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Chris Sharp
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:48:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Chris Sharp on 19/08/2008 12:48:34
Right now one of my "playing them all" projects is finding the sweetest Minmatar BS for Level 4 Running.
I'd love to fly it "Minmatar Style", but strangely the fastest looking ship in game (Maelstrom) is actually a raven-like bag of stones in a lake of quicksand. Makes me wish to be back in the Hyperion, wich just handels REALLY well. That "Mael is too slow" rant asside, what do you guys suggest as a Minmatar Missioning boat would you suggest?
Note: I love the Artillery for its sound and the looks of a nice Maelstrom Broadside. BUT the tracking is basically so horrible that, combined with the low raw dps, I end up fitting as many cruise as possible to compensate.
I was thinking of a phoon - missiles, ac, drones. But mixing two weapon systems is bad enough, mixing 3 is... horrid.
mael? Too slow for alot of maneuvering and getting AC's to range is a pain.
Tempest is just too weak. Low DPS, low Tank, but handles lovely (same as hyperion).
So... basically: What is the Minmatar way of doing level 4s?
I so far fly:
Amarr - Abaddon and Apoc - both great ships, well actually its the Pulse Lasers.
Caldari - Raven, CNR, Golem - well, not much to say. Missile Spamming Mission Goodness.
Gallente - Domi, Rail-Hyperion, Rail-Mega - they all work, the Hype is the most fun of all Ships
Minmatar.... ???
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Wil Smithx
Minmatar
Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.08.19 12:57:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Wil Smithx on 19/08/2008 13:01:11
You put cruise missiles in to increase your damage...
*facepalm*
I just EFT'd this and noticed that cruise missiles deal 15% less damage than Arty on a mael assuming max skills.
(thats not a lot considering arty work up to about half [thats the end of falloff with EMP, I'm being generous] the range of cruise and don't work too much below 30km)
Then you add 3 gyros (if you hadn't this is your problem) and you do about double the DPS but admitedly not at the same range.
Ok WOW, arty suck...
Edit: just realised I had 3 locus coodinators on the mael fitting by accident, so think of all these arty having about half the optimal range, oh god thats bad... |
Chris Sharp
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:03:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Chris Sharp on 19/08/2008 13:04:18
 Originally by: Wil Smithx
You put cruise missiles in to increase your damage...
Yes
Quote:
I just EFT'd this and noticed that cruise missiles deal 15% less damage than Arty on a mael assuming max skills.
Thing is: EFT does not show what falloff and tracking do to the gun. Also the amount of missions where the rats start out at 50-100km away from you - Cruise do damage all the time until they are in AC range. Artillery stops doing damage once the rats get where they usually are due to tracking.
Its not dps, but more like the dph (damage per hour) were range and tracking REALLY start to matter.
edit:
Quote:
Edit: just realised I had 3 locus coodinators on the mael fitting by accident, so think of all these arty having about half the optimal range, oh god thats bad...
Indeed. |
Deb Dukar
Minmatar
Shin-Ra
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:42:00 -
[4]
for my experience ... Phoon all the way.
the Mael only realy works for me if i kite the mobs. and if u consinder that this ship is by far the slowest matari one, u realy dont want to fly it to the gate after u cleaned up the mess.
anything thats comes in below 20km is just pain in the a$$ to kill.
Phoon on the other side has a quite big dron bay which allows to to carry more then enuff drones for the mission. the ROF bonus on Cruise missiles Projectile is also quite nice. plenty of lowslots for tanking and medslots for painters and webbers help also alot. the phoon realy owns.
i use 4x800mm autos and 4xcruise missiles. only problem are 45km orbiting BS ... 800 wont hit, its slighty out of drone control range and the cruise missiles allone usualy dont do enuff dmg to kill it. evrythign else (even ost of the frigs) are blown to dust when they come closerange |
Baron Primus
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Deb Dukar
for my experience ... Phoon all the way.
the Mael only realy works for me if i kite the mobs. and if u consinder that this ship is by far the slowest matari one, u realy dont want to fly it to the gate after u cleaned up the mess.
anything thats comes in below 20km is just pain in the a$$ to kill.
Phoon on the other side has a quite big dron bay which allows to to carry more then enuff drones for the mission. the ROF bonus on Cruise missiles Projectile is also quite nice. plenty of lowslots for tanking and medslots for painters and webbers help also alot. the phoon realy owns.
i use 4x800mm autos and 4xcruise missiles. only problem are 45km orbiting BS ... 800 wont hit, its slighty out of drone control range and the cruise missiles allone usualy dont do enuff dmg to kill it. evrythign else (even ost of the frigs) are blown to dust when they come closerange
Really? Ive had absolutely no luck hitting anything with 800s.. I mean, on paper they look great but maybe Im missing something.. |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Shadow Company
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:20:00 -
[6]
Maelstrom. 1200mm artillery. 3xGyros. Tracking Enhancers and perhaps a target painter. |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Baron Primus
Originally by: Deb Dukar
for my experience ... Phoon all the way.
the Mael only realy works for me if i kite the mobs. and if u consinder that this ship is by far the slowest matari one, u realy dont want to fly it to the gate after u cleaned up the mess.
anything thats comes in below 20km is just pain in the a$$ to kill.
Phoon on the other side has a quite big dron bay which allows to to carry more then enuff drones for the mission. the ROF bonus on Cruise missiles Projectile is also quite nice. plenty of lowslots for tanking and medslots for painters and webbers help also alot. the phoon realy owns.
i use 4x800mm autos and 4xcruise missiles. only problem are 45km orbiting BS ... 800 wont hit, its slighty out of drone control range and the cruise missiles allone usualy dont do enuff dmg to kill it. evrythign else (even ost of the frigs) are blown to dust when they come closerange
Really? Ive had absolutely no luck hitting anything with 800s.. I mean, on paper they look great but maybe Im missing something..
I know it sounds wrong, but try fitting medium artilleries, maybe along with a web; 650 t2 are probably your best bet for what we're gonna do, altho I like to take 720 (but its noticeably harder to hit tacklerfrigs with it).
Even if those are unbonused you can get the range on them to add some dps when popping the big rats. Also, with a good web (and assuming youre not TD'ed like ****) you can kill even the NPC ceptors in close orbit(with 720s it takes some maneuvering, which can be a pita when youre webbed yourself). Killing incoming small stuff is a breeze anyway, its SO fast, it considerably speeds up the mission time, because its faster than warriors mopping up. But needs more micromanagment and actually requires you to pull properly (which sometimes cant be done).
So in the end, with a web they can hit stuff that 800s wont track and with the right ammo you can add a wee bit dps where 800s cant reach. hey, a wee bit is better than zero.
I read this "medium guns on a lvl4 phoon" a long time ago, it seems to be an old idea. And when I was ****ed off enough by the performance of large turrets on a pve phoon, I tried it, and it seemed to work.
Think about it, cruises are one of the most versatile weapon systems for pve. they have a friggin broad target selection, even on an untackled target. the only GUNS that can hit all the stuff that cruises can, are probably medium longrange turrets (maybe shortrange with t2 ammo if its lasers? i dont know, you amarr guys tell me) combined with a web.
