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Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.27 20:31:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Derek Sigres
I'm not kind hearted enough towards the nerf brigade to even BEGIN to belive that forcing a falcon into closer ranges or giving it lower sensor strength will satisfy them. Their goal all along seems to be to eleminate any module, ship or strategy that provides an alternate path to success other than firepower and tank. Nerf the falcon to uselessness and the rook becomes the new hate target. Nerf that and it's the scorpion. Then the blackbird and so on down the line until the caldari ECM ship lineup is neutered like the gallente recons.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 23:47:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 27/08/2008 23:49:14
Lol@ using cruise ravens as falcon counters.
Good falcon pilots would just warp between two points on the battlefield and laugh at your slow ass missiles.
Cruise raven is good anti-support, just not against falcons. I'd like to see any of you actually show a fight where this actually worked. You cant.
Also, in this hypothetical 5 falcon+ 5 bs vs 5 anti-support vs 5 BS, the 5 falcons can easilly permajam all 5 anti-support, the bs would focus fire the said anti-support which have basically no tank and melt them. By the time one of their BS goes down you will have lost all your anti-support.
Now its 5 falcons+4 bs vs 5 bs, guess who wins?
Best counter to a falcon is another falcon, stop pretending otherwise or coming up with ******ed fleet builds that dont actually work.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:59:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/08/2008 00:01:15
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/08/2008 00:00:05
Originally by: Gamesguy
Lol@ using cruise ravens as falcon counters.
Good falcon pilots would just warp between two points on the battlefield and laugh at your slow ass missiles.
Cruise raven is good anti-support, just not against falcons. I'd like to see any of you actually show a fight where this actually worked. You cant.
Also, in this hypothetical 5 falcon+ 5 bs vs 5 anti-support vs 5 BS, the 5 falcons can easilly permajam all 5 anti-support, the bs would focus fire the said anti-support which have basically no tank and melt them. By the time one of their BS goes down you will have lost all your anti-support.
Now its 5 falcons+4 bs vs 5 bs, guess who wins?
Best counter to a falcon is another falcon, stop pretending otherwise or coming up with ******ed fleet builds that dont actually work.
Ok, I hereby invoke nano ishtars as the counter to Falcons. Mids = MWD, LCB, WD II, 2x ECCM
-Liang
Ed: I elected to switch an LSE for an LCB so that you can actually MWD indefinitely.
Ed2: I'd also like to point out that an Arazu can handily damp Falcons down. These amazing mystical falcons that everyone's talking about (240km falcons) can handily be damped down to ~35km... and 20km if it's a bog standard no sensor booster falcon).
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:11:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ok, I hereby invoke nano ishtars as the counter to Falcons. Mids = MWD, LCB, WD II, 2x ECCM
-Liang
Ed: I elected to switch an LSE for an LCB so that you can actually MWD indefinitely.
Ed2: I'd also like to point out that an Arazu can handily damp Falcons down. These amazing mystical falcons that everyone's talking about (240km falcons) can handily be damped down to ~35km... and 20km if it's a bog standard no sensor booster falcon).
An apoc one volleys your slow ass nano-ishtar with no buffer and sig radius of a dread, next.
You've obviously never flown an arazu, check the optimal range on damps and then get back to me.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:19:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Edited by: Gamesguy on 27/08/2008 23:49:14
Lol@ using cruise ravens as falcon counters.
Good falcon pilots would just warp between two points on the battlefield and laugh at your slow ass missiles.
Cruise raven is good anti-support, just not against falcons. I'd like to see any of you actually show a fight where this actually worked. You cant.
Also, in this hypothetical 5 falcon+ 5 bs vs 5 anti-support vs 5 BS, the 5 falcons can easilly permajam all 5 anti-support, the bs would focus fire the said anti-support which have basically no tank and melt them. By the time one of their BS goes down you will have lost all your anti-support.
Now its 5 falcons+4 bs vs 5 bs, guess who wins?
Best counter to a falcon is another falcon, stop pretending otherwise or coming up with ******ed fleet builds that dont actually work.
