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Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:03:00 - [1] Exploration Ship Hanger One of the principle discussions regarding exploration on EVE is whether a single exploration/combat vessel should be created by CCP. Proponents of the idea note that two vessels are currently needed to clear any exploration site -- one to find the site and one to fight the NPCs within. Without a single ship, the exploration profession requires either an alt account or several trips back and forth from a safe docking spot to the exploration site using different vessels. The single exploration/combat ship proponents are also concerned that attempts to shoehorn exploration modules into a currently designed combat ship are sufficiently inefficient as to make such a ship incapable of realistically performing either task. Opponents to the single exploration/combat ship contend that any ship that has the ability to warp while cloaked, probe at covert op speeds, and tackle 0.0 exploration sites is unbalanced. Given the level of ingenuity of EVE pilots, it appears that CCP is not inclined to change the current ship design allocations. And frankly, I don't blame them. I assert, however, that the single ship solution/debate is too narrow and another possibility exists. My suggestion is to create an Exploration Ship Hanger (ESH) module. The ESH would be a low-slot module that could be attached to a Marauder-class vessel. The ESH could house a Covert Ops Frigate (rigs and all) that the Marauder pilot could board either by jettisoning the Covert Ops Frigate and then ejecting from the Marauder to board the Covert Ops ship or by directly making the Covert Ops Frigate the "active" ship and "undocking" from the ESH. To compensate for this versatility, the ESH would add significant mass to the Marauder (including the mass associated with the Covert Ops ship). That would accordingly impact maximum velocity, aligning speed, and potentially other movement related functions. Also, if a Covert Ops ship is "docked" in the ESH when a Marauder gets destroyed, it may suffer a similar fate. The obvious downside is that when flying around in the Covert Ops ship, the Marauder is free-floating in space. Such a module would allow a explorer to probe out far-flung locations without needing to make multiple trips. The explorer would face significant risk flying a Maurader-class vessel into potentially hostile space but would still enjoy the ability to locate an exploration site and then to board the Marauder to clear out the NPCs. As an aside, I had initially contemplated that a Battleship or larger class ship could mount the ESH module but I figured I had no doubt missed some potential for abuse. Limiting the ESH to a Marauder-class ship reduced its potential for "uberness." I would appreciate your thoughts? Des Jardin
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:34:00 - [2] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/08/2008 20:34:14 Originally by: Des Jardin ...stuff... Probing out explorer's free floating marauders would likely be vastly more profitable than bothering with exploration sites themselves. I always thought it a little weird that recon ships don't get any bonuses to scan probe launchers. It would seem to make sense that a pretty major reconnaissance module would have a play on a recon ship.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:48:00 - [3] Originally by: Des Jardin Exploration Ship Hanger One of the principle discussions regarding exploration on EVE is whether a single exploration/combat vessel should be created by CCP. Proponents of the idea note that two vessels are currently needed to clear any exploration site -- one to find the site and one to fight the NPCs within. Without a single ship, the exploration profession requires either an alt account or several trips back and forth from a safe docking spot to the exploration site using different vessels. The single exploration/combat ship proponents are also concerned that attempts to shoehorn exploration modules into a currently designed combat ship are sufficiently inefficient as to make such a ship incapable of realistically performing either task. Opponents to the single exploration/combat ship contend that any ship that has the ability to warp while cloaked, probe at covert op speeds, and tackle 0.0 exploration sites is unbalanced. Given the level of ingenuity of EVE pilots, it appears that CCP is not inclined to change the current ship design allocations. And frankly, I don't blame them. I assert, however, that the single ship solution/debate is too narrow and another possibility exists. My suggestion is to create an Exploration Ship Hanger (ESH) module. The ESH would be a low-slot module that could be attached to a Marauder-class vessel. The ESH could house a Covert Ops Frigate (rigs and all) that the Marauder pilot could board either by jettisoning the Covert Ops Frigate and then ejecting from the Marauder to board the Covert Ops ship or by directly making the Covert Ops Frigate the "active" ship and "undocking" from the ESH. To compensate for this versatility, the ESH would add significant mass to the Marauder (including the mass associated with the Covert Ops ship). That would accordingly impact maximum velocity, aligning speed, and potentially other movement related functions. Also, if a Covert Ops ship is "docked" in the ESH when a Marauder gets destroyed, it may suffer a similar fate. The obvious downside is that when flying around in the Covert Ops ship, the Marauder is free-floating in space. Such a module would allow a explorer to probe out far-flung locations without needing to make multiple trips. The explorer would face significant risk flying a Maurader-class vessel into potentially hostile space but would still enjoy the ability to locate an exploration site and then to board the Marauder to clear out the NPCs. As an aside, I had initially contemplated that a Battleship or larger class ship could mount the ESH module but I figured I had no doubt missed some potential for abuse. Limiting the ESH to a Marauder-class ship reduced its potential for "uberness." I would appreciate your thoughts? Des Jardin What I have always thought the exploration profession needed was a reliable way to sell finds through the contracts system. Provide a way to sell what is in effect an enhanced bookmark that provides information on the find through the contract system (though not its location, of course, other than maybe the region). This way the "explorer" cov-ops pilots would have a way to profit from their discoveries if they didn't want to go back later with a different ship themselves.