Coming to think of it... I might even start to fit medium lasers on the phoon, for pve, and im not kidding. gotta take a look and compare them to medium artilleries. and I have some cap left, on the mission phoon for stuff like this, i guess  |
Baron Primus
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: P'uck
I know it sounds wrong, but try fitting medium artilleries, maybe along with a web; 650 t2 are probably your best bet for what we're gonna do, altho I like to take 720 (but its noticeably harder to hit tacklerfrigs with it).
Even if those are unbonused you can get the range on them to add some dps when popping the big rats. Also, with a good web (and assuming youre not TD'ed like ****) you can kill even the NPC ceptors in close orbit(with 720s it takes some maneuvering, which can be a pita when youre webbed yourself). Killing incoming small stuff is a breeze anyway, its SO fast, it considerably speeds up the mission time, because its faster than warriors mopping up. But needs more micromanagment and actually requires you to pull properly (which sometimes cant be done).
So in the end, with a web they can hit stuff that 800s wont track and with the right ammo you can add a wee bit dps where 800s cant reach. hey, a wee bit is better than zero.
I read this "medium guns on a lvl4 phoon" a long time ago, it seems to be an old idea. And when I was ****ed off enough by the performance of large turrets on a pve phoon, I tried it, and it seemed to work.
Think about it, cruises are one of the most versatile weapon systems for pve. they have a friggin broad target selection, even on an untackled target. the only GUNS that can hit all the stuff that cruises can, are probably medium longrange turrets (maybe shortrange with t2 ammo if its lasers? i dont know, you amarr guys tell me) combined with a web.
Coming to think of it... I might even start to fit medium lasers on the phoon, for pve, and im not kidding. gotta take a look and compare them to medium artilleries. and I have some cap left, on the mission phoon for stuff like this, i guess
Oh interesting.. But Id assume like, torps and ACs would go together very well  Arty and cruises would work better together? Otherwise youd be like, shooting yourself in the foot by splitting your weps, given your range. |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:47:00 -
[9]
Edited by: P''uck on 19/08/2008 14:49:27
LARGE artilleries dont really track that well You can hit battleships in wide orbit, some stuff thats closing in, and thats about it. Also they have the added benefit of letting you run into fitting problems, probably.
MEDIUM turrets on the other, they blend in. It starts to work. I found the ability to add dps to all possible targets a lot more useful than the ability to add some crap dps to bs targets. |
Deb Dukar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:51:00 -
[10]
dunno why but my 800mm autos are doing a real good job.
usualy i use a tracking puter (tracking speed script) and a webber. works pretty nice. i can start shooting at stuff at 25km and rip most cruisers and even frigates apart. if there is anything untrackable, drones and missiles handle them.
the realy big dronebay and the ROF bonus of the phoon realy make up for the lack of dmg mods.
i guess i give the medium guns a try tonight. oddly enuff my small and medium t2 guns hit for more dmg then my big guns anyway. |
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:58:00 -
[11]
Edited by: P''uck on 19/08/2008 14:58:48
yeah, you see, you need 2 medslots for the larget autos and you cannot add dps to some of the far out bs targets. the med arty can hit everything, using one medslot for support gear. if ccp introduces a falloff script (because using ambit rigs isnt really that useful on a pve phoon), i might say go for the large ACs, again.
And I think one thing that really works in favour of the med arties (over any other medium gun, seeing that you forsake the bonus anyway kinda opens up choices) is the volleydmg thing. yes, dps is lower, but it doesnt matter that much when you can pop incoming small stuff with one shot from 2 turrets per target |
Elhina Novae
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Maelstrom. 1200mm artillery. 3xGyros. Tracking Enhancers and perhaps a target painter.
This. Many in my corp actually use that kinda setup and it works wonders for missionrunning with decent skills |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:06:00 -
[13]
Mael with 1200s or crosstrain. I'm sure P'uck is going on about a phoon, ignore him.  |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:10:00 -
[14]
hey, if i want to stick to minmatar, thats the best option i got when grindtime hits! |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: P'uck
hey, if i want to stick to minmatar, thats the best option i got when grindtime hits!
If you have the appropriate skills to mission in a phoon, go for it.  |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:22:00 -
[16]
well, since I'm ignoring the large guns, I actually have, I guess.
Heavy drones V is missing, cruise V are missing, but I can live with that.
I think with either cruise or h.drones at V I'm about even in damage with a fully skilled (!) maelstrom.
The pro is: I can apply that damage a lot better than a mael
The con: I can't tank for shit (maybe 200dps or so), but i still prefer it
another thing is: sometimes you just benefit from an afterburner, which is really useful on a phoon but completely wasted on a maelstrom, imho.
well, one well placed nerf might change everything, tho |
Flapjack Peso
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Posted - 2008.08.19 16:49:00 -
[17]
I am in a Maelstrom now running level 4's Use 8 1200mm's and pop on two t2 tracking enhancers and two gyrostabs. Your tank will suffer but I stay about 40-70 km out anyway so only missile reliably hit me. The enhancers let you hit even the t2 frigs at about 20-25km as long as the transversal speed isn't too extreme, and cruisers at about 20ish. Anything with a higher sig radius is an easy target as any range.
I am a relative noob to BS piloting and level 4s in general, but I have soloed blockade and WC with this ship without having to run ever. so I think it works pretty good. |
FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.08.19 17:01:00 -
[18]
I fly all four races (on four different accounts), so I have some basis for comparing them and knowing what works for PvE. I tried everything the Minmatar BS line has to offer for PvE - except the Vargur, which I can fly tonight (plus seven days to get Marauders IV). Until then, the Typhoon is my ship of choice - it works well in practice as well as theory - but requires a lot of skills.
I've also EFT-warriored all of them extensively. On paper, the Vargur is the best ship, with the Typhoon as next in line, assuming you have excellent drone, missile and gunnery skills. The tracking is nice on the Vargur. The Maelstrom is your best bet if you want to focus on just using guns and don't want a Vargur. The Fleet Issue Tempest is sad - it lacks the CPU to fit a proper shield tank and really needs a 7th turret slot (and some more grid/cpu). After flying all of the above, I decided to train for the Vargur. If you want the setups I settled on to make my determination, just let me know. |
Arestan
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Posted - 2008.08.19 17:30:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Arestan on 19/08/2008 17:30:43
Quite simple really:
Minmatar missions with lots of Macharels flying around = 800 Scouts, as they will all come in and hug you like it's Valentine's day.
Everything else, Arty all the way.
Mael rocks  |
1200 baud
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Posted - 2008.08.19 17:41:00 -
[20]
I'm split between a Mael and a Machariel. Both are about the same for me. I go for a very small tank, lots of gank approach to missions. I'm using 4 gyros, 2 tracking comps (1 in the mach due to bonuses). 1200's in the Mach, 1400's in the Mael due to grid constraints. Both with Hammerhead II's and Rep Fleet Phased Plasma.
Can't see much difference in time to complete missions. Both can do everything without warpout (usually, unless I over agro in the Mach). The Mael is best where you don't have to move far to get the next gate, the Mach shines vs Angels (can keep range better).
16 days to a Vargur, so I can't comment yet, but it looks promissing.
Summary: Lg arty with lots of gyros and tracking = quick mission running. |
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Chris Sharp
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Posted - 2008.08.19 19:12:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Chris Sharp on 19/08/2008 19:13:33
Hm... actually this thread confirms my fear: Minmatar actually seems to need its long range (and thus lower dps) weapon system for missioning. I was hoping for getting the optimal of AC's maybe out to at least 25km or something, but I guess that is hopeless.
