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Hull tanking, honestly

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RayBanJockey	Posted - 2008.08.22 07:32:00 - [1] [Armageddon, New Setup 4] <- Yes, it's from EFT Now, before you push the reply button and plunge your mighty flaming sword into my cowering troll heart, please look at this first. This setup is a slight attempt at provoking you, I'll give you that, but it has also turned into a serious question of mine since I first fired up EFT earlier this morning after I had retrieved my usual cup of nasty coffee-like substance from the machine in the hallway which by the way I'm sure is part of an intricate scheme to slowly poison flash programmers Which I wouldn't hold against them TBQH. Anyway, look at this: highs 7x Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L 1x [empty high slot] mids 3x Large 'Integrative' Hull Repair Unit lows 1x Damage Control II 2x Co-Processor II 3x Heat Sink II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II rigs 3x Capacitor Control Circuit I What are we looking at here? Well first of all theres a DCU on there which boosts hull resists to 60% across the board (which the other thread by that other guy in general section pointed out before it was locked, like hull tanking is automatically an attempt at trolling and smacktalking). I then loaded the 3 midslots with named large hull repairers. Yes folks that's right - hull repairers are midslot modules. These particular ones do 180 per cycle, so that's 540 total per cycle, and given you have 60% resists that's in fact ~1300 hp repaired per cycle on a uniform damage profile. When I'd done that I loaded as many (7) megapulses I could, and put amarr navy multifreqs ni them. The dps in the end landed at 855 which is rather ok if you ask me - shave off 100dps if you think regular multifreqs are more likely in your case. Then I turned back to look at my remaining lowslots, and filled them with CPU, heatsinks and cap relays to keep everything going, together with a few cap rigs. Now the thing is, sadly, this sucks donkey's hairy *****s. Why? Because the cycle of the hull repairers is TWENTY SECONDS. In the end it tanks something ridiculous like 65dps, which is worse than a frig. What I propose is that someone buff the cycle time of hull repairers because it's still an interesting concept due to the repairers being midslot and you can still only boost resistances to 50-60%. For instance, with the right tweaks, I see it becoming a very viable alternative to shield tanking for ships with too few lowslots to armor tank**. You may now reply. And no you may not say "But we already have 2 modes of tanking we dont need a 3:rd" </wall_of_text>
Vorga Gar	Posted - 2008.08.22 07:43:00 - [2] While you can only get resistances to 60%, there is a handy module in the Hull Upgrades part of the market called Bulkheads. Drop the coprocessors for 2 of those and switch the mids to mwd, warp disruptor and whatever else.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.22 07:54:00 - [3] Thread is not a troll. Thread is not funny. What is the point of this thread? -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.08.22 07:59:00 - [4] I always think of the DCU as the "fight untill you win or die" module when I fly frigs, but on bigger ships it's the "mayday" module that gives you a chance to bail our if things go from bad to really bad (and your not scrammed). The main problem with hull tanking is that it's useless. Why have a completely useless module in the game? You could make it a bit better and perhaps only allow hull or armor reps on the ship (not both). This would give a viable option to either have med slots of low slots free (more fitting yay!). Still a hull buffer only would probably scare you :D It would probably be a fitting that could be described "alive or melted". A very specialized one. Not sure how unbalanced it would make the game when you could have 9 low slots and the thing would still tank. Imagine the dps....
RayBanJockey	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Vaal Erit Thread is not a troll. Thread is not funny. What is the point of this thread? To try and get something going on the subject, to try and develop something new out of the whole hull tanking thing that is usable. Not just the old Sorry-but-we-already-talked-about-this-and-it-sucks-so-leave-it-alone. Nothing gets me going like taking on stuff that people, preferably everybody, has deemed futile. I don't want to just find a way to use hull tanking passably, I want to make it actually useful, maybe even a prefered method of tanking in some situations. Anyone?
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:30:00 - [6] It would be so damn minmatar to ducktape...er...hulltank. I'd do it on my minmatar ships just for the style... Do all hull repairers have such a shite cycle time?
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:42:00 - [7] Originally by: Thirzarr It would be so damn minmatar to ducktape...er...hulltank. I'd do it on my minmatar ships just for the style... Do all hull repairers have such a shite cycle time? Yes lol, because your hull isn't meant to take damage, it therefore takes a long time to repair unlike armour. Thinking about minmatar ships however, since min ships only use cap for tanking, should the icon in the middle just be a roll of duct tape.