Isaac Starstriker	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:40:00 - [4] Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 18/08/2008 21:41:43 I'm going to say a really big: NO This is not World of Warcraft. This is not Eve-Solo. This is not a PVE-based game. If you can't find friends to come in a big enough ship, then switch professions. This is like the same damned argument for a solo-mining-Roqual. Get over it that you can't solo everything in this game or just quit. From what I've seen, it shouldn't be that hard for you to find someone in a BC/BS to kill the rats. Free $$ and salvage. We do not need this. Period. --Isaac
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:03:00 - [5] Edited by: Des Jardin on 18/08/2008 22:04:40 Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 18/08/2008 21:41:43 I'm going to say a really big: NO This is not World of Warcraft. This is not Eve-Solo. This is not a PVE-based game. If you can't find friends to come in a big enough ship, then switch professions. This is like the same damned argument for a solo-mining-Roqual. Get over it that you can't solo everything in this game or just quit. From what I've seen, it shouldn't be that hard for you to find someone in a BC/BS to kill the rats. Free $$ and salvage. We do not need this. Period. --Isaac Isaac, I appreicate your point that EVE should not be a "solo everything" game, but I and, I suspect, most pilots that have choosen the exploration profession solo such sites already. This was merely my suggestion to take the exploration/combat ship debate in a different direction. I will look into your reference to the mining-Roqual debate to better understand your argument. Also, while PvP is major asset to the EVE universe, it is not the sole mechanism that drives the game. PvE is clearly a component that many have choosen to pursue. As to your point about gathering others to assist in clearing exploration sites -- agreed, I do that already as well. At the risk of misconstruing your argument against my proposal, it appears that your only points are that EVE should not be a solo game and that CCP should not encourage such activity by making it easier for that activity to take place. Maybe so, but as mentioned above there are a lot of solo activities currently in the game; this suggestion doesn't appear to be unbalancing as to drive the PvPers away from the game. In fact, as noted in a previous response, unattended Marauders could prove to be an excellent source of income. Des Jardin
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.18 23:36:00 - [6] Not realy good to let your marauder floating around ,it is too costly for that. I think the original idea aka a separate ship would be better for this , something which could solo an easy plex or hacking sites + can probe out them fast + easily cross gatecamps.
Re'taka Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2008.08.18 23:48:00 - [7] I have to agree, a solo ship would be better, keep in mind that a lot of these sites appear to be for solo work anyway, as the loot is hardly worth it for the one person, let alone 2 or 3 people, thats not to say plex's like 6/10s should be solo able but stuff like radar and ladar wouldn't be so bad if it was doable in 1 ship.
Zeerover Caldari DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations	Posted - 2008.08.18 23:52:00 - [8] I think the best idea is to amend the Black Ops Battleships - which currently see very limited use compared to their price tag - so that they can use the Covert Ops cloak and get a bonus when using the scanners. This would then become the perfect high-end solo exploration ship.
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.19 09:09:00 - [9] No way in hell would I ever leave a ship in space. Not never- I like to find people's ships. Allowing recons to get scan time bonuses would be a major improvement, though.
Xap Starfire	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:04:00 - [10] How about teamwork? Have one (or more) people in the corp probing and marking sites, and one (or more) people in the corp clearing them?
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:45:00 - [11] Exploration vessel does not need cloaking ability. It could be for example tier-2 battlecruiser based tech 2 hull with combat bonuses mainly where one bonus is switched out for using recon probes.
Morphisat Rakeriku Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Carniflex Exploration vessel does not need cloaking ability. It could be for example tier-2 battlecruiser based tech 2 hull with combat bonuses mainly where one bonus is switched out for using recon probes. I like this idea, simple and to the point :).
