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RayBanJockey
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:08:00 -
[1]
Edited by: RayBanJockey on 21/08/2008 11:08:33
Now, how to put this? I'm not very good at explaining stuff sadly but I still want to try and get this point across;
Shifting ISK rewards from highsec to lowsec won't work. Ever. I'll tell you why.
Ninety-nine percent of all miners and people in general who operate out of highsec are of a certain mentality that entirely prevents them from even remotely putting themselves in harms way. The decision a carebear makes when you more and more lessen the rewards of highsec ops is not wether he should be daring enough to go to lowsec NOW or wait until the rewards in lowsec are even higher so that it no longer is worth staying in highsec - no, it is instead a decision of wether his mode of gaming still allows him to have enough fun for him to keep playing eve. Because no matter how badly you bugger up highsec ISK making, if the carebear in question doesn't feel like exposing himself to PvP, he's out of here.
And quite rightly tbh, why should he play on the sole terms of the PvPers? It's not just your game is it? No, eve is not just a PvP game - it is a PvE game too.
The targetless noob-gankers of lowsec are having a hard time finding targets (bar FW ones but lets not talk about that now - pretend it doesn't exist). You can't make people go there by force because of the reasons I just stated - but you can make people already prone to PvP want to go there instead of nullsec. But HOW, I hear you ask! No idea tbh. But moving all lvl 4 agents to lowsec or spawning random pots of gold in Gehi won't work.
Or am I wrong? Would carebears in fact risk their lives to get more iskies?
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:20:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ghoest on 21/08/2008 11:21:13
Wrong.
Its not 99% that will play in safety no matter what.
There is a large % that would go to low sec if the rewards made it worth while over time. Maybe its 1/3 maybe its 1/4 maybe its 1/2.
I dont know an exact % but its enough to make low sec fun and active.
But the answer isnt forcing people into low sec - its making low sec pay better.
Right now if you decide to solo lvl 4s in low sec its a money losing proposition for most players. That isnt even close to viable. |
RayBanJockey
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:34:00 -
[3]
Making lowsec more profitable is exactly the same as making highsec less profitable (worse in fact since you'd be deflating ISK value since you'd be introducing more of it). Either way you're forcing PvP upon people who don't want it by making highsec non-viable as a competitive income source.
This is my whole point - lowsec PvP activity should somehow be "buffed" but you should use the current PvP population to do it - not the carebears who don't want to go there in the first place.
ps.
CCP your forums are terrible please do something about the login mechanism  |
Sidias
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:42:00 -
[4]
I think a good start to improving low sec is to introduce BS rats in the belts. That way more people would PvE in the belts and would get gankers off gates and actually give them something to do in hunting down the ratters that might frequent the belts.
Providing some better ore in the belts would also be an idea to increase traffic in low sec areas, although it might be more viable to provide some better plexes that have mining belts in them. That way it would require more skill than just flying into a belt and ganking a mining barge. The attacker would need to do more work and the defender would need to be alert for probes but not too alert that as soon as someone enters local they would need to leave the belt.
I imagine improving low sec has been discussed to death already but it would be nice to see some kind of acknowledgment from CCP that some of these ideas might be considered. The main thing for low sec is having the PvP and PvE aspect of the game without having to deal with claiming Sov in systems and dealing with huge blobs. As it stands there really is no point in being in low sec other than being a gate camper and killing any targets of opportunity. |
Siberys
Gallente
Nebula Sharks
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:47:00 -
[5]
I qualify as a carebear
 Quote:
I'm not a carebear, I'm a pvper against the computer...
^^ as shown.
But I like lowsec. I go, kill a few high-reward rats in my cruiser, and run away as soon as anyone comes into my system.
It's fun, makes money, and gets my adrenaline pumping.
I would love lowsec with more rewards, but the pirates would swarm all over me chances are... |
Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sidias
I think a good start to improving low sec is to introduce BS rats in the belts. That way more people would PvE in the belts and would get gankers off gates and actually give them something to do in hunting down the ratters that might frequent the belts.