It is possible to get a Raven to spew T2 Javelins at 58km (eft says 6x but thats a lie). Works GREAT in Missions as it simply obliterates other battleships.
The Abaddon I use is just plain "Eat my Scorcheous Righteousness!". Fly there and blast everyone and their monther back 5 gernerations of their ancestors. Yes, I do think Tech II Pulse is basically the sweetest BS weapon there is right now.
And Gallente have to use their long range weapon, true, but using AM Charges those things (350mm) work with nice damage on ok ranges. Nothing compared to the other two, tho.
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Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.08.19 20:31:00 -
[22]
Personally I fly a Maelstrom for level 4s with 8 1400mm Howitzer IIs. I just set keep range, and kill everything. Anything that gets too close for the guns gets droned to death. It also amuses me that I can instapop cruisers, and some mission BCs.
Anyway that's my 0.02 isk.
Akkarin
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Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.08.19 20:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Deb Dukar
i use 4x800mm autos and 4xcruise missiles. only problem are 45km orbiting BS ... 800 wont hit, its slighty out of drone control range and the cruise missiles allone usualy dont do enuff dmg to kill it.
You may be interested in this skill: Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing Yes, it works for all drones, not just e-war drones. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Akkarin Pagan
Personally I fly a Maelstrom for level 4s with 8 1400mm Howitzer IIs. I just set keep range, and kill everything. Anything that gets too close for the guns gets droned to death. It also amuses me that I can instapop cruisers, and some mission BCs.
Agreed. I haven't done alot of mission running but recently I ratted back my sec status and ran some to build my Minmatar standings for FW. I was very impressed with how fast the Maelstrom runs missions - it is a very good mission running ship so long as you understand transversal and what range you can hit smaller ships at.
[Maelstrom, mission *****]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Power Diagnostic System II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
100MN Afterburner II
Large Shield Booster II
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x5
818 dps
Tanks 580 versus Serpentis
Tbh I never really used the Ogres and ended up going for more medium drones. I also tended to drop one of the tank mods for a Tracking Computer (tracking script) for all but the toughest missions.
I timed myself on this setup and in 4 hours of missions running averaged around 40m (including lp's) an hour after paying for faction ammo. With practice I imagine you can get more though it depends on the missons you get and where you are running them. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:10:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 21:12:10
Originally by: Yakov Draken
[Maelstrom, mission *****]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Power Diagnostic System II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
100MN Afterburner II
Large Shield Booster II
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x5
Can you go look at your combat logs and check your real DPS?
-Liang
Ed: Not trying to be an ass either. You could just as easily take a section of time that you know you're firing at a target. I find that a Sentry Domi finishes missions alot faster than a maxed out pimped Maelstrom. |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Deb Dukar
i use 4x800mm autos and 4xcruise missiles. only problem are 45km orbiting BS ... 800 wont hit, its slighty out of drone control range and the cruise missiles allone usualy dont do enuff dmg to kill it. evrythign else (even ost of the frigs) are blown to dust when they come closerange
I used to run 4xD425 autos and 4x cruises. I found the higher tracking of the lower tier ACs offset the lower damage.
My ammo bills were horrendous though |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:49:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Can you go look at your combat logs and check your real DPS?
You want me to search back through pages and pages of combat logs? 
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Not trying to be an ass either. You could just as easily take a section of time that you know you're firing at a target. I find that a Sentry Domi finishes missions alot faster than a maxed out pimped Maelstrom.
I have used this Maelstrom alongside a mate in a CNR and then his Golem and we fired at different targets to compare kill speeds. The Maelstrom performed very well in comparision. It seemed the fastest for killing BS's so it comes down to how quick you are at killing the cruisers and BC's at around 50k. It is mad rush of locking activating and re-activating as things go pop, pop, pop.
I haven't used it alongside a sentry Domi so it is hard to compare. That said I very much doubt the sentry Domi is alot faster because for most missions you are locking and killing things in a mad rush.
Btw damage numbers are for me with implants not all Lvl 5 which is lower. Do you have maxed damage skills for a Maelstrom? I've got all but Large Art spec at 5 including drone skills. Did you fit an AB on your Maelstrom? Also remember I'm only fitting a 4 slot tank alot of the time to fit a TC for better tracking.
In terms of isk per hour I should note I don't loot or salvage. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.19 21:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
You want me to search back through pages and pages of combat logs?
No, I'd actually write a script to do it. Computers are a great thing yaknow? 
Quote:
I have used this Maelstrom alongside a mate in a CNR and then his Golem and we fired at different targets to compare kill speeds. The Maelstrom performed very well in comparision. It seemed the fastest for killing BS's so it comes down to how quick you are at killing the cruisers and BC's at around 50k. It is mad rush of locking activating and re-activating as things go pop, pop, pop.
So what happens on the missions where ships get too close or start off too close? :)
Quote:
I haven't used it alongside a sentry Domi so it is hard to compare. That said I very much doubt the sentry Domi is alot faster because for most missions you are locking and killing things in a mad rush.
The domi doesn't have to lock. :)
Quote:
Btw damage numbers are for me with implants not all Lvl 5 which is lower. Do you have maxed damage skills for a Maelstrom? I've got all but Large Art spec at 5 including drone skills. Did you fit an AB on your Maelstrom? Also remember I'm only fitting a 4 slot tank alot of the time to fit a TC for better tracking.
Yes, I have pretty close to max skills on the Maelstrom (Drone Int 4, Lg Arty Spec 4).
-Liang |
Chris Sharp
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Posted - 2008.08.19 22:10:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Chris Sharp on 19/08/2008 22:11:39
Ok, so it is possible to get the tracking of Artillery to a value where they are usable in Ranges of 20km? (most cruisers and up to several BS, also some pesky small drones)
Because thats what I don't see. I do see however my Abaddon reaching out to ~45km OPTIMAL with MegaPulse IIs and my CNR throwing Torps at ~60km Range. Blasters low Range is imho made up by the Quite well performance of Rails.
But what the hell do Minmatar get? 20-50 km is the Range needed for Mission-Running, imho. Good damage in these ranges will kill the battleships and dozens of cruisers. And somehow... for some weird reason (I guess its because of "fighting in falloff") my AC Attempts just tickle those ships, compared to the others. Cummon 350mm Rails with CNAM do more dps in the "prime zone" then the ACs.
So... If all you people who mission alot in Minmatar ships say "Artillery" - do you get the tracking to be viable at 20km range on a cruiser?
*edit*
BTW - I find it sad, that the minmatar BS's - especially the mael - are so slow. Being fast would at least make the fighting style be Minmatarr... lots of maneuvering and such. But the Mael and moving are seperated by a collapsed wormhole! |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 22:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Yakov Draken
You want me to search back through pages and pages of combat logs?
No, I'd actually write a script to do it. Computers are a great thing yaknow?
Wow you are smacking me because I don't write scripts to run searches.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Yakov Draken
I have used this Maelstrom alongside a mate in a CNR and then his Golem and we fired at different targets to compare kill speeds. The Maelstrom performed very well in comparision. It seemed the fastest for killing BS's so it comes down to how quick you are at killing the cruisers and BC's at around 50k. It is mad rush of locking activating and re-activating as things go pop, pop, pop.