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Xap Starfire How about teamwork? Have one (or more) people in the corp probing and marking sites, and one (or more) people in the corp clearing them? Not really fun for one person to be sitting around while the other one works. I've tried it, it's just not workable. People get bored and want to go ratting or PVPing or whatever. Not saying it can't be done, it's just not very well supported by the system; it's awkward.
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Carniflex Exploration vessel does not need cloaking ability. It could be for example tier-2 battlecruiser based tech 2 hull with combat bonuses mainly where one bonus is switched out for using recon probes. I think exploration vessels should be able to cloak for the simple reason that it can take quite a while to find a site and the investment in covert ops is one that the dedicated explorer will make. Recons are the perfect candidate for such updates. To keep them from being OP, maybe only grant the scantime bonus to probes launched with a scan probe launcher vs a recon probe launcher.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.19 18:00:00 - [15] The current switching ships routine is annoying and dumb. Either make a more sensible way to switch ships or build the omni ship the OP wants.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.08.19 18:19:00 - [16] You know what I'd like, which would make more sense? One combat vessel designed for taking these sites out, which can hold the zippy-fast scouting vessel inside. Eject from the big one, you're in the wee one, eject -again- and you're in your pod. Nice and simple! Or, yeah, combine the two. Make it a battleship hull though. Ooh, maybe that's an idea for T2 tier 3 hulls?
Harvash Lonewolf Logistics	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Zeerover I think the best idea is to amend the Black Ops Battleships - which currently see very limited use compared to their price tag - so that they can use the Covert Ops cloak and get a bonus when using the scanners. This would then become the perfect high-end solo exploration ship. This.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:51:00 - [18] Originally by: Harvash Originally by: Zeerover I think the best idea is to amend the Black Ops Battleships - which currently see very limited use compared to their price tag - so that they can use the Covert Ops cloak and get a bonus when using the scanners. This would then become the perfect high-end solo exploration ship. This. Yes. Definitely.
Anig Browl Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.21 02:07:00 - [19] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Originally by: Harvash Originally by: Zeerover I think the best idea is to amend the Black Ops Battleships - which currently see very limited use compared to their price tag - so that they can use the Covert Ops cloak and get a bonus when using the scanners. This would then become the perfect high-end solo exploration ship. This. Yes. Definitely. Quite. Since it's solo, get rid of the jump portal generators and let covert ops ship do their own infiltration.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.08.23 00:32:00 - [20] Definately we need a dedicated exploration vessel, but one that can actually shoot & loot. Currently the only ships that can do that very well are Gallente due to their damage being drone-based, giving them the ability to fit tractor/salvage in highs, AB & codebreaker/hackers in mids, and still support a very fine armor tank in low. THIS is what we need. Based on a BC hull (T2 tier-2 BCs as dedicateds exploration boats?), much like their bigger cousins (i.e. Marauders). --> 4 weapon highslots (+50% to weapons damage), 4x utility slots (tractor/salvager/cloak). --> 5-7 midslots but with very stout penalties to fitting warp interruption devices to limit the ship's PvP ability. --> 5-7 lows for tank. Sensor strength & scanres very low. Highly maneuverable, able to warp while cloaked. Essentially, gimp the ship into the dark ages when it comes to being deployed as a PvP platform, but make it a very, very specialized exploration vessel. Ability to either adjust warp speed (0.5 au/s up to its max), or select a fixed warp-range (5 au). This to enable the creation of mid-warp marks without wasting so much time doing so.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.23 06:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Mister Xerox Definately we need a dedicated exploration vessel, but one that can actually shoot & loot. Currently the only ships that can do that very well are Gallente due to their damage being drone-based, giving them the ability to fit tractor/salvage in highs, AB & codebreaker/hackers in mids, and still support a very fine armor tank in low. THIS is what we need. Based on a BC hull (T2 tier-2 BCs as dedicateds exploration boats?), much like their bigger cousins (i.e. Marauders). --> 4 weapon highslots (+50% to weapons damage), 4x utility slots (tractor/salvager/cloak). --> 5-7 midslots but with very stout penalties to fitting warp interruption devices to limit the ship's PvP ability. --> 5-7 lows for tank. Sensor strength & scanres very low. Highly maneuverable, able to warp while cloaked. Essentially, gimp the ship into the dark ages when it comes to being deployed as a PvP platform, but make it a very, very specialized exploration vessel. Ability to either adjust warp speed (0.5 au/s up to its max), or select a fixed warp-range (5 au). This to enable the creation of mid-warp marks without wasting so much time doing so. I do not think PvE ship needs cloak. Also in my eyes it is problem that PvE and PvP setups are so different that pvp ship faces very low risk compared to pve ship in pvp combat situation. Overall quite good. You would just need also probing bonus as main 'issue' currently is need to switch ships from prober to combat ship to do exploration every time you nail something down.
