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Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.22 14:36:00 - [1] I'll take it short. Let's have a look to all force recon ships bonuses. FORCE RECON SHIPS Amarr - Pilgrim Cruiser bonus: Tracking Disruptor + Drones Recon bonus: Energy Vampire and Neutralizers Minmatar - Rapier Cruiser bonus: Target Painters + Turrets ROF Recon bonus: Stasis Webifier Gallente - Arazu Cruiser bonus: Remote Sensor Dampeners + Turret Damage Recon bonus: Warp Disruptor Caldari - Falcon Cruiser bonus: ECM + ECM Recon bonus: ECM Why the caldari's recon got a double bonus on the Cruiser skill? And why it got the same bonus on the Recon skill? It is the only ship getting bonuses on the same thing, wondering why people is whining? I'm not complaining here, just trying to show the evidence: the falcon is not inline. Give it 3 different bonuses, like every other force recon ship, or give other recons bonuses on only one thing.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 15:04:00 - [2] Well suggest a dif. bonus.. guns? useless, one bonus is not enoguh to sniper, and no fittings anyway, otherwise itd be a wasrted bonus with such long range ecm tank? lol uses mids for ecm drones? lol since when has a cal boat got drone bonus's? (wld be useless anyway as ur very far out) speed? Also useless, it can fit a cloak, why does it need to be fast? it cant tackle. Somerandomnewstyleinnovative bonus? Yeah right then every1 else wld also want Somerandomnewstyleinnovative bonus to make them feel special. Oh yeah and theres not much anyone canthink of thatd be cool anyway. poudly annoying fc's since 2007 The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738
Ridjeck Thome The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.22 15:15:00 - [3] well, flying Amarr, I'm happy to swap our current recons bonuses for yours...look, you get an extra one free!
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 15:17:00 - [4] Edited by: BiggestT on 22/08/2008 15:17:56 Originally by: Ridjeck Thome well, flying Amarr, I'm happy to swap our current recons bonuses for yours...look, you get an extra one free! thats not the discussion, at least have a small idea how it shld be changed or dont ask for it to be changed lol! edit: typo poudly annoying fc's since 2007 The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738
Ridjeck Thome The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.22 15:20:00 - [5] Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 22/08/2008 15:17:56 Originally by: Ridjeck Thome well, flying Amarr, I'm happy to swap our current recons bonuses for yours...look, you get an extra one free! thats not the discussion, at least have a small idea how it shld be changed or dont ask for it to be changed lol! edit: typo oh, we are talking about Recons being 'inline' with the others then eh? - ok, how about the Amarr recon not getting a range bonus like the other recons?..... hence my suggestion.....
Commoner Caldari Empire Harassment	Posted - 2008.08.22 15:26:00 - [6] For Amarr, what about a bonus which minimizes the limit for which you can drain energy with a Nosferatu? Like something at lvl 5 you can drain energy like you did pre-nerf with nosferatu?. For that you'd have to remove the tracking disruptor bonus, or split the tracking/nos bonus between the force/combat recons. Same with gallente, switch the disruptor bonus for another bonus: *7.5% dampener efficiency or 10% bonus to optimal range of dampeners. Again with gallente you could also diffrentiate between combat/force recons.
Grann Thefauto Minmatar Running with Knives	Posted - 2008.08.22 16:13:00 - [7] Just give it a missile ROF bonus. Then its pretty much exactly in line with the others.
supr3m3justic3 Caldari ACE'S OVER 8'S	Posted - 2008.08.22 16:27:00 - [8] Well then drop the range bonus for the ecm...and give us 2 or 3 more launchers + cloak and a damage or flight time bonus for the launchers....o wait thats the rook....haha hahah aha.... __________________________________________________
bldyannoyed Un4seen Forces	Posted - 2008.08.22 16:30:00 - [9] So you want a nerf to the Falcon in other words? Because thats what a bonus change would be. The Falcon is currently the single most effective EWAR ship in the game, precisely because it has 3 bonuses to ECM. Many people argue that as it stabds the ship is very overpowered and should be nerfed anyway. And besides, it is 100% INLINE with the other Recons, or at least it was untill the BlackBird had it's bonuses changed. Before the change ALL 4 Force Recons has the same bonuses as their Tech1 counterpart. The Blackbird had ECM cap use and range, just like te Falcon does. When ECM was nerfed, the Recons had their ECM sytrength bonus boosted from 5% to 10% to compensate, and the BlackBird had it's cap use bonus changed to ECM Strength. The Falcon wasn't changed because it already had a strength bonus. So basically, barring a slight rejig, the Falcon follows the pattern of the othe recons perfectly. Same bonuses as its tech1 hull, plus an additional EWAR bonus for the Recon skill.