Your last point has been covered again and again, I won't bother with it again.
If you take this skewed scenario and skew it more by assuming the falons have prepared the battlefield in advance (for those bookmarks to warp to) and have the optimal jammer selection, and assume that the opposing battleships have the capability to rapidly respond to the Anti-Support fleet group.
To the first point, having prepared the battlefield in advance means the falcon fleet has further modified their combat multipliers. But really, lets face the facts here - it isn't often a falcon gets the opportunity to make those pereparations. If they have, in order to overcome the increase in combat effectiveness of the obviously prepared gang you need to increase your own combat potential - either through similar preparation of increasing the numbers in your own gang.
To the second point, falcons will, by and large have no more than 6 jammers. Using a standard mix you'll find the average falcon carries exactly TWO caldari racial jammers. This gives the ECM heavy fleet 10 caldari jammers to apply against 5 battleships - each with a sensor strength in excess of 60. This works out to roughly a 50% chance to jam per raven meaning, assuming anormal distribution of jams between 2 and 3 ravens remain unjammed. A raven can handily achieve lock and fire on a falcon in the 20 second span, and that volley WILL drive the falcon away, either through warpout before the volley arrives on scene, by warpout after the volley arrives on scene (and removes fully half the falcon's EHP) or by destruction if the falcon stays long enough for the second volley to hit.
To the third point - the gang in question has been implicitly given as a set of standard small gang battleship configurations. This means they have a focus on EHP and short ranged firepower - in other words, Blaster boats, drone ships, autocannnon ships or torpedo ravens. Simply put the ships in question simply cannot engage the support fleet in anything approaching a timely manner. The Ravens on the other hand have the ability to project their own 500 or so DPS out to the lock limit.
As far as showing you a fight where this scenario plays out one way or another, good luck finding it. You don't often collect 5 falcon pilots together, and when you do the gang is probably going to be FAR larger than 10 ships. The opposing gang isn't used simply because Eve players have a propensity to assume sacrifices in EFT numbers (i.e. dps, ehp etc) reduce your effectiveness in a very general way, yet they rarely consider the synergetic implications at play. You will find that in mid sized gangs a balanced fleet can easily best an imbalanced firepower only fleet easily.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:22:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ok, I hereby invoke nano ishtars as the counter to Falcons. Mids = MWD, LCB, WD II, 2x ECCM
-Liang
Ed: I elected to switch an LSE for an LCB so that you can actually MWD indefinitely.
Ed2: I'd also like to point out that an Arazu can handily damp Falcons down. These amazing mystical falcons that everyone's talking about (240km falcons) can handily be damped down to ~35km... and 20km if it's a bog standard no sensor booster falcon).
An apoc one volleys your slow ass nano-ishtar with no buffer and sig radius of a dread, next.
You've obviously never flown an arazu, check the optimal range on damps and then get back to me.
The apoc one volleys an Ishtar? I want an apoc that has an alpha of 14k or so.
And if you have a snipe apoc handy why not shoot the falcon? I mean, this is the common argument isn't it? Snipers counter falcons. When this is pointed out people say "most gangs don't have snipers".
Flexible argumetns to always generate the worst case scenario for a counter argument may be fun but ultimately you prove nothing.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:23:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/08/2008 00:24:05
Double post. Link sucked and I meant to edit.
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:24:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Gamesguy
You've obviously never flown an arazu, check the optimal range on damps and then get back to me.
link
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:26:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Gamesguy
An apoc one volleys your slow ass nano-ishtar with no buffer and sig radius of a dread, next.
Also, I want to ask just wtf happened.. only a few months ago you were telling me that an Ishtar could tank an arbitrarily large number of pulse Zealots because it went so fast and EM was such a crappy damage type.
Not to say "I told you so" or anything.
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:29:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
The apoc one volleys an Ishtar? I want an apoc that has an alpha of 14k or so.