Slobodanka	Posted - 2008.08.23 11:25:00 - [22] In PvE you mainly need tank, because when you "advance" in PvE you only see bigger blobs of rats (except for lvl5 missions with those cap sucking turrets and citadel torps in 10/10 that can hit just about any ship size in the game; they could probably kill small drones if they wanted to...). So most of the time you're in the room with loads of NPCs killing them off one by one. It doesnt matter if you use speed tank, shiled tank or armor tank, you always need to get through lots of NPC to get to your reward. That said, the bonuses exploration ship would need are: 1. Scan time bonus (like cov ops have; only use cov ops have in pve is scanning down exploration sites, appart from that they are uselles) 2. Good tank 3. Slots for exploration modules (salvager, codebreaker, analyzer, prober) 4. Enough DPS to take down NPC BS spawn. ?5.? enough cargo space for probes, ammo, and exploration loot (cov ops cargo is way to small for set of probes+ good radar drop), maybe separate storage area for probes or something like that.... gas cloud cargo for harvesting ships, etc. Problem is that codebreaker and analyzer are mid slot modules, which quickly rules out shield tanking ships, especially if you want to use MWD or AB on the ship. I'd say this one would have to be from some other faction, not one of empire factions. Maybe from ORE, or even from Sisters (after all they have faction probes in their LP store). Like exhumers come from ORE and are only (apart from mining cruisers and frigate, but they are no match for ORE ships) specialized mining vessels, so maybe we could get a lineup of ships from Sister of Eve... one n00b exploration ship noone would use (like tier 1 mining barge, cant even remember the name :p), then few others to reflect pilot skills. Maybe throw in one gas cloud harvesting ship (those clouds do hit when you harvest them and you need loads of space to collect your "loot"). You could even include salvaging boat in this group as salvaging is done using "exploration" module (I know module came first and exploration second, but lets forget about that for a while :p). After people get used to idea of having dedicated exploration ship give us T2 variants that will be even more uber for exploration. This might also move mission runners from caldari to Sisters and reduce lag a bit... spread the love around :p Care should be taken so this ships can't be used effectively in pvp (like mining barges and exhumers kinda suck for pvp), but they should be sitting ducks either (or maybe they should... barges and exhumers are and while hulk can tank a lot it's still easily killed).
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.23 11:41:00 - [23] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine What I have always thought the exploration profession needed was a reliable way to sell finds through the contracts system. Provide a way to sell what is in effect an enhanced bookmark that provides information on the find through the contract system (though not its location, of course, other than maybe the region). This way the "explorer" cov-ops pilots would have a way to profit from their discoveries if they didn't want to go back later with a different ship themselves. It would be really good if it would be possible to sell the location of exploration sites - in such a way that you can insert bookmarks of EXPLORATION sites in a unique way and don't fool with fake bookmarks. Problems/discussions are: Could/should it be allowed to sell the bookmark multiple times? How does the buyer know if a bookmark was sold several times or not? What to do if the site despawned in the meanwhile but the bookmark is still for sale?
Joe Starbreaker AnTi.	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:41:00 - [24] I kind of like this idea. You'd have to be pretty ballsy to leave your marauder floating in space unattended, which is a good enough balancing factor. This feature could also be useful in fleet PVP, allowing one person with a really expensive, high-skill T2 battleship to be the scout and then return to the fleet for fighting. Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto All piracy is built upon honoring one's word.
Cybele Lanier Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:04:00 - [25] Edited by: Cybele Lanier on 23/08/2008 20:05:16 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine That said, I don't think that CCP intended for exploration to be a solo activity. I think they envisioned a cov-ops pilot being the scout for a gang. Seems like players always expect PvE content in eve to be solo-able though. The problem is, it's far from predictable if you'll find an exploration site in a location everyone can get to, and it might take an hour or more to pin it down. And then there's a chance it'll be too easy to be a challenge, or too hard for even you and buddies to take on. Oh, and that's if you bought the right size of ship, and the site doesn't have special requirements to get in. And if you leave it for another day, it might get looted or despawn by the time your buddies show up. A lot of the time, there's no choice but to solo them. For team ops, level 4 and 5 missions are more reliable. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence."

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