So what happens on the missions where ships get too close or start off too close? :)
Drones have to do the job and this can slow things down.
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.08.19 22:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Chris Sharp
So... If all you people who mission alot in Minmatar ships say "Artillery" - do you get the tracking to be viable at 20km range on a cruiser?
I haven't run alot of missions but in my experiance once a cruiser gets to 20k's it is well inside my tracking and it is up to drones to do the job. The lkey is to kill the cruisers and BC's before they get close and if you can't it can take some extra time.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.19 22:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Wow you are smacking me because I don't write scripts to run searches.
No, I'm smacking at you because you believe that you have to manually go back and look at hundreds of thousands of lines of log files to do something very simple.
You ignore that there are applications which already do this and are freely available.
Quote:
Drones have to do the job and this can slow things down.
Yep, to about 150 DPS worth. My Sentries/Ogres and 350 rails are still hitting. :)
-Liang |
Chris Sharp
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:04:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
The lkey is to kill the cruisers and BC's before they get close and if you can't it can take some extra time.
Well, considering the amount of missions that drop me 15-25km from multiple cruisers, or the cruisers 15-25 from me, killing them before they orbit proved to be rather impossible. Maybe one or two.
And having your drones take care of 4 elite cruisers going circles can be VERY time-consuming, especially if all frigates have to be dealt with by the drones as well.
Cruisers... 20km... maybe the medium artillery isnt such a bad idea. XD |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:07:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 23:07:22
Originally by: Chris Sharp
Well, considering the amount of missions that drop me 15-25km from multiple cruisers, or the cruisers 15-25 from me, killing them before they orbit proved to be rather impossible. Maybe one or two.
And having your drones take care of 4 elite cruisers going circles can be VERY time-consuming, especially if all frigates have to be dealt with by the drones as well.
Cruisers... 20km... maybe the medium artillery isnt such a bad idea. XD
Look to the Claymore (it's cheap.. lol) or Sleip for your needs here (Med arties). I know that there are good mission claymore/sleip fits, but I don't know any off the top of my head.
-Liang
Ed: unless you meant on the phoon. I've heard of that being successful, oddly. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:12:00 -
[35]
Clay/sleipnir have the DPS of a pea shooter honestly. I've tried both missioning, and the result was complete sadness and immediate sale. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:14:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 23:14:32
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Clay/sleipnir have the DPS of a pea shooter honestly. I've tried both missioning, and the result was complete sadness and immediate sale.
Hmmm, I've known people that swore by them... but then those same people swore by the Tempest. Really good guy though. He gave me my real start to understanding how to fly Minnie.
(I was already a successful Gallente/Caldari pilot).
-Liang
Ed: Also, Matt if any of you read this, I still <3 U guys. :p |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:20:00 -
[37]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 19/08/2008 23:20:10
My mate swears (swore... he's off busy in RL matters) upon his rail astarte for missions. He's coincidentally also the same guy who brought me into minmatar and taught me how to fly them. Honestly as far as mission ships go, it's really all about perspective.
To someone who's flown nothing but minmatar in missions, the command ships would seem like a good choice. To someone who knows the joys of an 800 DPS abaddon, flying a command ship seems stupid at best.
Arties with EMP on my sleipnir gave me an optimal of about 20km, which is peanuts, coupled with bad bad dps. Autos... well, ammo consumption, range, and 38.5%. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Chris Sharp
considering the amount of missions that drop me 15-25km from multiple cruisers, or the cruisers 15-25 from me, killing them before they orbit proved to be rather impossible. Maybe one or two.
And having your drones take care of 4 elite cruisers going circles can be VERY time-consuming, especially if all frigates have to be dealt with by the drones as well.
I haven't run alot of missions but I didn't find the cruisers/elite cruisers too big a deal most of the time.
Are you fitting a AB? My approach was to AB away from targets which helps keep range and cuts down transversal. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:22:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Are you fitting a AB? My approach was to AB away from targets which helps keep range and cuts down transversal.
I found that AB'ing actually increased my mission times rather dramatically. I may try it again since I've got better skills than last time I tried it.
-Liang |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:27:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Yakov Draken on 19/08/2008 23:27:02
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Wow you are smacking me because I don't write scripts to run searches.
No, I'm smacking at you because you believe that you have to manually go back and look at hundreds of thousands of lines of log files to do something very simple
I don't write scripts Liang. 20 years ago when I found programming interesting I did write some simple stuff but that was a long time ago and tbh it is just not my cup of tea. Different people - different skills. Obviously you are comfortable with scripting and good on you. That you think me not being competent with scripts is worthy of smack is still pretty funny. |
|
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:28:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 23:30:26
Originally by: Yakov Draken
I don't write scripts Liang. 20 years ago when I found programming interesting I did write some simple stuff but that was a long time ago and tbh it is just not my cup of tea. Different people - different skills. Obviously you are comfortable with scripting and good on you. That you think me not being competent with scripts is worthy of smack is still pretty funny.
No, I think you not being willing to use one of the log analyzers is pretty damn silly though.
-Liang
Ed: Freely and widely available, I might add.
Ed2: OH I GET IT! You don't want to show us what damage you're really doing. How about this: Run 5-6 missions tonight and record your times on them. Post them here. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:32:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I found that AB'ing actually increased my mission times rather dramatically. I may try it again since I've got better skills than last time I tried it.
Tbh ABing is fundamental to how I used the Maelstrom. I don't think it would work very well without as the AB provides you most of your tank and its role in keeping range/cutting down transversal is crucial. Sure you have to AB to the next Mission gate but you know that in advance so you head there before you have finished off everything.
I'm not saying the Maelstrom is the best mission running boat - I really don't have much experiance with missions. I'm sure the sentry drone Domi is incredibly convenient and alot less fiddly than the Mael but Maelstrom seemed a good mission running boat when I tried it. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:34:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Tbh ABing is fundamental to how I used the Maelstrom. I don't think it would work very well without as the AB provides you most of your tank and its role in keeping range/cutting down transversal is crucial. Sure you have to AB to the next Mission gate but you know that in advance so you head there before you have finished off everything.
I'm not saying the Maelstrom is the best mission running boat - I really don't have much experiance with missions. I'm sure the sentry drone Domi is incredibly convenient and alot less fiddly than the Mael but Maelstrom seemed a good mission running boat when I tried it.
There's only a couple of L4 missions where you actually have to travel to a gate... in most of them you actually land right on top of the next gate. This is what makes the Sentry domi so incredibly nice. :)
-Liang |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
No, I think you not being willing to use one of the log analyzers is pretty damn silly though..
I'm not unwilling to use them I just never have becaue I didn't even know there were log analysers. I'm sure you will find this even more worthy of smack which again makes me laugh. I have no problem with the fact that there is still much about Eve which I do not know. What I'm strongest on is small gang pvp experiance, gang setups, and trading. Much of the rest of Eve I know little about.
If you weren't determined to be rude to me you might just say "hey do you should try a log analyser - you can get it here. When you next run some missions let me know the results." I would have said something like "log analysers - that sounds pretty cool. Thanks."
To date the best way I have had of judging mission running fits, which I admit I haven't done alot, has been a per hour isk calc which is fairly rough as some missions are isk spinner while some suck. I would note that Emolgranian seems a fantastic place to run misison as almost all the mission are in the same system.