Ms Lipstick	Posted - 2008.08.22 16:42:00 - [10] And the Blackbird is totally inline with all the other t1 ew cruisers, right? right?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Ms Lipstick And the Blackbird is totally inline with all the other t1 ew cruisers, right? right? yes
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Grann Thefauto Just give it a missile ROF bonus. Then its pretty much exactly in line with the others. Add another 3 high slots, plus a missile velocity bonus so the missiles can actually get anywhere, then you're talking. You know the Falcon has a grand total of 2 (count 'em) missile slots, right? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Grann Thefauto Just give it a missile ROF bonus. Then its pretty much exactly in line with the others. Add another 3 high slots, plus a missile velocity bonus so the missiles can actually get anywhere, then you're talking. You know the Falcon has a grand total of 2 (count 'em) missile slots, right? One of them is reversed for cloak ... so actually it has only 1 launcher slot.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:19:00 - [14] If we want to balance the Recons, the simplest step is to give the other recons one of the Falcon's 2 main EW advantages These are (1) Range (2) Low slot EW strength mods: Signal distortion amplifiers Change the Signal Distort Amp so that it works on Tracking Disruptors, Sensor Damps and Target Painters. If you want Falcon-class EW strength, then you have to use a Falcon-style EW fit: sacrifice your tank, damage and speed for it. Giving the other recons the same optimal range as the falcon I feel would be a mistake for 2 reasons; (i) Other EWs are not chance-based. 1 Arazu/Lach could disable as many fleet BS as it had damps fitted, for instance. Likewise the Pilgrim/Curse. Target Painters are different - giving these longer range might actually work, but I'm not sure how this would be implemented. Would Huginn pilots want to trade off, say, the missile RoF bonus for a TP range bonus? (ii) Why fly a falcon if it loses it's only advantage over he other recons, which can do so many other things it cannot dream of. Finally, boost ECCM by making it a sensor booster script, so that ECM is not longer the only EW that you have to use a dedicated module to counter that has no other use. Hey presto, there's Mal's 3-point plan for boosting the other race's recons, combined with a minor effective ECCM nerf. (ii) Other recons trade off long EW range for a strong medium range secondary ability, which the Falcon lacks CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Grann Thefauto Just give it a missile ROF bonus. Then its pretty much exactly in line with the others. Add another 3 high slots, plus a missile velocity bonus so the missiles can actually get anywhere, then you're talking. You know the Falcon has a grand total of 2 (count 'em) missile slots, right? One of them is reversed for cloak ... so actually it has only 1 launcher slot. It has 4 highslots, so 2 launchers, cloak, and whatever else.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:39:00 - [16] Well two or one missile slots ,who cares. It still cant do much with them even if those were bonused ones.
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.22 17:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Commoner For Amarr, what about a bonus which minimizes the limit for which you can drain energy with a Nosferatu? Like something at lvl 5 you can drain energy like you did pre-nerf with nosferatu?. For that you'd have to remove the tracking disruptor bonus, or split the tracking/nos bonus between the force/combat recons. Same with gallente, switch the disruptor bonus for another bonus: *7.5% dampener efficiency or 10% bonus to optimal range of dampeners. Again with gallente you could also diffrentiate between combat/force recons. NO you do NOT fapping increase the range of dampeners, you're idea is bad. The only thing (if any) that they need is a 10% bonus to strength of dampeners. Not range. If you get your skills to where they need to be the optimal of the RSD is right around your warp scramble range, so you dont need it. Hell, if they just switch the fall off and optimal ranges around, and then gave us a 7.5% to effectiveness it would be ok. I have come to be quite satisfied with the performance of my arazu, and it will be even more Just Fine post speed patch. A few of my colleagues are in agreement that the arazu is fine. Key thing to remember: Recons are not supposed to be, nor should not be, solo ships. Thus if you pair up the recons with their appropriate gangmates (a huginn/rapier for example) they are phenomenal for that simple fact of: not chance based (as long as you stay in your ~45km optimal.