And if you have a snipe apoc handy why not shoot the falcon? I mean, this is the common argument isn't it? Snipers counter falcons. When this is pointed out people say "most gangs don't have snipers".
Flexible argumetns to always generate the worst case scenario for a counter argument may be fun but ultimately you prove nothing.
Untanked ishtar has roughly 10k EHP against scorch. Who said anything about a sniper apoc? Pulse apoc/geddon/abaddon would do just fine.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:32:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Untanked ishtar has roughly 10k EHP against scorch. Who said anything about a sniper apoc? Pulse apoc/geddon/abaddon would do just fine.
And your pulse apoc is going to hit my Ishtar 240km away how?
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:32:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gamesguy
You've obviously never flown an arazu, check the optimal range on damps and then get back to me.
link
Congrats, you attempted to damp an idiot in a falcon that fits ****ing cap rechargers and multispecs. You do know the km doesnt show if your damps actually worked or not, or the range it was at, etc.
Damps have an optimal for 45km with 90km falloff, you wont be doing shit to a falcon 200km away.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:33:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gamesguy
Untanked ishtar has roughly 10k EHP against scorch. Who said anything about a sniper apoc? Pulse apoc/geddon/abaddon would do just fine.
And your pulse apoc is going to hit my Ishtar 240km away how?
-Liang
I didnt realize your ishtar had a magical teleportation device that teleports it 200km in the blink of an eye. My mistake.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:34:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gamesguy
An apoc one volleys your slow ass nano-ishtar with no buffer and sig radius of a dread, next.
Also, I want to ask just wtf happened.. only a few months ago you were telling me that an Ishtar could tank an arbitrarily large number of pulse Zealots because it went so fast and EM was such a crappy damage type.
Not to say "I told you so" or anything.
-Liang
Hmm, I couldve sworen I said nano-ishtar is one of the few ships a pulse zealot will ass ****...oh wait, I did.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.28 00:46:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Derek Sigres
The apoc one volleys an Ishtar? I want an apoc that has an alpha of 14k or so.
And if you have a snipe apoc handy why not shoot the falcon? I mean, this is the common argument isn't it? Snipers counter falcons. When this is pointed out people say "most gangs don't have snipers".
Flexible argumetns to always generate the worst case scenario for a counter argument may be fun but ultimately you prove nothing.
Untanked ishtar has roughly 10k EHP against scorch. Who said anything about a sniper apoc? Pulse apoc/geddon/abaddon would do just fine.
Except pulse Apocs have less alpha than beam apocs. . .
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 01:11:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Derek Sigres
The apoc one volleys an Ishtar? I want an apoc that has an alpha of 14k or so.
And if you have a snipe apoc handy why not shoot the falcon? I mean, this is the common argument isn't it? Snipers counter falcons. When this is pointed out people say "most gangs don't have snipers".
Flexible argumetns to always generate the worst case scenario for a counter argument may be fun but ultimately you prove nothing.
Untanked ishtar has roughly 10k EHP against scorch. Who said anything about a sniper apoc? Pulse apoc/geddon/abaddon would do just fine.
Except pulse Apocs have less alpha than beam apocs. . .
Far faster rof, a nanoishtar will die in under 15 seconds against a pulse abaddon/apoc/geddon with scorch.
Given the ishtar's slow speed(especially post nerf) and acceleration, it wont make it out of range before it dies.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.28 01:16:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Far faster rof, a nanoishtar will die in under 15 seconds against a pulse abaddon/apoc/geddon with scorch.
Given the ishtar's slow speed(especially post nerf) and acceleration, it wont make it out of range before it dies.
Except your argument said "one shot" not "many shots in short time". I'm not arguing that an apoc can murder an Ishtar. Just pointing out the falacy of stating you can one shot the thing.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.28 01:51:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Gamesguy
Far faster rof, a nanoishtar will die in under 15 seconds against a pulse abaddon/apoc/geddon with scorch.
Given the ishtar's slow speed(especially post nerf) and acceleration, it wont make it out of range before it dies.