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
There's only a couple of L4 missions where you actually have to travel to a gate... in most of them you actually land right on top of the next gate. This is what makes the Sentry domi so incredibly nice. :)
I dunnno - like I say I haven't done alot of missions but Minmatar missions seem to require more travel. My mate who runs them in a CNR/Golem complained to me about this.
What I was actually refering to was that even if you land on top of the gate you still have to get back to it after ABing away for to maintain range for tanking and tracking. It is one of the drawbacks of artillery. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:48:00 -
[46]
BTW, you're getting so much flack about the Maelstrom because you claim:
- It is a "very good" mission runner (#24)
- It directly competes with the Golem/CNR as the top end notch mission runner (#27)
- Everything pops as soon as you lock them. (#27)
- You "very much doubt" that the Sentry domi is any faster because you're so full of pwnsauce (#27)
- "I pwn with the Mael ur skills must suck or u must suck if u dont" style arguments (see post #24/27)
- But you don't know anything about missions or mission running (every post).
I agree with the first statement: the Maelstrom is a solid Minnie noob's mission runner. The Phoon requires way more skills.
Oh, and get over the damn log thing. I don't even care anymore... I'll bust out my pimped Mael and look at them myself. Hell, you even quote me as telling you I was merely curious and not trying to be an ass. Whatever.
-Liang |
Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 23:55:00 -
[47]
"sweetest" BS: Machariel with 1200mm T2, shield tanking
best tank, good overall: Maelstrom, 1200mm T2
alternative for armor tanking missions (Sansha etc.): Typhoon
best overall choice: Raven
T2 ACs look reasonable for many Angel missions, but then again if you actually measure the time it takes the cost involved etc., a Drake is a better choice because it gets full DPS from Cruisers up at 60Km (HML + Drones)...
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 00:22:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Yakov Draken on 20/08/2008 00:25:09
Originally by: Liang Nuren
BTW, you're getting so much flack about the Maelstrom because you claim:
- It is a "very good" mission runner (#24)
Which you agree with.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- It directly competes with the Golem/CNR as the top end notch mission runner (#27)
I said it compared very well because you see I hadn't expected it to compare at all.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Everything pops as soon as you lock them. (#27))
Err - no thats the cruisers. Well they do.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- - You "very much doubt" that the Sentry domi is any faster because you're so full of pwnsauce (#27))
- i said I don't think the sentry Domi is alot faster.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- But you don't know anything about missions or mission running (every post).)
Your ability to exagerate is truly awesome.
I said I don't know much about mission running. To someone not determined to attack me this is indicating that I'm aware that my experiance is based on a small number of tests thus it shouldn't be given much weight.
I summarized my view as follows:
"I'm not saying the Maelstrom is the best mission running boat - I really don't have much experiance with missions. I'm sure the sentry drone Domi is incredibly convenient and alot less fiddly than the Mael but Maelstrom seemed a good mission running boat when I tried it."
Did you even read this?
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Amraphel
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 00:58:00 -
[49]
I guess I'll add my 2isk to this, since I run lvl4s exclusively in an arty Mael. Here's the relatively cheap fit I use (angel specific in this example):
[Maelstrom, Standard Mission Setup]
Power Diagnostic System II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Explosion Dampening Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Invulnerability Field II
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x1
Hammerhead II x5
My gun skills are not top notch (mainly 4s with a few 5s) but the DPS is enough to handle all lvl4s with ease, and it's overtanked for 90% of the missions, I hardly ever touch the booster (missions vs. Sansha being the exception). In fact, I find myself lately replacing the invII with a tracking comp just to give the booster a workout every once in a while. I think it's well established that it isn't the most efficient mission ship, but the OP already specified Minmatar BS, so he isn't looking for that.
Now to specifically address a few points:
1. Arty tracking
Yes, large arty tracking is abysmal. So control the transversal! Move out at range (20km+), manually pilot to fly parallel to your target (oh, how I wish there was a "fly parallel to target" button!) and adjust speed to match. This will sometimes mean you're flying for a while being shot at without shooting back, but that's what tank is for. If it's just frigs and cruisers, ignore them and get into position for the next group (or move towards the next gate) while your drones chew on them. I have mediocre drone skills, but they still kill everything less than elite BCs eventually.
As an addendum to this for those complaining that things get too close too fast, don't wait for things to get in optimal before shooting, and don't shoot the large stuff first. Ping a group at 80+km, give them a few seconds for them to start MWDing towards your position, and then start 1-shotting frigs and cruisers. The limiting factor is going to be how fast you can lock them (I suggest training up for max locked targets). I usually switch to the BS rats when they get within optimal + 1/4 falloff and let the drones deal with any small stuff that might have made it through.
2. Speed
Yes, the Mael handles like a pregnant cow. So use that AB, it's got plenty of cap! With a RF AB, average nav skills, and a cheap speed implant (+5% from Zor's in 8th) I can get it up to 344m/s tops, which is faster than all BS rats I've encountered, and faster than most BC rats. It's also fast enough that if you start in the middle of a mixed spawn (BS,BC,frigs) you can sic the drones on the little stuff, point yourself perpendicular to the warp-in plane, hit the AB, and get 20+km from the BS before the next ice age. The perpendicular direction is so you can set up your next attack against the other groups without having to do much maneuvering after dispatching the current targets.
3. DPS
It's not quite flogging with a wet noodle, but it's close. The thing is, at 50+Km, so is the rat DPS most of the time (missile spewing excepted). So you can afford to skimp on the tank and add more gank. The above setup works well enough for me to run most missions without having to pay much attention (reading boards, chatting in channels, doing work, etc). However, one could trim the fat a bit and add more damage, depending on the mission. And the damage/hit is pretty nice considering the range. To me at least, the artillery "feels" right -- slow moving, long range, big punch, low rate of fire. I'm not saying it doesn't need a boost to be competitive with other forms of damage delivery (I'll let those with a penchant for number crunching argue that one) but from a flavour perspective I think they got it right.
(contd. next post, stupid character limit!)
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Amraphel
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 01:01:00 -
[50]
4. Tank
Nobody's actually complained about the tank, and for good reason, it has a solid one (for PvE). But I see plenty of people suggesting perma-tanks or LSB+SBA combos, and I honestly wonder why anybody would do that on a Mael. When you need an active tank, you need a lot of it fast to deal with the original incoming DPS upon entering a heavy room. A perma-tank that can handle that is overkill for the vast majority of the time you're spending in missions, and one that can't is a useless tank when you need it most. As for LSB+SBA combo, the Mael already has a built in bonus to boosting, so why not move up to an XL and free up a slot for a rat specific hardner? This is an honest question by the way, there might be legitimate reasons to go the LSB+SBA route that I'm missing. If so, please enlighten me.
I guess this turned more into an arty Mael rant than a direct answer to the OPs question, and I apologize for that. But I think many people try to use large artillery in ways it wasn't designed for rather than understanding it's drawbacks and finding ways to work around it. Of all the ships, I think it shines the most (intrinsic problems notwithstanding) on the Maelstrom. It's not a very efficient use of time when running missions, since you have to slowboat out to a good range, and you don't do as much DPS, and sometimes you have to wait for drones to finish up stuff that's too close or too fast. But popping frigs and cruisers with one shell at 70+km is very satisfying. That's what artillery is about!