Elppin Tsaerb Caldari Setenta Corp	Posted - 2008.08.22 18:44:00 - [18] Everyone is, of course, keeping in mind that the Falcon's Ewar is chance based and all other Recon's Ewar work every single time you activate them (in range...), right? Nothing worse than missing a jam cycle at exactly the wrong time...
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.08.22 18:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Elppin Tsaerb Everyone is, of course, keeping in mind that the Falcon's Ewar is chance based Yes. Thats exactly why it is possible to perma jam a carrier with a damned Falcon.
Elppin Tsaerb Caldari Setenta Corp	Posted - 2008.08.22 19:03:00 - [20] Exactly. It's possible, but not guaranteed. Sometimes ECM pilots get lucky...sometimes not.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.08.22 19:05:00 - [21] Change the optimal range bonus to a missile or hybrid bonus, or even ECCM. Now it's somewhat in line with the others. I say somewhat because jammers will still hit from 72km away. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.22 19:10:00 - [22] don't fix something that is not broken. . .Falcons are near overpowered. . .a good reason for that is that they do the ECM thing very well. . .those bonus' are what make the Falcon such a good ship. Try not to mess that up? ---- GO BLUE!!
Manu Hermanus IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Elppin Tsaerb Everyone is, of course, keeping in mind that the Falcon's Ewar is chance based Yes. Thats exactly why it is possible to perma jam a carrier with a damned Falcon. yea I can totally do that!
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Elppin Tsaerb Everyone is, of course, keeping in mind that the Falcon's Ewar is chance based Yes. Thats exactly why it is possible to perma jam a carrier with a damned Falcon. You're confusing "lucky" and "perma". They mean different things. Either that or you know how to get your falcon's jamming strength up to 60 - 80 in which case hit me up in game to make some ISK. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Spaztick Change the optimal range bonus to a missile or hybrid bonus, or even ECCM. Now it's somewhat in line with the others. I say somewhat because jammers will still hit from 72km away. And Falcon/Rook get a 40m^3 drone bay and a nifty secondary EW, right? To keep them "somewhat inline"? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ravn Silverclaw Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:38:00 - [26] I'll just modify your post a bit to eliminate things that are useless FORCE RECON SHIPS Amarr - Pilgrim Cruiser bonus: Tracking Disruptor + Drones Recon bonus: Energy Vampire and Neutralizers Minmatar - Rapier Cruiser bonus: Target Painters + Turrets ROF Recon bonus: Stasis Webifier Gallente - Arazu Cruiser bonus: ~~Remote Sensor Dampeners~~ + Turret Damage Recon bonus: ~~Warp Disruptor~~ Caldari - Falcon Cruiser bonus: ECM + ECM Recon bonus: ECM
Srioghal moDhream	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:40:00 - [27] To combat a falcon, just use eccm. If you don't want to use eccm, too bad that's your decision. And yes I know a falcon can still jam you if you have an eccm. But if everyone in your gang/fleet had one equipped it could not spread itself so thin and would have to focus on one or two targets, usually the ones that can destroy it.
