Originally by: Mashie Saldana

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One fix is to remove the faction ammo

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Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel

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Short range ammo is indeed obsolete.

All forms of long range ammo is viable.

Barrage, Null and Scorch are all integral parts of many PvP setups, as is the long range rail/beam/arty ammo of all sizes.

Some types of missiles are useless (all forms of Rage&Fury) while almost all forms of Javelin and Precision are quite useful (notable exception: Heavy precision missiles because they're not all in line with the two other types of Precision).

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Originally by: Butter Dog

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nearly all T2 ammo has little practical purpose (aside from Barrage, Null, and the long-range sniping ammo) thanks to faction ammo.

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Hail M is also useful but yes T2 ammo needs a makeover.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Uh. I can count the number of times i've used quake on one hand, and the number of times that I SHOULD have used quake... well let's say it's 0. There were a few times, but that was pre- faction ammo.

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Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel

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P.S: As for Rage&Fury. Why would you want to use it. It's advantages over faction ammo is...pathetic. For HAMs it's 5 points of damage (115 vs 120) in exchange for shorter range, velocity penalty, lower explosion velocity and larger explosion radius.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Because Rage does more damage. And it's cheaper.

The nature of missiles, where it's easier to predict their damage relative to turrets, means that Rage HAMs will always do full damage to a webbed ship of BC size or greater. The penalties are largely inconsequential - if you firing HAMs then your target is webbed, so the lesser range and explosion velocity are irrelevant. As is the explosion radius, against a BC or bigger. The only penalty of any consequence is the cap recharge penalty - but, in a world of capless missiles and buffer tanks, it doesn't really mean much either.

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Originally by: Ranvaldy

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Yes also T2 short range crystals are UTTERLY crap
Amarr navy Multi L combined dmg 55.2
T2 short range crystal combined dmg 56
So yes it makes "more" dmg BUT with a penalty of 50%!!!!!!! reduced tracking.
ITS SILLY !
Totally revamp T2 short range ammo please

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Ranvaldy

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Yes also T2 short range crystals are UTTERLY crap
Amarr navy Multi L combined dmg 55.2
T2 short range crystal combined dmg 56
So yes it makes "more" dmg BUT with a penalty of 50%!!!!!!! reduced tracking.
ITS SILLY !
Totally revamp T2 short range ammo please

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I was under the impression that Conflag is useful for shooting passive Drakes... not that it's much of a niche.

-Liang

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Originally by: Ranvaldy

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Damn u replied too fast b4 i polished my post but anyway i dont think that extra thermal dmg(+5)(because 28EM+28Thermal is the case in Conflag for AN Multi its 32.2+23)
compensates the 50% tracking penalty.What if u shoot glancing hit because of the penalty with conflag instead of an excellent hit ?Can happen then ure way lower on dmg than with Multi

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Originally by: Grarr Dexx

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Easy answer here: just because the current metagame removes all use from a few modules / ammo types does not mean they should be 'fixed'/removed. Doing that would make every patch an endless change of all the 'fixed' modules/ammo types so they 'work' in the current metagame, something that can't be predicted.

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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How about faction ammo only goes into faction guns/launchers

*ducks*

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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How about faction ammo only goes into faction guns/launchers

*ducks*

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Originally by: The Djego

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Im all for keeping the Penaltys on the Short Range Amnos but increasing the Damage(lets say 25% more), so people have more Options instead of 2 Amnos that do the same.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Hail is only useful (in a few, limited situations) because EMP sucks.

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Originally by: murder one

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Void, Hail etc. needs about 30-40% DPS increase to make it worth it.

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Hail is only useful (in a few, limited situations) because EMP sucks.

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That is not my experiance - perhaps it is a question of combat style. I have fought in heaps of up close slug fests where I'm shooting at multi-webbed BC's and BS's at about 1k range. That makes Hail M good in my books.

Perhaps the best thing about Hail M is that it is good in combats that really matter. For almost every gank I'll have Barrage or Faction EMP fit and it will help me get higher on the killmail. Seeing as we were going to win with no losses anyway that doesn't matter much. Hail M is good in those hard fought, point blank range, fights that rock and really matter.

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Hail is only useful (in a few, limited situations) because EMP sucks.

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That is not my experiance - perhaps it is a question of combat style. I have fought in heaps of up close slug fests where I'm shooting at multi-webbed BC's and BS's at about 1k range. That makes Hail M good in my books.