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 01:09:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Your ability to exagerate is truly awesome.
I find your ability to back down awesome.
Quote:
I said I don't know much about mission running. To someone not determined to attack me this is indicating that I'm aware that my experiance is based on a small number of tests thus it shouldn't be given much weight.
So what's wrong with questioning your claims if you admit that you don't know anything about missions?
Quote:
I summarized my view as follows:
"I'm not saying the Maelstrom is the best mission running boat - I really don't have much experiance with missions. I'm sure the sentry drone Domi is incredibly convenient and alot less fiddly than the Mael but Maelstrom seemed a good mission running boat when I tried it."
Did you even read this?
Yes, and it's much more reasonable. Now, since I have run lots of missions (using a pimped Mael, Domi, and Raven), I'll just put forward that my experience is that a Raven kicks the Mael's ass... let alone a CNR/Domi.
-Liang |
Rhaegor Stormborn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 02:53:00 -
[52]
This setup lets me alt-tab and read forums or watch TV while mission running. It probably doesn't clear a level 4 as quickly as a Raven or a Dominix would, but it works fine for a lazy mission runner who just wants to earn some isk when he can't commit to PvP gangs.
[Typhoon, Level 4 Missions]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet Fusion L
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Devastator Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Devastator Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Devastator Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Devastator Cruise Missile
Ancillary Current Router I
Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Berserker II x5
Valkyrie II x5
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halp me
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.08.20 02:59:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Wil Smithx
Edited by: Wil Smithx on 19/08/2008 13:01:11
You put cruise missiles in to increase your damage...
*facepalm*
I just EFT'd this and noticed that cruise missiles deal 15% less damage than Arty on a mael assuming max skills.
(thats not a lot considering arty work up to about half [thats the end of falloff with EMP, I'm being generous] the range of cruise and don't work too much below 30km)
Then you add 3 gyros (if you hadn't this is your problem) and you do about double the DPS but admitedly not at the same range.
Ok WOW, arty suck...
Edit: just realised I had 3 locus coodinators on the mael fitting by accident, so think of all these arty having about half the optimal range, oh god thats bad...
you are also an eft idiot and dont realize that your magic program does not take into account real game issues such as tracking transversal and target size, let alone how easy it is to match a missile to the best dmg type on rats. So although his tactic may have resulted in less dps according to your eft gods it still probably signifigantly decreased his time to kill rats of most sizes.
btw at the op, I am a minmatar pilot for most things to, however when it comes to missions fly a cnr with a single large arty left in the last high slot, lets you get the minny flavor and still be effective....
sorry I cant be more help then that, if you really wanna mess about try a vargur and use ac but I havent heard to many good things about that ship sadly :/ |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 03:11:00 -
[54]
Phoon, because it can fit 4 torps and 125m^3 of drones.
I mean damn, artillery suck. |
Marco P
Really Nice And Laidback Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 05:04:00 -
[55]
Amraphel - Totally agree with your analysis. Have you tried dropping one rat specific hardener for a SBA? I *think* that it is better. Also I use 1200s for better tracking and better real world dps, because of that tracking. However I have a DC II in the lows instead of the TE and have found, like you, that the Mael is overtanked - so maybe 1400s with a TE would work better.
I like running missions in the Mael with arty and XL SB, I am sure it is not as fast as a Raven, but it requires more control, thus negating the boredom factor of lvl 4s to a certain extent. If you want easy mode get a Raven, if you want more interaction get a Mael and manage the tank and transversal. One of the main issues is that it runs many lvl 4s very easily (without even using the SB in Mordus headhunters for example) so it catches me out every now and again when I don't move, forget my hardeners and use the SB late!
My only dislike with the Mael is agility and speed, so I think I may get a Vargur if I continue to run lvl 4s. |
Jodie Amille
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 05:56:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/08/2008 23:07:22
Originally by: Chris Sharp
Well, considering the amount of missions that drop me 15-25km from multiple cruisers, or the cruisers 15-25 from me, killing them before they orbit proved to be rather impossible. Maybe one or two.
And having your drones take care of 4 elite cruisers going circles can be VERY time-consuming, especially if all frigates have to be dealt with by the drones as well.
Cruisers... 20km... maybe the medium artillery isnt such a bad idea. XD
Look to the Claymore (it's cheap.. lol) or Sleip for your needs here (Med arties). I know that there are good mission claymore/sleip fits, but I don't know any off the top of my head.
-Liang
Ed: unless you meant on the phoon. I've heard of that being successful, oddly.
For Angel missions, a Sleipnir is alright as far as Minmatar ships go. Certainly no slower than a Mael anyways and a lot for fun. For missions vs stuff that orbits at longer range, then I wouldn't bother with it, honestly.
Try:
7x 220mm AC II
1x HML II
AB II
Large Shield Booster II
3x Hardeners
2-3 PDS II
2-3 Gyro II
2x CCC rigs
If you really want to use arties(650 II's), maybe drop the AB for a SBA or another hardener. |
Thirzarr
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 08:08:00 -
[57]
Actually the sleip seems to be about the best minmatar level 4 boat I could find so far.
Should it really be that the Minmatar race has some problem? And Since trying on a Machariel I am fairly shure that speeding up the Minmatar Battleships would not solve the whole thing.
For large artillery you have to fly to get into a proper range. When you got there you do artillery dps.
For large blasters you have to ... you do blaster dps.
If a ship/race/weapon system is based on the "kiting" way of fighting, why the hell is the prime ship (Mael) so utterly slow? Same question arises on the Rokh: range bonus is only great for blasters, but for those you have to MOVE! Something is utterly wrong with those tho ships, and the Mael gets the shaft by large artillery being... well... manure. |
monomatic
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 08:15:00 -
[58]
Like many people said..for minnie, mael is the less skill intensive mission platform...shield and projectile would do good with gyros...
on the other hand i prefer typhoon..
shame on me i skilled for armor tank, no place left for gyros damnit :)
[Typhoon, mission- cap stable ]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Ogre I x5
Hammerhead I x5
you can play with the resist plates according to the mission type...or place 4x1200mms...i prefer drone control range and volley of 3x1400s..and in time t2 drones is a must :p
damn tempest is not even an option..when compared with mael or phoon..
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aidem
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 08:28:00 -
[59]
Just to check, you are doing the minmatar arty mission style correctly aren't you?
Fit an TII AB, don't engage immediately, spin and align for a celestial that results in a straight line from NPC cluster, through you to celestial. Get some range, then open up on an inty, just one shot mind. The NPC sub bunch will aggro, Burn away and pick off inties as they bloom with mwd towards you. They should go down in a volley of 1200 mael fire each. Then basically pick off the npc's according to the speed they close on you.
4 out of 5 times you won't need to turn on your tank, if the odd intie gets to you just drone it to death with a wing of TII lights and carry on hitting the bigger damage guys...
Flying minmatar in mission is so very different to flying say caldari. |
Lubomir Penev
interimo
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 08:30:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Deb Dukar
i use 4x800mm autos and 4xcruise missiles. only problem are 45km orbiting BS ... 800 wont hit, its slighty out of drone control range
Train Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing really. 53km drone range with the skill at 3. |
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Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 08:35:00 -
[61]
An AC sleipnir would require about 15K ammo for an AE mission, it also has less DPS than a Drake at 15+ Km (assuming T1 ammo; 24Km for Barrage).