Ravn Silverclaw Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Srioghal moDhream To combat a falcon, just use eccm. If you don't want to use eccm, too bad that's your decision. And yes I know a falcon can still jam you if you have an eccm. But if everyone in your gang/fleet had one equipped it could not spread itself so thin and would have to focus on one or two targets, usually the ones that can destroy it. Thanks, I'll make this my standard fit [Megathron, lol] Damage Control II 2x1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 3xMagnetic Field Stabilizer II ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II 7xNeutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 3xTrimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5
Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.22 22:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Ravn Silverclaw Originally by: Srioghal moDhream To combat a falcon, just use eccm. If you don't want to use eccm, too bad that's your decision. And yes I know a falcon can still jam you if you have an eccm. But if everyone in your gang/fleet had one equipped it could not spread itself so thin and would have to focus on one or two targets, usually the ones that can destroy it. Thanks, I'll make this my standard fit [Megathron, lol] Damage Control II 2x1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 3xMagnetic Field Stabilizer II ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II ECCM - Magnetometric II 7xNeutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 3xTrimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 A bit melodramatic don't you think?
Ravn Silverclaw Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.22 22:07:00 - [30] Originally by: Christina Bamar A bit melodramatic don't you think? Meh it's late, I'm allowed to cause a bit of drama. This is the drama-online forums after all.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.08.22 22:23:00 - [31] tbh, cap use bonus really isn't that useful, unless you plan on perma running 6-7 multispecs I'm all for swapping that for something else, but to be double honest, theres nothing you could make it unless you wanna redesign the ship. It has no dps (2 launchers lawl), no drone bay, and its low and mid slots are all used for its ewar. I'd suggest boosting damps and polishing the pilgrim/post-nerf rapier before you go nerfing the falcon. Also, swap damp optimal and falloff values before you give it a optimal range bonus, lawls. while your falcon pilot warps off in a pod, baffled at why his FC Borat can't learn to not pyramid-quote.
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:53:00 - [32] Originally by: BiggestT Well suggest a dif. bonus.. guns? useless tank? lol drones? lol speed? Also useless Those bonuses are useless fot the other recons too, but they got them! Do you really think that a damage bonus is usefull on an arazu? Or a Rof bonus on the Rapier? They are recons, they should all be good at 1 task, not good for damage, and they clearly are not, so those bonuses are useless and giving focused bonuses on the falcon make it unbalanced. Originally by: Srioghal moDhream To combat a falcon, just use eccm. If you don't want to use eccm, too bad that's your decision. ECCM are not worh fitting them. Seriously, try them, even with 3 techII you will still be a blind pigeon.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.23 17:15:00 - [33] Most the other recon ships (Minmatar and Amarr especially) are extremely deadly ships, even solo. People die to Curses, Huginns, etc all the time When was the last time a Falcon killed anything? Note also how it's required to use all the lowslots+medslots to actually be effective at doing that. None of the other Recons have that drawback. Falcon has to sacrifice everything to be any good at it's role. It dosen't need a nerf. - Infectious -
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:26:00 - [34] It is the most effective gang ship and the other recons should be as good as it. We got enough solo ships (and btw this is an online multiplayer game). What it is needed is recons being able to counter other recons.
Burn Mac Minmatar Burning Steel Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:52:00 - [35] Edited by: Burn Mac on 23/08/2008 19:52:50 Originally by: Ravn Silverclaw I'll just modify your post a bit to eliminate things that are useless FORCE RECON SHIPS Amarr - Pilgrim Cruiser bonus: Tracking Disruptor + Drones Recon bonus: ~~Energy Vampire~~ and Neutralizers Minmatar - Rapier Cruiser bonus: ~~Target Painters~~ + Turrets ROF Recon bonus: Stasis Webifier Gallente - Arazu Cruiser bonus: ~~Remote Sensor Dampeners~~ + Turret Damage Recon bonus: Warp Disruptor Caldari - Falcon Cruiser bonus: ECM + ECM Recon bonus: ECM so now i fixed your post.