Perhaps the best thing about Hail M is that it is good in combats that really matter. For almost every gank I'll have Barrage or Faction EMP fit and it will help me get higher on the killmail. Seeing as we were going to win with no losses anyway that doesn't matter much. Hail M is good in those hard fought, point blank range, fights that rock and really matter.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Hail is only useful (in a few, limited situations) because EMP sucks.

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That is not my experiance - perhaps it is a question of combat style. I have fought in heaps of up close slug fests where I'm shooting at multi-webbed BC's and BS's at about 1k range. That makes Hail M good in my books.

Perhaps the best thing about Hail M is that it is good in combats that really matter. For almost every gank I'll have Barrage or Faction EMP fit and it will help me get higher on the killmail. Seeing as we were going to win with no losses anyway that doesn't matter much. Hail M is good in those hard fought, point blank range, fights that rock and really matter.

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Your personal experiences don't interest me. Numbers don't lie, people are biased.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Tbh, if I had RF Fusion M doing roughly the equivalent DPS of Hail M (like CN AM vs Void), I'd never ever load Hail M.

You load Hail out of necessity. Other races can just use faction ammo ;)

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Tbh, if I had RF Fusion M doing roughly the equivalent DPS of Hail M (like CN AM vs Void), I'd never ever load Hail M.

You load Hail out of necessity. Other races can just use faction ammo ;)

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What is it about you guys and Hail M? On SHC people tell cheerful stories about pwning people with Hail M while you say it is only worth using because RF Fusion is worse. Well of course - Hail M is good because it is better than the alternative in a given situation.

You really don't want to like Hail.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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There is where I point back to the thing you quote in the first place - in very few situations.:]

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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IE, you're doing more damage in the majority of situations with RF emp due to tracking. Fitting a double web and loading hail does nothing more that gimp yourself un-necessarily.:]

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Let your playstyle determine your ammo, not the other way around. [:roll]

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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I don't like Hail. I use it (fairly often, for the fights which, as you said, actually count) out of neccesity. Does it melt people's faces? Well, yes, in the correct circumstances.

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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I never said in very few situation - I said Hail was useful in up close slugfests which we could lose. ie The important fights. You arn't reading what I'm writing Astro,

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Quote:

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Who is fitting a dbl web? I'm in a gang more often than not. Contrary to some peoples beliefs solo ships performance is fairly irrelevant most of the time. There is always a bigger blob and when there is only one of you that is never more true.

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Quote:

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Btw how bad do your think Hail M's tracking is?

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Quote:

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Medium AC's are designed to track cruisers - they track webbed BC's/BS's just fine with Hail fit.

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Quote:

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You don't need dbl webs

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Quote:

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So no you are not doing more damage with Faction EMP at point blank range in gang fights due to tracking.

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Originally by: murder one

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Void, Hail etc. needs about 30-40% DPS increase to make it worth it.

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That sure would be a good way of stopping people flying other races - unless of course you have some completely OTT buffs to propose for them to.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Chances are in a gang fight you're not within hugging distance,

. . .

You do for hail to do more DPS. Like I said earlier, if you're sitting still 2km away from a webbed target, you've already disadvantaged yourself from your next target or wasted time switching ammo.

. . .

Next time pvp is a big hug fest, you let me know.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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See, the funny thing is, it seems to me like you just look at EFT dps and say OK - this one's better. You don't realize that you have tracking issues. You dont realize that at 10km you're better off with barrage. You probably don't know a lot of things like hit quality scales linearly with falloff. A lot of this is tough to tell ingame, and one who simply plays the game and ignores forums/discussions would probably never know.:]

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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If you're moving at 150m/s and your target is 90% webbed - YOU WILL have tracking issues with hail. I don't care if you say you hit fine - or you think you hit fine - you don't. Perhaps you should take a look at the tracking formula.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Hail has uses. Gang fights is not one of them. Any sort of gang engagement is NOT a 5km bubble of love.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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You're still forgetting the basic issue.

Which is this:
Hail M has no alternative which provides the (essentially) same damage output. Other high damage T2 ammos do (Void, Conflag, etc, all easily matched by their respective faction ammos). Everyone else gets to use faction ammo which has no penalities, we can't if we hope to achieve our full DPS. You use it because you have to.

