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ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.08.21 10:00:00 - [31] Originally by: Trathen I also think your article adds some hyperbole to missions, particularly loot. Meta 4s drop there, dude. Meta 4s also drop in .9 system rats as well. I have done several...(for clarity i mean enough to get a 9.0 rating with an npc corp) missions. I would bet that I have not recieved more then 2 arbys the entire time. Any meta 4 items I have gotten during missions in empire space have been completely useless items except for the rare 1600plates. Even then my stock of them was built up over well over a year and was exhausted within a few days of pvp. The point that you missed was that meta 4 items of any value are so painfully rare in empire L4s that its pointless to look for them in the wrecks. Why? Because the time you lose rummaging through the junk could have netted you the isk needed to buy the item off of the market,if I or any Mission runner were to simply get another mission. The meta 3 and 4 items I do find are worthless. Their worth being based off of their actual pvp usage as well as market value in a hub. I believe I mentioned that they sell for less then their mineral content's value. Now if you know of a system with an L4 agent that gives missions where Arbys are being dropped at a high rate, by all means point me in its direction. As for the Arbys I have had the majority were scooped when I was in Geminite. I would find 1 about every other week and I wasn't ratting all that much. So the chances of a serious 0.0 ratter finding 2 a week is much greater then an L4 runner finding one once a month.I used to scoop mission loot for a long time, even salvaging so I know that the rate of decent meta 3 and 4 items is pathetic. I scooped loot when ratting out in geminite, which according to most ive talked to is the poorman's 0.0. WHile out there the rate in which decent meta3 and 4 items dropped was significant in comparison to L4s. I've trained for Caldari as well as Gallante ships and looking to go for Amarr ships in the near future. I held onto armor tanking mods long before i got my first Gal ship skill. So when I say they are useless Meta items, i mean they are useless. Again how many meta 3 or 4 large remote shield reps does 1 person actually need? I'd have loved arby launchers dropping like that but that has and never will happen. You need to consult the devs for some sort of loot drop table. You could say its hyperbole when I say junk meta items drop far more then anything half decent but I'm sure they have the actual proof. If anything, go run L4s for a week and see exactly how many decent meta items drop and compare it to the junk. Oh and whats with people using the word "twink"?? I thought that was a derogatory term towards homosexuals? For the most part I think its not the mission runners but the pvpers that are driving up the costs of meta 3 and 4 items on the market. Even then I don't think its really driving them up as much as it is compensating for the rarity of the items. Normally mission runners dont lose many ships,hence the complaint that they are nice and safe. So few mission runners will need to constantly replace gear but pvpers on the other hand will. Rarity+demand= price increase.
Mr Pentex	Posted - 2008.08.21 10:08:00 - [32] Edited by: Mr Pentex on 21/08/2008 10:10:54 Edited by: Mr Pentex on 21/08/2008 10:10:22 Well if empire lvl4 missions are risk free isk and alot of it, and you still runing around 0.0 making so little isk with that high a risk. Is that stupid or what? Everyone can go were the isk is, there gotta be something else in 0.0 that draws those players to that part of space. 0.0 got the PVP and a more free way of life, more exitment over all for game playing. Me? I like to grind missions, I dont want to go lowsec or 0.0 yet. Who is to say that I have to go to lowsec areas to run lvl4 missions, its a player made game. I pay money to play and dont want to forced to go anywere I dont want to go for pirats can have more targets, I dont give a ratts butt if all the pirtes in the whole of EVE were floting around in space picking their nose without any targets at all. I¦ve been to lowsec a couple of times to check it out, but got blown apart and pod killed evertime, for me that is not what i want. I dont want to have to vatch my back all the time for pirates, thats why I stay in high sec, and planing to do so for a while to.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.21 10:10:00 - [33] The problem is also, that someone at CCP took a brain-dead-lazy approach when L4 Agents were moved into Lowsec. A few examples are the good L4 Agents of the Lowsec all dumped into very few lowsec systems, which of course attracts pirates like flies to a honeypot. Check a few of the NPC Corps with Agents in lowsec and you will notice that practically all quality L4 Agents of the same corp have been dumped (there is no other word)into the same systems. It is also a problem that the current L4 Missions require a very specific fitting to run them. PvP Setups do not work in L4 and vice versa. So when a pirate is entering a Mission, the Mission runner has only the option to run because there is no realistic chance to tank a pirate ship and the incoming NPC DPS at the same time.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.21 10:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Mr Pentex Well if empire lvl4 missions are risk free isk and alot of it, and you still runing around 0.0 making so little isk with that high a risk. Is that stupid or what? It's matter of perspection. Grass is always greener on the other side of fence. I'm not saying that EVE is perfectly balanced and there is nothing to be tweaked or rebalanced, I just can't see the point of myriad of whines what pop up about FOTM or whatever else happens to be our everyday doomsday message people like to pick about. If something is better than your current activity go and do it ! Don't be gay, just do it. Less whines and more fun, eh ?