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:38:00 - [36] Originally by: Burn Mac Edited by: Burn Mac on 23/08/2008 19:52:50 Originally by: Ravn Silverclaw I'll just modify your post a bit to eliminate things that are useless FORCE RECON SHIPS Amarr - Pilgrim Cruiser bonus: Tracking Disruptor + Drones Recon bonus: ~~Energy Vampire~~ and Neutralizers Minmatar - Rapier Cruiser bonus: ~~Target Painters~~ + Turrets ROF Recon bonus: Stasis Webifier Gallente - Arazu Cruiser bonus: ~~Remote Sensor Dampeners~~ + Turret Damage Recon bonus: Warp Disruptor Caldari - Falcon Cruiser bonus: ECM + ECM Recon bonus: ECM so now i fixed your post. That is sadly true.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:36:00 - [37] My Arazu ****s your Falcon :)
Kano Sekor Amarr The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.23 22:06:00 - [38] fix so that fitting one eccm cuts your jam cycle by 50% fitting two means you get jammed 5 sec each cycle? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.24 08:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Kano Sekor fix so that fitting one eccm cuts your jam cycle by 50% fitting two means you get jammed 5 sec each cycle? Interesting
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:39:00 - [40] Originally by: Asuka SoryuLangley It is the most effective gang ship and the other recons should be as good as it. We got enough solo ships (and btw this is an online multiplayer game). What it is needed is recons being able to counter other recons. It's an interesting idea that recons OUGHT to be used to counter other recons. Unfortunately, no amount of boosting is EVER going to make a minnie recon a good counter for a Falcon as an example - minnie EWAR just doesn't work that way. That being said, both Caldari HAC's are excellent anti-support ships. Unfortunately, the other races HAC's traded singular purpose for greater general combat utility. Perhaps the HAC class, which people are already widely moaning about being useless when the nerf hasn't happened yet, should be looked at as the "anti-support" class. They are already fairly insulated against the falcon's EWAR, with fairly high sensor strength (for cruisers).
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:08:00 - [41] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 24/08/2008 10:09:54 Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 24/08/2008 10:08:34 Yep, another completely un-original Falcon whine, full of bad assumptions and poor understanding of game design/mechanics. Instead of whining about how many bonuses each ship has, why not actually look at the end result: Rapier: not even relevant to the discussion, as it has a completely different role. The Falcon's job is to shut down the biggest threats in the enemy fleet. The Rapier's job is to web/paint the primary target so everyone in the fleet hits it for full damage. There is absolutely no overlap in these roles. Pilgrim: the Pilgrim sucks because the Pilgrim sucks, not because the Falcon is good. Even if CCP deleted every single Falcon, there still wouldn't be a good Pilgrim setup that doesn't involve cargo expanders. Arazu: finally at least some overlap. Except there really isn't. Note that the Arazu has bonuses to two different ewar types because it has two different jobs: tackle AND ewar. Which, in the scenarios where you actually use a Gallente ship (solo and very small gang PvP) is BETTER than the Falcon since it fills two roles with only one pilot, while the Falcon uses up a pilot to only do one thing. In fact, for everything besides removing hostile ECM ships, the Arazu is a much better ship for a 1-3 man gang. Now, there are three problems with the Arazu, one of them solved already: 1) The damp nerf was massive overkill, and the Arazu should have been given an increased bonus to compensate, or at least a SDA equivalent to trade low slots for some of its power back. Like with the ECM nerf, specialized ships should be less nerfed than the "spare mid slot on a PvP ship? Fit a damp of course" problems. 2) Solo/small-gang PvP is less and less common. This doesn't say anything about the Falcon and Arazu, it just says that larger fleets are prefered over 1-3 man gangs. Obviously if you're flying a 20 man gang, you take the fleet ewar ship, not the small-gang ewar ship. 3) Solo-small-gang PvP has been dominated by nano ships recently. The Arazu's ewar depends on being able to keep out of range of the target, and the Arazu is just slower than nano-HACs. The result: in the role where the Arazu is supposed to be useful, it's just a suicide ship. Fly an Arazu against a nano-HAC, and your lifespan is measured in seconds, it just MWDs up to you and ganks you. It doesn't matter how effective you are at damping the target's range when the target is fast enough to put itself at any arbitrary range it feels like, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Once the speed nerf is released, expect the Arazu to become quite a bit more useful. If the MWD shutdown effect stays on warp scramblers, expect it to be REALLY useful. But please, if you're going to whine about ships, at least take the time to understand what their roles are supposed to be before you make stupid posts.
Satura Most Wanted INC	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:49:00 - [42] Quote: I'm not complaining here [...] the falcon is not inline Not complaining, eh?

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