Except your argument said "one shot" not "many shots in short time". I'm not arguing that an apoc can murder an Ishtar. Just pointing out the falacy of stating you can one shot the thing.
Its an expression. If I say "in the blink of an eye", I dont actually mean in 300 milliseconds.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.28 02:25:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Gamesguy
An apoc one volleys your slow ass nano-ishtar with no buffer and sig radius of a dread, next.
You definitly said one volleys and made no mention of a span of time. Geez - stop trying to argue out of this silly point when you havn't ninja edited your post yet 
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.08.28 02:37:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Lorz0r
Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS
You are totally 100% full of shit. Do the math on that. Go calculate the probability of permanently jamming 3 battleships....they can even be the same race....say for 5 cycles. Don't forget that a falcon will need a sensor booster to jam at that range...so subtract 1 ECM from the mids... and we'll assume the falcon pilot isn't using a MWD either...
ECCM works fine. It works more than fine. Even without it, if your gane allows a falcon to get off more than 1 cycle of jams, you're either an idiot or your gang is WAY too restrictive.
Countering a falcon is EASY. Adapt or die.
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Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:55:00 -
[141]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Lorz0r
Falcon is 180km away so it still proceeds to permajam 2-3 battleships even with ECCM (I have NEVER seen a falcon within 60km of my BS
You are totally 100% full of shit. Do the math on that. Go calculate the probability of permanently jamming 3 battleships....they can even be the same race....say for 5 cycles. Don't forget that a falcon will need a sensor booster to jam at that range...so subtract 1 ECM from the mids... and we'll assume the falcon pilot isn't using a MWD either...
ECCM works fine. It works more than fine. Even without it, if your gane allows a falcon to get off more than 1 cycle of jams, you're either an idiot or your gang is WAY too restrictive.
Countering a falcon is EASY. Adapt or die.
This 
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 07:18:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Gamesguy
I didnt realize your ishtar had a magical teleportation device that teleports it 200km in the blink of an eye. My mistake.
So first you didn't realize that I had ever flown an Arazu and now you didn't realize that I'd never have been close to your Apoc to start with?
Well, maybe it's high time you start realizin'
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Cautet
Precision Engineering
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:00:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gamesguy
Untanked ishtar has roughly 10k EHP against scorch. Who said anything about a sniper apoc? Pulse apoc/geddon/abaddon would do just fine.
And your pulse apoc is going to hit my Ishtar 240km away how?
-Liang
I didnt realize your ishtar had a magical teleportation device that teleports it 200km in the blink of an eye. My mistake.
His hypothetical ishtar is using bookmarks, just like your hypethetical falcon.
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Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:24:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Cautet
Edited by: Cautet on 28/08/2008 08:19:02
Edited by: Cautet on 28/08/2008 08:14:52
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gamesguy
Untanked ishtar has roughly 10k EHP against scorch. Who said anything about a sniper apoc? Pulse apoc/geddon/abaddon would do just fine.
And your pulse apoc is going to hit my Ishtar 240km away how?
-Liang
I didnt realize your ishtar had a magical teleportation device that teleports it 200km in the blink of an eye. My mistake.
His hypothetical ishtar is using bookmarks, just like your hypethetical falcon.
Edit: yep I can't spell
Can i just say about this whole thread that there are some seriously strange assumptions being made, and indeed in every single falcon thread I have read this is the case. Most of these are made by people who know better and just want to make falcons seem more powerfull than they are.
A. 5 falcons are subject to overlap. 10 falcons even more. It's not like with dps where you can add the dps of one ship to another ship (even that is sketchy because dps is theoretical).
B. Ranged ships are hard to kill without using ranged ships and/or bookmarks OR warpins/warpouts. There are a whole host of ranged ships and they have uses above and beyond anti-falcon use. In particular Zealot, Eagle, Munim, Ferox, arazu, lachesis, caracal, moa, cerb, plus of course the sniper bs, and the many I have missed. These ranged ships can kill other ranged ships including the falcon. In fact the falcon has less tank than almost any other ranged ship. You could also set setry drones up (I really have no experience of sentry drones or drone links so I won't go into it).