Exactly. Ratting is a solo or small gang activity and improving it in low-sec will lead to more small-gang belt-piracy as well. More small-gang belt piracy will lead to more small-gang anti-piracy. And the best part is its all off of the gates. |
Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:57:00 -
[7]
tbh if CCP does remove the rewards from high-sec and 90% of the population quits - GOOD!
Eve has always been a game of Risk Vs Reward (atleast it was about 3years ago when I started playing). If you wanted to become rich you moved to 0.0, which in turn is risky.
Eve ,imo ,is overcrowed, causing LAG! Especially in high-sec mission areas.
Removing the rewards from high-sec and putting them in low-sec is a great thing (I'm no pirate) It focuses people working together by securing the low-sec system, people who cba or don't want to PvP can stay in empire but make very little isk. After all whats the point in ISK if you dont spend it? I mean once you get that faction fitted Golem, what else is the isk for? epeen?
So to all those carebears running lvl4's why bother? if you don't pvp, why do you need the isk? |
Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.08.21 11:59:00 -
[8]
The daily clueless paranoid ****er thread. |
Siberys
Gallente
Nebula Sharks
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Elrca
tbh if CCP does remove the rewards from high-sec and 90% of the population quits - GOOD!
Yay! Then I could spend a lot more time going about lowsec and 0.0 exploring, ratting, and having fun. At least, much more fun than I'm having now, which is still a lot. And that would totally be worth it for me.
But my only change to your plan should be they still have some LvL 1 agents in highsec for the new characters. |
Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:02:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Elrca on 21/08/2008 12:04:22
Yeah dont get me wrong lvl1 & 2 agents in high sec 0.5 and lower lvl3 and lvl4's
[color=red]WARNING: Wow analogy coming[/color]
If you look at wow, starter areas are point less for characters older than a few days this should be like 1.0 sec systems..the lower you go the more profitable. Simplicity.
(note: I played wow for 20 days then quit) |
Eldar Boon
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:04:00 -
[11]
Almost all of Eve is PVP in some respect. Even if you are a miner, trader or industrialist, you still compete for the limited resources that your profession requires.
Mission runner is the only profession in Eve that doesn't allow players to compete.
There is not a limited resource, so missions can be indefinitely farmed in relative safety. This creates an environment where skill and innovation is not rewarded, and mind numbing "grind" becomes the easiest way to make ISK. I don't believe that this is in keeping with the spirit of Eve.
I agree that there is a large contingent of players that do not wish to face another player in combat (me included). That is absolutely fine, and all the enjoyable mission game play should still be available to them; but I think it's fair that if you are not willing to take the risk, then you should not expect such lavish rewards.
I'm not an advocate of removing level 4 missions from hi-sec, but I do think that some re-balance is required. Ideally, I would like to see a more dynamic missions system where rewards are affected by the supply of pilots for an agent. It stands to reason that agents should obey the laws of supply and demand as the rest of Eve does. Also, with 200 pilots running missions, then I think any descent NPC pirates would find a slightly safer system.
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Foulque
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:05:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Foulque on 21/08/2008 12:06:25
It's not so much a question of how to force the risk averse players into Low Sec. More so that for those players who are willing to take the risk the rewards should make it worthwhile.
Not all people who use high sec L4s as a source of income are complete "carebears" it's just that it's the most reliable and profitable source of income in the game for a solo player. i.e. broken 
+ Nice post Eldar |
Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Foulque
solo player. i.e. broken
Solo game X3 is -> way
Eve is MMO! |
heheheh
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:09:00 -
[14]
Mission runners do compete too nowadays,
if they want to salvage that is :) |
Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:10:00 -
[15]
lol, I just thought...make lvl4 access only avaiable from Player corps not NPC corps ...now that would be fun! |
Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari
Firestar Drive Yards
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ryoji Tanakama on 21/08/2008 12:26:30
I don't think this is true at all.