Mr Pentex	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:04:00 - [35] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Mr Pentex Well if empire lvl4 missions are risk free isk and alot of it, and you still runing around 0.0 making so little isk with that high a risk. Is that stupid or what? It's matter of perspection. Grass is always greener on the other side of fence. If something is better than your current activity go and do it ! Don't be gay, just do it. Less whines and more fun, eh ? Thats the point. Why whine about it, when you can do something about it yourselves? take detiny into your own hands and MOVE your butts! What ever CCCP does someone will whine about it, let things be and make un effort to change your selfe and the way you play. Word!
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:20:00 - [36] Originally by: Kerfira So yes, very profitable high-sec L4's ARE affecting 0.0. . People complaining about L4s are attempting to address what they see as a problem but going about it all wrong. There seems to be a mixture of reasons for the complaints against L4s but this mixture weakens the real point they are trying to make. Sure L4s generate isk but what does that really matter? This isk is going to sit in the wallet of a carebear that will never see lowsec or 0.0. It is effectively neutralized. They themselves are neutralized as they will never do anything that isn't 99.9% safe for them. Going after L4s, l3s,hell even L1s or veldspar is going to get these players to change. Even if ccp were to come out and nerf the hell out of missions its not going to cause people to head out to lowsec and 0.0 . Ive talked to the hardcore carebears and of those I have spoken to they have all said roughly the same thing. They dont want to pvp because they feel they are greifing. They dont want to go out to low/0.0 because they don't want to be griefed. They are happy doing nothing. THey have no motivation to head out there regardless of how much you nerf empire or how much you buff low/0.0 space. A lot of people are making it sound as though L4s are destroying the economy of the game. That really makes little sense since these players are buying little more then ammo or the rare t2 ship to stroke off to while dreaming of pwning a pirate. So the calll to nerf L4s on this aspect seems misdirected as it doesn't effect the economy or availabilty of goods in 0.0 . People in 0.0 are basically asking for ccp to shovel these players out to 0.0 so they can get popped. These players are going to log off for good if such a thing were to happen. Having people unsub is never going to populate 0.0 so your working against yourself with this call for L4 nerfs. What is needed is a reason for these carebears to go out and get a taste of pvp in a way that doesn't make them feel like greifers. How do you do that? well CCP answered that question a few months ago though it seems like the complainers missed the release of FW. FW has gotten a lot of non pvpers to come out of empire to get a taste of other aspects of eve. With that comes losses which means someone needs to make more gear,ships and ammo. Thats going to stimulate the in game economy,which it already has. SO that leaves me wondering if people are just crying out because of the nanonerf or out of confusion. At this point L4s should remain the same since those in FW are bound to be doing L4s to buy the ships and gear they need to participate in FW. The longer they are exposed to FW the higher the chances they will start looking towards 0.0 as the next step now that they have shaken their fear of pvp. If you were to take a look at another article of mine on evemag I have already gone over this. If miners have a problem they need to start their own threads instead of lumping their complaints with others that are unclear. But then again the problem with mining isn't exactly L4s but the glut of minerals introduced into the system by the drone regions. I used to mine before the drone region release and soon stopped after it. The reason is the nocx and zydrine i was mining in lowsec lost a good 50% of its value. This change didn't happen because of L4s. I don't recall ccp saying they were going to buff the amount of loot in L4s before or after the drone regions were added.