It's not a reason to love Hail (I hate the fact I often have no valid alternative and have to work my way around Hail drawbacks instead, particularly ugly for solo/small gang work). However, if you had RF Fusion M which did 99% of Hail damage without any drawbacks, you'd be saying Hail sucks (just like blaster pilots will say Void sucks and Amarr that Conflag sucks) too.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Don't talk to me like I'm dumb. I have treated you with somewhat respect, I'd advise you to do the same

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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2. If you're sitting stationary from a target at 1km, that's not a gang fight, that's a gank.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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3. I don't know what kind of pvp you do in close range ships, .

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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undock games doesn't count as the majority of my pvp.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Edited by: AstroPhobic on 19/08/2008 03:54:40
Pretty sure Branko's saying that if EMP did as much damage as AM (and switched damage types with fusion, god forbid), then there would be 0 use for hail. But as of now, hail does a small but significant amount of damage higher than EMP with generally more favorable damage types.

Still doesn't mean I'll ever use it. The day you catch me sitting in a minnie ship at 1km completely stopped is the day I got brain cancer. Some people like it too much - some people see it as a necessary evil - and some people don't ever use it. Point in case, it all stems from CCP's pre-nerf of minmatar 5 years ago.

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Originally by: murder one

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Still confused. EMP's damage type is 100% favorable. EM is the lowest resist on about 60% of my ships.

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 04:35:38

Originally by: murder one

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Still confused. EMP's damage type is 100% favorable. EM is the lowest resist on about 60% of my ships.

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Two things.

1. EMP does almost half EMP, plenty of EXP and some kinetic

2. EM is the highest resist on armor tanks using EANM's - this is a very popular setup. Resists of around 85% vs EM are fairly common.

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Originally by: murder one

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Ahh. Now I get it.

Assuming that your perceptions are that of the general player base at large (assuming a lot I'm sure) then it makes sense to me why people would think that EMP is a poor choice for damage type..

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Originally by: murder one

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Most of the . . . *armor* tanks that I come across these days have EM as the lowest resist, or nearly as low as explosive.

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Originally by: murder one

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[Thanks for trying however.

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Originally by: Holy Lowlander

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so your own race' t2 ammo sucks ?!

I present to you , SCORCH AMMO !!!
Its made out of win, range and cool light effects !

so train for t2 pulse lasers today

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Originally by: Bubleguy

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You compare only the damage and the penalties between Faction and T2.

I think you are forgetting an important point or maybe I am wrong.

Let's take the example of cruise missiles... or heavy missile if you prefer .
The difference between T2 and faction is :
To use T2 missile you have to use T2 launchers, and to use T2 launchers you need to have train the skill heavy missile specialization that give 2% rate of fire per level.
So if you take time to train that skill lvl, you will launch T2 missile more often than with faction one.

It is the same with turrets. For example if you use T2 crystal you need to use T2pulse/beam that requires beam/pulse specialisation skills(give 2% rate of fire per lvl).

Sure it takes more time to use T2 instead of faction but in the end the damage will be better.

Am I wrong?

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Originally by: murder one

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Void, Hail etc. needs about 30-40% DPS increase to make it worth it. Particularly Void with it's horrible cap use and garbage tracking. Hail isn't so bad when I use it with my Hurricane. Sometimes I use it as a different damage type over RF EMP M.

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Quote:

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lower the penalties and the penalties that mutliply the more you have and lower the time needed to manufacture, there, solved ;)

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

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Please do not feed Butter Dog.

Barrage - Great Autocannon Ammo
Null - Great Blaster Ammo
Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles - Long Range HAMs (great)
Scorch - Awesome for Pulse Lasers
Aurora - Nice for Sniping

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Originally by: murder one

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My RF EMP works great. WTH are you talking about?

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Originally by: Butter Dog

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Just a quick one.

Basically nearly all T2 ammo has little practical purpose (aside from Barrage, Null, and the long-range sniping ammo) thanks to faction ammo.

If you want an example...

T2 heavy missiles.