C. ECCM does what it says on the tin. Yes you have to give a slot up for it and yes it makes you much harder to jam.
D. Close range BS remote repping are very powerfull. But a remote rep gang is not a balanced gang. In fact they are a deliberately unbalanced gang; they gain the ability to take and dish out vast amounts of damage for weakness to ANY ranged ships. On top of this they are vulnerable to ecm preventing the repping. This does not mean ranged ships or ecm is unbalanced, it means you take the decision to play rock you better watch out for paper.
E. If you opponent has multiple bookmarks and/or organised warpins then he has a tactical advantage.
F. Grid size limits the distance of engagement. On some grids you will be lucky to get 180km out, on some you can happily engage from 230km. Many grids limit the number of possible locations a sniper or falcon can be at and/or the range they can be at.
Tl;dr
Rock beats sissors but loses to paper then comes on forum and whines. Paper gets nerfed and comes on forum to whine about sissors. Sissors whines about both rock and paper and pulls stats out of his anus.
Than my hypotetical avatar DD both to the hell, than i would ganked by a hypotetical dreadblob and .........
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venus divine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 08:28:00 -
[145]
B) All ships u mentioned never get optimal+falloff of their primary weapons/EW up to 150km, and most falcons i've seen operate at 170-200km range..
Except sniper BSs, u dont have any ship that can two or three volley stupid falcon. Every smart falcon will jamm those ships first.
And while we are at it: Unless u have your gang nanoed so they can ALL approach this falcon very fast, u cannot catch falcon, unless u bring cloacked arazu in 50km range of that falcon. But what is chance of having same set of bookmarks?
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2008.08.28 09:06:00 -
[146]
imho, eccm is ok'ish
what i would like to see, though:
- optimal bonus half'ed on all specialized jamming boats
--- the same range bonus then given to all EW ships (and no, neuts are not EW)
- heat damage on mid-slot eccm (significantly) reduced
- low-slot ECCMs could do with +72% (up from +48%) best named / T2. iow x1.5 across the board
- remote eccm: optimal increased, add heat or at least make them more powerful than overloading local eccm.
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 09:36:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gamesguy
I didnt realize your ishtar had a magical teleportation device that teleports it 200km in the blink of an eye. My mistake.
So first you didn't realize that I had ever flown an Arazu and now you didn't realize that I'd never have been close to your Apoc to start with?
Well, maybe it's high time you start realizin'
-Liang
Nice dodge, concession accepted that damps are useless against a falcon 200km away.
What you're going to use a BM for your ishtar? Assuming you dont land in opposite direction from the falcon, say 200km away. Your ishtar fit will take probably 100seconds to cover that distance, being generous here(nano nerf remember?). 100 seconds of you not doing anything useful and the falcon jamming your gang.
A great counter indeed. I have a better counter, its called bring your own falcon.
Oh and I KNOW your arazu didnt contribute to that falcon kill, because he would've just warped if he could've, last I checked you don't have 200km warp scrams and damps didnt warp scramble anyone.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.28 15:50:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Nice dodge, concession accepted that damps are useless against a falcon 200km away.
Nice dodge, but concession accepted that jammers are useless above if the Arazu gets in range. The thing about it is, if I get into range:
- He locks first: He jams me and warps away
- I lock first: He dies.
Quote:
What you're going to use a BM for your ishtar? Assuming you dont land in opposite direction from the falcon, say 200km away. Your ishtar fit will take probably 100seconds to cover that distance, being generous here(nano nerf remember?). 100 seconds of you not doing anything useful and the falcon jamming your gang.
My Ishtar fit (right now, which is what's important) would take ~50 seconds to cover the ground. If the Falcon doesn't bugger out, he dies. If the Falcon's much closer, you know, incase he doesn't have every safespot and gate and planet and moon and station bookmarked with sniper spots, he'll have much less time to respond to the threat.
Quote:
A great counter indeed. I have a better counter, its called bring your own falcon.