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:27:00 - [37] Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 21/08/2008 14:30:24 Originally by: Ogul Risk vs. reward is flawed as a concept and an argument. I agree. Unfortunately allot of EVE players hold it up as if it was the "Prime Directive" of EVE. Which is rather silly, since it does not apply to a startlingly large amount of EVE game play. (Market Trading, T2 BPO, T2 Lottery, Reasearch LP Datacores, and so on) I dont know where the concept came from but it does not really apply to EVE. If it did, Low sec would be full of billionaires. On another note, anyone able to read the article? all i get is: Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:33:00 - [38] Don't nerf highsec missions, boost 0.0 and lowsec. Make it so that low-sec ratting = 0.0 ratting now 0.0 bounties/ore gets doubled/tripled even
Ronja	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:45:00 - [39] Don't fix what aint broken. People need those lvl4 missions to pay for ship replacements and to be able to pvp. Remove them and then you really messing with your player-base. Forcing people into low sec or 0.0 is retarted, if they want to go there they will. Don't force your gameplay onto others. Almost all people I play with use lvl4s in high sec to replace their ships while fighting in low sec and 0.0. That said, I'd like to see the return of Nexus chip NPC buy orders which were the only reason I ran lvl4s in low sec.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Marie Trudeau I don't think he was saying that, I think he was saying that the call for nerfing l4 is flawed. To me, it's very odd that this is coming up now, when l4s are nothing particularly new. I think it's true that as more players enter EVE, and more do l4s, more ISK is created by them, as well as more minerals in total. But other than that I can't see why the outcry is happening now, other than because some people are bitter about the nano-nerf and want a nerf in their own favor. This!!!

Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Marie Trudeau I don't think he was saying that, I think he was saying that the call for nerfing l4 is flawed. To me, it's very odd that this is coming up now, when l4s are nothing particularly new. I think it's true that as more players enter EVE, and more do l4s, more ISK is created by them, as well as more minerals in total. But other than that I can't see why the outcry is happening now, other than because some people are bitter about the nano-nerf and want a nerf in their own favor. This!!! Yeah I agree too. Not sure where the whining is coming from. (LVL4's have been nerfed several times already) *Sorry for the pyramid quote.
Lemptie Gallente Glass House	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:34:00 - [42] That nerfing lv 4 is coming from a few threads on the forums. And quess who post it ,pirats alts and 0.0 alliance members. Pirats i understand why the post that .0.0 alliance well maybe people are getting smart and don`t wanna die in fleet battles where you die without loading grid.Or it`s a GM alt they know that empire can`t suport so much people.When they fix the lagg people go to 0.0 nerfing lv4 won`t help.Or just make low sec 0.0 . We didn`t want low sec anyway.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:35:00 - [43] Edited by: Black Scorpio on 21/08/2008 15:35:31 Originally by: Mr Pentex Edited by: Mr Pentex on 21/08/2008 10:10:54 Edited by: Mr Pentex on 21/08/2008 10:10:22 Well if empire lvl4 missions are risk free isk and alot of it, and you still runing around 0.0 making so little isk with that high a risk. Is that stupid or what? Everyone can go were the isk is, there gotta be something else in 0.0 that draws those players to that part of space. 0.0 got the PVP and a more free way of life, more exitment over all for game playing. Me? I like to grind missions, I dont want to go lowsec or 0.0 yet. Who is to say that I have to go to lowsec areas to run lvl4 missions, its a player made game. I pay money to play and dont want to forced to go anywere I dont want to go for pirats can have more targets, I dont give a ratts butt if all the pirtes in the whole of EVE were floting around in space picking their nose without any targets at all. I¦ve been to lowsec a couple of times to check it out, but got blown apart and pod killed evertime, for me that is not what i want. I dont want to have to vatch my back all the time for pirates, thats why I stay in high sec, and planing to do so for a while to. You are so blind if you think 0.0 has only PvP. The greatest carebears and farmers can be found right there.. actually there is a great abundance of them all over safe 0.0 systems. Just expand your horizons...
