said I doubt it. I know CCP's developers have done some really silly things I'm just not yet convinced the nerfing Minmatar to oblivion is going to be one of them. If it is I'll acknowledge you where right and my last shreads of confidence in CCP will be gone. Gotta love the "no idea whatsoever" comments from you. When I'm wrong I'm completely wrong! Originally by: Yakov Draken quote=Liang Nuren][As for the Rapier we just have to wait and see. Ok, so 25% nerf to web effectiveness and completely removing whatever tank it was supposed to have (nano) won't kill it? GOT IT. Holy crap, your Eve knowledge astounds me. Ya I'm so stupid and ignorant it is amazing. I tell ya whats worse - that a complete ignoramus like me can lead a successful pvp corp and have pwnage pvp stats. CCP have made this game such that even a complete idiot like me can succeed at pvp. Its an atrocity! I wouldn't write off the Rapier yet because there is nothing else in its role. It may not be very good in its role but when it is all you have . . . sorta like a Tempest - you use it anyway. But hey what would I know - I'm completely ignorant about Eve. Originally by: Liang Nuren [Minnie battleships have sucked for ages. Tank based cruisers have sucked for ages (Rupture is an exception, obviously. I don't know anyone that disputes this). Cough cough Typhoon cough cough - just saying. Originally by: Liang Nuren you seem to love telling people how uber ever Minnie ship is and how you pwn in PVP. Yet you fail to take into account that people who can and do fly other races are telling you that you are wrong. You would thing that I had never argued that the Tempest is badly in need of a buff and that if they nerfs go through as planned Minmatar will be borked.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:13:00 - [46] You're completely full of it. Drop it before you embarrass yourself. Seriously.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:19:00 - [47] Originally by: Yakov Draken I just left it off because I wasn't making an all inclusive list. In 0.0 I loved the Stabber before I could fly a Vag. In low sec I loved the Rupture. The Stabber typically makes all Matari "good" lists. It was really odd for you to leave it off, but it really emphasizes your "Put a plate on it" approach to everything. Quote: I have been following the changes on SHC where there has been some really good feedback. Unlike you my impression is that they are rethinking the agility nerfs. The way that they phrased it is rather ambiguous (as to whether it's going to be ship classes that got screwed or classes [Minmatar]), but doesn't change the overall effect: they are nerfing the poo out of nanos. The Vaga will not escape this fate. Quote: Gotta love the "no idea whatsoever" comments from you. When I'm wrong I'm completely wrong! I really love your snide comments that anyone who has trouble pwning face against an equally skilled character must naturally suck. Astro says "The Tempest sucks, and AC's are generally inferior to Pulse" and you say: "U NOOB, LERN2PLAY". Quote: I wouldn't write off the Rapier yet because there is nothing else in its role. It may not be very good in its role but when it is all you have . . . sorta like a Tempest - you use it anyway. Sadly, this is probably true. Quote: Cough cough Typhoon cough cough - just saying. Yeah, but it's biggest pull is that it's still really quite quick even when plated. It's not anymore. The planned nerfs are so unbelievable silly that I have trouble really imagining that they'll got through... but I've said that a few times now. -Liang
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:33:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren I really love your snide comments that anyone who has trouble pwning face against an equally skilled character must naturally suck. Astro says "The Tempest sucks, and AC's are generally inferior to Pulse" and you say: "U NOOB, LERN2PLAY". Could you please substatiate this? I have argued in many cases that the Tempest is weak and Large AC's are pretty damn sucky - it is my pet peeve. You are making it up Liang. I haven't written anything fitting what you are attributing to me. I don't write in leet speak, I don't have much interest in 1v1 performances. Obviously I've really ****ed you off and your subjectivity has taken full control. Personally I prefer it when you argue against my opinions rather than make up opinions for me. Bleh.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:24:00 - [49] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/08/2008 01:26:11 From this thread: Quote: I have flown Minmatar for my entire pvp career (with the exception of the odd Velator) and I have dominated kill stats and top damage dealar in the groups I've been involved with. I'll say this - don't fly Minmatar if like Astro you have a fixed idea of how they should be flown (ie no 1600mm plates) and are not willing to learn from vets about how to use them. Translation: - I totally awesome at PVP and I dish out more damage than everyone else. Everything is fine, and you're a total noob that doesn't know how to fly Minnies (use a damn 1600 plate noob). There's more examples available if we go back and look at other recent examples of us chatting. -Liang Ed: This is very likely a communication issue. Intentions, sarcasm, and even legitimate curiosity (apparently) doesn't translate well over a purely text medium. I normally pride myself in being exceedingly clear and precise, so I'm not sure why we can't communicate effectively.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:32:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP The agility values are also slightly off. They were rebalanced with regard to MWD mass addition, which closed the gaps between ship types, removing uniqueness a bit. This will be fixed, also we're looking at boosting some ship classes in regards of agility. Translation: - Agility values are off (could be on one ship or any ship). - We had rebalanced them with MWD's in mind, but that made them not unique. We'll fix that (Very Ambiguous Statement) - Also we're looking at boosting some ship classes in regards of agility. This is why I don't see them fixing Minnie agilities, btw. I still anxiously await the dev blog telling us what the devs giveth and the devs taketh away. -Liang
Nexus Kinnon A Few Good Men.	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:10:00 - [51] just sayin' that I bought an amarrian alt the other day and for the first time I actually felt dangerous in a battleship, as opposed to useless.
Kalissandra	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:16:00 - [52] You guys really need to stop bickering with each other and just answer the OP's question. lol how off topic is this tangent that we're now on? I'm a minnie pilot with caldari cross trained (now thinking of cross training armarr) and it is in your best interest to keep your options open as much as possible, but that is something to look into for the future. You need an answer right now right? Do you plan to PVE or PVP? Tbh caldari are best for pve and actually not bad at pvp aswell if you also train rails for long range to compliment torpedo missiles at short range. They are more of a fleet ship rather than a solo pvp ship. As for minmatar, they're ok for pve up to lvl3, lvl4 chose another race. PVP on the other hand it's a lot like the case pve in that there are better ships for the role you're trying to forfil. So my advice for the budding new player is to train caldari if you absolutely have to chose between 1 of the 2, otherwise just train armarr, they're so hot right now.

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