RayBanJockey	Posted - 2008.08.22 08:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Thirzarr Do all hull repairers have such a shite cycle time? Short answer, yes. Long answer; The 20s cycle is on the fastest T1 named large hull rep. Don't know if there are faction/officer ones. T2 doesn't seem to exist, maybe CCP thought it'd be too much of a slap in the face of who ever won the lottery ^^ I've been playing around with other ships a bit, particularly ones with more midslots like ravens and scorps but an active hull tank is just not doable by any stretch of imagination - it needs buffing in some way or it's just plain useless. The only remotely viable option is buffering up with bulkheads but then you need to use your lowslots which means you could just as well armor tank really. The whole thing is bloody awful if you ask me
RayBanJockey	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:00:00 - [9] Sad part is, I should have known. For every moron playing EVE there is at least one resourceful person and for hull tanking not to have become any sort of aknowledged tanking standard by now - well that's sying something isn't it. Hull repairers as modules are seemingly only in the game so you don't have to spend money repairing in the station if you necessarily don't want to. I just hope there's one more resourceful person to balance me out
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:22:00 - [10] Originally by: RayBanJockey Sad part is, I should have known. For every moron playing EVE there is at least one resourceful person and for hull tanking not to have become any sort of aknowledged tanking standard by now - well that's sying something isn't it. Hull repairers as modules are seemingly only in the game so you don't have to spend money repairing in the station if you necessarily don't want to. I just hope there's one more resourceful person to balance me out I met somebody with a hell tanked pheonix (I'm not kidding)

Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:25:00 - [11] What will the hull resists be with 2 damage Control II units then? I asume they stack but with a penalty. ----------------------------------------------------------
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:31:00 - [12] Hull repairing doesn't work, simply because of the low amount of HP it repairs per cycle, making the DPS tanked too low to be viable. Hull Repairers means free fix to your hull if damaged. DCU means you buy yourself a few extra seconds to get away if your armor tank is broken. Considering the extra resists you also get to the Armor with a DCU, it makes the DCU the best "bang for the buck" module in the game in terms of resist and tanking. However, especially for Amarr ships, wasting already limited med slots for hull repairers when armor tanking works perfectly fine for Amarr, seems a bit pointless. It only seems like a good and/or fun thing to do, cause it's out of the norm and would make your tank seem unique in the world of cookiecutters that EVE is. At the end of the day though, we still only have two active tank methods... shield or armor. -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
Ashrade	Posted - 2008.08.22 09:34:00 - [13] Edited by: Ashrade on 22/08/2008 09:34:45 Quote: What will the hull resists be with 2 damage Control II units then? I asume they stack but with a penalty. You can only activate one of these mods at a time, fitting 2 is useless. edit: I think you can even only online 1 max
Strill	Posted - 2008.08.22 10:24:00 - [14] You can pull off 133 EHP/sec with a scorpion and hull repper IIs in all the mids. That's about the best you can possibly get. It's actually kinda surprising it can get that high.
Elhina Novae Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.08.22 11:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Wil Smithx Originally by: RayBanJockey Sad part is, I should have known. For every moron playing EVE there is at least one resourceful person and for hull tanking not to have become any sort of aknowledged tanking standard by now - well that's sying something isn't it. Hull repairers as modules are seemingly only in the game so you don't have to spend money repairing in the station if you necessarily don't want to. I just hope there's one more resourceful person to balance me out I met somebody with a hell tanked pheonix (I'm not kidding) Wait could that have been the old CEO we had...? ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
Iron Wraith	Posted - 2008.08.22 12:01:00 - [16] i ran those numbers a while back, i think my conclusion was that 1 armour rep was worth 8 hull reps i'd love to see hull tanking as a workable alternative, just for the fun of it. Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots: [2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.22 12:15:00 - [17] You people do know that reinforced bulkheads (a sucky module) recently got NERFED! they now use a silly 40 cpu!!! Yea, 40cpu... All this because the dominix was able to use them to get a buffer tank a few % better than a conventional plate tank, and a bit more powergrid free. bottom of this dev blog here: devblog, scroll to bottom So hull tanking is not supported by ccp, it is there to add fictional depth... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2008.08.22 12:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Dristra You people do know that reinforced bulkheads (a sucky module) recently got NERFED! they now use a silly 40 cpu!!! Yea, 40cpu... All this because the dominix was able to use them to get a buffer tank a few % better than a conventional plate tank, and a bit more powergrid free. bottom of this dev blog here: devblog, scroll to bottom So hull tanking is not supported by ccp, it is there to add fictional depth... Actually, that sounds like they were balancing it against its competitors, rather than trying to stamp it out altogether. "Yes, you can still hull tank, but now there is a price to be paid in fitting". I've looked at hull tanks in the past and while they're an interesting concept, there's a few points that stop them from being truly competitive. First up, as you noticed, active hull tanking isn't viable due to the long cycle times (which to be honest, is a good thing in my book). Secondly, when we consider buffer tanking there aren't any hull rigs - so while armour tankers can load up on Trimarks, there's nothing equivalent for the hull. Finally, even when looking at the modules all you get are the percentage-increase Bulkheads, and there's no equivalent of plates. When was the last time you saw buffer armour tanks use regenerative plating (+% armour HP) rather than plates (+x static amount of armour HP)? If you compare hull buffer tanking against armour buffer tanking that isn't allowed to use plates or trimarks, they're not far off. However, if you want to compare actual possibilities, the armour tank will always come out well on top for greatest EHP. The hull tanks can be surprisingly good though, and there's the psychological aspect too - people are unlikely to disengage when their target is in hull, which can be useful for bait ships, and also handy if you're playing dock/undock games (as the enemy will misjudge the situation and not deaggress until it's far too late)...