It's fun to try for 2-3 missions, but not a viable mission runner by any means.
My T2 fitted NH does 366 explosive DPS (still working on skills) at max. Drone Control range (299 without Drones at 73Km) while sporting a cap stable 564 DPS passive tank. With (cheap) Fury missiles it does 415 explosive DPS at 35Km, so it takes down BS fast. It also has many pimping options if you were inclined to spend a lot of ISK to become a juicy target for suicide gankers (CN Launchers, BCS, Invul field = 15% more DPS, 25% more tank).
It's no competition really... It's fun to fly Minmatar ships for RP reasons, but if you just want to earn some ISK with L4's, it's a waste of time. Just invest the 6 weeks or so in Caldari Cruiser 5 and Heavy Missiles 5 and stop worrying.
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Chris Sharp
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Posted - 2008.08.20 08:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Lazuran
It's fun to try for 2-3 missions, but not a viable mission runner by any means.
...
It's no competition really... It's fun to fly Minmatar ships for RP reasons, but if you just want to earn some ISK with L4's, it's a waste of time.
Ok, so one could actually call this unbalanced pve wise. Ok, does not make a lot of sense, but given a certain amount of effort any race should have some way to fly one of their ships to be a really nice mission runner.
Caldari - Raven CNR Golem Nighthawk
Gallente - Dominix Ishtar Kronos
Amarr - Abaddon, Apocalypse, Paladin
Minmatar - ? (none due to the lack of a proper weapon?)
I have noticed one thing while trying to get any amount of serious dps to 20-35km: Those "Large Projectiles are broken" Threads are basically right. The most important damage range for BS sized ships is 20-55km. Thats where the mission rats are that take a while to be killed by drones.
1. This range is exactly the "bad range" for all large projectiles.
Its above the 1x falloff for AC and below the tracking of artillery.
I'll now go and fiddle with the maelstrom. Yeah, I know, still thinking "there has GOT to be a way to make this awesome looking ship able to do proper mission running. Maybe fitting lasers? fitting Railguns? Mixing AC and Artillery? hm... Artillery and Cruise like a phoon? I need to play with the eft a little, I guess. Can't do it all ingame. (Although EFT does not really reflect stuff like tracking and falloff properly. And if you are talking projectiles, thats VERY fundamental, imho.
Thanks for the lively discussion.
*stands at "every race needs at least one good mission ship (that includes weapons)"* |
Mkhai Bastion
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.20 11:07:00 -
[63]
Reading debates about Minmatar makes one really enjoy the well deserved underdog status. It is what has kept me from running off and flying a raven clone ship like...everyone in eve I guess. I went as far as training up to a drake from my hurricane. Yes it was much easier, but was rather bland to use. This is my general impression of missile ships to this point. I sold the drake and "struggled" on with my Cane.
I will continue to buy Minmatar and pray to the gods (ccp) that Minmatar get a blessing some day. |
Artimus Mousimus
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.20 13:36:00 -
[64]
use the mael
go with T2 Art's 3 gyros 1 tracking enhancer and target painter drones |
Deb Dukar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:17:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Originally by: Deb Dukar
i use 4x800mm autos and 4xcruise missiles. only problem are 45km orbiting BS ... 800 wont hit, its slighty out of drone control range and the cruise missiles allone usualy dont do enuff dmg to kill it.
You may be interested in this skill: Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing Yes, it works for all drones, not just e-war drones.
for real?
dang i knew it ... was just to lazy to test it out. i've trained lvl1 lately and just began to wonder why my drones where fighting a target which was 47km away.
wohoo, problem solved. phoon for missis then ^^ |
Chris Sharp
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Posted - 2008.08.20 19:47:00 -
[66]
Trying a Mael with 1200s, 2x tracking rigs, 3 gyros and a tracking enhancer now.
It does hit the targets, but the damage is VERY lol. Even with them 3 gyros. :/ |
Lili Lu
Victory Not Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.08.20 20:08:00 -
[67]
Yes, a phoon with good drone skills can do quite well. I've even shield tanked a phoon for some angel missions (taking off my beloved target painter). You can even fit 1200s along with the cruise launchers, just you will have to accept less than 4 and use PDUs. 2 or 3 1200 with a drone link augmentor works nicely.
I do not have mission experience with the Maelstrom. However, an old corp mate came to help me out one time when i was flying an abaddon in the assault and having trouble (damn guristas). His Mael tanked them very well, and the large arty did their job.
Definitely Phoon and Mael with arty can work. And heck yeah, don't be a (faD)rake or (jaR)aven. |
Chillshock
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Posted - 2008.08.20 20:22:00 -
[68]
I like all kinds of ships.
Abaddon, Hyperion, CNR, Maelstrom - those are basically the favorites.
Unfortunately I have to agree of Artillery being sub-par. Its not the tracking or the clip size. It's the DPS.
Let me put it this way:
Large Artillery is completely useless without Gyrostabs.
Large Artillery is barely valid with 3 Gyrostabs.
Also I love the Maelstrom for its looks and its tank. But speed and weapons are a pain. Really.
But I am confident that some day the repair of large Artillery will come. And then the Maelstrom will be soooo lovely! So very very lovely. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.08.20 21:04:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Your ability to exagerate is truly awesome.
I find your ability to back down awesome.
Yeah pointing out what I actually wrote is one hell of a back down.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.20 21:05:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Yeah pointing out what I actually wrote is one hell of a back down.
The thread has started being constructive again. I'd rather hoped we could leave it that way. :)
-Liang |
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Chillshock
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Posted - 2008.08.20 21:13:00 -
[71]
I just started this thread in Ideas Board.
It would not be much, but every small bit helps, no? |
Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.08.20 21:44:00 -
[72]
To me it seems artillery is just too much of a long range weapon, low tracking and long range ammo doing more DPS than other guns while short range does less.
What I wanted to ask is how is Pest Fleet with ACs for Angel missions? (Only Angels, there are better options for The/Kin I think and definitely for EM and I do not have any faith in large artillery.) It seems it will only fit large booster. Also I guess plain Pest will not fit mission worthy tank considering I want to go close so 4 lows (+2 for gyrostabs) will not cut it neither will 4 meds (+1 for AB). Machariel seems nicer but the price is restrictive. So far ACs on Dominix seem to work OK vs Angels and that is one slow whale.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.20 21:47:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Forge Lag
To me it seems artillery is just too much of a long range weapon, low tracking and long range ammo doing more DPS than other guns while short range does less.
Except that Artillery isn't really the longest ranged weapons system... and nor does it really do more DPS. They simply have the worst tracking for no apparent reason.
Quote:
What I wanted to ask is how is Pest Fleet with ACs for Angel missions?
I wouldn't use a fleet pest... :-/
-Liang |
1200 baud
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Posted - 2008.08.20 23:27:00 -
[74]
Edited by: 1200 baud on 20/08/2008 23:27:35
Originally by: Chris Sharp
Trying a Mael with 1200s, 2x tracking rigs, 3 gyros and a tracking enhancer now.
It does hit the targets, but the damage is VERY lol. Even with them 3 gyros. :/
Really? 1400's with 3 gyro and 2 TC's wreck for 2000+, always do more than 150, and average around 400 per shot.
This will do missions effectively. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.20 23:37:00 -
[75]
Originally by: 1200 baud
This will do missions effectively.
