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T2 ammo - totally and utterly shit

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Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:20:00 - [1] Just a quick one. Basically nearly all T2 ammo has little practical purpose (aside from Barrage, Null, and the long-range sniping ammo) thanks to faction ammo. If you want an example... T2 heavy missiles. Less speed than faction, less range, less damage, extra penalties... pls just fix it (and things like Hail and Void). ta x
Mashie Saldana Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:35:00 - [2] One fix is to remove the faction ammo
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:37:00 - [3] Originally by: Mashie Saldana One fix is to remove the faction ammo Hm. Do you program for CCP?
Elhina Novae Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:41:00 - [4] Amarr says otherwise
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:44:00 - [5] Short range ammo is indeed obsolete. All forms of long range ammo is viable. Barrage, Null and Scorch are all integral parts of many PvP setups, as is the long range rail/beam/arty ammo of all sizes. Some types of missiles are useless (all forms of Rage&Fury) while almost all forms of Javelin and Precision are quite useful (notable exception: Heavy precision missiles because they're not all in line with the two other types of Precision).
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:55:00 - [6] Rage and Fury missiles are fine.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:59:00 - [7] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Short range ammo is indeed obsolete. All forms of long range ammo is viable. Barrage, Null and Scorch are all integral parts of many PvP setups, as is the long range rail/beam/arty ammo of all sizes. Some types of missiles are useless (all forms of Rage&Fury) while almost all forms of Javelin and Precision are quite useful (notable exception: Heavy precision missiles because they're not all in line with the two other types of Precision). Uh. I can count the number of times i've used quake on one hand, and the number of times that I SHOULD have used quake... well let's say it's 0. There were a few times, but that was pre- faction ammo.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:08:00 - [8] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 18/08/2008 21:07:54 Originally by: Butter Dog nearly all T2 ammo has little practical purpose (aside from Barrage, Null, and the long-range sniping ammo) thanks to faction ammo. Hail M is also useful but yes T2 ammo needs a makeover.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:18:00 - [9] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/08/2008 21:18:27 Hail is only useful (in a few, limited situations) because EMP sucks.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:18:00 - [10] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/08/2008 21:18:42 Originally by: Yakov Draken Hail M is also useful but yes T2 ammo needs a makeover. Only because EMP sucks (read: has less base damage then other ammos, therefore there is a 10% damage gulf between Hail and RF EMP which doesn't exist for other races. Also, three damage types suck).
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:19:00 - [11] E-high five!
atomic killer	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:22:00 - [12] from my point of view, t2 close range ammo shouldnt have any penalties, then it would be usefull. Otherwise faction is way better. Close range t2 ammo was only good before faction ammo came out
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 18/08/2008 21:34:35 Originally by: AstroPhobic Uh. I can count the number of times i've used quake on one hand, and the number of times that I SHOULD have used quake... well let's say it's 0. There were a few times, but that was pre- faction ammo. And this invalidates my statement in what way? Quake is short range, and thus Obsolete. Just like Conflagration and Gleam P.S: As for Rage&Fury. Why would you want to use it. It's advantages over faction ammo is...pathetic. For HAMs it's 5 points of damage (115 vs 120) in exchange for shorter range, velocity penalty, lower explosion velocity and larger explosion radius.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:48:00 - [14] Uh... I don't know. I thought you meant long range as in long-range-guns. Miscommunication I s'pose.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:07:00 - [15] The penalties on T2 ammo make them not worth using over faction in most cases. Rage HAMs for instance have almost half the range, kill cap recharge and won't even do full damage to a Cruiser. The only real positive thing about them is cost effectiveness...
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel P.S: As for Rage&Fury. Why would you want to use it. It's advantages over faction ammo is...pathetic. For HAMs it's 5 points of damage (115 vs 120) in exchange for shorter range, velocity penalty, lower explosion velocity and larger explosion radius. Because Rage does more damage. And it's cheaper. The nature of missiles, where it's easier to predict their damage relative to turrets, means that Rage HAMs will always do full damage to a webbed ship of BC size or greater. The penalties are largely inconsequential - if you firing HAMs then your target is webbed, so the lesser range and explosion velocity are irrelevant. As is the explosion radius, against a BC or bigger. The only penalty of any consequence is the cap recharge penalty - but, in a world of capless missiles and buffer tanks, it doesn't really mean much either.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:14:00 - [17] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 18/08/2008 22:14:24 Originally by: Gypsio III Because Rage does more damage. And it's cheaper. The nature of missiles, where it's easier to predict their damage relative to turrets, means that Rage HAMs will always do full damage to a webbed ship of BC size or greater. The penalties are largely inconsequential - if you firing HAMs then your target is webbed, so the lesser range and explosion velocity are irrelevant. As is the explosion radius, against a BC or bigger. The only penalty of any consequence is the cap recharge penalty - but, in a world of capless missiles and buffer tanks, it doesn't really mean much either. My big beef with them is that you lose alot of cap recharge before the fight (just having them in your launchers nerfs your cap recharge). Thus, less cap recharge before the fight means that you have less cap going into the fight. -Liang Ed: It occurs to me that I probably shouldn't care... seing as how I normally have my Drake play passive bait anyway. :-/
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:17:00 - [18] Yes - I'll have CN loaded by default to maintain cap, but I'll always want to reload as I drop out of warp.