High-sec, low-sec and null-sec are 3 different games. People play in nullsec predominantly because of the different gameplay offered: PvP, territory control, cap-ships etc. There are nullsec players out there for the isk but it's seriously not the mainstream, primarily the more organise industrial corps. 80% of nullsec pilots are there because it's fun for them.
Low sec players tend to be in lowsec for the thrills and kills, without the ever-looming shadow of territory control and massive logistics. Lowsec is the most dangerous security level and it's the best place for some skirmish combat and some gate camping. Most players in lowsec are there because of the gameplay on offer and not for the isk.
High sec players get to log in for their few hours, mine, run missions or whatever without having to worry about who else is in system or the threat of PvP combat. The isk is good, this is true, but again its a gameplay choice based on the more relaxed and less threatening nature of concord protected areas.
So no, moving level 4s out of high sec ain't gonna give you more expensive mission ships to shoot at. The benefits of level 4s in lowsec are already there (increased payouts and LP rewards) and level 5s have been seeded. If the isk was the deciding factor we would have seen a shift in player distribution. The simple truth is that highsec players just dont want to be bothered by the PvPers found in lowsec.
Frankly, they should be alowed to play the game how they want without certain parties trying to engineer them into ganking targets.
BTW I've seen my share of high, low and nullsec playtime. |
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: RayBanJockey
Edited by: RayBanJockey on 21/08/2008 11:08:33
Now, how to put this? I'm not very good at explaining stuff sadly but I still want to try and get this point across;
Shifting ISK rewards from highsec to lowsec won't work. Ever. I'll tell you why.
Ninety-nine percent of all miners and people in general who operate out of highsec are of a certain mentality that entirely prevents them from even remotely putting themselves in harms way. The decision a carebear makes when you more and more lessen the rewards of highsec ops is not wether he should be daring enough to go to lowsec NOW or wait until the rewards in lowsec are even higher so that it no longer is worth staying in highsec - no, it is instead a decision of wether his mode of gaming still allows him to have enough fun for him to keep playing eve. Because no matter how badly you bugger up highsec ISK making, if the carebear in question doesn't feel like exposing himself to PvP, he's out of here.
And quite rightly tbh, why should he play on the sole terms of the PvPers? It's not just your game is it? No, eve is not just a PvP game - it is a PvE game too.
The targetless noob-gankers of lowsec are having a hard time finding targets (bar FW ones but lets not talk about that now - pretend it doesn't exist). You can't make people go there by force because of the reasons I just stated - but you can make people already prone to PvP want to go there instead of nullsec. But HOW, I hear you ask! No idea tbh. But moving all lvl 4 agents to lowsec or spawning random pots of gold in Gehi won't work.
Or am I wrong? Would carebears in fact risk their lives to get more iskies?
You are completely wrong. People are not stupid, if a risk is worth taking they will take it, just as they used to do before low sec was totally nerfed. Look at mining. Mining in low sec is easy, comparitively risk free and isk hungry miners would flock to it, if it wasn't totally worthless!. You used to see mining ops quite often, now the only thing worth mining in low sec is ice. If hi sec mission runners were completely risk adverse you would never see them going to 0.0 either, but they do. The total number of people who will never take a risk is probably about 40%, not 99%, and lets face it those people grind for the sake of it and would still do it if they had to do level 3s. Breezing through a level 4 in a deadspace fitted faction bs is no more challenging or rewarding than doing a level 3. |
Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:34:00 -
[18]
The whole reason the lvl4 nerf is cried for is because some of those people in 0.0 use alt chars/accounts to run lvl4's risk free in empire so they can fund their own pvp habit in 0.0.