Lemptie Gallente Glass House	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:49:00 - [44] You are so blind if you think 0.0 has only PvP. The greatest carebears and farmers can be found right there.. actually there is a great abundance of them all over safe 0.0 systems. Just expand your horizons... The greatest carebears in a alliance ,are buiding there stuff in empire.And jump it to 0.0 and throw it on the market, so called we are doeing something for our alliance.but we get rich and we hope you blow up yourself alot of times...profit
waferzankko Caldari Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:03:00 - [45] all level 2+ missions in low sec and 0.0 only
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:37:00 - [46] Originally by: waferzankko all level 2+ missions in low sec and 0.0 only They are already there. No one is stopping you using them. Hell, they even offer you significally better rewards for the trouble. Or if you think hi sec has better rewards then just go for it! No point of fretting over it if you clearly 'see' the better rewards, just use them instead of stinky options.
knobber Jobbler Caldari Holding Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:47:00 - [47] Sounds like daft idea to move any lvl 4's to low sec only. It doesn't actually serve any purpose what so ever other than to give pirates some more targets. Why don't pirates just kill each other? Now there is grand idea. Who would want to hang around in a low sec Motsu? Unless all agents could give out level 4 mission then all you'll have is the most dominant alliance in that area controlling those mission agents, people would be getting blown up left right and centre unless they are in a large corporation...this move would singly handedly destroy the high sec economy, kill of the solo play/small corp mission running game and loose CCP a good proportion of there customers. Moving level 4's to low sec is probably the most ill thought out idea I've ever come across. I hope its just forum rumourmongering. Just create more lvl 5 mission agents in low sec.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:52:00 - [48] Originally by: knobber Jobbler Moving level 4's to low sec is probably the most ill thought out idea I've ever come across. I hope its just forum rumourmongering. It's pirates posting revenge threads in order to punish carebears for the proposed Empire security nerfs.
Cor Aidan KNIGHT'S OF THE ROUND ROOM ReZZerecteD AlckemisTs	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:54:00 - [49] I can't read the article (500 Internal Server Error - woo!). However, the fundamental flaw in this and all similar discussions is this: while isk is a type of reward, there are rewards that are not isk. Because isk is not the only reward, using "isk generation potential" as a metric for reward will always be....unsatisfactory.
knobber Jobbler Caldari Holding Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Evelgrivion What I care about is that it is risk free money, and is enough for an easy living. Risk/Reward is broken, and people who do little beyond grinding for ISK are doing very little for the economics that actually pertain to the fun part of the game; blowing people up. Why not just create harder and more rewarding lvl 5's in low sec? That will get people to low sec but in fleets to get past the manditory gate campers. Some people find high mission running fun though and there is considerable risk to characters with less than 10m SP because you stand to loose your 100m Battleship you've spent all your time saving for. For many people mission running is fun and what they CCP for every month. Where is the problem in letting people play the game how they want to?

Atlas Oracle Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:09:00 - [51] Originally by: knobber Jobbler Why don't pirates just kill each other? Now there is grand idea. the fights are probably too fair that way, can't have that. much more fun to drop 5 ships with 6 points on a pve fit missioner and /flex uber pvp badness, than square up in a pvp fit .vs pvp fit fight. pirates are the cold blooded tough guys of eve and "only looking for a good fight"... as long as their opposition is pve fit and has 6 points and insta perma cap drain on them.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Mistress Frome But yeah, some people want missions nerfed, smoe want everythign else buffed. THe point is that people want there to be an actual reason to be out in 0.0. If there was one, yeah you could say that pirates will be ganking carebears a lot. But the carebears will also be getting mad spacerich. And for the dumber ones who take a couple helpings of gankage and none of the spacerich, there's always just staying in empire and making less money. So the only actual reason to be in 0.0 for you is isk/hour you make? Evidently your corp don't share moon mining prevents in any way (or don't mien moons at all), capital ships don't interest you, exploration don't interest you and so on. Then there is always this amazing thing where I get more isk ratting in mediocre true sec systems -0.30 or so, pirate NPC sovereignty, than missioning in high sec. In a near future I will try 0.0 mission too, bringing a character there for that. I get the impression that a lot of people cry for crying sake or have very oppressive corporations.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:02:00 - [53] Originally by: Kerfira This has the effect that there essentially are no people LIVING in 0.0! People go there only to fight, but as there are no small targets to hunt the only thing left is to hunt other hunters. As these targets are not 'small', this is another factor encouraging blobbing. So you want stupid people giving you "small" targets, i.e. targets incapable of fighting back? Why they should do that? I have seen solo people missioning in NPC pirate systems, go hunting them. Oh wait, they are smart and hide when you come, you want targets, not people that avoid you till they have the number for a chance to win.
