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SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:03:00 - [61] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 23/08/2008 16:05:02 Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 23/08/2008 16:03:11 Originally by: Stevens Using an alt cuts your profit rate in half because you are using two characters. False. Working with a partner does this. Doing it with a throwaway alt does not, as... A: It's unlikely that you're going to "pay" them B: Even if you were, their contribution of a few minutes relative to several hours worth of income producing activity will come out to a very slim portion of the money yielded - not half. I can very easily scout myself out to a decent ratting spot in 0.0 and toss the alt in a matter of minutes. I can then rat with impunity for days or weeks, and scout myself back in. They did not earn "half" by any means. Quote: You also have to account for the time spent securing the space by yourself and others, the ships lost by yourself protecting the space, and several other things. Only applicable for residents who are actually bothering to secure space. Quote: As for moon mining only the highest end minerals are the isk fountains you make them out to be and no single player controls them. While it's true that no single player controls them, you're opting to ignore that they still individually benefit from them. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:06:00 - [62] Excellent post. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:12:00 - [63] Profits don't have to be divided amongst alts. I have alts who receive all the money they will ever need, who have all the skills I'm ever going to train them with. They are for utility (salvaging or mining, for instance) and little else. A player running dual boxes does NOT have to split his wages amongst the accounts. That math only works if your getting help from another player altogether. Hell, using an alt to scout is WAY cheaper. If they pop, respawn them in a starter ship and do it again. You lose no money that way. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:16:00 - [64] OP should go kill some helpless ducks or other living beings and then come back and complain about being ganked by pirates in an mmorpg again. Its just too damn funny. How do you think those animals feel when you "pwn" them in your gatecamp where they have nothing not even sentries on their side? diaf tbh.
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:22:00 - [65] Edited by: Joar Mendar on 23/08/2008 16:22:06 Originally by: Myra2007 OP should go kill some helpless ducks or other living beings and then come back and complain about being ganked by pirates in an mmorpg again. Its just too damn funny. How do you think those animals feel when you "pwn" them in your gatecamp where they have nothing not even sentries on their side? diaf tbh. This.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:26:00 - [66] You are both vegans I presume?
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:31:00 - [67] I am, I can't speak for Myra... Why?
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:33:00 - [68] Sad, sad analogies ... I love to hunt. Only hunt what I will eat, but it's better than buying it from a supermarket. Truth be told, vegans aren't bad, on the whole. But a hardcore vegan is as unnatural as mass-processed chickens. Life is brutal, kill or be killed. Human beings are the one's distorting it, and 'animal conservationists' who refuse to accept that eating meat for food is an acceptable means of living are on the opposing end of extremist craziness. All animals are predators, and all animals are prey. Hell, some plants are predators, and if you've ever seen how a pine tree kills off everything around it, you know that they can be ruthless, too (just takes longer). In EvE, your either a predator, or prey. But there's a thin line, like rhino's and Ruzes. Creatures that are willing to go about and mind their own business, until you threaten me or hurt someone. Then you get my horn. All of it. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Joar Mendar I am, I can't speak for Myra... Why? You have that smug sense of self-satisfaction over you. Common among vegans. Comes from not finishing your sausages.
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:43:00 - [70] Originally by: Ruze Sad, sad analogies ... I love to hunt. Only hunt what I will eat, but it's better than buying it from a supermarket. Truth be told, vegans aren't bad, on the whole. But a hardcore vegan is as unnatural as mass-processed chickens. Life is brutal, kill or be killed. Human beings are the one's distorting it, and 'animal conservationists' who refuse to accept that eating meat for food is an acceptable means of living are on the opposing end of extremist craziness. All animals are predators, and all animals are prey. Hell, some plants are predators, and if you've ever seen how a pine tree kills off everything around it, you know that they can be ruthless, too (just takes longer). This is.. so very very misguided. I don't think there are many vegans who object to eating meat as "unnatural" (although modern farming methods certainly are so). The objection is based on the grounds that a) animals are capable of suffering, and b) eating meat is not necessary. The idea that it is okay to kill another sentient creature just to satisfy your palatte is, quite frankly, disgusting.