Take it from me, I play about 3 hours a night. I want to PvP, I need to fund myself to buy all the shiney ships and mods...so I'm low on ISK...better start ratting...oh wait...30 people from my corp is online 50% who are ratting...tell you what I'll go a few jumps out of ht eoutpost to rat...<30mins later> 5 nuets in local...warp to safe spot....warp to 2nd safe...etc...<15 mins past> locals leaves...back to ratting <rins and repeat>...<3 hours go by>time to dock and go to bed...only 20mil made...damn!...<next night> clone jump to empire (no empire war)...talk to lvl4 agent..<3 hours go by running lvl4's> 30mil made.....<rinse and repeat till the week end> PVP Time! ....
lvl4's not just run by carebears.......run by alts of pvper's... |
davcin
Caldari
davcin Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:35:00 -
[19]
Agree with OP.
For me:
Level 4 Agent in low sec only = bye bye EVE
Being forced to go to PVP = bye bye EVE
I don't want to go and don't care about PVP.
If PVPers are low on targets it is their problem and not a 'PVE player only problem'.
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Eldar Boon
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:37:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Mission runners do compete too nowadays,
if they want to salvage that is :)
Very true, ninja salvaging seems to be a profession that have developed due to the concentraion on mission runners. It could be argued that mission runners don't compete for salvage, since they usually only salvage their missions.
I guess it would also be possible to scan down running missions and get the kills, but this would seem a little pointless, but funny.  .
In either case this doesn't appear to be a balancing factor. |
Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: davcin
Agree with OP.
For me:
Level 4 Agent in low sec only = bye bye EVE
Being forced to go to PVP = bye bye EVE
I don't want to go and don't care about PVP.
If PVPers are low on targets it is their problem and not a 'PVE player only problem'.
So why do you need the isk? |
Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:46:00 -
[22]
Make level 3's/4's only accessible to those in player corps. Add a finite number of missions to level 4 agents per day (maybe based upon the average that agent gives out a day x0.75). This forces farmers into player corps. Make a mandatory 48 hours between switching corps (this gives Eve players a chance to do their duty and shut them down and may make those with a more 'soloist' approach get out of their hugboxes and band together). Limit the amount of ice available in highsec, lower regen rates.
Increase spawn/regen of ice in lowsec. Add up to 650k BS rats in the belts. Remove the cap on missions on level 3/4 agents in lowsec and increase LP/Payout/bounties for these missions. Add better ore.
Yes I'm a pirate, yes I'm looking for more easy targets BUT if you push some of these larger empire corps into lowsec it will force them to band together and fight for it, or they will quit, seperating the chaff from the wheat.
Lowsec is stagnant if you're not in FW (and the majority of those systems are dead). Give it a boost so people have more of an incentive to come. |
Sharupak
Minmatar
Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:47:00 -
[23]
You have to give lowsec some exclusivity. The populated places in eve are so because they are crucial to the eve economy. Lowsec needs something vital to the eve economy. Decide what that will be and the problem will be solved.
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Elrca
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Make level 3's/4's only accessible to those in player corps. Add a finite number of missions to level 4 agents per day (maybe based upon the average that agent gives out a day x0.75). This forces farmers into player corps. Make a mandatory 48 hours between switching corps (this gives Eve players a chance to do their duty and shut them down and may make those with a more 'soloist' approach get out of their hugboxes and band together). Limit the amount of ice available in highsec, lower regen rates.
Increase spawn/regen of ice in lowsec. Add up to 650k BS rats in the belts. Remove the cap on missions on level 3/4 agents in lowsec and increase LP/Payout/bounties for these missions. Add better ore.
Yes I'm a pirate, yes I'm looking for more easy targets BUT if you push some of these larger empire corps into lowsec it will force them to band together and fight for it, or they will quit, seperating the chaff from the wheat.
Lowsec is stagnant if you're not in FW (and the majority of those systems are dead). Give it a boost so people have more of an incentive to come.
Quoted cause this guy makes sense! |
Jeirth
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:59:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Elrca
tbh if CCP does remove the rewards from high-sec and 90% of the population quits - GOOD!
Way to kill the game, do this and YOU would be playing x3 solo 3 months later, when CCP cuts its losses and goes with World of Darkness or whatever its called.  |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:01:00 -
[26]
Change the aggro mechanics of mission rats so as to force those that wish to enter mission areas to fit their ships for mission damage. Then move missions wherever you like.