Less speed than faction, less range, less damage, extra penalties... pls just fix it (and things like Hail and Void).

ta x

Topic moderated - Mitnal

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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I'd rather just have close range T2 ammo that did more damage than T1, less damage than Faction, but didn't have tracking and cap issues. The way it works out right now there may as well just not be T2 ammo available because there's almost no situations where I'd actually use it. Whatever damage benefit it has over T1 is lost in the tracking unless its a gate gank but if its a gate gank I probably wouldn't waste expensive ammo anyway.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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As of this exact moment there are a number of useless missiles in the Caldari lineup:

Precision Heavy Missiles - 25% less damage for a mere 250m/s explosion velocity. Also, the missiles travel slower than the T1 varient while slowing you down.

Precision Cruise Missiles - 25% less damage but it gets the SAME explosion velocity as the Precision Heavy Missile. Useless given the current situation where if you aren't fighting a battleship it's probably a nanoship and that means it gets to ignore most of your damage anyway. Also, they have a speed penalty.

Fury Heavy Missiles - Extra damage is nice but your range is hacked down to slightly more than that of a HAM. HAM's do more damage - why bother loading Fury Heavy Missiles?

Fury Cruise Missiles - Extra damage, range is hacked down to slightly more than Torpedos. Torpedos do more damage - why bother?


However there are some exceedingly useful T2 missiles:

Precison Light Missiles - the first and last word in the Caldari arsenel against the nano ship. Essentially the only munition that works against a nano ship.

Javelin Rockets - Lets you stay outside of web range when spitting rockets at people. Downside is they make rockets suck harder than they do already in terms of damage.

Javelin HAM's - similar damage to Heavy Missiles with similar range. HAM's and their long range varient give you the best of both worlds.

Javelin Torps - Less range than Cruise missiles but still sufficient for many PVE (and a handful of PVP applications). Less damage than the T1 varient but it still delivers loads of damage.

Rage Torps - Target not moving and at point blank range? Rage torps are the last word in the caldari sup capital lineup for delivering unimaginable pain. The downside is you rarely find a situation to use them in.

Rage Rockets - Make your rockets suck less at delivering damage. The downside is you're guarnteed to be inside web range without excellet skills and a range bonused ship.

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Originally by: Denuo Secus

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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As of this exact moment there are a number of useless missiles in the Caldari lineup:

Precision Heavy Missiles - 25% less damage for a mere 250m/s explosion velocity. Also, the missiles travel slower than the T1 varient while slowing you down.

Precision Cruise Missiles - 25% less damage but it gets the SAME explosion velocity as the Precision Heavy Missile. Useless given the current situation where if you aren't fighting a battleship it's probably a nanoship and that means it gets to ignore most of your damage anyway. Also, they have a speed penalty.

Fury Heavy Missiles - Extra damage is nice but your range is hacked down to slightly more than that of a HAM. HAM's do more damage - why bother loading Fury Heavy Missiles?

Fury Cruise Missiles - Extra damage, range is hacked down to slightly more than Torpedos. Torpedos do more damage - why bother?


However there are some exceedingly useful T2 missiles:

Precison Light Missiles - the first and last word in the Caldari arsenel against the nano ship. Essentially the only munition that works against a nano ship.

Javelin Rockets - Lets you stay outside of web range when spitting rockets at people. Downside is they make rockets suck harder than they do already in terms of damage.

Javelin HAM's - similar damage to Heavy Missiles with similar range. HAM's and their long range varient give you the best of both worlds.

Javelin Torps - Less range than Cruise missiles but still sufficient for many PVE (and a handful of PVP applications). Less damage than the T1 varient but it still delivers loads of damage.

Rage Torps - Target not moving and at point blank range? Rage torps are the last word in the caldari sup capital lineup for delivering unimaginable pain. The downside is you rarely find a situation to use them in.

Rage Rockets - Make your rockets suck less at delivering damage. The downside is you're guarnteed to be inside web range without excellet skills and a range bonused ship.

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Great roundup, thanks!
For instance, I didn't see the equality of Javelin HAM and HMs before

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

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Null - Great Blaster Ammo

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Originally by: Mag's

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

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Null - Great Blaster Ammo

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Originally by: Butter Dog

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Originally by: Denuo Secus

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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As of this exact moment there are a number of useless missiles in the Caldari lineup:

Precision Heavy Missiles - 25% less damage for a mere 250m/s explosion velocity. Also, the missiles travel slower than the T1 varient while slowing you down.

Precision Cruise Missiles - 25% less damage but it gets the SAME explosion velocity as the Precision Heavy Missile. Useless given the current situation where if you aren't fighting a battleship it's probably a nanoship and that means it gets to ignore most of your damage anyway. Also, they have a speed penalty.