So wait, because it doesn't work 100% of the time it's not a viable counter? I've got a better counter to your counter: I jam you first with my two caldari racials and your counter doesn't work 100% of the time either.
whoops.
Quote:
Oh and I KNOW your arazu didnt contribute to that falcon kill, because he would've just warped if he could've, last I checked you don't have 200km warp scrams and damps didnt warp scramble anyone.
Actually, IIRC, it was "my" kill. I scored the damp+tackle and warped the gang in on top of him. We needed to do it quickly because there were 20+ sniper battleships 200km off. ;-)
TBH Gamesguy, just because you don't know how to use an Arazu doesn't mean that I don't. Oh, and I do want ECCM changed. I just think people are throwing a fit because they're too damn lazy to fit and bring counters.
No ewar is 100% stopped by fitting its counter (not even damps which far and away come the closest to being totally countered).
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:00:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
TBH Gamesguy, just because you don't know how to use an Arazu doesn't mean that I don't. Oh, and I do want ECCM changed. I just think people are throwing a fit because they're too damn lazy to fit and bring counters.
No ewar is 100% stopped by fitting its counter (not even damps which far and away come the closest to being totally countered).
-Liang
Theres only one problem with eccm..The mechanics of ecm countering work fine..
The real problem as i see it, is this:
Virtually no ship can afford to free a mid or a low without gimping thier setup. (one exception is probly the cerb) E.G. A sniper ferox, eagle or a nighthawk, sniper bs etc use all their mids either for tank or tracking computers/sensor boosters etc, gimping one setup for a chance occurance of being jammed is quite a harsh trade off imo..
poudly annoying fc's since 2007
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: Hello and w
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners...*goes back to reading*
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.29 08:07:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 29/08/2008 08:09:08
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Nice dodge, but concession accepted that jammers are useless above if the Arazu gets in range. The thing about it is, if I get into range:
- He locks first: He jams me and warps away
- I lock first: He dies.
How in the **** are you going to damp something 200km away? Answer me that. And how does locking all of a sudden make the falcon magically explode? Last I checked you have to get into warp scram range for that.
Quote:
My Ishtar fit (right now, which is what's important) would take ~50 seconds to cover the ground. If the Falcon doesn't bugger out, he dies. If the Falcon's much closer, you know, incase he doesn't have every safespot and gate and planet and moon and station bookmarked with sniper spots, he'll have much less time to respond to the threat.
If we're going to play that game, rapier webs your ishtar, you die in 10 seconds since you have no buffer at all. So much for your "counter". You might as well have listed a tach apoc with 2 eccm as a counter, would work better than your worthless nano-ishtar that dies to a solo ranis.
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So wait, because it doesn't work 100% of the time it's not a viable counter? I've got a better counter to your counter: I jam you first with my two caldari racials and your counter doesn't work 100% of the time either.
whoops.
Its a shitty counter, thats why its not valid. Using a unbuffered nano-ishtar to counter a falcon? Thats just ******ed. You'd be better off with a snipe bs thant he ishtar.
Also, how is your ishtar/arazu in any way a better counter than a falcon with 2x caldari racials and 2 sensor boosters? If I tailor a falcon to specifically counter another one it will be far more effective than your ishtar or arazu, plus it can actually jam other people, unlike your "counters", which explode if something sneezes at them.
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Actually, IIRC, it was "my" kill. I scored the damp+tackle and warped the gang in on top of him. We needed to do it quickly because there were 20+ sniper battleships 200km off. ;-)
TBH Gamesguy, just because you don't know how to use an Arazu doesn't mean that I don't. Oh, and I do want ECCM changed. I just think people are throwing a fit because they're too damn lazy to fit and bring counters.
No ewar is 100% stopped by fitting its counter (not even damps which far and away come the closest to being totally countered).
-Liang
Yes so this falcon sat there while you mwed 150km to get within tackle range. Then your arazu couldve been replaced by a snipe bs because the falcon pilot is obviously ******ed.
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