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:24:00 - [54] Anyone saying that L4 missions produce higher rewards than 0.0 is an idiot. 0.0 benefits: * Officer / Faction spawns * Far higher Loyalty Point bonuses * Fancy implant drops (crystals, slaves, all the stuff empire cant get) * Better roids (ark/bis anyone?). * Can setup ratting chains for very nice amounts of income * Peace & Quiet (might get a hostile once a week in your secure 0.0 space) * Regular spawns often producing named and higher meta level items * Hauler spawns * Potential extremely high yield Complexes (Gist X Type anyone?) * Level 5 Agents Now the biggest rebuttal one will provide to the above points is that most of 0.0 doesn't actually have these features. Only select systems are blessed with them. This is where I would suggest 0.0 dwellers should instead start a "0.0/Lowsec Boost Thread". I don't believe Level 4 missions need a nerf at all and would be extremely ****ed off if they got one. The real problem here is that lowsec/nullsec need a considerable boost. Taking away our favourite profession won't take us to lowsec. Some might but a decent portion would simply leave the game. Instead encourage people into lowsec/nullsec by improving the points above. Use a region like Providence for example. This is 0.0 however it has terrible roids, no 0.0 stations (therefore no agents) and nothing special on the complex front. There should be parts of Providence and all other 0.0 regions that have Ark/Bistot asteroids, even if in small quantities similar to Jaspet in lowsec. There should be stations in all of these regions or ways to hire agents to work in player outposts. tldr version : Don't nerf empire missions, boost lowsec/nullsec
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:25:00 - [55] The link, it is broken!
Ethaet Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:25:00 - [56] Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error. More information about this error may be available in the server error log. Additionally, a 500 Internal Server Error error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. FAIL.
Lothros Andastar Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:28:00 - [57] Edited by: Lothros Andastar on 21/08/2008 18:27:48 Pool is Closed due to 500 Error GET!
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:32:00 - [58] Link broke... but you do realize how much time people are putting in for these missions. Compare that to the rare POS's out in 0.0... they don't nearly put in the face time for any of that. I'm all for people who play to be rewarded... if non-stop lvl 4's are your mojo, then by all means do it. Lag from lvl 4 hubs is the bigger issue. I don't think moving them to low sec is the solution, but perhaps instead let players assign one agent per month, and have them do them in any system that is equivalent to that agents system. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.21 18:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon The problem is also, that someone at CCP took a brain-dead-lazy approach when L4 Agents were moved into Lowsec. A few examples are the good L4 Agents of the Lowsec all dumped into very few lowsec systems, which of course attracts pirates like flies to a honeypot. Check a few of the NPC Corps with Agents in lowsec and you will notice that practically all quality L4 Agents of the same corp have been dumped (there is no other word)into the same systems. Working as intended. The general consensus is that they were made that way to gather pirates and mission runners when the general population was low (less than 15K player online at the same time, with low time as low as 5-7K). Now we have a low time population of 20K players with highs as high as 38-39K. So what was useful in the past as a gathering point now is simply a danger zone. Originally by: Gamesguy the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
Smakalicious Caldari Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.08.21 19:11:00 - [60] Sorry guys, I had a DB problem today. Site should work as intended now. Thanks for your patience! All the best, Smak ------------------------------------- ΞνΞ-Mag.com à an independent EVE ezine ΞνΞ-Places.com à Whereareyou?



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