Not compared to other races, but it's the best mix of SP-friendly and matar. |
Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.21 00:36:00 -
[76]
Originally by: 1200 baud
Edited by: 1200 baud on 20/08/2008 23:27:35
Originally by: Chris Sharp
Trying a Mael with 1200s, 2x tracking rigs, 3 gyros and a tracking enhancer now.
It does hit the targets, but the damage is VERY lol. Even with them 3 gyros. :/
Really? 1400's with 3 gyro and 2 TC's wreck for 2000+, always do more than 150, and average around 400 per shot.
This will do missions effectively.
Just because you see big numbers pop up doesn't mean you're efficient in missions, nor does it mean you're doing a lot of damage, at least not in the way that matters. Big numbers only speak to your alpha strike, which means very little in missions. Damage/time is what really matters, and artillery fails in this department. |
Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.08.21 06:46:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
They simply have the worst tracking for no apparent reason.
Liang - I beg to differ. The reason is ever so obvious: How could something with such a "small clip" have anything to do with the epeen of online games - aka DPS? |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.08.21 07:13:00 -
[78]
If you don't think artillery suck, maybe this can help you:
Sucky artillery is sucky. |
Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.08.21 07:26:00 -
[79]
Exactly - looky at that now shoot at something at 45km
Look at the close range weapon being at optimal and the Artillery being in falloff. Also lower RoF and tracking issues (altho it should be ok using 1200s at 45km). |
Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.08.21 10:13:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Spaztick
If you don't think artillery suck, maybe this can help you:
Sucky artillery is sucky.
That 55 cap/s is more than I need to run my whole Domi setup including tank and AB and that EM does not hurt Angels much and no ammo swap will change that. Try removing heatsinks and replacing with cap mods to get equal setup for missioning. Also damage bonus for projectiles is like cap bonus for lasers, it will not make the guns superior just more useable. I would not consider using large artillery myself but it does save quite some cap and as a result gives you a free slot or more. Pure gank comparisons smell of WoW, sorry, there is something about mountain and Mohammad, I would love my Domi to move better and lock faster and use missiles and dual railguns to stop sucking but tough luck.
Anyway what is wrong with ACs on fleet pest or shield tank on fleet pest or just fleet pest by itself again?
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:01:00 -
[81]
@OP
The Phoon is the best mission ship in Minmatar.
The mixing of 3 weapons systems is confusing - but that doesnt prevent it from being better than the Maelstrom and Tempest.
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Ecks Orion
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Posted - 2008.08.22 17:34:00 -
[82]
After reading through this thread, I've been re-thinking my proposed fit for my mission Mael.
What I had before was a fit with 8x 1200mm and 3 Tier 2 Gyros, but no tracking help. Had an T2 XL Booster and Boost Amp with 2 rat-specific hardeners that was cap stable with everything running, so it had a pretty nasty tank.
Now I'm worried about my ability to actually kill stuff, and that I may be overdoing the tank by making it completely cap-stable.
Was thinking about dropping the boost amp and some of my cap recharge to add a Tracking Enhancer and 2 Tracking Computers (all T2). With this set-up I can run everything plus the Booster for about 3 minutes before my cap goes dry, and my peak cap recharge is just shy of 52.
I could also lose a Gyro to add a second Tracking Enhancer to help things out... but I'm kind of hesitant to fit anything fewer than 3 gyros.
Thoughts?
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.22 17:49:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/08/2008 17:50:37
I'm not in game right now, and I rarely mission on my Matari anymore, but I've traditionally used:
8x 1200 Arty
XL SB, 3x Hardener, Hvy Cap Booster, TC
3x Gyro, TE, DC
3x CCC
IIRC, it's pretty easy to upgrade to 1400's if you drop the hvy cap booster. I may have actually upgraded to 1400's.
At any rate, it's worth noting that 1200's only outdamage 1400's in a very narrow band around 30km (and even then only with fairly significant tracking difficulty). I haven't ever proven it empirically, but I have a really strong suspicion that 1400's are actually the better weapon for missions.
-Liang
Ed: To answer your question... yes, you're overtanking. Missions are all about how quickly you gank everything. As long as you don't warp out or splode anyway... so fit enough tank to keep that from happening!
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Ecks Orion
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Posted - 2008.08.22 18:03:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/08/2008 17:50:37
I'm not in game right now, and I rarely mission on my Matari anymore, but I've traditionally used:
8x 1200 Arty
XL SB, 3x Hardener, Hvy Cap Booster, TC
3x Gyro, TE, DC
3x CCC
IIRC, it's pretty easy to upgrade to 1400's if you drop the hvy cap booster. I may have actually upgraded to 1400's.
At any rate, it's worth noting that 1200's only outdamage 1400's in a very narrow band around 30km (and even then only with fairly significant tracking difficulty). I haven't ever proven it empirically, but I have a really strong suspicion that 1400's are actually the better weapon for missions.
-Liang
Ed: To answer your question... yes, you're overtanking. Missions are all about how quickly you gank everything. As long as you don't warp out or splode anyway... so fit enough tank to keep that from happening!
Thanks for the quick comments.
My new proposed fit is this:
8x 1200mm
XL Booster
2x rat-specific hardeners
2x TC
Cap Recharger
3x Gyro
TE
Cap Power Relay
3x CCC
Thoughts on this? I can also drop the TE for more cap recharge or a DC, or I can drop one of the TCs for more cap recharge or another hardener... or as I said before drop a Gyro for another TE.
The main issue I have with 1400s (besides tracking) is reload time. I have to spend ten seconds reloading almost twice as often with 1400s as I do with 1200s, which both cuts into DPS time, AND causes issues breaking tanks if a reload is timed badly.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.22 18:55:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ecks Orion
Thanks for the quick comments.
My new proposed fit is this:
8x 1200mm
XL Booster
2x rat-specific hardeners
2x TC
Cap Recharger
3x Gyro
TE
Cap Power Relay
3x CCC
Thoughts on this? I can also drop the TE for more cap recharge or a DC, or I can drop one of the TCs for more cap recharge or another hardener... or as I said before drop a Gyro for another TE.
The main issue I have with 1400s (besides tracking) is reload time. I have to spend ten seconds reloading almost twice as often with 1400s as I do with 1200s, which both cuts into DPS time, AND causes issues breaking tanks if a reload is timed badly.
TBH, I'd feel really uncomfortable with only 2 hardeners. It's far more important to mitigate incoming damage (and make effective use of your HP buffer) than to have good cap recharge and constantly run the booster, IMO.
Also, the tracking comps only push your effective engagement range in a couple of km, so make sure that you're actually getting a real benefit, such as hitting orbiting cruisers, from them.
As for the 1400mm reload time, I think that was actually taken into account when I looked at the DPS differences.
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:10:00 -
[86]
I still say train for a raven, only fly that mael if you're going for (lol) minmatar capital ships.
But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:48:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Spaztick
I still say train for a raven, only fly that mael if you're going for (lol) minmatar capital ships.
Yeah, I'd have to agree. I have t2 cruise/torps for phoonage anyways, all my t2 shield stuff is trained up for Maelstrom and others, and so it only took me training Caldari BS to 4 to have a solid mission/ratting boat. There's just not a great deal of incentive to mission with artillery these days, unless you absolutely refuse to train for anything else and haven't trained your phoonage skills up yet.
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