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.22 12:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: Dristra You people do know that reinforced bulkheads (a sucky module) recently got NERFED! they now use a silly 40 cpu!!! Yea, 40cpu... All this because the dominix was able to use them to get a buffer tank a few % better than a conventional plate tank, and a bit more powergrid free. bottom of this dev blog here: devblog, scroll to bottom So hull tanking is not supported by ccp, it is there to add fictional depth... Actually, that sounds like they were balancing it against its competitors, rather than trying to stamp it out altogether. "Yes, you can still hull tank, but now there is a price to be paid in fitting". I've looked at hull tanks in the past and while they're an interesting concept, there's a few points that stop them from being truly competitive. First up, as you noticed, active hull tanking isn't viable due to the long cycle times (which to be honest, is a good thing in my book). Secondly, when we consider buffer tanking there aren't any hull rigs - so while armour tankers can load up on Trimarks, there's nothing equivalent for the hull. Finally, even when looking at the modules all you get are the percentage-increase Bulkheads, and there's no equivalent of plates. When was the last time you saw buffer armour tanks use regenerative plating (+% armour HP) rather than plates (+x static amount of armour HP)? If you compare hull buffer tanking against armour buffer tanking that isn't allowed to use plates or trimarks, they're not far off. However, if you want to compare actual possibilities, the armour tank will always come out well on top for greatest EHP. The hull tanks can be surprisingly good though, and there's the psychological aspect too - people are unlikely to disengage when their target is in hull, which can be useful for bait ships, and also handy if you're playing dock/undock games (as the enemy will misjudge the situation and not deaggress until it's far too late)... Don't forget that currently if you feks buffertank a armageddon by armour you can fit 2 damage mods and still end up (unrigged) with more hp than a reinforced bulkhead tank that uses ALL 8 lowslots. The hull tank eats MORE cpu, than the whole armourtank + a t2 distruptor The hull tank saves 1500 grid, but now you don't have the cpu to fit anything that chould have needed that grid. So all in all, don't defend ccp at this point please. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.08.22 13:21:00 - [20] I can only think of one ship which I tested with a hull buffer/tank and thought, you know, this might actually work: the Moros. What you're looking for is a ship that starts out with more hull than armour/shield, can use it's med slots for something more useful and can still do damage. For the same reason a hull buffered phoenix with sensor boosters and target painters might 'work' aswell. So what about the Moros? 3x True Sansha heavy neut 1x drone link augmentor 2x omnidirectional drone link 2/3x sensor booster 0/1x large hull repper 1x dcu II 6x reinforced bulkhead 2x sentry damage augmentor rigs 5x sentry drones Without implants this has over 1m hull hp with 60%, it runs cap stable, even with a hull repper and does 1000+ dps with Garde II's (dread lvl 4), optimal over 40 km and tracking to kill even nano ships. 1000+ Dps means over 4000 salvo damage and Garde IIs can do 2500+ raw dmg wreckings on a dread 4 Moros. Downgrade to non faction neuts, insure Moros and have a ship that ****s any camp (the sentry drones are very hard to kill, have like 15k EHP each with a sickly low sig radius. And you can carry 20 of em. If a moros costs 1.6B, fitting is 50M and insurance 350M you lose 400M per lost moros.. which is pretty much nothing compared to a bunch of tripple rigged t2 fitted BS.. According to EFT it has 3.3M EHP (everything t2 but the rigs) A 'normal-ish' moros fit would be something like this I suppose: 3x Ion Siege Blaster/dual 1000mm rail 1x Siege Module 1x sensor booster 1x warp disruptor 3x cap recharger 1x DCU 3x hardener 2x EANM 1x Cap Repper 3x Trimark 5x sentry Does more dps with blasters (at pretty crappy range, you need siege which gives you like 4x the dps at 10km), 2.7m EHP according to EFT, 6 mins cap wise, but actually tanking. Bit more expensive with these mods and rigs, half a mil EHP less than the hull tanker and can be neuted to tank failure. The funny thing is, if you take a full slave set, 5% hull, shield, armour hardwirings, they end up about the same EHP.. The hull moros is like a nasty surprise if you can jump a few in at the price of 2 t2 fitted BS and a higher initial investment. But in the end, even a fine drone ship like the moros is usually better off armour tanked. The main issue with any hull tanking set up is that as soon as you might get logistics/active tanking involved, hull repping fails, be it remote or personal. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..

Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.08.22 13:35:00 - [21] REMOTE HULL REPS Don't waste mid slots on repairing your own hull. Have a friend do it for you. The remote hull reps cycle way faster. Remote hull rep gang ftw! <I found out about it when I was messing around and realized I got repped much faster this way than doing it myself> Just use a DCU and bulkheads - and a friend with a remote hull rep. CCP introduce hull rep drones! __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.08.22 13:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Keitaro Baka on 22/08/2008 13:40:27 Originally by: Omarvelous REMOTE HULL REPS Don't waste mid slots on repairing your own hull. Have a friend do it for you. The remote hull reps cycle way faster. Remote hull rep gang ftw! <I found out about it when I was messing around and realized I got repped much faster this way than doing it myself> Just use a DCU and bulkheads - and a friend with a remote hull rep. CCP introduce hull rep drones! have you seen the cap usage of remote hull reps? edit: also keep in mind there is no ship with remote hull rep range bonus unlike armour and shield.. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Kuyira	Posted - 2008.08.22 14:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer I always think of the DCU as the "fight untill you win or die" module when I fly frigs, but on bigger ships it's the "mayday" module that gives you a chance to bail our if things go from bad to really bad (and your not scrammed). There's a little bit more to a DCU. 2x EANM + DCU give better resistences than 3x EANM
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.08.22 14:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Keitaro Baka Edited by: Keitaro Baka on 22/08/2008 13:40:27 Originally by: Omarvelous REMOTE HULL REPS Don't waste mid slots on repairing your own hull. Have a friend do it for you. The remote hull reps cycle way faster. Remote hull rep gang ftw! <I found out about it when I was messing around and realized I got repped much faster this way than doing it myself> Just use a DCU and bulkheads - and a friend with a remote hull rep. CCP introduce hull rep drones! have you seen the cap usage of remote hull reps? edit: also keep in mind there is no ship with remote hull rep range bonus unlike armour and shield.. I'm not seriously suggesting people RR-hull tank. I was just mentioning how it cycles much faster - so when your BS comes out of a fight with 4% structure left - its faster to have a friend remote hull rep you - than doing it yourself. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.08.22 14:39:00 - [25] Originally by: Kuyira Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer I always think of the DCU as the "fight untill you win or die" module when I fly frigs, but on bigger ships it's the "mayday" module that gives you a chance to bail our if things go from bad to really bad (and your not scrammed). There's a little bit more to a DCU. 2x EANM + DCU give better resistences than 3x EANM Yes I know, buy when I think about fitting the frigs. That module will determine the ships mentality (win or die). If I plan on actually having a backdoor in the fight, then I usually fit 2xEANM + SAR (well depends, but the point is that when I go hull in the fitting, I'm dead or dying.)
Noelle Fay SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Originally by: Kuyira Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer I always think of the DCU as the "fight untill you win or die" module when I fly frigs, but on bigger ships it's the "mayday" module that gives you a chance to bail our if things go from bad to really bad (and your not scrammed). There's a little bit more to a DCU. 2x EANM + DCU give better resistences than 3x EANM Yes I know, buy when I think about fitting the frigs. That module will determine the ships mentality (win or die). If I plan on actually having a backdoor in the fight, then I usually fit 2xEANM + SAR (well depends, but the point is that when I go hull in the fitting, I'm dead or dying.) They give shield and armor resists as well and use next to zero cap.. runs under neut. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke.


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