Xevan Templar 7th Batavian Squadron	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:45:00 - [71] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Fixed that for you. Try reading the "Why we need a SIGNIFICANT nerf on highsec mission running" thread again and see what some of the people have said, Malcanis of exceed for example seems to understand the situation well. I really don't think we needed yet another thread on this, you even said yourself you don't think most people will bother reading it all. I will explain why another thread 'is needed'. Just look at the title : Why we need* a SIGNIFICANT nerf on highsec mission running * It's not the start of a conversation. Hell it even excludes any type of conversation. I'm going to be blunt here but what it reads is: * My personal opinion as OP is that I personaly think that highsec mission should be nerfed * There is no discussion, he is just stating his personal opinion. And while that is fine, the simple use of the words 'need' and 'nerf' lockes the entire thread down for a decend discussion. All you get is a group of people that aske for a nerf, a group that that is totaly fine with it, and a group who doesn't give a **** and think everybody on the entire forum must be some pro-whiner by now.
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:46:00 - [72] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Joar Mendar I am, I can't speak for Myra... Why? You have that smug sense of self-satisfaction over you. Common among vegans. Comes from not finishing your sausages. Hmm.. the belief that murder is immoral makes me smug?
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.23 17:01:00 - [73] There's a difference between 'killing' and 'murder'. Go out and shoot every pidgeon in the parking lot, that's murder. Me hunting, because meat is a natural part of my diet, that's killing. I eat what I kill. At least I have the decency to respect the nature of life in that regard. Not all vegans are bad. I agree. Not even 'most'. There are just extremists who make the rest look bad. Being a vegetarian is a life choice, and it's moderatly healthy (though in nature, herbiavors have a tendency to be much larger and stockier than carnivors or omniviors, so it's not a tried and true method of being 'skinny', if that's the person's goal). But part of life is death. It's completely natural. We all die, there's no preventing it. Every plant dies, every animal dies, every human and bug and virus. And each of these consumes. Consuming a plant is no better than consuming an animal or another human. And the scientific fact of it is, the human body has to go through monumental changes in order to substitute every nutrient that meat provides. Whether you take them in vitamins or in supliments to the food you eat, you still have to take them, or you'll see severe health side effects. Obviously, we see life 'differently.' Happens. But calling me a murderer don't make it so. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 17:06:00 - [74] Originally by: Ruze There's a difference between 'killing' and 'murder'. Go out and shoot every pidgeon in the parking lot, that's murder. Me hunting, because meat is a natural part of my diet, that's killing. I eat what I kill. At least I have the decency to respect the nature of life in that regard. Not all vegans are bad. I agree. Not even 'most'. There are just extremists who make the rest look bad. Being a vegetarian is a life choice, and it's moderatly healthy (though in nature, herbiavors have a tendency to be much larger and stockier than carnivors or omniviors, so it's not a tried and true method of being 'skinny', if that's the person's goal). But part of life is death. It's completely natural. We all die, there's no preventing it. Every plant dies, every animal dies, every human and bug and virus. And each of these consumes. Consuming a plant is no better than consuming an animal or another human. And the scientific fact of it is, the human body has to go through monumental changes in order to substitute every nutrient that meat provides. Whether you take them in vitamins or in supliments to the food you eat, you still have to take them, or you'll see severe health side effects. Obviously, we see life 'differently.' Happens. But calling me a murderer don't make it so. So me killing you would be okay... as long as I eat you afterwards? What?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.23 17:15:00 - [75] Originally by: Joar Mendar So me killing you would be okay... as long as I eat you afterwards? What? Only on Eve-O General could a discussion about lowsec, piracy, and risk/reward turn into a debate about vegan opinions and shooting pigeons in parking lots. Keep it up guys. This is going places! Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.23 17:48:00 - [76] Originally by: Ruze I love to hunt. Only hunt what I will eat, but it's better than buying it from a supermarket. And you certainly do not like hunting or the kill! You do it only because buying it from the supermarket would be hypocritical, right? Seriously... Originally by: Ruze All animals are predators, and all animals are prey. Hell, some plants are predators, and if you've ever seen how a pine tree kills off everything around it, you know that they can be ruthless, too (just takes longer). The only difference is they do not have a choice. But yes killing is integral part of nature and i do not question that. Originally by: Ruze In EvE, your either a predator, or prey. But there's a thin line, like rhino's and Ruzes. Creatures that are willing to go about and mind their own business, until you threaten me or hurt someone. Then you get my horn. All of it. Point is if you do not have a problem with killing living, breathing, feeling creatures although you do not need to kill them to survive then why should we pity you when you get killed in a game of spaceships? Thats the hypocrisy i was pointing out and my point still stands. And the analogy is very fitting. OP complains people just get nuked at gatecamps without any chance to help them. (which isn't even true because unlike your dear friend donald the duck in eve you can bring friends or gasp even prepare yourself for whats coming or just stay in hisec if you don't like to get shot at) So i ask him: Why then doesn't he give the animals a chance to defend against him? Would make it all so much more sporting wouldn't it? Maybe he should go and hunt some lions with a kitchen knife? That would be fun, eh? The way it is he gets ganked in eve just like he ganks animals in real life. Its a fact like it or not. Only three important differences: - unlike the animals he kills which lose their life he only loses some pixels - unlike the animals he kills he is at a level playing field; can use all tools that his aggressors do - unlike the animals he kills he agreed to pvp by undocking I am far from militant as far as vegans go. But if you cannot see how this is somewhat ironic i pity you. But i can't help it.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:09:00 - [77] Originally by: Joar Mendar Hmm.. the belief that murder is immoral makes me smug? No, the belief that eating meat is murder makes you self-righteous. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:11:00 - [78] Originally by: Myra2007 Point is if you do not have a problem with killing living, breathing, feeling creatures although you do not need to kill them to survive then why should we pity you when you get killed in a game of spaceships? Thats the hypocrisy i was pointing out and my point still stands. You seem to have mistaken me for a gankee. File me under "ganker", for future reference. Quote: And the analogy is very fitting. OP complains people just get nuked at gatecamps without any chance to help them. (which isn't even true because unlike your dear friend donald the duck in eve you can bring friends or gasp even prepare yourself for whats coming or just stay in hisec if you don't like to get shot at) Illustrating that certain tactics are less than self-sustaining != complaining. I don't personally get caught in gate camps because I generally fly small, fast ships, or scout if I need something heavier. The post was directed towards the subset of whiners who both engage in those activities and simultaneously think it's somehow gamebreaking that people don't venture into low-sec more often. I acknowledge that this is not the entire population of people who think missions should be nerfed, but it IS a portion of them, and anyone pretending otherwise is being wholly disingenuous. In short: --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:27:00 - [79] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Joar Mendar Hmm.. the belief that murder is immoral makes me smug? No, the belief that eating meat is murder makes you self-righteous. Wait, so we can now obtain meat WITHOUT killing animals? I must be really behind the times. Anyway, my initial problem in this thread was with the fact that the OP is a hunter. I don't really know why the discussion was moved on to meat-eating...
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:32:00 - [80] Originally by: Joar Mendar Wait, so we can now obtain meat WITHOUT killing animals? I must be really behind the times. To me, murder means killing another human. Killing an animal is killing an animal. Here's where your self-righteousness play in. Originally by: Joar Mendar Anyway, my initial problem in this thread was with the fact that the OP is a hunter. I don't really know why the discussion was moved on to meat-eating... Because you started bashing the OP about his hunting habits. The OP should be bashed for his stupid post. Not for being a hunter. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:44:00 - [81] Edited by: Joar Mendar on 23/08/2008 18:46:07 Edited by: Joar Mendar on 23/08/2008 18:44:59 Edited by: Joar Mendar on 23/08/2008 18:44:41 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Joar Mendar Wait, so we can now obtain meat WITHOUT killing animals? I must be really behind the times. To me, murder means killing another human. Killing an animal is killing an animal. Here's where your self-righteousness play in. So your definition is the only valid one, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with killing a non-human sentient creature. Yeah, you're not self-righteous at all. That's exactly the same kind of attitude as the people who said, a century ago, that there was nothing wrong with killing a non-caucasian sentient creature. Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Joar Mendar Anyway, my initial problem in this thread was with the fact that the OP is a hunter. I don't really know why the discussion was moved on to meat-eating... Because you started bashing the OP about his hunting habits. The OP should be bashed for his stupid post. Not for being a hunter. I reserve the right to bash the OP for whatever appalling activities he engages in. Whether it be stupid forum-posting or senseless killing.
Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:50:00 - [82] LOL, the PETA website is that way, buddy. I go there often to add delicious tears to my bacon swiss cheeseburgers covered in sauteed onions, garlic, mushrooms, and tons of barbecue sauce. I would enjoy as many contributions as possible. _
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:53:00 - [83] Originally by: Joar Mendar So your definition is the only valid one, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with killing a non-human sentient creature. Yeah, you're not self-righteous at all. My self-righteousness is well deserved. If pigs rise to rule the world one day I'll come tell you that you had a point. As it is now, it's me and my spieces that have the guns. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:00:00 - [84] Originally by: Ki An My self-righteousness is well deserved. If pigs rise to rule the world one day I'll come tell you that you had a point. As it is now, it's me and my spieces that have the guns. So might makes right huh? My, what a morally enlightened view you have.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:05:00 - [85] Originally by: Joar Mendar Originally by: Ki An My self-righteousness is well deserved. If pigs rise to rule the world one day I'll come tell you that you had a point. As it is now, it's me and my spieces that have the guns. So might makes right huh? My, what a morally enlightened view you have. Enlightened enough to keep the pig on my plate instead of me on his. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Joar Mendar Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:07:00 - [86] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Joar Mendar Originally by: Ki An My self-righteousness is well deserved. If pigs rise to rule the world one day I'll come tell you that you had a point. As it is now, it's me and my spieces that have the guns. So might makes right huh? My, what a morally enlightened view you have. Enlightened enough to keep the pig on my plate instead of me on his. ...What?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:08:00 - [87] Originally by: Joar Mendar Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Joar Mendar Originally by: Ki An My self-righteousness is well deserved. If pigs rise to rule the world one day I'll come tell you that you had a point. As it is now, it's me and my spieces that have the guns. So might makes right huh? My, what a morally enlightened view you have. Enlightened enough to keep the pig on my plate instead of me on his. ...What? What? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Lividicus Caldari Villains By Necessity	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:10:00 - [88] Originally by: Kwedaras Originally by: Lividicus Edited by: Lividicus on 23/08/2008 03:51:02 There is a lot of truth in that post. Coming from someone who has a POS in low sec, and attempts to do exploration in low sec from time to time, only to lose whatever ship i try to get out there... ( i have never successfully returned from low sec exploration alive. Today as a matter of fact I scouted for a couple hours and scanned down a plex in 0.2, went and got a spare raven and fitted it for the plex, went 16 jumps of warping 0 down there, only to hit a pirate hictor camp 1 jump away and get completely smashed, risk v reward can only be discussed when the risk isnt CERTAIN HORRIBLE FIERY DEATH ) I realize now that until i can get a large fleet to warp around with (and split loot with) or some volunteer to scout for me everywhere i go (sounds fun!) I cant spend a lot of time in low security space. Edit: please note that i did scout the path there and found no camps on the way to get the raven, also that i took the extra precaution of nano and stabbing the raven in an effort to be safer and planned to refit at my destination, there is nothing more other than not going to lowsec i could have done on my own to prevent what happened. Thats is not a scouting like you describe. You could prevent it by many ways, like using other fit (mwd + some overdrives and mwd away for example or use heavy neuts), using an alt to fly in front of you, using jammers. hell, you could even use your pve fit, you could kill a single hic under sentry fire fyi. It was a hictor and 9 BS... I was sensor damped so badly i didnt land a target before i was down.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:13:00 - [89] Originally by: Lividicus Originally by: Kwedaras Originally by: Lividicus Edited by: Lividicus on 23/08/2008 03:51:02 There is a lot of truth in that post. Coming from someone who has a POS in low sec, and attempts to do exploration in low sec from time to time, only to lose whatever ship i try to get out there... ( i have never successfully returned from low sec exploration alive. Today as a matter of fact I scouted for a couple hours and scanned down a plex in 0.2, went and got a spare raven and fitted it for the plex, went 16 jumps of warping 0 down there, only to hit a pirate hictor camp 1 jump away and get completely smashed, risk v reward can only be discussed when the risk isnt CERTAIN HORRIBLE FIERY DEATH ) I realize now that until i can get a large fleet to warp around with (and split loot with) or some volunteer to scout for me everywhere i go (sounds fun!) I cant spend a lot of time in low security space. Edit: please note that i did scout the path there and found no camps on the way to get the raven, also that i took the extra precaution of nano and stabbing the raven in an effort to be safer and planned to refit at my destination, there is nothing more other than not going to lowsec i could have done on my own to prevent what happened. Thats is not a scouting like you describe. You could prevent it by many ways, like using other fit (mwd + some overdrives and mwd away for example or use heavy neuts), using an alt to fly in front of you, using jammers. hell, you could even use your pve fit, you could kill a single hic under sentry fire fyi. It was a hictor and 9 BS... I was sensor damped so badly i didnt land a target before i was down. You're in a corp and not 1 guy in it would spare half an hour to shuttle-scout your BS through low-sec? I mean top marks for scouting out the route and all that, that was a good plan, but a lot can change in the time it takes to make an 18-jump round trip. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:14:00 - [90] Originally by: Ki An What? Ki An, snap out of it! There is no use, just keep these vegan facts in mind while you eat a burger: a) You can't reason with them. b) It's their problem, not yours. c) They have too little protein in their diet to pose a serious threat. d) You will die a happy man who has experienced what the world has to offer. _

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