Fury Heavy Missiles - Extra damage is nice but your range is hacked down to slightly more than that of a HAM. HAM's do more damage - why bother loading Fury Heavy Missiles?

Fury Cruise Missiles - Extra damage, range is hacked down to slightly more than Torpedos. Torpedos do more damage - why bother?


However there are some exceedingly useful T2 missiles:

Precison Light Missiles - the first and last word in the Caldari arsenel against the nano ship. Essentially the only munition that works against a nano ship.

Javelin Rockets - Lets you stay outside of web range when spitting rockets at people. Downside is they make rockets suck harder than they do already in terms of damage.

Javelin HAM's - similar damage to Heavy Missiles with similar range. HAM's and their long range varient give you the best of both worlds.

Javelin Torps - Less range than Cruise missiles but still sufficient for many PVE (and a handful of PVP applications). Less damage than the T1 varient but it still delivers loads of damage.

Rage Torps - Target not moving and at point blank range? Rage torps are the last word in the caldari sup capital lineup for delivering unimaginable pain. The downside is you rarely find a situation to use them in.

Rage Rockets - Make your rockets suck less at delivering damage. The downside is you're guarnteed to be inside web range without excellet skills and a range bonused ship.

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Great roundup, thanks!
For instance, I didn't see the equality of Javelin HAM and HMs before

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Its a good roundup if you take T2 missiles in isolation.

But factor in the lack of penalties from Faction, and the extra benefits, and the vast majority of T2 missiles in fact don't really have a role.

PS - why did they remove the word shit from the tpoic title? it aint moderated these days

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Originally by: Mag's

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

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Null - Great Blaster Ammo

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Originally by: Zantei

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Void is funny as shit, it doesn't hit anything at all. When the web nerf comes in, it'll be even more useless.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Zantei

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Void is funny as shit, it doesn't hit anything at all. When the web nerf comes in, it'll be even more useless.

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Why do you think they call it Void? Void does afterall mean useless, or ineffectual.

It's just like fury missiles are so called because you get enraged when trying to use them. And Rage missiles cause even more anger thus the stronger anger synonym.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Zantei

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Void is funny as shit, it doesn't hit anything at all. When the web nerf comes in, it'll be even more useless.

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Why do you think they call it Void? Void does afterall mean useless, or ineffectual.

It's just like fury missiles are so called because you get enraged when trying to use them. And Rage missiles cause even more anger thus the stronger anger synonym.

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Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn

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The only people who would be against removing the penalties from Tech 2 ammo are people who run missions and sell faction ammo or they don't have the skills to use Tech 2 ammo themselves. There is absolutely no reason that Tech 2 ammo should have such steep penalties. It is Tech 2, it should be way better than Tech 1 ammo and if faction ammo was not around, people would in many cases use Tech 1 ammo over Tech 2 due to the penalties.

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Originally by: Derek Sigres

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Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn

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The only people who would be against removing the penalties from Tech 2 ammo are people who run missions and sell faction ammo or they don't have the skills to use Tech 2 ammo themselves. There is absolutely no reason that Tech 2 ammo should have such steep penalties. It is Tech 2, it should be way better than Tech 1 ammo and if faction ammo was not around, people would in many cases use Tech 1 ammo over Tech 2 due to the penalties.

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Penalties are fine in a general way - it's just that often the penalties make it impossible to do the job you want to do with the ammunition. If you load void it's because you want to deal horrible pain at POINT BLANK range - the tracking penalty means if the target so much as uses a can of air to propel their ship around you're going to miss. . . A LOT! It's directly contrary to what you're trying to do - maximize your damage. Instead it OUGHT to steepen the cap drain on your guns substantially. This is a manageable problem to overcome.

As an example where the downside doesn't really do anything, look at Spike ammo. It's commonly seen on fleet battleships in spite of the horrible tracking penalty because at the ranges they operate (often at or near a standstill) the penalty is meaningless.

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Originally by: Mashie Saldana

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One fix is to remove the faction ammo

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Originally by: Setana Manoro

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Originally by: Mashie Saldana

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One fix is to remove the faction ammo

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Yet another fix is for the OP to pvp in-game and not on the eve-o forums. You know, log in from time to time and kill something, play the game.

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