Otherwise, "fish in a barrel", shoot 'em...
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Helios III
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Eldar Boon
I'm not an advocate of removing level 4 missions from hi-sec, but I do think that some re-balance is required. Ideally, I would like to see a more dynamic missions system where rewards are affected by the supply of pilots for an agent. It stands to reason that agents should obey the laws of supply and demand as the rest of Eve does. Also, with 200 pilots running missions, then I think any descent NPC pirates would find a slightly safer system.
Yeah I think this would work really well imo. It would spread the players out and introduce 'Agent Exploring', as in trying to find the best untapped agents. I guess it wouldn't be that hard to implement either (not that I know anything about coding, I could be wrong). |
Sharupak
Minmatar
Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Make level 3's/4's only accessible to those in player corps. Add a finite number of missions to level 4 agents per day (maybe based upon the average that agent gives out a day x0.75). This forces farmers into player corps. Make a mandatory 48 hours between switching corps (this gives Eve players a chance to do their duty and shut them down and may make those with a more 'soloist' approach get out of their hugboxes and band together). Limit the amount of ice available in highsec, lower regen rates.
Increase spawn/regen of ice in lowsec. Add up to 650k BS rats in the belts. Remove the cap on missions on level 3/4 agents in lowsec and increase LP/Payout/bounties for these missions. Add better ore.
Yes I'm a pirate, yes I'm looking for more easy targets BUT if you push some of these larger empire corps into lowsec it will force them to band together and fight for it, or they will quit, seperating the chaff from the wheat.
Lowsec is stagnant if you're not in FW (and the majority of those systems are dead). Give it a boost so people have more of an incentive to come.
This is a very good suggestion.
It also made me think of the ore situation a bit. I am not sure why CCP did this, but the rarer ores take up significantly more cargo space than non rare ores. They should take up the same amount of space and give you more yield across the board. A ton of raw ore is a ton of raw ore. But for instance in the real world, a ton of hematite has 25% more iron than magnetite. It is however harder to find hematite in large quantities. It has been years since I mined in eve and maybe condensed...etc fixed this, but the way it used to be is why bother with omber because you got just as much or more yield from veld...it shouldnt be that way.
If the rarer ores in lowsec gave you more yield than the non rare ores in hisec I think that would go along way to solving alot of this as well. Perhaps changing this would screw up the economy though, I would imagine it would be a real PIA! |
La Muerte
Amarr
The Slaver Hound
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:48:00 -
[29]
Omg , another one of those threads.... all presented very much in black and white...
A lot of you are suffering from some sort of delusional tunnel vision... As if someone running a mission in high sec must be a carebear.
Ever been to 0.0? Yeah? Really? Then you know it can be fun just to clone jump to high sec to do a level 4 mission for various reasons... Isk for pvp is a good reason , another good reason is just to take a break from 0.0 life for an evening , run a mission without checking your back every second.
And what's with all these economy-armchair-specialists in this game? Inflation you say? Inflation is a joke in eve .There is no inflation in eve.You wanna see inflation , you change your precious dollars , euro's and roebels in Zimbabwe dollars and wait a few days. Market has never looked as good as it did now in eve , many thanks to invention.
Look. I've been around since 2004 and all is running swell. The great thing about this game is that you can be what you wanna be. You wanna play a psychopatic mass murderer , you do so. You wanna be a roid-sucking Chribba , you can do so. You wanna shoot big fat red crosses in high sec for a bit of isk , you can do so.
Now for all you complainers : shut up , be happy!
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: RayBanJockey
Ninety-nine percent of all miners and people in general who operate out of highsec are of a certain mentality that entirely prevents them from even remotely putting themselves in harms way.
Then pilots who do put themselves in harm's way should have much bigger rewards, so either nerfing high-sec or buffing low-sec should happen so that the risk/reward ceases to be broken?
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