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders Omega Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:20:00 - [19] Edited by: Ranvaldy on 18/08/2008 22:21:45 Yes also T2 short range crystals are UTTERLY crap Amarr navy Multi L combined dmg 55.2 T2 short range crystal combined dmg 56 So yes it makes "more" dmg BUT with a penalty of 50%!!!!!!! reduced tracking. ITS SILLY !Want to hear more silly ? T2 crystals burn like paper AND u cant get them in LP store.Nuff said imo. Totally revamp T2 short range ammo please.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:21:00 - [20] Originally by: Ranvaldy Yes also T2 short range crystals are UTTERLY crap Amarr navy Multi L combined dmg 55.2 T2 short range crystal combined dmg 56 So yes it makes "more" dmg BUT with a penalty of 50%!!!!!!! reduced tracking. ITS SILLY ! Totally revamp T2 short range ammo please I was under the impression that Conflag is useful for shooting passive Drakes... not that it's much of a niche. -Liang
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders Omega Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:25:00 - [21] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ranvaldy Yes also T2 short range crystals are UTTERLY crap Amarr navy Multi L combined dmg 55.2 T2 short range crystal combined dmg 56 So yes it makes "more" dmg BUT with a penalty of 50%!!!!!!! reduced tracking. ITS SILLY ! Totally revamp T2 short range ammo please I was under the impression that Conflag is useful for shooting passive Drakes... not that it's much of a niche. -Liang Damn u replied too fast b4 i polished my post but anyway i dont think that extra thermal dmg(+5)(because 28EM+28Thermal is the case in Conflag for AN Multi its 32.2+23) compensates the 50% tracking penalty.What if u shoot glancing hit because of the penalty with conflag instead of an excellent hit ?Can happen then ure way on dmg than with Multi
Grarr Dexx Amarr Avenging United	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:32:00 - [22] Easy answer here: just because the current metagame removes all use from a few modules / ammo types does not mean they should be 'fixed'/removed. Doing that would make every patch an endless change of all the 'fixed' modules/ammo types so they 'work' in the current metagame, something that can't be predicted.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Ranvaldy Damn u replied too fast b4 i polished my post but anyway i dont think that extra thermal dmg(+5)(because 28EM+28Thermal is the case in Conflag for AN Multi its 32.2+23) compensates the 50% tracking penalty.What if u shoot glancing hit because of the penalty with conflag instead of an excellent hit ?Can happen then ure way lower on dmg than with Multi Now think about all your hits being that way because you fight in falloff. Um, anyway... I do know what you're saying. A passive Drake is the only really good use case I can come up with for Conflag. -Liang
Grarr Dexx Amarr Avenging United	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:35:00 - [24] Conflagration's uses were weakened with the EM resistance nerf.
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders Omega Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Easy answer here: just because the current metagame removes all use from a few modules / ammo types does not mean they should be 'fixed'/removed. Doing that would make every patch an endless change of all the 'fixed' modules/ammo types so they 'work' in the current metagame, something that can't be predicted. So ure saying devs shouldnt polish their work?Arent what patches up for?Good attitude right:some things suck lets never do anythign with them.Thats just so wrong imo In the endless patch thingie ure a little bit right but not entirely(I admit changes make troubles).
McCreary075	Posted - 2008.08.18 23:42:00 - [26] I'd like short range blaster T2 ammo that DOESN'T nerf the tracking. What good is extra damage if you miss every friggin' shot?? Fed Navy or Caldari Navy Anti-Matter is clearly the way to go in blaster boats. Void - -25% to Range (anti-matter is -50%), -50% tracking, 25% more cap usage (over anti-matter, no less) Null - +25% to Range (thorium is -12.5%), -25% tracking, +25% falloff. 303 DPS with Caldari Navy, no penalties other than standard anti-matter. 305 with Void, now take into account the tracking difference. 240 with Null, still shooting at less that 10km means your ship is getting pounded to pieces while you do less damage. I'll keep using the Faction Ammo.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.19 00:03:00 - [27] How about faction ammo only goes into faction guns/launchers ducks
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders Omega Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.19 00:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Vaal Erit How about faction ammo only goes into faction guns/launchers ducks I dont like that
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 00:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Vaal Erit How about faction ammo only goes into faction guns/launchers ducks Touch my AN MF and die.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.19 00:56:00 - [30] Im all for keeping the Penaltys on the Short Range Amnos but increasing the Damage(lets say 25% more), so people have more Options instead of 2 Amnos that do the same.

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